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Railjack (the spaceflight portion) cannot be a fun gamemode until Tether/Munition Vortex/Void Hole gets nerfed, Hard.


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I know how this community react veery negatively to the word "Nerf". And I know a lot of people here seems to think "absolute braindead easy" is "fun". "Power Fantasy" and what not. But still, this has to be said.  For the sake of having an viable gamemode.

Right now Railjack gameplay is dull to the extreme. The pilot, or rather, Tether do 90% of the work. Launch Tether, tap it once. Boom, whole wave of fighter gone. Rinse and repeat. No actual shooting, no dogfight. Just AoE insta nuke over and over again. 2 minutes then all the fighters gone. What's left is to drive up to the crewship and the Artillery gunner shoot it. Another guy holed up down at the engineering bay to fill up. And the 4th person... I guess repair the ship? Oh and people yell at you for sitting in the gunner seat and doing things.  The point is, there's not really a lot for 3 people in the railjack to do. Even for the pilot, there's not a lot to do. Tether borderlines play the game for you.  

"Yeah well if you don't like Tether don't use it and play solo" I know some of you are thinking this right this moment. Then Why don't DE just make a button that you can press to instantly kill everything on the map and lead you directly to the Victory screen? Or another button to instantly give you 1 trillion kuva and mr30 and all the gears in the game. If you don't like that button, don't press it. Does that sounds reasonable? Do you want to play that game?

I'm not asking for MLG pro l33t aim or an ultrarealistic space flight simulator . I'm simply asking for a degree of engaging gameplay. You know, a video game, where people do things.  And I do not see any other way out of this situation than to nerf Tether/ Munition Vortex/ Void Hole.  There's no "Power Fantasy" if the enemy offer 0 resistance and basically gets deleted as soon as they appear. This is not a recipe for a viable game mode in a supposedly Action/Shooter game. In its current form, the spaceflight portion of Railjack is simply not engaging at all.  

I have watched the devstream and I am aware that DE is going to introduce more additional objectives/interactions to Railjack. Making it less of a content island. Which is very nice. BUT, that still doesn't change that the fact that the spaceflight portion of Railjack have basically no gameplay. If the Railjack has no gameplay, why even have it in the game in the first place? To exist as an additional chore to do? A vehicle to move your squad from point A to point B and that's it? (like the "space" portion of Scarlett Spear) 

And no, I do not want to make Railjack extra tedious either. I played Railjack back in release when Void Hole and Munition Vortex costed 300 plat as opposed to being giving away like free candy. I understand that it's a giant pain in the butt to chase down and kill 60 something fighters. It cease being fun at that point. So if DE ever nerf these Nuke Avionics, then they should reduce the number of fighters to kill also. Something more reasonable like... 30 to 40 max, not 60-80.  The Gunners can pitch in and help shoot down enemies of course, as opposed to having the slot virtually abandoned.  

Keep in mind that Command Intrinsic is coming so that would give DE an excuse to make Railjack a bit more engaging for all participating players, as they don't have to account for solo players anymore. 

Two possible ways to nerf to these Avionics:  

1. Simplest way is to add cooldown to them. It's obvious that the Flux mechanic is nowhere near enough to regulate the power of these Ablities. They need some kind of cooldown so they cannot be constantly spammed. Maybe that would free up the poor Engineer in the bay from the refilling duty.  

2. Nullifiers bubble. Apply the same solution from base Warframe into Railjack. Have something block Enemy abilities that needed to be destroyed. Or even a Nullifier space base that needs to be boarded and disable. 

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44 minutes ago, o0Despair0o said:

They already nerfed voidhole once.

If they nerf it even more, and tether along with it, we might as well remove battle avionics completely.

And what was that nerf?  

They made it last less long, but pull enemies in faster and deal damage faster? Oh nice so it's basically the same thing then.  As long as they pull enemies into the center for a nice torpedo or Pilot Intrinsic 10 Ram. And also enemies are much less tanky now so Void Hole can straight up kill without the help of Torpedoes in many cases.  

It wasn't really nerfed at all. It's only supplanted by something much, much worse: Tether.  

 

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If you want to make DPS less of an overwhelming choice. You adress the issue why the game mode demands it on the first place. Lack of mission variety where DPS isn't the only answer.

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vor 5 Stunden schrieb o0Despair0o:

They already nerfed voidhole once.

If they nerf it even more, and tether along with it, we might as well remove battle avionics completely.

And railjack with it. lol

Where is the 'play solo or use recruit' crowd when we need them??? 

Edited by (XBOX)TyeGoo
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Ok so a couple of things:

1. PLEASE FOR THE LOVE OF GOD NO NULLIFIER BUBBLES IN RAILJACK. We already have one rather annoying to deal with Bubble (ie. THE Bubble) which is already testing the limits of people's frustrations, to add Nullifier Bubbles would break even the best of us (especially since that's another bubble that blocks Fwd Artillery shots)

2. I think the answer would have been to just lower the damage that Tether does. Right now it does enough damage to 1-shot all fighters at Gian Point, which is kinda strange considering it's probably originally designed to be a Crowd Control ability.

So maybe halve the damage and you should be fine. Essentially bring it in line with the destructive capabilities of something like Seeker Volley. Same idea probably with Munitions Vortex.

 

On the Void Hole idea, I don't think Void Hole needs to get nerfed. As others have correctly pointed out, Void Hole was already nerfed in that the duration was reduced in favour of more S U C C I N G power. 

5 hours ago, Bakaguya-sama said:

As long as they pull enemies into the center for a nice torpedo or Pilot Intrinsic 10 Ram. And also enemies are much less tanky now so Void Hole can straight up kill without the help of Torpedoes in many cases.

You are correct but that's more of a problem to do with Torpedoes and Ram. I don't think nerfing Void Hole further will produce the desired effect. Unsure about Void Hole being able to destroy enemy fighters by itself, unless you shoot the Void Hole and it hits a Comet (then enemy fighters are being dragged into crashing into a rock which is a completely different kind of effect which I don't think needs to be changed since that kinda requires some level of skill and finesse).

Curious to see what you reckon about what reckon.

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2 hours ago, (XBOX)TyeGoo said:

And railjack with it. lol

Where is the 'play solo or use recruit' crowd when we need them??? 

Maybe read the post first:  

8 hours ago, Bakaguya-sama said:

"Yeah well if you don't like Tether don't use it and play solo" I know some of you are thinking this right this moment. Then Why don't DE just make a button that you can press to instantly kill everything on the map and lead you directly to the Victory screen? Or another button to instantly give you 1 trillion kuva and mr30 and all the gears in the game. If you don't like that button, don't press it. 

 You are seriously telling people to go solo and not use Tether. And recruit people who also dont want to use Tether. Who in their right mind would want to do a mission in an way that takes much longer? Why would I want to take 10 minutes to do a railjack mission when it's possible to do it in 2? 

I want to use the most efficient method possible to complete the mission. But I also want challenging and engaging gameplay. It's a balancing act between  How powerful the players VS how much does the game challenge them. The option to remove shooting from railjack gameplay should not exist. Because when it exist everyone will be using it. 

Let me reiterate: You can't just flush balance down the drain and goes "hurr durr its PvE just dont use it if you don't like it".  If that's the case why not just have a button to instantly kill all enemies on the map and win? Why even have a game anymore? Just go watch a movie or a TV or youtube video show or whatever.   

2 hours ago, Kategari said:

We already have one rather annoying to deal with Bubble (ie. THE Bubble)

I wouldn't mind if DE replace the green healing bubble with nullifier bubble. Just have 1 kind of bubble. The green bubble has pretty much been neutered anyway.  

I like your idea of reducing the damage though. Maybe that's the best course of action. Like Seeker Volley isn't that big of an issue because it simply don't 1 shot a whole wave of Void Proxima fighters.  

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I'm not sure if I agree word-to-word with your post, by I certainly agree that the Spacefights will never be as engaging as possible, especially for Squad play (not Solo), if the Pilot can completely annihilate all Fighter Waves by rolling their face on the Ability Keys.

Be it by nerfing specific Abilities, disallowing Pilots from using Abilities (and re-enabling them in Solo Play via the Command Intrinsic), adding some form of Ability Nullification (tweaking Pulse Turbines and Zeplens to fit that role?) or adding Gamemodes in which "Killing set quantity of Fighters as fast as possible" isn't the only objective.

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Honestly, I feel like one of the most rewarding aspects of Warframe; is once you've done your due-diligence-grind, you can wipe enemies with ease. It's a big part of enjoyment, to work hard for the end game - where things are easy. That being said, I enjoy a good RJ dogfight. I don't think we have to nerf the explosions to enjoy it though. Then again, I don't play with Void Hole or Tether. I use Seeker Volley and Shatter Burst for beautiful space fireworks. 

Clearing out a bunch of grunt fighters fast is a good aspect of the space fight, but I understand your feelings on it. What if, instead of nerfing all of our big guns - we just added some fighters that had increased defenses against avionics? Fighters you had to dog-fight to destroy. Anyways, that's my 2-cents.

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11 hours ago, Bakaguya-sama said:

I know how this community react veery negatively to the word "Nerf".

Under the thread: lots of posts with very negative reaction to the word "nerf" xD

Overall I agree. All AOEs should be nerfed or removed. 

Pilot should have his power reduced to being just a taxi driver with abilities enhancing his piloting only. Currently he does 90% of the job.

Other players should have more FUN things to do, while removing idiotic chores, like crafting, fixing ship or extringuishing flames.

More mission types

Better integration of RJ with the rest of the game and AW

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40 minutes ago, deothor said:

Under the thread: lots of posts with very negative reaction to the word "nerf" xD

Overall I agree. All AOEs should be nerfed or removed. 

Pilot should have his power reduced to being just a taxi driver with abilities enhancing his piloting only. Currently he does 90% of the job.

Other players should have more FUN things to do, while removing idiotic chores, like crafting, fixing ship or extringuishing flames.

More mission types

Better integration of RJ with the rest of the game and AW

Game is losing players because everyone feels disrespected by nerfs

You: More nerfs.

Good move. If they continue catering to you, this game will have no future.

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Picking off 60-90 fighters one by one using the trashy weapons we have? I rather not...

Railjack is also way too squishy to let fighters get close, need to deal with breaches and other useless activities if that happens too. Even if you are in a party it's more efficient to send people off to secondary objectives than mess with fighters, if you are solo it's like experiencing the first circle of hell (i.e. mind numbingly boring).

I'm not saying the current Railjack is fine (quite far from it really) but nerfing the only reprieve we have is the wrong way to go forward.

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From what I understand of your argument here, it's that the battle avionic meta is boring and that pilots do way too much of the work. 

Completely agree with you on the pilot end. It feels like the other roles in general do far less than the pilot, which has lead (among other things) to a meta of 2 on, 2 off (2 players on the ship, 2 flying Archwings) and burnout being pretty fast.

But I do not agree that battle avionics should not be nerfed, for the same reason that AoE weapons should not be nerfed in ground missions.  AoE abilities available to us are a privilege of reaching the end of the Railjack farm. What does not change with that increase in power however is how enemies engage us, or (apart from a larger healthbar) how tough they are. The way that fighters engage us and the range of engagement lends itself to situations where aoe abilities are simply the most effective. If they were able to engage us from a distance and keep us at a distance while not grouping up, we would be encouraged to use more of our toolkit. If special enemies had resistances to these powers, doubly so. They already introduced special crewship shields so that the BFG doesn't one shot every one, something similar is welcome.

Another thing they could implement is to simply make the enemies a hindrance rather than a checkbox. If you don't complete the mission in x amount of time, this fleet will jump in, or this commander will take to the field, etc.

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7 minutes ago, Unimira said:

Picking off 60-90 fighters one by one using the trashy weapons we have? I rather not...

 

12 hours ago, Bakaguya-sama said:

And no, I do not want to make Railjack extra tedious either. I played Railjack back in release when Void Hole and Munition Vortex costed 300 plat as opposed to being giving away like free candy. I understand that it's a giant pain in the butt to chase down and kill 60 something fighters. It cease being fun at that point. So if DE ever nerf these Nuke Avionics, then they should reduce the number of fighters to kill also. Something more reasonable like... 30 to 40 max, not 60-80.  The Gunners can pitch in and help shoot down enemies of course, as opposed to having the slot virtually abandoned.  

 

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Those are the BEST things that make the progression path worthwhile. In addition they are ESSENTIAL to playing advanced levels solo, making solo super fun and often possible. Now I did a ton of Scarlet spear and I seldom found other players really even know how to manage those systems especially when they would be useful to extend the missions. Above and beyond  that they have already added combat mechanics that can nullify those. (That's haha what should be removed). I suppose I am assuming that you making such a statement means you have maxed your intrinsics and weapons and spet sufficient time in void proxima otherwise, this was just a waste of time giving this perspective.

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I think they should do the opposite—make these powers more useful by not treating all three gunners as a single unit. Right now, if two gunners both try to fire a Void Hole, what actually happens is that one of them launches it and the other immediately detonates it. That's not much fun.

Instead, each gunner should be able to manage their own instances of each power. Three Tethers, three Void Holes, etc. That will obviously be incredibly powerful, so maybe reduce the effectiveness of each power to compensate—lower cap on the number of enemies that can be grabbed by a single Tether, etc.

To me, the problem isn't that these powers are too powerful, it's that basically only one guy really gets to use them.

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12 hours ago, DrivaMain said:

If you want to make DPS less of an overwhelming choice. You adress the issue why the game mode demands it on the first place. Lack of mission variety where DPS isn't the only answer.

Bingo. What I would suggest to fix this is to remove the Fighters and Crewships kill requirement. To compensate, Fighters and Crewships will continuously spawn and periodically scale. The Corpus Railjack Preview back in Devstream 150 reshifted the focus on the Points of Interest as the main objectives, with the Fighter and Crewship kill requirement being absent.

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Be careful what you wish for.

Yes, these abilities might be a little too good at their job at times, but do you really want to have to manually destroy 90+ fighters every mission one by one by shooting them with your guns ? Personally I don't. It's great to be able to group enemies together and detonate them in an efficient manner. Warframe has always been about short missions, and before the current era of avionics being really strong, alot of the Railjack missions dragged on to 50+ minutes per clear. Personally , I don't want to get back to this.

I think some balancing is in order, mainly in making the RJ weapons better at killing stuff than they currently are. Should they nerf the existing avionics ? Well maybe a little , but I think they should probably just make the new content less easy to cheeze using these skills. Maybe give corpus ships more immunity to these avionics ? Then again hopefully the "Kill X ships" objectives will be gone in the new railjack, as these are really no fun at all. Give us missions, not just arbitrary amounts of ships to destroy.

But imho it's absolutely fine to be able to clear stuff like earth proxima very fast using your abilties, as long as there are endgame areas where you can't do this.

 

Edited by (PSN)Stealth_Cobra
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I think Void Hole is in a good place right now. Tether, on the other hand, is dumb, boring, and uninteractive. It does the job of an optimal Void Hole/Missile combo while costing half as much energy (and no munitions) and being faster about it. It leaves no space in the mission for gameplay, and strips Railjack itself down to a timer for rewards.

A good way to fix Tether is to make it deal %damage (or none at all), rather than a flat value of "bigger than you".

On another note, the community is the very definition of "No Nerf! Only Challenge!".

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5 hours ago, Xepthrichros said:

Game is losing players because everyone feels disrespected by nerfs

All games needs nerfs. problem is, DE nerfs in LOLSORANDOM mode. Obviously I also dislike idiotic nerfs that fix nothing, but that's DE for you, most of the time.

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Systems in a game should compliment the gameplay. When a system invalidates parts of the gameplay, or makes it so interacting with those parts actually penalizes your team, then it's a bad system. It's not that AOEs are inherently bad, or that exterminate-type missions are either - but when you provide missions focused on killing a specific amount of targets, and then provide a dozen tools for confronting them individually alongside one that compacts every target in all of creation into a ten foot cube within a column of fire and also if more than one player interacts with the hot cube mess it doesn't work right, that's a problem.

If the Railjack side of things was centered more on defending massive convoys or slipping through enemy barricades all while fighting off hundreds of swarming fighters, things like Tether would make a lot more sense. But every other system, from the behavior of the turret weapons to the stamina-like boost system to the shallow body counts of most missions, points towards wanting a game with a much tighter focus. Whether heavy casting powers with cataclysmic results makes sense in the future of Railjack depends on what direction everything goes, but I really hope they pick one direction and stick with it. 

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I agree with the other players who wish not to nerf these abilities just yet.

I'd rather see DE change the combat of RJ in a way that makes them less relevant first, or to consider other activities/mission types, rather than just tune down numbers again. Railjack is too bland in its gameplay loop as is, and if people had alternatives (like asteroid mining missions, or missions where you hijack enemy cargo ships etc.) for earning railjack resources that don't come down to spamming some explosive abilities, this issue would not be as big as it seems now.

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16 hours ago, Unimira said:

Railjack is also way too squishy to let fighters get close, need to deal with breaches and other useless activities if that happens too. Even if you are in a party it's more efficient to send people off to secondary objectives than mess with fighters, if you are solo it's like experiencing the first circle of hell (i.e. mind numbingly boring).

... What have you done to your Railjack?

I am one of a handful (possibly single digit, possibly only) Railjack Captains who don't use ANY of the 'tank' Avionics. I never use Bulk Head nor Hull Weave. And yet my Railjack is never "too squishy to let fighters get close", it might be too squishy to let Crew Ships get close though but I tend to shoot them from over 3km away so that's usually not a problem. I welcome fighters getting close, it makes it easier for me to get a good Shatter Burst out (yes @Bakaguya-sama, I said Shatter Burst, don't @ me) for example. 

Dealing with Breaches is as easy as opening up the Tactical Menu and clicking on them, assuming you have Anastasis (Lvl 10 Engineering). Based on your comment, I'm guessing you don't have Lvl 10 Engineering?

And as someone who regularly plays solo and with a team, I'm loving both. I'm prone to falling asleep during hour long Endurance Runs, but never when I'm in my Railjack. So I dunno what you're doing.

16 hours ago, Bakaguya-sama said:

So if DE ever nerf these Nuke Avionics, then they should reduce the number of fighters to kill also. Something more reasonable like... 30 to 40 max,

We're probably gonna have to agree to disagree mate 'coz I'm of the complete opposite mind. Let's get Triple Digit amount of fighters to destroy and have way more of them on the field at any given point in time. I want to see an overwhelming insane amount of enemy fighters. And have them spread out in such a way that Void Hole isn't an instant clumping mechanic.

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