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Its time for immortal pets....


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1 hour ago, DebrisFlow said:

No please, i'm really curious to see you climbing another mirror

Ask the people who keep mentioning that their companions don't die during these activities. We have options that allow us to have pets that remain viable in everything outside of long endurance runs. You've been here long enough to know that, but you seem to have missed some things. Like I said, I'mma let you figure it out on your own.

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13 minutes ago, (PSN)smb-twisted said:

you've built your pet badly then. i've not had a pet go down in venom or iso vaults. iso vaults, are you serious?

 

my little kavat is fine up to maybe 90 minutes in kuvival and being fair, i wouldn't expect them to last forever.

My Smeeta has a tendency to eat a mouthfull of Gravemines in Iso vaults if I try to actually fight mechs how they're "supposed" to be fought. My Vizer has gone down several times in OV, and its just stacked with survivability mods.
Smeeta just ate some infested goop I was no where near in an incursion 30 min ago and died. Again, built for health and using Tek Assault.
Any mission with Juno Elite Crewman has my companion going down pretty reliably unless I'm nuking everything before it comes close.
Kuva Survival is fine usually because again, running stuff that either nukes enemies before they can react me, or using stuff that offer absolute defenses/CC the entire room

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15 hours ago, (PSN)guzmantt1977 said:

Ask the people who keep mentioning that their companions don't die during these activities. We have options that allow us to have pets that remain viable in everything outside of long endurance runs. You've been here long enough to know that, but you seem to have missed some things. Like I said, I'mma let you figure it out on your own.

You already established multiple times how we have "choices" if we want our pets to stay, we already established multiple times how these choices are forced, limited and bad game design in general. The fact that the choice you defend is now present in the game design does not make it automatically good design. You felt back in a circular argument by just repeating your mantra without disproving our critics. Try again.

To my critics, other people rightfully included also AI faulty behavior, pathing issues and the fact that even pet resurrection is useless if then they stay alive only for seconds in many situations (unless you force yourself back to few selected metas like inaros). The first two issues may be solved separately, but tuning companion survaivability in general would happen to alleviate all problems togheter at once (and from a developer point of view this is undeniably preferable given the limited time and all of the other game maintenance efforts)

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7 hours ago, DebrisFlow said:

You already established multiple times how we have "choices" if we want our pets to stay, we already established multiple times how these choices are forced, limited and bad game design in general. The fact that the choice you defend is now present in the game design does not make it automatically good design. You felt back in a circular argument by just repeating your mantra without disproving our critics. Try again.

To my critics, other people rightfully included also AI faulty behavior, pathing issues and the fact that even pet resurrection is useless if then they stay alive only for seconds in many situations (unless you force yourself back to few selected metas like inaros). The first two issues may be solved separately, but tuning companion survaivability in general would happen to alleviate all problems togheter at once (and from a developer point of view this is undeniably preferable given the limited time and all of the other game maintenance efforts)

Nope you established that you don't believe that non-"immortal" pets can survive during missions. This is why you seem to be under the impression that there are a total of 4. Others have indicated that they don't limit themselves to those 4 and aren't having the same insurmountable problem as you. 

This should indicate something, and for people who understand the game they're playing, it would. You haven't caught on yet, so like I said, I'mma let you figure it out on your own. 

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21 hours ago, (PSN)guzmantt1977 said:

Ask the people who keep mentioning that their companions don't die during these activities. We have options that allow us to have pets that remain viable in everything outside of long endurance runs. You've been here long enough to know that, but you seem to have missed some things. Like I said, I'mma let you figure it out on your own.

I rarely have my companions, die, and can even keep Sentinels alive during endurance runs. When my companions do die, it's always entirely because of nothing I did wrong.

Not everyone in favor of them losing their health bar and not being targeted is because they're dying left and right, it's because from a balance perspective, it makes absolutely zero sense. You even bring up self reviving companions as an option, those options only exist because DE knows from a game design standpoint, them dying is stupid. However, DE always likes restricting mod choice, or even Warframe/Weapon choice, as a means to fix issues deliberately created by them so people would grind for them.

There's a reason why companions are mainly invincible and can't draw aggro in other games. Healthbars on companions/pets only make sense in instances where a class, or the game, is balanced around actually fighting with them. Obviously if companions functioned in a way they drew aggro and could deal as much dps as we could, they would need health bars to balance it out, but they don't. The closest to that is Specters, or something like Wukong Twin, which is easier to maintain uptime than companions.

Your argument against the change is literally anyone disagreeing with you is to put simply, terrible at the game; even though it's obvious by now you're the one who's actually unaware of much of anything.

This is all before taking into account how some Warframes break the alleged balancing in regards to companion survivability. If the game is "balanced" around babysitting simulator, then why do some Warframes get to have their Companions be unkillable unless they're flat out one shot? Wisp's HP buff when the heal to objectives were changed ended up interacting with beast companions twice, their HP goes up when yours does with link mods, and then they can also get the buffs, the buffs also apply to sentinels when they originally didn't. Not all buffs are even equal in this regard, half the time Oberon's Renewal stops working on companions if their HP stays full. It's also not as if These Warframes have such drawbacks to justify breaking this apparently highly important companion balance.

Companions dying don't actually offer anything to the game either, if they do die, or someone else's, it's always an oh darn, gotta spend a few seconds doing this 100% risk free revive to not lose some qol features. If it's a Sentinel, tough luck. I don't consider game mechanics that do literally nothing at all beyond cause frustration to be mechanics worth keeping in the game. There's a good reason why many stupid death mechanics that existed in games ~20 years ago, don't exist in the vast majority of modern games, they were all nothing but garbage time wastes.

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5 hours ago, (PSN)guzmantt1977 said:

Nope you established that you don't believe that non-"immortal" pets can survive during missions. This is why you seem to be under the impression that there are a total of 4. Others have indicated that they don't limit themselves to those 4 and aren't having the same insurmountable problem as you. 

This should indicate something, and for people who understand the game they're playing, it would. You haven't caught on yet, so like I said, I'mma let you figure it out on your own. 

Nope, you conveniently twisted again my position to make it appear as a categorical and wrong conclusion, and you are creatively making up an impression in your mind where i have "unsurmontable" problems with pet survaivability, because that's the only way in which you can attack it. You can continue to use your dishonest rhetoric tricks, the thread is here to show it only at your own embarrassasment.

You and others have indicated that there are ways to have pets survive during high level missions. I never categorically rebutted this. I said that excessive susceptibility of companions to death is a reported issue. Me and others then proceded to demonstrate that there is a concurrence of factors of bad design (limited amount of pseudo-choices) and factors outside of our controll (AI) that make this issue a huge nuisance which can only be addressed by build homogenisation through an excessively limited set of tools.

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5 hours ago, Yamazuki said:

I rarely have my companions, die, and can even keep Sentinels alive during endurance runs. When my companions do die, it's always entirely because of nothing I did wrong.

Not everyone in favor of them losing their health bar and not being targeted is because they're dying left and right, it's because from a balance perspective, it makes absolutely zero sense. You even bring up self reviving companions as an option, those options only exist because DE knows from a game design standpoint, them dying is stupid. However, DE always likes restricting mod choice, or even Warframe/Weapon choice, as a means to fix issues deliberately created by them so people would grind for them.

There's a reason why companions are mainly invincible and can't draw aggro in other games. Healthbars on companions/pets only make sense in instances where a class, or the game, is balanced around actually fighting with them. Obviously if companions functioned in a way they drew aggro and could deal as much dps as we could, they would need health bars to balance it out, but they don't. The closest to that is Specters, or something like Wukong Twin, which is easier to maintain uptime than companions.

Your argument against the change is literally anyone disagreeing with you is to put simply, terrible at the game; even though it's obvious by now you're the one who's actually unaware of much of anything.

This is all before taking into account how some Warframes break the alleged balancing in regards to companion survivability. If the game is "balanced" around babysitting simulator, then why do some Warframes get to have their Companions be unkillable unless they're flat out one shot? Wisp's HP buff when the heal to objectives were changed ended up interacting with beast companions twice, their HP goes up when yours does with link mods, and then they can also get the buffs, the buffs also apply to sentinels when they originally didn't. Not all buffs are even equal in this regard, half the time Oberon's Renewal stops working on companions if their HP stays full. It's also not as if These Warframes have such drawbacks to justify breaking this apparently highly important companion balance.

Companions dying don't actually offer anything to the game either, if they do die, or someone else's, it's always an oh darn, gotta spend a few seconds doing this 100% risk free revive to not lose some qol features. If it's a Sentinel, tough luck. I don't consider game mechanics that do literally nothing at all beyond cause frustration to be mechanics worth keeping in the game. There's a good reason why many stupid death mechanics that existed in games ~20 years ago, don't exist in the vast majority of modern games, they were all nothing but garbage time wastes.

You have pets that are not the revive type, and are able to say that they are definitely viable. You know that we have choices that can be made to enhance other pets to near immortality (pathing issues aside). 

Believe it or not, that's what I was talking about all this time. Because there's someone here who claimed that our only choice is between 4 very specific companions, which they then claimed is not a choice at all, but a matter of being forced to choose one of those. 

That's why I told them that they don't know what they had counted wrong, because they are dependent on others to tell them what to use. It's not a matter of me being the only person who knows how to play the game, because I specifically told them to ask the people who are saying that they have pets that are viable in the content we're talking about.

And I haven't claimed that all people who disagree with me are bad at playing the game. What I have repeatedly said is that the game has choices that we need to make, in all aspects of play. Choices that are typically a matter of strengths and weaknesses. Whenever we choose one strength, we end up with a weakness in some other aspect. This is true for everything from damage type, weapon selection, warframe selection, play style and yes, even choice of companions. 

What i have said is that this makes our choices more meaningful in my eyes.

Don't get me wrong, I said absolutely nothing about balancing other parts of the game, like sentinels vs pets, warframes vs enemies, or even companions in general vs enemies. 

What I have said is that making all companions immortal would lead to people who DON'T make choices, and thus a reduction in diversity. The same reduction in diversity that people falsely claim exist because "there are only 4 viable options", a claim which you clearly dispute.

Now @Corvid makes a valid point when he says that there are still reasons to change companions, but that's because he's making choices. Unfortunately he also notes that he has spent a lot of time with a singular companion, which is the exact trap that I see in store for all of us. If they remove the weakness of 'death' then what's to keep most of us from sticking to only one companion. And all of us know that for many players it'll be whichever companion their favourite YouTuber says is "the last companion you will ever need". 

As for companions not dying in other games, I remember a talking dog in Skyrim. But he was an odd example, right not an actual companion? Oh wait, I remember a quest asking us to sacrifice an actual companion to permadeath too, and I think there was a talking sword that wanted us to kill folks with good relationships as well. Hey there was a dog in vanilla Fallout 3 too, he died as well. RIP Dogmeat. Again many of those things are choice points that we have to make, and live with the consequences both good and bad, which is a feature of quite a lot the more memorable games, isn't it? 

 

 

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3 hours ago, (PSN)guzmantt1977 said:

You have pets that are not the revive type, and are able to say that they are definitely viable. You know that we have choices that can be made to enhance other pets to near immortality (pathing issues aside). 

Believe it or not, that's what I was talking about all this time. Because there's someone here who claimed that our only choice is between 4 very specific companions, which they then claimed is not a choice at all, but a matter of being forced to choose one of those. 

Choice restriction is in the fact Sentinels pretty much don't exist at high levels, and the Warframe you're playing greatly impacts how frequently you have to revive Beast Companions. Link Mods are based on the stats your Warframes have, this means high stat builds get tankier companions. This means you're limited to:

-Tanky Warframes, or Warframes with buffs that apply to companions, such as Wisp, one of the most played Warframes

-Stealth Warframes

-Permanently disabling enemies as they spawn whether through burst or cc

4 hours ago, (PSN)guzmantt1977 said:

If they remove the weakness of 'death' then what's to keep most of us from sticking to only one companion. And all of us know that for many players it'll be whichever companion their favourite YouTuber says is "the last companion you will ever need". 

Immortal companions don't restrict choice, and you never said how it does. For it to restrict choice, it would have to mean there is a very clear one superior companion in all situations. There isn't a companion that fits that. Sentinels offer a variety of different utilities from each other, their utility just gets ignored because they die too easily to even use it, and in content where they don't die, their utility literally does nothing; and then there's their stat sticking with their various weapons. Beast companions are in the same position.

People are only going to use one companion regardless of whether they're invulnerable or not. People don't find it enjoyable to constantly swap loadouts. Many people only use 1 Warframe 90% of the time. It is their choice to restrict their arsenal to one loadout. Forced diversity is the opposite of freedom. I have like 30 loadouts, but I don't feel it's necessary that everyone play in the way I do.

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4 hours ago, (PSN)guzmantt1977 said:

You have pets that are not the revive type, and are able to say that they are definitely viable. You know that we have choices that can be made to enhance other pets to near immortality (pathing issues aside). 

Believe it or not, that's what I was talking about all this time. Because there's someone here who claimed that our only choice is between 4 very specific companions, which they then claimed is not a choice at all, but a matter of being forced to choose one of those. 

Oooh, right, i forgot to mention pet survaivability through some other strict warframe interactions: ultra tankiness, invisibility, revolving your whole game on spamming melee. If it was not for the fact that we started talking about nechramech interactions...remember OP's mainline "mechs and pets DO NOT go together" ? 

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3 hours ago, Yamazuki said:

Choice restriction is in the fact Sentinels pretty much don't exist at high levels, and the Warframe you're playing greatly impacts how frequently you have to revive Beast Companions. Link Mods are based on the stats your Warframes have, this means high stat builds get tankier companions. This means you're limited to:

-Tanky Warframes, or Warframes with buffs that apply to companions, such as Wisp, one of the most played Warframes

-Stealth Warframes

-Permanently disabling enemies as they spawn whether through burst or cc

At what point, ie, how many combinations need to exist before it stops being "choice restriction" and just start being "a choice"? 

 

3 hours ago, Yamazuki said:

Immortal companions don't restrict choice, and you never said how it does. For it to restrict choice, it would have to mean there is a very clear one superior companion in all situations. There isn't a companion that fits that. Sentinels offer a variety of different utilities from each other, their utility just gets ignored because they die too easily to even use it, and in content where they don't die, their utility literally does nothing; and then there's their stat sticking with their various weapons. Beast companions are in the same position.

People are only going to use one companion regardless of whether they're invulnerable or not. People don't find it enjoyable to constantly swap loadouts. Many people only use 1 Warframe 90% of the time. It is their choice to restrict their arsenal to one loadout. Forced diversity is the opposite of freedom. I have like 30 loadouts, but I don't feel it's necessary that everyone play in the way I do.

Again you missed what I have said:

8 hours ago, (PSN)guzmantt1977 said:

Choices that are typically a matter of strengths and weaknesses. Whenever we choose one strength, we end up with a weakness in some other aspect. This is true for everything from damage type, weapon selection, warframe selection, play style and yes, even choice of companions. 

What i have said is that this makes our choices more meaningful in my eyes.

If a choice isn't meaningful, if it doesn't really matter what we choose, then it's not really a choice, is it, just the illusion of choice. 

Have you ever read one of those "choose your own adventure" books? Would it have been made better if every single option you could take always, inevitably lead to the same conclusion, where you got the "good" ending? Would you advocate for such a change to those books? I don't doubt that some people would be happy if you did that. 

That's how I see the request in this thread. 

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YOu jUsT nEeD tO BuiLd yOuR peT RiGhT.

As DE themselves have clearly said many times, they don't like when gameplay locks you into something. If you're locked into a particular frame or set of mods just to help your pet survive, that isn't good.

I got a Vizier predasite just for the event. I named him Dr. Sporicus. I gilded him, dropped a potato and some forma in it. It's running cloned flesh to give it corpus resistance. I have all the link mods in it (except vitality, the non-linked gave more in my case) and the one that blinds enemies to keep them from hitting it, plus medipet kit and pack hunter for healing. Literally every mod on the thing is to help it survive long enough to heal my mech. My frame is Hildryn so its shields are ridiculous.

It still goes down. If my team is good at clearing enemies in the room, it happens less, but it they are bad my poor pet gets murdered left and right. If it's between Orphixes I can revive it, but otherwise my pet is toast.

I stand by my other posts, I think making all pets and sentinels self -reviving on a cooldown like Venari is the answer, altering regen mods and Vulpaphyla mods to reduce revive time and add additional effects to maintain their viability. This keeps your pets in the mission without making them immortal and still encourages you to play attention to their survivability.

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On 2021-01-30 at 7:58 PM, (PSN)guzmantt1977 said:

 I'mma let you figure it out on your own. 

You keep saying that, and I wish you'd stick to it.


Please let us figure it out on our own, because your condescension doesn't help, neither does it help that you are constantly white-knighting the problematic design decisions without realizing that they are, in fact, problematic. You just keep repeating yourself with points that were already disproven.

So please, do let us figure it out on our own.

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5 minutes ago, Her_Lovely_Tentacles said:

You keep saying that, and I wish you'd stick to it.


Please let us figure it out on our own, because your condescension doesn't help, neither does it help that you are constantly white-knighting the problematic design decisions without realizing that they are, in fact, problematic. You just keep repeating yourself with points that were already disproven.

So please, do let us figure it out on our own.

You noticed that I stopped responding to that user several days ago? No? 

🤷‍♂️

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32 minutes ago, Her_Lovely_Tentacles said:

OK 👍

you literally posted the same stuff again just 13 hours ago

People respond to different people. I responded to someone who posted a few hours before, who was quoting something I said. We were each expanding on the points we were making. Neither of us were bashing the other as far as I can tell. 

That's sort of the point of a discussion forum. But hey, you go ahead and do whatever it is you think you are doing 😉

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6 minutes ago, (PSN)guzmantt1977 said:

People respond to different people. I responded to someone who posted a few hours before, who was quoting something I said. We were each expanding on the points we were making. Neither of us were bashing the other as far as I can tell. 

That's sort of the point of a discussion forum. But hey, you go ahead and do whatever it is you think you are doing 😉

In a discussion, you usually don't keep saying the same thing over and over. You're just being loud. That's a way to shut down a discussion, not a way to hold a discussion.

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On 29/01/2021 at 2:51 PM, Butterfly85 said:

The only thing I do mod wise is not give my sentinel an attack mod. They do naff all damage anyway and I'm trying not to draw aggro unnecessarily. I just play games in wierd ways. 

Also fwiw, I'm not picking an argument here. You asked what I ran and I answered. 😊

Its not at all weird to not give a gun to your sentinel, in fact I thought its pretty common because otherwise they only die faster. 

On 30/01/2021 at 2:13 AM, (PSN)smb-twisted said:

you've built your pet badly then. i've not had a pet go down in venom or iso vaults. iso vaults, are you serious?

 

my little kavat is fine up to maybe 90 minutes in kuvival and being fair, i wouldn't expect them to last forever.

Lol, I used Inaros with all the health/armor mods during the event, and my predasite with all the maxed link mods and other survivability mods started eventually dying towards the end of the 36 rounds of Orphix Venom. 

There was literally no way of making it any tougher (I have all mods). If I used any other warframe (eg. Hildryn) it started dying from round 1 unless I had Aegis Storm active at all times. So either you are trolling/lying or extremely lucky.

In iso vaults my pets only die when I use Banshee or similar cause I dont use/need any health/armor mods on her, which again only proves the point that pets need better survivability mods not reliant on warframes you are using (except for the obvious buffs oberon gives to pets etc). 

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On 2021-01-27 at 11:23 AM, (PSN)guzmantt1977 said:

You one of those people who needs to drive a nail into a wall, goes into a toolbox, and decides "today I want to use the screwdriver for this job, which it is not suited for" then writes a letter of complaint to the manufacturers to say that the screwdriver isn't as good at driving nails into a wall as a hammer?

You have a variety of tools that are each a little different. They're not the same, and not intended to be the same. You can choose to use the one that's best suited to the task you want to do, or not.

Why is this a problem? 

The other tools break the moment you try to use it. Ends up you have to use screwdriver for the hammer job too. Difficult to understand?

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27 minutes ago, Marvelous_A said:

The other tools break the moment you try to use it. Ends up you have to use screwdriver for the hammer job too. Difficult to understand?

Quite, because multiple people on the thread have disputed the claim, by saying that they do manage to find ways to increase their pets longevities. 🤷‍♂️

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19 hours ago, (PSN)guzmantt1977 said:

Quite, because multiple people on the thread have disputed the claim, by saying that they do manage to find ways to increase their pets longevities. 🤷‍♂️

Multiple people have disputed those claims as well. It's all very disputed, really.
Anyways, why do you feel the need to shut down this discussion that hard? What is your personal interest in this?

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19 minutes ago, Her_Lovely_Tentacles said:

Multiple people have disputed those claims as well. It's all very disputed, really.
Anyways, why do you feel the need to shut down this discussion that hard? What is your personal interest in this?

Oh but I haven't. You're the one who seems to be trying to tell me to stop posting. And my personal interest is the same as everyone else's, I like playing this game. I like that my choices have consequences, and that some things work better against some enemies than against others, and that we each have to think "how do I want to go about this", "what am I willing to sacrifice in order to achieve the effect that I want".

How about you? What's your reason for trying to shut down a person who's just explaining why he's disagreeing with you, while maintaing an overall respectful tone and not violating any of the forum rules?

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1 hour ago, (PSN)guzmantt1977 said:

Oh but I haven't. You're the one who seems to be trying to tell me to stop posting. And my personal interest is the same as everyone else's, I like playing this game. I like that my choices have consequences, and that some things work better against some enemies than against others, and that we each have to think "how do I want to go about this", "what am I willing to sacrifice in order to achieve the effect that I want".

How about you? What's your reason for trying to shut down a person who's just explaining why he's disagreeing with you, while maintaing an overall respectful tone and not violating any of the forum rules?

Because you're obviously sealioning. You keep reposting the same stuff all over again and disregard the fact that other people just have different opinions. Telling people their opinions are 'wrong' over and over again is not a discussion, it's just being loud. And you're doing it with such condescension, it is honestly just insulting.

I like my choices in game to have consequences too, but having to let your frame die to revive your Sentinel isn't a choice, it's just bad/outdated design.

You can post again if you've got something new to say. The topic has been derailed enough.

 

Edited by Her_Lovely_Tentacles
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47 minutes ago, Her_Lovely_Tentacles said:

Because you're obviously sealioning. You keep reposting the same stuff all over again and disregard the fact that other people just have different opinions. Telling people their opinions are 'wrong' over and over again is not a discussion, it's just being loud. And you're doing it with such condescension, it is honestly just insulting.

I like my choices in game to have consequences too, but having to let your frame die to revive your Sentinel isn't a choice, it's just bad/outdated design.

You can post again if you've got something new to say. The topic has been derailed enough.

 

Well at least you're being halfway honest about how you are actually actively doing what you accused me of doing. 

And again, I do have to point out that others, including people who disagree with me, have clearly said that they are able to have their companions survive through the content. (And also the rather obvious fact that there are in fact options for companions that will self revive without the need for your warframe to die.)

Since all of that seems to be true, it looks like you are saying that it is actually good game design, huh? 

😉

 

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2 minutes ago, (PSN)guzmantt1977 said:

And again, I do have to point out that others, including people who disagree with me, have clearly said that they are able to have their companions survive through the content. (And also the rather obvious fact that there are in fact options for companions that will self revive without the need for your warframe to die.)

Since all of that seems to be true, it looks like you are saying that it is actually good game design, huh? 

😉

 

I won't dispute that sentinels and pets can survive a casual level of content. But not everyone is a casual player. What works for you isn't working for everyone. I don't care what you do to your pet or sentinel, when the enemies are level +200 it's going to die, and probably much earlier than that. Currently there are two self-reviving companions: Vulpaphylas and Djinn (Djinn needs a 75k standing Cimaris mod, which isn't exactly in reach for early players). But by that level they are both going to be dying as soon as they revive, in a tortuous loop. That's really not a 'choice'.  Similarly most Moas, Kubrows and less popular sentinels like Diriga, Wyrm and non-prime dethcube/carrier/helios etc. die in even the most casual of content, which is why they are unpopular to begin with. Shade is something of an exception because people mostly use it for stealth, meaning ideally it's never in combat at all. These companions aren't viable at all because their surviveability is so terrible. Again just because they exist, doesn't mean they are a choice. They aren't reliable in any content. It would be great to bring Wyrm Prime along to provide CC on a frame that doesn't have much, but it just dies to quickly. My Carrier Prime isn't even that great, it dies on Tricaps and those are pretty casual content. Just because there are a few choices out of all the existing companions that 'kind of work', doesn't mean the whole system is fine. The vast majority need some kind of buffs and overall I think making all companions self-reviving on a cooldown would be the best way to make modding for surviveability still meaningful for the casual crowd, while making sure your companion is still around if you are doing more difficult content.

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