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NEED TO INTRODUCE DUNGEONS OR RAIDS INTO THE GAME!


KingReven

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1 hour ago, Aesthier said:

How about people stop living in denial and requesting changes based upon something warframe "isn't".

Warframe is a bit of everything though. We’re now space pirate ship fighting sims also a mech game with a hint of open world exploration? What’s next???? an in game turn based card mini game (actually that could be a way to earn conclave standing) 

 

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5 minutes ago, (PSN)sweatshawp said:

Warframe is a bit of everything though. We’re now space pirate ship fighting sims also a mech game with a hint of open world exploration? What’s next???? an in game turn based card mini game (actually that could be a way to earn conclave standing) 

 

They tried it, and it failed miserably due to host migrations, pings, and other assorted things.

I would much rather let Warframe be Warframe and let it be enjoyed (or hated) on it's own merits than trying to make it into everything else.

 

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2 hours ago, Aesthier said:

They tried it, and it failed miserably due to host migrations, pings, and other assorted things.

I would much rather let Warframe be Warframe and let it be enjoyed (or hated) on it's own merits than trying to make it into everything else.

 

The thing is warframe is all of that and then some again. 

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3 minutes ago, (PSN)sweatshawp said:

The thing is warframe is all of that and then some again. 

Indeed. I don't see Railjack, open worlds and the like as being entirely separate things from the base gameplay. I see them as new ways to frame that gameplay.

It's the same highly-mobile melee/ranged/powers mix we've been playing since Natah, but in a new context.

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18 minutes ago, Corvid said:

Indeed. I don't see Railjack, open worlds and the like as being entirely separate things from the base gameplay. I see them as new ways to frame that gameplay.

It's the same highly-mobile melee/ranged/powers mix we've been playing since Natah, but in a new context.

Ehhh not really but I can’t say it’s not warframe it’s just not high mobility classic warframe. Railjack is slower mechs are slower open worlds are... a mess but it’s still warframe nonetheless like it or not 

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2 minutes ago, (PSN)sweatshawp said:

Railjack is slower

Debatable. I wouldn't call something that can surge several kilometres in the span of a few seconds "slow". Pre-Revised, I might have agreed with you, but not now.

3 minutes ago, (PSN)sweatshawp said:

mechs are slower

Highly debatable. man so slow amiright? - GIF - Imgur

9 minutes ago, (PSN)sweatshawp said:

open worlds are... a mess

Bear in mind that I'm referring to the moment-to-moment gameplay here. I'm not commenting on the systems around it.

3 minutes ago, (PSN)sweatshawp said:

it’s just not high mobility classic warframe

"Classic" Warframe was much slower, and mobility was much more limited.

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1 hour ago, (PSN)sweatshawp said:

The thing is warframe is all of that and then some again. 

 

That doesn't mean it "NEEDS RAIDS" in fact I would say it needs to link together what it has more than it needs to waste time on a function that it has proven it doesn't have the resources to ensure stability for.

 

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1 hour ago, Aesthier said:

 

That doesn't mean it "NEEDS RAIDS" in fact I would say it needs to link together what it has more than it needs to waste time on a function that it has proven it doesn't have the resources to ensure stability for.

 

I never said it needs raids like such in the title or whatever my

main argument is the option of bringing hem back as an alternative to get arcanes or such. That way if you don’t like raid Esque content you still don’t have to do such but the option is there for other layers. 

Also it was never a resource thing with raids as everyone else has been saying it was more so them letting go of the one person ( why have one sole dev on something like that) that worked on said content. As I’ve also stated warframe has proven to be able to create raid Esque content given orb mother and the nightwave infested boss event or whatever it was and much more.  Warframe dosent need a lot of things were just speaking on what we’d like to see here

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1 hour ago, Corvid said:

Debatable. I wouldn't call something that can surge several kilometres in the span of a few seconds "slow". Pre-Revised, I might have agreed with you, but not now.

Highly debatable. man so slow amiright? - GIF - Imgur

Bear in mind that I'm referring to the moment-to-moment gameplay here. I'm not commenting on the systems around it.

"Classic" Warframe was much slower, and mobility was much more limited.

Compared to what wf usually is which is a smooth based parkour action shooter yes. In theory as long as ash has some sort of sight on you he can teleport to you for example meaning if ash can spot a glimpse of you thousands of kilometers away he can do the same technically. Canonically revenant is just as fast in cloud form. Vault and gauss are as well.

same thing as above about the smooth movement and nice flowing combat. Mechs look move and move clunky while the controls I’ve heard to be solid.

even then the moment to moment gameplay is halted per event drastically in between things in the open world where a wf mission is usually a flow of constant action (usually unless your playing something like spy)

im refering  to the base game as classic not when we had stamina and could tonkor jump 

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We need a rogue like mode

We start at 8 player max and it goes until the lastbone die or give up

With giid rewards ofc

 

Rewards are the main issue in wf

 

We need some hard mode with guaranted cool reward (rare ressources packs, pre-built forma, 10 000 kuva , maxed out arcanes , stuff like that)

 

No cosmétik

 

Why not a dungeon alla Warhammer 40k playing only nechramech or wut not

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33 minutes ago, (PSN)sweatshawp said:

meaning if ash can spot a glimpse of you thousands of kilometers away he can do the same technically.

Nope. His maximum range is 60 metres at base.

Plus LoS restrictions matter anyway, since good map design doesn't let LoS be huge except in particular circumstances for just this reason (otherwise camping would be even easier than it already is). Space combat has different concerns.

Besides, whilst it's not my playstyle, nothing's prevents the player from using Archwings in Railjack modes, which has traditional Tenno agility. It's weaker, but that's the trade-off. 

44 minutes ago, (PSN)sweatshawp said:

same thing as above about the smooth movement and nice flowing combat. Mechs look move and move clunky while the controls I’ve heard to be solid.

To some degree. But that's frankly not a negative - Mechs by most accounts, aren't a replacement for Warframes. They're an alternate tool in your arsenal that (in theory) trades off agility for power.

This doesn't come off in practice because we're OP as hell already, but... that's also another reason Raids would have a problem. We're OP as hell so the whole 'challenging peak of PvE design' aspect would be pretty much null and void.

48 minutes ago, (PSN)sweatshawp said:

even then the moment to moment gameplay is halted per event drastically in between things in the open world where a wf mission is usually a flow of constant action (usually unless your playing something like spy)

If you're not jumping around dodging and getting good angles on incoming enemies, then one of two things would be the case:

1: You are choosing not to do that because you're unaware of the potential benefits. Which I doubt, as I try to have more faith in people.

2: Because we're so bustedly overpowered that no reason to exists. In a world where everything dies or is in complete stasis whenever you please, you don't need to dodge anything. Artificially creating an environment of stop-and-go gameplay. 

 

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54 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

Nope. His maximum range is 60 metres at base.

Plus LoS restrictions matter anyway, since good map design doesn't let LoS be huge except in particular circumstances for just this reason (otherwise camping would be even easier than it already is). Space combat has different concerns.

Besides, whilst it's not my playstyle, nothing's prevents the player from using Archwings in Railjack modes, which has traditional Tenno agility. It's weaker, but that's the trade-off. 

To some degree. But that's frankly not a negative - Mechs by most accounts, aren't a replacement for Warframes. They're an alternate tool in your arsenal that (in theory) trades off agility for power.

This doesn't come off in practice because we're OP as hell already, but... that's also another reason Raids would have a problem. We're OP as hell so the whole 'challenging peak of PvE design' aspect would be pretty much null and void.

If you're not jumping around dodging and getting good angles on incoming enemies, then one of two things would be the case:

1: You are choosing not to do that because you're unaware of the potential benefits. Which I doubt, as I try to have more faith in people.

2: Because we're so bustedly overpowered that no reason to exists. In a world where everything dies or is in complete stasis whenever you please, you don't need to dodge anything. Artificially creating an environment of stop-and-go gameplay. 

 

60 meters is for the non ash mains. Once you become one with ash and surpass over 800- hours you learn a cheeky exploit that makes his range almost limitless 

 

a focus school can also pretty much negate los.

while archwing has gotten better it’s still not fluid and as smooth as on the ground gameplay.

 

i never said it was a bad thing and I understand the tradeoff it’s jsut not as fluid and fast movement wise is what I was saying.

 

also check my thread history I’ve been begging for balance for 2+ years now.  I am sadly aware that we need Balance in warframe. It’s never going to happen however. 

 

1. When I play everything is usually gone in 10 seconds or less so it’s little to jump around and avoid or slaughter anymore.

2. Which is another topic of balance that Idk if thenforums are ready for

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2 hours ago, Tsoe said:

We need a rogue like mode

We start at 8 player max and it goes until the lastbone die or give up

 

That sounds like a Battle Royale mode, not a rogue-like.  There's a difference, but someone who cares more about PVP than I do will have to explain it.  I'm not going to do so, because I'm tired of someone ignoring the point to pick the nit.

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26 minutes ago, (PSN)sweatshawp said:

60 meters is for the non ash mains. Once you become one with ash and surpass over 800- hours you learn a cheeky exploit that makes his range almost limitless 

 

Much as how having enough hours on spy causes certain pieces of map geometry to shrink, allowing you to hide invisibly in improbable places?

37 minutes ago, (PSN)sweatshawp said:

i never said it was a bad thing and I understand the tradeoff it’s jsut not as fluid and fast movement wise is what I was saying.

 

also check my thread history I’ve been begging for balance for 2+ years now.  I am sadly aware that we need Balance in warframe. It’s never going to happen however. 

 

1. When I play everything is usually gone in 10 seconds or less so it’s little to jump around and avoid or slaughter anymore.

2. Which is another topic of balance that Idk if thenforums are ready for

Perhaps.

But at the end of the day, Balance is a prerequisite to a lot of content players seem to want, yet at least the vocal part seems vehemently opposed to balance. 

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3 hours ago, Loza03 said:

Perhaps.

But at the end of the day, Balance is a prerequisite to a lot of content players seem to want, yet at least the vocal part seems vehemently opposed to balance. 

Here’s a question maybe I’m just too dumb to understand. The lack of balance in this game always seems to be blamed on our absurd level of power and the massive gap from the high end to the low end.

So my question is why can’t all “endgame” content just be balanced around the high end of player power? If you’ve reached “endgame” you should have at least most of the good mods by then. So basically if you want to do the hardest content then you have to have the best gear. What’s wrong with that?

 

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Just now, (PSN)Wil_Shatner_face said:

Here’s a question maybe I’m just too dumb to understand. The lack of balance in this game always seems to be blamed on our absurd level of power and the massive gap from the high end to the low end.

So my question is why can’t all “endgame” content just be balanced around the high end of player power? If you’ve reached “endgame” you should have at least most of the good mods by then. So basically if you want to do the hardest content then you have to have the best gear. What’s wrong with that?

 

There's a bunch of foundational issues, so lets go down the list.

First, there's what the power we have looks like. Specifically, some of the most powerful frames have very direct, very directly powerful abilities that either scale, have an extremely high base power level, or are level-divorced (i.e. they affect enemies no matter how strong they are). And this wouldn't be a problem, but there's the other side of the coin - we also have a ton of powers which aren't like that. For every Maim, there's a Mach Rush. For every Spores, there's a Shock. One camp is best suited for circumstances with highly limited energy supplies. If you have the ability to shut down everything in a 20 metre radius whilst being immune to damage to everything that isn't, there's very little that anything can do against that - and the means to balance that power is to have you be unable to do it all the time. But when you have the ability to effectively just run fast? Well, there's really little reason to harshly limit that - depending on the context of the game, but Warframe IS a power fantasy. They'd be unbalanced in the other direction if they weren't frequently available.

This is already pretty hard to juggle, but it's possible. But then we have the modern energy system. Well, I say modern - to my knowledge, nothing about it has fundamentally changed since the game was first launched. Y'know, when it looked like this:

Spoiler

 

And even having powers was entirely optional. Energy is our stop-gap. These hugely influential abilities were designed with a restrictive energy economy in mind. That's not even just a theory, Steve himself has said as such:

Quote

Our ‘press 4 to win’ ultimates are metered primarily by the supply of energy. Finding an energy loophole means that Homer’s drinking bird can play the game for you. That is not team synergy. That is just broken.

This is from waaaaay back from one of Warframe's earliest controversies - Vivergate. Before my time. Although the core of the issue hasn't changed, only back then it was due to an exploit. Since then, with more complex powers or frames that require a little more individual attention to be powerful - think how much Protea needs to keep an eye on her ability timers and how much energy she spends - energy has had to go up. But those press 4 to win ultimates, well, those are still around. 

So you have one camp of powers that are designed to be spammed or used together in combos. And another camp of incredibly impactful powers designed to be used somewhat sparsely. Design for the former by offering a loose energy economy, and you have where we are now - there's these frames who have abilities that can solve almost every concievable problem with almost no input from the player. Design for the other, you invalidate a huge chunk of the frames who now have huge chunks of what's appealing ripped out.

 

 

This isn't the only issue. Effective health pools are too. Enemies and players. Keeping on topic for players, consider just how different two frame builds EHP can be. An Inaros, or a Chroma or whatever, they can have hundreds of thousands of effective hit points - AKA, how much damage they can take after factoring in damage reduction from armour, adaptation, etc. Another equally end game build for Limbo, or Loki or whatever, that could have maybe a couple thousand effective hit points? Even sacrificing some of their caster potential for added bulk (and, mind you, I have on my personal builds), we're still talking in the ballpark of 10K EHP And sure, yes, they absolutely shouldn't be as tanky as a proper tank frame. But ask yourself - what's a fair amount of damage for an enemy to deal? If one part of the roster can take ten times or even a hundred times as much punishment as another, there's really no amount of damage that's reasonable. Even if you go with the average health of all loadouts as your baseline, you're probably going to be tickling some frames and bullying others into needing those above-mentioned OP powers to stay relevant. Time was, poking a toe out of stasis was a death sentence for a Limbo in 'high level' content. This problem has been made less severe since Revised (thanks to shield gating), but it's not fixed either.

Players aren't the only ones with this issue too - enemies have the same issue. Even though armour was brought down a peg in Revised and shields brought up one, there's still a good dozen pegs between them. And this presents an issue - not that one is too hard to kill or one is too easy, but that, just like with enemy damage, player damage is pretty screwy. In order to deal with armour, players have their damage scaled up appropriately, through crits and statuses, able to shred through defences of millions of EHP with nary a blink. And these enemies which have around few hundred thousand EHP because they weren't blessed with armour? Well, I'd say they're screwed, but they're not. DE tries to compensate with nullifiers, with high RoF explosive weapons or just flat-out being immune to part of the damage system. A lot of the really annoying trends in enemy design can likely be attributed to DE praying that it'll make that enemy matter (it won't). And it doesn't really help that all this power creep really doesn't help powers that were designed 7-8 years ago either. Looking at you, Shock, and your 400 base damage.

 

The theme of all this is pretty much that we're in a system without a consistent rulebook. Half the game doesn't work like the other half. We're only as powerful as we are because we're balanced precariously on a Jenga tower that looks like this:

Spoiler

Jenga with the Engineering Grads. : engineering

We have absurdly powerful abilities that either play the game for you, or might as well turn the game off that are being cast as easy as breathing. But you can't fix that without either invalidating other frames who were literally built different, or sacrificing all those frames to mediocrity because without those tools being on tap, they'll be two-tapped by enemies that are either nigh-immortal to anything without crazy amounts of power, or who part-time at the Augean stables.

 

 

THAT is Warframe's balance issue, and high level content is so hard. Either you'll invalidate it or it'll invalidate you.

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7 hours ago, (PSN)sweatshawp said:

Also it was never a resource thing with raids as everyone else has been saying

What I meant by resources was the need for a dedicated server as opposed to p2p which brought a series of problems for raid type content.

 

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1 hour ago, (PSN)Wil_Shatner_face said:

So my question is why can’t all “endgame” content just be balanced around the high end of player power?

Which part of the high end of player power do you pick? Do you balance expecting 200k DPS? 400k DPS? 1M DPS? 2M DPS? 5M DPS? Do you expect 2k EHP? 5k? 10k? Infinite? And the higher you go, the fewer ways there are to get there. You end up forcing players to abandon one of the main things Warframe is about - the customization and individuality - to cater to a small handful of viable builds and nothing else.

And it's not just endgame content that can't be balanced, no content can be balanced. The same problem happens for easy or normal-difficulty content: where do you draw the line? Player power needs to be reined in and standardized before any proper enemy or content balancing can be done, otherwise DE will put a piece of content somewhere and miss 90% of the playerbase. For all but a few, it'll either it'll be so hard that it's inaccessible or too easy that it's boring.

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10 minutes ago, Aesthier said:

What I meant by resources was the need for a dedicated server as opposed to p2p which brought a series of problems for raid type content.

 

We've had player-hosted community servers for Conclave for like 5 years now. Let the raid community host their own if it's that big of a problem.

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3 hours ago, (PSN)Wil_Shatner_face said:

Here’s a question maybe I’m just too dumb to understand. The lack of balance in this game always seems to be blamed on our absurd level of power and the massive gap from the high end to the low end.

So my question is why can’t all “endgame” content just be balanced around the high end of player power? If you’ve reached “endgame” you should have at least most of the good mods by then. So basically if you want to do the hardest content then you have to have the best gear. What’s wrong with that?

 

Same reason I gave earlier, newer players will whine and even older players who simply don't want a challenge will complain that they're being "unfairly left out" of a piece of content. Pathetic but true, FOMO is the absolute worst thing in gaming these days.

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4 hours ago, (PSN)Wil_Shatner_face said:

Here’s a question maybe I’m just too dumb to understand. The lack of balance in this game always seems to be blamed on our absurd level of power and the massive gap from the high end to the low end.

So my question is why can’t all “endgame” content just be balanced around the high end of player power? If you’ve reached “endgame” you should have at least most of the good mods by then. So basically if you want to do the hardest content then you have to have the best gear. What’s wrong with that?

 

Yeah, contrary to Zilchy I really don't think fomo and players complaining has much to do with why the raids as they were aren't in the game anymore. I personally started after they left the game, but from what I've seen on video's, eh, don't think I missed much. But like I said before, I would personally like more big intricate boss encounters with all the bells and whistles.

But as for balance and challenging? Well, I guess until you learn the fight and put in on farm, to lend a morrg term. And the high-end of player-power has simply scaled beyond the idiotic.

You can put down a tridolon and the orb mothers solo. Easily. And those have plenty of ehp. They would basically get one-shot or utterly locked down if it weren't for their immunities/phases and what-not. You can also stay in endurance runs until you hit the 10K level cap for enemies at which point the damage is basically in one-shot territory. But, eh, doesn't matter because the enemies simply can not hurt you, no matter what their numbers are. 

So, no, until they rework our powers, damage and/or energy economy, the current boss designs really are the best that's possible.

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