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I love Lavos, but Don't you think we're drifting away from status attacks with every status immune enemy and boss that gets released?


(PSN)Hopper_Orouk

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50 minutes ago, (XBOX)TyeGoo said:

I reckon the second. I noticed Lavos actually requires players to think instead of mashing buttons.

Definitely. I thought in the beginning that I'm just gonna use one element all the time and such but actually it's worth to experiment around with all the elements and combine them according to the factions.

Which definitely changes how I approach fights. Especially on high level missions.

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1 hour ago, Ailia_Grimm said:

Weapons? have you tried using them?

Yeah sure, but it's why some Warframes with multipliers and Dps abilities shine more than others.

I took Nidus against profit taker, was he useful? Absolutely not, but i had weapons to do all the job for him

If lavos has the ability to imbue his weapons with modable elemental damage multiplier each time he uses one on abilities, he'd be perfect for me, in fact too perfect that i'd play nothing but lavos

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4 minutes ago, Wyrmius_Prime said:

That doesn't even account for enemy status immunities.

The amount of status immune enemies is extremely minor, use your damn weapons if you want to kill them

6 minutes ago, Wyrmius_Prime said:

I know the potential of dealing millions of damage, but those cooldowns even when reduced with his 3 are just ass.

If you don't like the cooldown mechanics, ok, but don't say that his whole kit is ass, potentially discouraging other players who never tried him

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1 hour ago, (PSN)Hopper_Orouk said:

I took Nidus against profit taker, was he useful? Absolutely not, but i had weapons to do all the job for him

Next thing you'll say is that Rhino is bad because his abilities are not stealthy for spy missions

Lavos isn't a frame for Profit-Taker, it's not his strength, that's all

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Being on console, I've only just got my hands on him.  3 forma in (including an umbra forma) and I like him a lot.

He's different to play for sure.  We're so used to the endless supply of energy and being able to spam every ability with impunity, having cooldowns certainly makes you think a bit more.  Although my build reduces those cooldowns to very little. 

He's a frame I feel encouraged to make an entire build around - primary, secondary, melee, operator, focus school - and I do enjoy this.  Much more involved than just whack everything with my condition overload/bloodrush melee.  Although c/o is obviously a core part of the build, it's because it directly compliments his abilities rather than the usual nukor/melee combo.

But he's not gonna be the best choice for every scenario.  Thank god, I like playing lots of frames. 

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3 hours ago, JackHargreav said:

No. You just either don't know how to use him or you're just lazy to learn.

This is a cookie cutter response that everyone brings to every feedback thread and it devalues any progress being made. People said that about ember, there was video evidence of her shocking damage potential- and still people said this response, the ammount of gimmicks and tricks slapped onto that warframe by the time she was buffed was basically replacing her entire kit anyway. I hate this response- especially when it’s in response to an objectively correct statement that lavos ~cannot function or use status~ against half of the enemies in the new world- however important that is, who knows. Status immunity is writhe, and it does exist, and that’s something Lavos is going to have to deal with. 

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1 hour ago, Ailia_Grimm said:

The amount of status immune enemies is extremely minor, use your damn weapons if you want to kill them

But they also tend to be the strongest enemies as well. That's why the kit falls flat when you need something else to help killing said enemies. Weak S#&$ can already be easily oneshot by even relatively weak weapons too.

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8 minutes ago, Aldain said:

Honestly what they should do with Viral is turn it into a status that takes a percentage of the damage, stores it and then hits the enemy with it at the end of the duration.

Like a delayed charge sort of thing.

The enemies would be dead before it procced, it’s like the argument for nyx’s 1, or why no one ever uses status duration. 

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12 hours ago, (PSN)FK2P said:

The enemies would be dead before it procced, it’s like the argument for nyx’s 1, or why no one ever uses status duration. 

I mean that thought I had should have been preluded by "If they'd do a big stat squish/fix first" in all honestly.

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19 hours ago, (XBOX)TyeGoo said:

While yes, it's punishing, it's also rewarding if you're able to pull it off. 

People keep saying that, but what mysterious reward are you talking about?

Even in the best scenario, which only happens when playing solo, you pull of an AoE skill that in reality has around 20 times less DPS potential than any other in the game. And that is in the best scenario where you hit anough enemies with your 3 to reduce the CD in half. But even if you are off just a second with your release of the 3 your CD reduction takes a massive dirtnap.

So I'd like to hear all about that reward people are seeing.

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vor 19 Stunden schrieb Ailia_Grimm:

You're beyond salvation, you just don't understand how to use him correctly

The problem with Lavos is the clunky gameplay, requiring two to three button presses every single ability cast. There's no amount of "understanding how to use him" that could possibly get rid of that.

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11 minutes ago, Krankbert said:

The problem with Lavos is the clunky gameplay, requiring two to three button presses every single ability cast. There's no amount of "understanding how to use him" that could possibly get rid of that.

You can infuse your abilities during the cooldowns, I don't see what's clunky about that

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vor 1 Minute schrieb Ailia_Grimm:

You can infuse your abilities during the cooldowns, I don't see what's clunky about that

I'm sorry, are you deliberately ignoring what I wrote or is there some part of "requiring two to three button presses every single ability cast" that you need explained?

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1 minute ago, Krankbert said:

I'm sorry, are you deliberately ignoring what I wrote or is there some part of "requiring two to three button presses every single ability cast" that you need explained?

You only need to press one button to cast an ability, the others are infusing abilities with the status mechanic of Lavos, I know exactly what it is

That's why I told you you could do that during the cooldowns if you're not comfortable with imbuing on the fly, no need for the negativity

I guess Lavos just isn't a frame for you, stop playing him if you can't find him enjoyable, stop being so stubborn

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Le 22/01/2021 à 22:30, (PSN)Hopper_Orouk a dit :

he can't do anything against bosses

Alot of bosses can suffer status, very few are actually immune to some status or all status. So he's not completely useless.
This is the same with Ash which has two abilities that work as finishers, finishers don't work on most bosses.

In a game where players have too much powers, nerfing some of them is a great way to make some enemies stronger. It's quite logical if you think about it.
Take the cold Status for example, slowing enemy by 75%, even worst if you pile up Nova's slow. Wouldn't all fights be too easy to read and react if the boss would just suffer all of these slows ? Not to mention extremely boring.

Just one of these two is already plenty crippling, when we were doing Scarlet Spear, it was quite rare to not have a nova in your squad to slow the enemies, as it was making the fight so much easier.
Boss fights are supposed to be more important and harder, a bigger obstacle. If you deal with a boss the way you deal with a common enemy then it's not that much of a boss is it ?

Now, since we're in Warframe, a boss fight with one enemy alone is too easy for Tennos. Most of the time a boss has a crowd of enemies tagging along, Lavos status would still work on them. Whether to kill them, slow them, or turn them against each other using Radiation. So when you say Lavos is useless this is not exactly true even for the status immune bosses.

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2 hours ago, (XBOX)TyeGoo said:

Being able to deal dmg and place almost all status effects on enemies with him (except IPS, which weapons are there for) feels different and more rewarding since his game play is about casting and placing abilities at the right time in the right place and requires more than just pressing one button mindlessly. (I know, after 8 years of mashing button x (depending on platform) is everything for the majority of players now.

And if something dares to survive his ultimate, it has so many status effects on it that it literally requires only a lvl 0 unformad weapon to give that enemy the rest. 

I like that he's not a press x to win frame, and you're being rewarded by playing him correctly by doing a nice amount of dmg and leave the enemies with dozens upon dozens of stacks of status effects in a large area. 

I'm not bothered about the cool downs, matter of fact, I'm thinking about trying builds with helminth and replace the CD reduction ability. That'd mean full CD on all abilities and I'm absolutely fine with it. 

---

All in all I'm really enjoying him, funny enough, I haven't even scratched stat caps yet so there's even more potential, not to mention not even steel path requires you to imbue every single cast. And don't get me started on the Cedo.. I like that weapon too. 

In general, I'm using more guns when playing him instead of melee, and I'm still as good as with playing frames where you only Spam 1 ability and or pressing e until literal carpal tunnel. 

But he only spreads a max of 2 statuses at a time with his skills, the native one and the one you've blended together pre-cast. And like you say, you are ready to replace his 3, which makes me wanna ask one thing. How is that not a kit with a poor design? People are replacing the bread and butter skill of his kit since it doesnt fullfill the task it was planned to do. And people rightly replace it, because it is a trash skill in his kit and will do next to squat in groups and relies heavily on enemy density elsewhere when solo.

I still cannot see anything that is rewarding about playing him since spreading statuses is already more effectively done with guns or melee. Sure he can fart once every 35 sec and wipe out a crowd of mobs, which can be as easily done with a weapon, or far more steadily with other frames and their abilities without spam involved.

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3 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

But he only spreads a max of 2 statuses at a time with his skills, the native one and the one you've blended together pre-cast. And like you say, you are ready to replace his 3, which makes me wanna ask one thing. How is that not a kit with a poor design? People are replacing the bread and butter skill of his kit since it doesnt fullfill the task it was planned to do. And people rightly replace it, because it is a trash skill in his kit and will do next to squat in groups and relies heavily on enemy density elsewhere when solo.

I still cannot see anything that is rewarding about playing him since spreading statuses is already more effectively done with guns or melee. Sure he can fart once every 35 sec and wipe out a crowd of mobs, which can be as easily done with a weapon, or far more steadily with other frames and their abilities without spam involved.

Sure you can do that with your weapons and other frames, but you can't exactly do it like Lavos.

Lavos can Counter any enemy that is vulnerable to status with just using his abilities

Alloy Grineer? use Viral+heat+Radiation

Ferrite Grineer? use viral+heat+corrosive

Corpus? use Viral+magnetic+toxin 

and so on, you get the idea

changing the elements makes a huge difference, don't fall to people who say that only this specific combo is meta, i've tested it, heavy gunners could only get one shot from corrosive, and corpus enemies could only get one shot from toxin

i won't replace any of Lavos' abilities because i need all of the elements, and lavos isn't designed to be Helminth friendly 

Transmutation probe, his third skill, does fulfill it's role a little bit if you invest in efficiency, around 50% extra eff is all you need nothing more, and i'm pretty sure DE will buff the cooldown reduction to 2 seconds instead of 1 which will clear up a mod room for me for a potential augment or something.

Lavos is extremely Rewarding to me, as i've been looking for a warframe that can Copy the resistances and damage types of enemies and uses it counter them, and lavos is the closest i can get to a Warframe like this.

funny enough i find my self using his abilities more often than any other warframe i've used, Cooldowns was never an issue to me

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14 hours ago, (XBOX)TyeGoo said:

Already having the ability to spread the RAW uncombined elements is a huge plus since that's only possible by basically butchering your entire load out. (I heard it was possible with modding x.0, but I never experienced it) [also I love the max slow enemies get from his 2, A Big difference in the new corpus tileset] 

What spread though? He has a long CD on the skill that can actually reach something outside of what your melee or ranged weapons can effectively decimate and that skill is strong enough to kill the trash it hits. He doesnt have normal reliable spread. If his imbues effected his weapons it would be a whole different thing and I'm surprised they didnt turn his imbues into straight weapon buffs to reward him for otherwise being a CD based frame. And yes as you say, we have guns, Lavos issue is still the same, his kit doesnt make him better at using guns or weapons in general. Even Grendel has better support for being a weapon platform in his baseline kit, even though Nourish sucks horribly as a damage buff. And I'm curious, how does Lavos work best with guns when his whole kit except for his 4 requires you to be in or get into melee range?

Sure, helminth doesnt get rid of the skill entirely, it is still shocking that the skill that enables his mechanics to actually work at their highest potential is the one that people tend to be OK with removing first. That should have alarm bells ringing for DE regarding how their CD mechanic is designed. You arent the first to mention replacing his 3. And not all skills are automatically flawled or useless just because they are replaced by a helminth option, but in this case, being fine with replacing the skill that actually defines his mechanics the most shows there are flaws with how his kit works and how unrewarding that skill is.

Most frames require something that gets more difficult to achieve in groups, they are however not limited by up to 35 second downtime windows on those skills. So missing a cast due to X reason doesnt matter. The only frame that had more issues (compared to other frames) in groups was Nidus, which DE saw the problem with and gave the option for an augmented Larva so there is a chance friendly kills can also build stacks. For Lavos, if the rest of the group kills he is effectively locked out of his kit.

As for his 3 moving on its own. You still need to be in the middle of the enemy for it to do anything at all since it has a very short lifetime and low range. The skill worked better before you hit 30 (and before they fixed it) since the duration of the skill at the middle ranks actually had an acceptable duration, so you could effectively send it down a corridor to reduce your CDs. After hitting 30 it has a crap duration of 3 seconds, while moving like a snail and only with a base AoE range of 6m only.

I'm also not sure how the bolded part in my sentence made it foul. I never said we cant spam, I said we can achieve the same as Lavos' #4 through other means without even needing to spam. His 4 is weak and should have alot more tucked into it to actually justify the 30 sec CD. I gave a simply solution earlier in another thread about Lavos. Simply put, add buffs to Lavos for the duration of each skills CD window. This would actually make his CD system worthwhile since you'd get something out of it that doesnt just compete with the dps or CC of other frames. And finaly his 4 could increase the duration of all those buffs until his 4 is off CD again.

I also dont see how Lavos removes the need to spam E more than any other frame. That is just a choice you've made, but he isnt better with another approach compared to others. Spamming E will always be better than using ranged options, Lavos kit doesnt change any of that unless you found a hidden skill in there that improves ranged performance. And he also doesnt replace spamming anything, since he is simply limited to not be able to. He isnt a stronger option in any of those cases, heck he isnt even a stronger option than Grendel, Inaros or Atlas. There are plenty of other choices out there that are better if you simply want to get away from the handful of spam frames that cover whole maps. To me it seems you are overly fond of spamming and needs DE to restrict you not to, by introducing a frame that makes it impossible. I on the otherhand tend to already play frames without spam and I hoped Lavos would be a good option added to that pool of frames, which he just isnt.

12 hours ago, (PSN)Hopper_Orouk said:

Sure you can do that with your weapons and other frames, but you can't exactly do it like Lavos.

Lavos can Counter any enemy that is vulnerable to status with just using his abilities

Alloy Grineer? use Viral+heat+Radiation

Ferrite Grineer? use viral+heat+corrosive

Corpus? use Viral+magnetic+toxin 

and so on, you get the idea

changing the elements makes a huge difference, don't fall to people who say that only this specific combo is meta, i've tested it, heavy gunners could only get one shot from corrosive, and corpus enemies could only get one shot from toxin

i won't replace any of Lavos' abilities because i need all of the elements, and lavos isn't designed to be Helminth friendly 

Transmutation probe, his third skill, does fulfill it's role a little bit if you invest in efficiency, around 50% extra eff is all you need nothing more, and i'm pretty sure DE will buff the cooldown reduction to 2 seconds instead of 1 which will clear up a mod room for me for a potential augment or something.

Lavos is extremely Rewarding to me, as i've been looking for a warframe that can Copy the resistances and damage types of enemies and uses it counter them, and lavos is the closest i can get to a Warframe like this.

funny enough i find my self using his abilities more often than any other warframe i've used, Cooldowns was never an issue to me

The question is just. When is there time for any of that? Mobs tend to be long dead before any of that becomes a choice or worthwhile. Sounds alot like simtheory-crafting and not much else.

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vor 23 Stunden schrieb Ailia_Grimm:

You only need to press one button to cast an ability, the others are infusing abilities with the status mechanic of Lavos, I know exactly what it is

That's why I told you you could do that during the cooldowns if you're not comfortable with imbuing on the fly, no need for the negativity

I guess Lavos just isn't a frame for you, stop playing him if you can't find him enjoyable, stop being so stubborn

You’re arguing semantics.

Also if you think that people shouldn’t voice their opinion I really don’t get why you’re on a public forum, but you’re always free to take the first step and shut up.

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