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Its time for immortal pets....


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9 minutes ago, (PSN)M00n_Slippers said:

I won't dispute that sentinels and pets can survive a casual level of content. But not everyone is a casual player. What works for you isn't working for everyone. I don't care what you do to your pet or sentinel, when the enemies are level +200 it's going to die, and probably much earlier than that. Currently there are two self-reviving companions: Vulpaphylas and Djinn (Djinn needs a 75k standing Cimaris mod, which isn't exactly in reach for early players). But by that level they are both going to be dying as soon as they revive, in a tortuous loop. That's really not a 'choice'.  Similarly most Moas, Kubrows and less popular sentinels like Diriga, Wyrm and non-prime dethcube/carrier/helios etc. die in even the most casual of content, which is why they are unpopular to begin with. Shade is something of an exception because people mostly use it for stealth, meaning ideally it's never in combat at all. These companions aren't viable at all because their surviveability is so terrible. Again just because they exist, doesn't mean they are a choice. They aren't reliable in any content. It would be great to bring Wyrm Prime along to provide CC on a frame that doesn't have much, but it just dies to quickly. My Carrier Prime isn't even that great, it dies on Tricaps and those are pretty casual content. Just because there are a few choices out of all the existing companions that 'kind of work', doesn't mean the whole system is fine. The vast majority need some kind of buffs and overall I think making all companions self-reviving on a cooldown would be the best way to make modding for surviveability still meaningful for the casual crowd, while making sure your companion is still around if you are doing more difficult content.

Read it all again carefully. I never talked about what works for me. I pointed out that others, including people who have disagreed with me have said that they are able to keep their pets viable (pathing issues aside) in higher level content. 

Also its kind of weird to talk about viability in high level content, but then talk about Simaris rep being out of the reach of low level players, don't you think? 

And I already mentioned that I'm not arguing that sentinels vs pets isn't an issue. Or even that companions in general vs enemy scaling isn't an issue. 

Tricaps are sort of the definition of one of the endgame type content that currently exists in the game, so calling it casual is weird as well. I mean look at the selection of weapons and frames that people take in those. I know that eidolon hunting is one of the few places where I certainly do glance at the loadout choices people in my runs make, and immediately think "good choice/questionable choice/bad choice/oh good grief" based on what I see, don't you? Why shouldn't that same for the companions? If literally everything works for those, would that totally trivialize most of the rest of the game? 

And while you talk about having a few choices, I know that I recently asked something along the lines "how many options do we have to have before it stops being 'restricted choices' and just becomes 'choices'"? 

And as for making all of them self reviving, I'm not agreeing with you fully on that, but take a good look through the thread. A number of people have complained that even self reviving isn't good enough, they want total immortality. How do you feel about that? 

 

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5 minutes ago, (PSN)guzmantt1977 said:

Read it all again carefully. I never talked about what works for me. I pointed out that others, including people who have disagreed with me have said that they are able to keep their pets viable (pathing issues aside) in higher level content. 

That was a general 'you', including you and anyone else with similar views. If thought that would be obvious but apparently not. Also, I'd need some proof of their anecdotes, because their experience contradicts my own and that of most other people I know doing high level content. Watch anyone who does long endurance runs and their Sentinels are dead after enemy level 100. If there's some secret I don't know about (that isn't just, use Inaros!), I'd like to know it.

7 minutes ago, (PSN)guzmantt1977 said:

Also its kind of weird to talk about viability in high level content, but then talk about Simaris rep being out of the reach of low level players, don't you think?

Not really, because we're talking about Djinn and I wouldn't even say it's viable in anything over level 40. It's just awful, or at least it was the last time I tried using it. I point out the Simaris rep because not only is it NOT an inherent feature of the sentinel (the Vulpaphyla mod comes with it, it doesn't need extra investment to get it), so comparing djinn to Vulpaphyla isn't quite the whole story, but by the time a player is likely to get the mod, it's already been outpaced by basically everything else. Hell, Taxon is better than Djinn in my opinion and it isn't even immortal, mod or no.

10 minutes ago, (PSN)guzmantt1977 said:

Tricaps are sort of the definition of one of the endgame type content that currently exists in the game, so calling it casual is weird as well. I mean look at the selection of weapons and frames that people take in those. I know that eidolon hunting is one of the few places where I certainly do glance at the loadout choices people in my runs make, and immediately think "good choice/questionable choice/bad choice/oh good grief" based on what I see, don't you?

I would definitely not call tricaps endgame. Tricaps are midgame at best. You can go hardcore and try to do multiples in a night, but just a single run is easy content, it's on the very first planet, after all, I'm not even sure there's an MR cap. I see brand new players popping into tricap bounties. You really only need to have 1 or 2 players with decent amps and a basically modded sniper to complete a Tricap. Better choices make it easier and faster, but you can easily complete one with simple, early gear. It's one boss at a time that doesn't attack often and some annoying voms that occasionally make it invulnerable if you don't weed them out. While it can take you out if you aren't paying attention and standing in lasers or AOEs it generally won't OHKO you unless you have no surviveability mods on at all. If you need anymore proof it's not endgame content, then it's the primary way to get arcanes and to rank up focus, which are basic gear/skills you would use for any level content. If you needed endgame gear to get endgame gear it wouldn't make much sense.

Pretty much anything in the 'normal' course of the game is casual content. I wouldn't even call Orphix Venom, which is what brought this discussion up, End Game content. Also, I don't think I ever said 'End Game content' anyway. I said, or at least I meant, 'high level content'. This includes enemies +100, in endurance situations like +1 hour long survivals, especially in Steel Path with increased armor/health pools. I know lots of people do don't even consider that to be high level, it's +300 or nothing, lol. But I'm not that discerning, for plenty of people Steel Path or level 5 Lich missions is hard enough. Tricaps aren't end game OR high level. I can't recall what level Hydrolyst is but I'm pretty sure it and the Voms it summons are well below 100 unless you're on Steel Path.

21 minutes ago, (PSN)guzmantt1977 said:

Why shouldn't that same for the companions? If literally everything works for those, would that totally trivialize most of the rest of the game? 

Surviveability might be the main thing players use to choose sentinels right now, but it SHOULDN'T be. Other sentinels and pets can do so many other useful things you would want that would require you to make a choice based on what you need it to do aside from just stay alive. Also I don't see how a companion being immortal would trivialize anything in the game really, that's ridiculous. Companions are useful if for no other reason than they give radar, vacuum and some increased healing and shields and whatnot, but they hardly give game-breaking assistance. If having a companion up somehow trivialized the game for high level players, why wouldn't it trivialize it at low levels too? Shouldn't they be even more overpowered there if that was the case? I'm just not seeing it.

31 minutes ago, (PSN)guzmantt1977 said:

And while you talk about having a few choices, I know that I recently asked something along the lines "how many options do we have to have before it stops being 'restricted choices' and just becomes 'choices'"? 

I think the issue isn't that we don't have choices, but more like Sentinels exist that are basically NEVER an option, much less a good option or the best option. If you are presented with 5 flavors of Ice cream, on the surface that sounds like you have a lot of choices. But if those flavors are Vanilla, Chocolate, Triple Chocolate Fudge, Chocolate Rocky Rock and Low Fat Chocolate, then you really only have two choices, Vanilla or a variation of chocolate, and if you're allergic to chocolate you realistically have no choice at all. For it to be a 'choice' all the options have to be realistic. Otherwise the choice is just between 2 things, useable and not useable, which isn't even a choice unless you're a masochist.

48 minutes ago, (PSN)guzmantt1977 said:

And as for making all of them self reviving, I'm not agreeing with you fully on that, but take a good look through the thread. A number of people have complained that even self reviving isn't good enough, they want total immortality. How do you feel about that?

I can't speak for what other people say, I can only speak for what I say. I don't think making them totally immortal would be a problem or in any way overpowered. All you're doing is making them not die, which ideally they should be alive anyway. You're saying yours and others pretty much stays alive for you all the time, it really wouldn't make a difference for you, now would it? If they aren't doing anything overpowered while they are alive then how can it be overpowered for them to just STAY alive all the time? It would just be more work on DE's part because now all surviveability mods are unnecessary. At that point a Sentinel might become more like the parazon, maybe just precept mods only. I think I would like that, but I can see how some people would be upset. Like what do you give all the people who bought Primed Regen with plat, or ducats from Baro? Or the forma people put into their sentinels and pets to make them stand up to something stronger than a slight breeze? It's not really fair to take that away for nothing, you'd have to compensate people somehow. I have Primed Pack Leader and Primed Regen and have put reactors and forma in my sentinels, would all the ducats and forma and reactors be gifted back to me? That might be okay, but I'm sure some people would still find a reason to be mad.

Self-Reviving bypasses the issue of having to refund people, but it's still not perfect. At high levels it would still become a resurrection loop of your companion dying the second it revives if they don't get other buffs too. It's just a smaller change to the system than turning a Companion into a glorified Parazon would be, which is why I think it's the best we can ask for at this point.

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5 hours ago, (PSN)guzmantt1977 said:

Well at least you're being halfway honest about how you are actually actively doing what you accused me of doing.

That makes no sense whatsoever.
You are monopolizing the conversation. It's not cute, so i'm calling you out on it.

5 hours ago, (PSN)guzmantt1977 said:

And again, I do have to point out that others, including people who disagree with me, have clearly said that they are able to have their companions survive through the content. (And also the rather obvious fact that there are in fact options for companions that will self revive without the need for your warframe to die.)

Other people have clearly said their Sentinels don't survive the content.
My Wyrm Prime, with Calculated Redirection, Enhanced Vitality and Metal Fiber, Primed Regen, Synth Deconstruct(to spawn Health Orbs for the Sentinel), doesn't, at least not consistently. If I have to revive someone, want to use Operator or Necramech for a moment or just exist in a tileset with Juno Crewmen, my Sentinel dies.

I'm even using Shepherd(Sentinels gain +300 Health+180 Armor) on my Trinity, which has an on-demand full heal with Blessing, both of which really shouldn't be necessary. It's still not enough, because sooner or later, I have to focus on something else, or exist near an enemy whose design has the byproduct of destroying Sentinels.


I chose Wyrm for its utility.
Vulpaphyla provide different utility, which I am not interested in. (No, I do not consider survival in itself 'utility'. Vulpaphyla have each different precepts that provide utility) They just aren't the tool for the job.

 

5 hours ago, (PSN)guzmantt1977 said:

Since all of that seems to be true, it looks like you are saying that it is actually good game design, huh? 

😉

 

It looks like I'm saying exactly what I'm saying. No wishful thinking of yours will change that. And again, stop it with the condescension.
Also, that's a leap in logic that misses quite a few things. Just because some people don't notice the flaws, doesn't make it suddenly good game design - it just means they probably engage in the content in a different way.

Edited by Her_Lovely_Tentacles
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7 hours ago, (PSN)M00n_Slippers said:

That was a general 'you', including you and anyone else with similar views. If thought that would be obvious but apparently not. Also, I'd need some proof of their anecdotes, because their experience contradicts my own and that of most other people I know doing high level content. Watch anyone who does long endurance runs and their Sentinels are dead after enemy level 100. If there's some secret I don't know about (that isn't just, use Inaros!), I'd like to know it.

Yeah unfortunately English doesn't differentiate between singular you and plural you. But I need to point out once again that there are people who disagree with me on this thread and still say that they kept their pets alive (pathing issues aside). If you want proof of anything someone else claims, check them. 

7 hours ago, (PSN)M00n_Slippers said:

Not really, because we're talking about Djinn and I wouldn't even say it's viable in anything over level 40. It's just awful, or at least it was the last time I tried using it. I point out the Simaris rep because not only is it NOT an inherent feature of the sentinel (the Vulpaphyla mod comes with it, it doesn't need extra investment to get it), so comparing djinn to Vulpaphyla isn't quite the whole story, but by the time a player is likely to get the mod, it's already been outpaced by basically everything else. Hell, Taxon is better than Djinn in my opinion and it isn't even immortal, mod or no.

Check Corvid. He disagrees with me, but said that Djinn is his sentinel of choice a while back. 

7 hours ago, (PSN)M00n_Slippers said:

I would definitely not call tricaps endgame. Tricaps are midgame at best. You can go hardcore and try to do multiples in a night, but just a single run is easy content, it's on the very first planet, after all, I'm not even sure there's an MR cap. I see brand new players popping into tricap bounties. You really only need to have 1 or 2 players with decent amps and a basically modded sniper to complete a Tricap. Better choices make it easier and faster, but you can easily complete one with simple, early gear. It's one boss at a time that doesn't attack often and some annoying voms that occasionally make it invulnerable if you don't weed them out. While it can take you out if you aren't paying attention and standing in lasers or AOEs it generally won't OHKO you unless you have no surviveability mods on at all. If you need anymore proof it's not endgame content, then it's the primary way to get arcanes and to rank up focus, which are basic gear/skills you would use for any level content. If you needed endgame gear to get endgame gear it wouldn't make much sense.

Pretty much anything in the 'normal' course of the game is casual content. I wouldn't even call Orphix Venom, which is what brought this discussion up, End Game content. Also, I don't think I ever said 'End Game content' anyway. I said, or at least I meant, 'high level content'. This includes enemies +100, in endurance situations like +1 hour long survivals, especially in Steel Path with increased armor/health pools. I know lots of people do don't even consider that to be high level, it's +300 or nothing, lol. But I'm not that discerning, for plenty of people Steel Path or level 5 Lich missions is hard enough. Tricaps aren't end game OR high level. I can't recall what level Hydrolyst is but I'm pretty sure it and the Voms it summons are well below 100 unless you're on Steel Path

I tell you what. You seem to know what you are doing when it comes to eidolons. Try to create an account where you are doing successful eidolon hunting (not being carried) without leaving the starter planet. 

Yes the node is on the starter planet, but to contribute to a face off against them successfully, you need that amp. That's the opposite of "early gear". Being carried through endgame content isn't the same as being ready for endgame content. 

Why is it on the starter planet then? It's motivation, we see something huge and apparently indestructible at our level, and gives us something to strive towards. 

And sorry but, no. Arcanes are not "basic" gear, and unlocked focus trees aren't "basic" skills, by any stretch of the imagination. And I'm reasonably sure that you want both of those, for your version "high level" content. 

7 hours ago, (PSN)M00n_Slippers said:

Surviveability might be the main thing players use to choose sentinels right now, but it SHOULDN'T be. Other sentinels and pets can do so many other useful things you would want that would require you to make a choice based on what you need it to do aside from just stay alive. Also I don't see how a companion being immortal would trivialize anything in the game really, that's ridiculous. Companions are useful if for no other reason than they give radar, vacuum and some increased healing and shields and whatnot, but they hardly give game-breaking assistance. If having a companion up somehow trivialized the game for high level players, why wouldn't it trivialize it at low levels too? Shouldn't they be even more overpowered there if that was the case? I'm just not seeing it.

If they don't give such assistance, then why would you be bothered if they aren't around? And yes, there is a quantum leap in the game, that happens for us when we build our first companion. I'd guess that's why it happens when we are at the level to leave the starter planet, because of the same functions that you mentioned. 

7 hours ago, (PSN)M00n_Slippers said:

I think the issue isn't that we don't have choices, but more like Sentinels exist that are basically NEVER an option, much less a good option or the best option. If you are presented with 5 flavors of Ice cream, on the surface that sounds like you have a lot of choices. But if those flavors are Vanilla, Chocolate, Triple Chocolate Fudge, Chocolate Rocky Rock and Low Fat Chocolate, then you really only have two choices, Vanilla or a variation of chocolate, and if you're allergic to chocolate you realistically have no choice at all. For it to be a 'choice' all the options have to be realistic. Otherwise the choice is just between 2 things, useable and not useable, which isn't even a choice unless you're a masochist.

Then that sounds like a sentinels vs pets issue, which as I said isn't something that I have weighed in on. And fun fact many people who are allergic to chocolate, are actually allergic to roaches/insects, not the chocolate itself.... The fact that your chocolate can contain up to around 60 insect fragments per 100 grams before it gets pulled off the shelf is one of the things that most people don't seem to ever think about. 

7 hours ago, (PSN)M00n_Slippers said:

I can't speak for what other people say, I can only speak for what I say. I don't think making them totally immortal would be a problem or in any way overpowered. All you're doing is making them not die, which ideally they should be alive anyway. You're saying yours and others pretty much stays alive for you all the time, it really wouldn't make a difference for you, now would it? If they aren't doing anything overpowered while they are alive then how can it be overpowered for them to just STAY alive all the time? It would just be more work on DE's part because now all surviveability mods are unnecessary. At that point a Sentinel might become more like the parazon, maybe just precept mods only. I think I would like that, but I can see how some people would be upset. Like what do you give all the people who bought Primed Regen with plat, or ducats from Baro? Or the forma people put into their sentinels and pets to make them stand up to something stronger than a slight breeze? It's not really fair to take that away for nothing, you'd have to compensate people somehow. I have Primed Pack Leader and Primed Regen and have put reactors and forma in my sentinels, would all the ducats and forma and reactors be gifted back to me? That might be okay, but I'm sure some people would still find a reason to be mad.

Self-Reviving bypasses the issue of having to refund people, but it's still not perfect. At high levels it would still become a resurrection loop of your companion dying the second it revives if they don't get other buffs too. It's just a smaller change to the system than turning a Companion into a glorified Parazon would be, which is why I think it's the best we can ask for at this point.

Nope I never said that. I said that I choose between the options available to me, so as to get the job done. If I'm facing content where I am expecting them to die, I can switch to one of the options where them dying won't be an issue. It's similar to when we went up against the Wolf. I switched from status builds, to high crit damage builds. 

But I remember the forums being flooded by people who claimed everything from "it's unkillable" to "this is BS! I'm a veteran of the game and it is impossible for my preferred build to not instantly decimate every enemy in the game". Why were so many people having difficulty? It seemed to me that they were in a self inflicted rut, blindly following a meta which didn't apply to the situation they faced, and refusing to modify the approach they took. 

One of the lasting memories I have of that time was a Hydron run, where two people bailed as soon as they heard the howl (one was the host) and the next guy in line for host was a lower MR player with inappropriate gear. I thought for sure I'd get host migrated out again. But when I loaded in I saw that glorious Tenno tossing out spectres like there was no tomorrow. He had held off the Wolf and the Grineer long enough for me to load in and start pounding on him. As far as I am concerned that Tenno took MVP for that entire nightwave season, because he was able to assess the situation, and make excellent choices from what he had available. He was able to do what the high MR vets who were whining about everything couldn't, or refused to do. 

That's sort of how I see this situation. People who have choices, but want to demand that the game be altered to make their inappropriate gear choices, viable. 

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8 hours ago, (PSN)guzmantt1977 said:

I tell you what. You seem to know what you are doing when it comes to eidolons. Try to create an account where you are doing successful eidolon hunting (not being carried) without leaving the starter planet.

Yes the node is on the starter planet, but to contribute to a face off against them successfully, you need that amp. That's the opposite of "early gear". Being carried through endgame content isn't the same as being ready for endgame content. 

Why is it on the starter planet then? It's motivation, we see something huge and apparently indestructible at our level, and gives us something to strive towards. 

And sorry but, no. Arcanes are not "basic" gear, and unlocked focus trees aren't "basic" skills, by any stretch of the imagination. And I'm reasonably sure that you want both of those, for your version "high level" content.

I by no means claim to be the best player around. I'm MR 27, so I've been here playing warframe a while and know a thing or two, but I know people with lower MRs than me who are way better than I am. I didn't get into eidolons or focus until about MR 18, because Eidos seemed really intimidating and I didn't really understand how the focus worked very well, but once I did them I realized they weren't actually as difficult as they seemed, and I had terrible builds, non-forma'd everything, etc. I still use a Volt and Oberon build that doesn't have any forma in them, lol. I'm sinking all my forma into other things. I'm very active in helping newer players in my clan and alliance and I find most players who are active get into Eidolons between MR 12-16, and many of them go about it with way more preparation than I had when I started, they've got 5 forma'd frames and Rubico and Lanka rivens! Granted not everyone does this, everyone's experience is different, but I stand by saying Eidolons are 'midgame' content.

I guess I didin't clarify my meaning well when I said arcanes and focus schools were basic gear. I meant they were basic to perform high level content, by which I mean long endurance runs or heavily coordinated speed runs of Eidolons where you get 5 tricaps in a night or Solo Profit taker in 3 minutes kind of thing. Do you need arcanes and focus to complete the star chart? No. Do you need them to do Eidolons or Profit Taker? No. Do you need them for Arbitrations or Steel path? No, but now we're finally starting to get to a place where they are something you're going to be actively wanting to make your life easier. The fact that they aren't necessary for those activities is why I don't consider those activities 'end game' or 'high level'. Sure, Eidolons provide a teaser for the newbies, they are big and scary looking, but especially since they are a bounty now, it's a teaser that is not meant to be too far off. Like I said, MR 12-16 players usually start doing Teralysts on their own or with fellow newbies and the occasional Tricap with some better help.

8 hours ago, (PSN)guzmantt1977 said:

If they don't give such assistance, then why would you be bothered if they aren't around? And yes, there is a quantum leap in the game, that happens for us when we build our first companion. I'd guess that's why it happens when we are at the level to leave the starter planet, because of the same functions that you mentioned.

When you're new, the little bit of health and shields your sentinel provides feels amazing and can really save you, and to be honest giving your enemies something else to shoot at other than you is pretty helpful too. But as you get better you end up not needing that stuff anymore. I don't have healing on any of my sentinels, just a bit of shield charging for emergencies, because I can heal myself in much faster ways now. As players get better in the game, companions provide 2, maybe 3, primary functions. The two most important ones are vaccum/fetch and animal instinct, (I'd say the third function is as a stat stick, just tossing on Gladiator or Vigilante mods on your sentinels weapon to boost your own). Drawing in pick-ups, and enemy radar. This is a basic utility that in most games isn't tied behind a piece of gear, it's just an inherent mechanic of the game. Sometimes there are skills you can rank up to make them better, but a lot of the time, not. Warframe has chosen to tie these basic utilities to a generally quite squishy and usually very killable roving target that breaks down as soon as the enemies start getting difficult. It comes down to a quality of life issue. It's a pain in the ass, and for what? To punish people who enjoy fighting high level enemies? It's not that Companions provide some kind of OP necessity people need, it's that they provide something that you usually take for granted.

I'll admit if you had to you could put on Enemy Sense or more loot radar on your frame, if you really needed it, but there is no other way, to my knowledge, to draw in items from more than the standard meter or so unless you use an augment and the helminth system and change out an ability and waste a mod slot and burn energy using the ability, and until very recently that was locked to one frame. People generally only put radar on because Warframes spawn system in survival is so bad anyway, there are barely enough enemies to keep up with life support even in low level survivals: enemy radar alerts enemies from far off of your location and makes them run to you so they get there faster. That's the primary point of it, not even the radar. Without Animal Instinct you start needed two mod slots just to get enough radar to make that difference (you need it a big distance out to catch the enemies spawning in). usually people already need to fill a mod slot on their frame just to get enough. Does that make sense to you? To devote TWO MODS SLOTS on your frame just to fix the broken spawns on survivals? Well, it doesn't make sense to me.

That's why it doesn't make sense for companions to die permanently in a mission, because they provide a utility that feels like it should be a basic mechanic to the game and not tied behind companions in the first place. That's why people are honestly fine if all the Companions does is just provide radar and vacuum. It's not that a companion provides any game breaking power, to many of us it feels like NOT having one breaks the game in a negative way in it's own right. It just makes the game not fun. It's not fun for me to walk over a corpse a few times just to get my energy. Energy needs are an issue on it's own unless you're using Zenurik, in my opinion, but that's not for this thread.

8 hours ago, (PSN)guzmantt1977 said:

I said that I choose between the options available to me, so as to get the job done. If I'm facing content where I am expecting them to die, I can switch to one of the options where them dying won't be an issue. It's similar to when we went up against the Wolf. [...] That's sort of how I see this situation. People who have choices, but want to demand that the game be altered to make their inappropriate gear choices, viable. 

Look, the primary options of undying pets, Vulpaphylas (and Djinn, I guess, but I'd say there's a reason why most people don't use it even if someone else says it's their personal main), were just added in August of last year, they are very recent. And they were added pretty much because DE knows this is an issue, that pets die too easily. That's why most of the infested pets abilities confuse or blind or blight enemies instead of just attacking them--to make the pet live longer. Same with the Vasca Kavat before them, it can heal itself and is quite tanky compared to previous pets.

And what the heck is wrong with wanting something that sucks to be better? I don't understand this 'get good' mentality. If I wanted to be horrible, I could claim anyone who claims their companions are fine as they are just suck and don't do anything remotely difficult and that's why their companions don't ever die. But I'm giving them the benefit of the doubt here and assuming that isn't the case. I don't know if we have actual stats on what companions people use, but if we did I assume it would be something like Helios Prime, Taxon, because it's the starter sentinel, Smeeta Kavat and then everything else much further down. Vulpaphylas are rising quick because they are self-reviving, but they are still pretty new, some people still haven't touched the Deimos content yet for some reason. There's probably a good number using Dethcube Prime and Carrier Prime too. Personally I use Dethcube a lot for the augment that gives energy. It holds up pretty well, even in Steel Path, but in Orphix Venom it is reliably dead before even the 20th Eidolon.

I really just don't see a problem with making companions better at surviving and encouraging people to use other sentinels and pets instead of just the Vulpaphyla/Djinn in situations where your companion will take heavy fire without you there--situations with are going to only increase in the future as integrate Necromechs more, use the operator more, get tougher enemies and more sentients. Like, why are they even here if not to be used? At this rate almost all of them will be left in the dust without some significant improvements. What kind of issue would they cause if they were able to be used in more diverse situations because they were immortal or self-resurrecting? Please give some answer to that question because I don't understand.

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2 hours ago, (PSN)M00n_Slippers said:

I guess I didin't clarify my meaning well when I said arcanes and focus schools were basic gear. I meant they were basic to perform high level content, by which I mean long endurance runs or heavily coordinated speed runs of Eidolons where you get 5 tricaps in a night or Solo Profit taker in 3 minutes kind of thing. Do you need arcanes and focus to complete the star chart? No. Do you need them to do Eidolons or Profit Taker? No. Do you need them for Arbitrations or Steel path? No, but now we're finally starting to get to a place where they are something you're going to be actively wanting to make your life easier. The fact that they aren't necessary for those activities is why I don't consider those activities 'end game' or 'high level'. Sure, Eidolons provide a teaser for the newbies, they are big and scary looking, but especially since they are a bounty now, it's a teaser that is not meant to be too far off. Like I said, MR 12-16 players usually start doing Teralysts on their own or with fellow newbies and the occasional Tricap with some better help.

So "basic" gear for "endgame" players? At that point it's really not going to qualify as basic anymore. And Eidolons generally comes when you're pretty much at the end of the star chart (TWW). That's why I do choose to classify it as endgame, because we have to be pretty close to the end of the game to start doing it. Now I admit it can be done at MR 5, but like you I have a feeling that many players won't really be doing them in earnest until they're far beyond what we'd normally associate with a newbie at MR5. I know that I certainly didn't start that until like you I was further along in my journey, within the 12-16 range that you mentioned. But like you mentioned MR itself doesn't directly signify ability or aptitude.

 

2 hours ago, (PSN)M00n_Slippers said:

When you're new, the little bit of health and shields your sentinel provides feels amazing and can really save you, and to be honest giving your enemies something else to shoot at other than you is pretty helpful too. But as you get better you end up not needing that stuff anymore. I don't have healing on any of my sentinels, just a bit of shield charging for emergencies, because I can heal myself in much faster ways now. As players get better in the game, companions provide 2, maybe 3, primary functions. The two most important ones are vaccum/fetch and animal instinct, (I'd say the third function is as a stat stick, just tossing on Gladiator or Vigilante mods on your sentinels weapon to boost your own). Drawing in pick-ups, and enemy radar. This is a basic utility that in most games isn't tied behind a piece of gear, it's just an inherent mechanic of the game. Sometimes there are skills you can rank up to make them better, but a lot of the time, not. Warframe has chosen to tie these basic utilities to a generally quite squishy and usually very killable roving target that breaks down as soon as the enemies start getting difficult. It comes down to a quality of life issue. It's a pain in the ass, and for what? To punish people who enjoy fighting high level enemies? It's not that Companions provide some kind of OP necessity people need, it's that they provide something that you usually take for granted.

Those pickups were what I was mainly thinking of when I mentioned the quantum leap for the newbies. I've told newbies I was helping to scrap the mods on their companions and put on vacuum mods first, because I know it'll help their resource gathering, as much as it helps them pull in the energy they need. And again if those are the main utilities you're interested in, for that type of content, we can achieve that with the ones that self revive, one of which has been around for quite some time. So I can't agree that it's a punishment.

2 hours ago, (PSN)M00n_Slippers said:

Look, the primary options of undying pets, Vulpaphylas (and Djinn, I guess, but I'd say there's a reason why most people don't use it even if someone else says it's their personal main), were just added in August of last year, they are very recent. And they were added pretty much because DE knows this is an issue, that pets die too easily. That's why most of the infested pets abilities confuse or blind or blight enemies instead of just attacking them--to make the pet live longer. Same with the Vasca Kavat before them, it can heal itself and is quite tanky compared to previous pets.

You mean 2013 in Djinn's case? As far the sentinels/pets dying during long endurance runs, I seem to recall that DE clearly said that they don't actually build with those in mind, and that they were focused on the bitesize players. Steel path only got added in July last year (very recent?), and I think arbitrations were added in late 2018?

 

3 hours ago, (PSN)M00n_Slippers said:

And what the heck is wrong with wanting something that sucks to be better? I don't understand this 'get good' mentality. If I wanted to be horrible, I could claim anyone who claims their companions are fine as they are just suck and don't do anything remotely difficult and that's why their companions don't ever die. But I'm giving them the benefit of the doubt here and assuming that isn't the case. I don't know if we have actual stats on what companions people use, but if we did I assume it would be something like Helios Prime, Taxon, because it's the starter sentinel, Smeeta Kavat and then everything else much further down. Vulpaphylas are rising quick because they are self-reviving, but they are still pretty new, some people still haven't touched the Deimos content yet for some reason. There's probably a good number using Dethcube Prime and Carrier Prime too. Personally I use Dethcube a lot for the augment that gives energy. It holds up pretty well, even in Steel Path, but in Orphix Venom it is reliably dead before even the 20th Eidolon.

No idea about the stats. But I see you're comparing different content, and yet seem to be assuming that the gear which works for one should also be viable in the other. Tell me, do you take your Eidolon hunting loadout when you walk the Steel Path, or the Arbitrations? By the logic of "it works well in X, so it should be viable in Y" shouldn't we all be able to do that, and if we get slapped about, should we then not claim that the game is poorly designed? Or is it a case of choosing appropriate gear based on the task we are expecting to do for one, and complaining for the other?

3 hours ago, (PSN)M00n_Slippers said:

I really just don't see a problem with making companions better at surviving and encouraging people to use other sentinels and pets instead of just the Vulpaphyla/Djinn in situations where your companion will take heavy fire without you there--situations with are going to only increase in the future as integrate Necromechs more, use the operator more, get tougher enemies and more sentients. Like, why are they even here if not to be used? At this rate almost all of them will be left in the dust without some significant improvements. What kind of issue would they cause if they were able to be used in more diverse situations because they were immortal or self-resurrecting? Please give some answer to that question because I don't understand.

And again, I haven't spoken about not balancing the sentinels against the pets, but that's not really what this thread is about, it's about making them immortal, point blank.

And like I said in the past, I really believe that making them all immortal would mean that many people would then "just not bother" to ever change their preferred companion, or whichever build their favourite clickbait youtuber called "the last companion build you'll ever need, zomg this pwns". I mean, look at the nature of this thread, instead of simply switching to a self reviving option while doing the event, the majority choose to blame the game for them not being able to keep a pet alive through a tough run. That's not fostering diversity, it's demanding to never have to adapt to the mission.

Now I'm not saying that it'll do that to everyone, every time, some of us will still think through the pros and cons when we are heading into content, I reckon folks like you have a decent chance of pausing to think before heading into the content, but I honestly don't think that the majority will, given some of the things I've seen. (Getting major WOSS flashbacks here.)

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20 hours ago, (PSN)guzmantt1977 said:

So "basic" gear for "endgame" players? At that point it's really not going to qualify as basic anymore. And Eidolons generally comes when you're pretty much at the end of the star chart (TWW). That's why I do choose to classify it as endgame, because we have to be pretty close to the end of the game to start doing it.

I think we just have different ideas about where 'the campaign' ends. I can understand why you would place it after completing the star chart, it makes sense in it's way. For me though, I feel like the star chart is practically the tutorial. After completing the star chart I had barely felt I'd started in on the game, you can rush through the star chart very quickly. I think a lot of people share that opinion, since for ages everyone complained warframe 'has no end game'. The midgame would be building all your frames, collecting the weapons, making your arcanes and focus, and then the end game would be using them in Arbitration, Steel Path and Endurance runs farming resources and working on your dojo and trade stonks and fashion frame, etc. But, I can see how for a lot of people, end game is just 'stuff to do after the campaign'. I think of it more as, 'stuff to do once you've completed everything in the game'. What do you do once you've done everything.

At that point you definitely would have a few arcanes and some focus--maybe not maxed, but you're working on it, that's when you start trying to do more tricaps in a night and honing your skills, doing more long endurance runs where the levels get really high to farm resources for your dojo or cracking relics for sets to make plat, or kuva to roll rivens. Once you have everything, those are your main activities, and those are the activities where the flimsiness of companions really starts to become frustrating, especially since resource farming and keeping up life support tends to be integral to the activity, so losing your companion is especially annoying and in some cases can make it difficult to continue, or at least harder in a way that probably has more to do with a cheap shot by a stray corpus bomb or bad ai than any lack of skill on your part or failure to tank up your companion. Although in Tricaps and in Orphix Venom and some other activities that I would call 'midgame' or mid level content (60-130, I guess, like Lich missions) many companions already start to struggle, (seriously, the five star non-SP bounty tends to kill off whatever companion I have before the end and I think that's pretty solidly not end game by either of our definitions, right? For me it's the tox clouds, my companions just walk through it or stand in it and die. In OVE, my Predasite has gone down as early as the 8th Orphix, which is barely over the completion points requirement, though I was able to revive it that time).

22 hours ago, (PSN)guzmantt1977 said:

Those pickups were what I was mainly thinking of when I mentioned the quantum leap for the newbies. I've told newbies I was helping to scrap the mods on their companions and put on vacuum mods first, because I know it'll help their resource gathering, as much as it helps them pull in the energy they need. And again if those are the main utilities you're interested in, for that type of content, we can achieve that with the ones that self revive, one of which has been around for quite some time. So I can't agree that it's a punishment.

Yes, you are correct that there exist 1 sentinel and 1 pet (in 3 'flavors') that currently self-resurrect. Self-resurrecting doesn't help them to do literally anything other than be a radar/vacuum slave, but as that IS the use that most veterans use companions for, they do fulfill that need. So why would we want or require this trait, or even immortality, on every companion?

I believe we both agree that many companions need some work or maybe a Prime or Prisma/Vandal/Wraith version to help them out. While there are some stand outs that we've all mentioned I think you would agree that there are some pretty flimsy sentinels too. I've really been wanting a Prime Djinn, myself, if for no other reason than to make it tanky enough that I don't have the resurrection notification text up the whole mission on my UI while I show off the pretty Gazal Djinn skin. If DE could just buff all companions enough that they could survive anything your warframe could survive with similar investment (like, scaling armor or something, I don't know), then we'd be happy with that, but because of the limitations of being NPCs, it seems unrealistic to believe there is any way to do that that isn't functional immortality anyway, because you know they will still die to standing in toxin clouds or in front of Heavy Gunners or Corpus grenades or something. It also seems strange to give Sentinels more armor/health than war frames, but that's just me. I just think for a lot of us, immortality seems like a 'why not?' kind of thing. Aside from issues I mentioned before about changing mods and compensating people with primed companion mods, I really can't see how it would be anything more powerful than a nice QOL thing. The good it would do outweighs the bad, in my opinion.

21 hours ago, (PSN)guzmantt1977 said:

You mean 2013 in Djinn's case? As far the sentinels/pets dying during long endurance runs, I seem to recall that DE clearly said that they don't actually build with those in mind, and that they were focused on the bitesize players. Steel path only got added in July last year (very recent?), and I think arbitrations were added in late 2018?

Reawaken wasn't added until 2018. Again, self-resurrection isn't an inherent trait of Djinn, it requires a mod purchased from Cimaris. And many aspects of Djinn were pretty bugged for months after that time. They didn't actually work right until more recently. At times it still doesn't function as advertised. That might be why I remember it not working well. I think I was trying to use it in conjunction with Sacrifice and the Djinn died so quickly it could never get around to actually reviving me, it was stuck resurrecting itself the whole time. So I never bothered to use it again. As you said, Arbitrations were added in 2018 as well, a few months after Rewaken mod as it happens. Maybe those things are connected? Maybe DE introduced the first self-reviving sentinel right around the time they launched the first endgame endurance based game mode? Warframe Illuminati~

But regardless of when SP and Arbitration were introduced, people have been doing long endurance runs for way longer than that, those are just recent game modes introduced that give additional rewards to people who were already doing endurance runs on the regular star chart and wanted a way to either increase the difficulty and rewards, and/or bypass boring early levels of Defense or Survival (or Interception or Excavation or Disruption, but those are less popular).

21 hours ago, (PSN)guzmantt1977 said:

No idea about the stats. But I see you're comparing different content, and yet seem to be assuming that the gear which works for one should also be viable in the other. Tell me, do you take your Eidolon hunting loadout when you walk the Steel Path, or the Arbitrations? By the logic of "it works well in X, so it should be viable in Y" shouldn't we all be able to do that, and if we get slapped about, should we then not claim that the game is poorly designed? Or is it a case of choosing appropriate gear based on the task we are expecting to do for one, and complaining for the other?

An infested survival at level 300 is similar whether it's in Arbitration, Steel Path or a regular Star Chart node, the differences in gear are small, for the most part they are going to be very similar. Some small differences would be you can't put energy pads down as often in SP so you may want to prioritize getting energy through other means, and in Arbitration having bleed out on your frame isn't going to do anything, and of course on a regular star chart node it's going to take you a heck of a lot longer to get the levels that high, but generally you wouldn't waste mod space on bleed-out anyway, and if you're spamming health pads for energy you're going to find yourself in trouble a lot wherever you are. Comparing these activities is not the same as comparing Eidolons and Steel Path. I group them together for a reason--they are endurance runs against large groups of high level enemies with minimal differences except in their rewards. They require similar gear and have similar issues when it comes to pets. Eidolon has it's own issues with pets dying, but it's really not a big problem for me personally there, that I've noticed. My Prime Carrier dies all the time as soon as the Gantulyst lasers me once and I don't take note until I see it says DEAD as I'm loading into Cetus. Speaking of, I should probably switch that out for something else, that's an old part of my build, I mostly used Carrier for increased ammo for my sniper, if I recall. I probably don't need that anymore, it does a lot more damage now, I don't waste much ammo.)

22 hours ago, (PSN)guzmantt1977 said:

And like I said in the past, I really believe that making them all immortal would mean that many people would then "just not bother" to ever change their preferred companion, or whichever build their favourite clickbait youtuber called "the last companion build you'll ever need, zomg this pwns". I mean, look at the nature of this thread, instead of simply switching to a self reviving option while doing the event, the majority choose to blame the game for them not being able to keep a pet alive through a tough run. That's not fostering diversity, it's demanding to never have to adapt to the mission.

Now I'm not saying that it'll do that to everyone, every time, some of us will still think through the pros and cons when we are heading into content, I reckon folks like you have a decent chance of pausing to think before heading into the content, but I honestly don't think that the majority will, given some of the things I've seen. (Getting major WOSS flashbacks here.)

While I understand your fears there, I feel like people already do that. They choose the companion that's most reliable and use it for basically everything. I can't promise that if  companions became immortal that would change. Maybe for some, they would get a Vasca (cuz it can revive them) and use that for everything, or a smeeta (for great bonuses) and use that for everything, or, I don't know, Oxylus because they like to farm apothics and just never change them out. But I feel that for more people, it would open up the variety of companions they use a lot more. I definitely know there are people who would love to use a Smeeta, love to use the Wyrm, etc, here and there but because they tend to get knocked out easily, feel like they have to avoid using them in the majority of content. I know I would at least. I basically never use Kubrows, Helminth Charger, Moa or Predasites unless I'm forced for some reason (in OVE I use Vizier to heal the Mech because it's one of the few things that can and it frustrates me so much), not to mention Diriga or vanilla shade or carrier. Making all companions better at surviving, or even immortal, I think would do more good than harm when it comes to encouraging the use of these little used companions. It's one of the few things that would make a difference because even if you gave them some really cool power, no one is going to use them unless they can stick around for a whole mission in most content.

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