Incoming Kuva Nukor nerf

[Krankbert]

vor 11 Stunden schrieb Snake551:

Literally every melee weapon in the game modded right does that, what do u do just press e e e e e e e e.

Same as holding left mouse button with nukor.

I dont even remember last time I used primary weapon in this game other than messing around with Lenz.

 

There is no saving grace to nerfing nukor. If it gets too nerfed it just wont be used. Melee will still exist so its not like game will be any different.

There will always me some form of meta overused weapon like nukor. Rather than nerfing buffing weapons 24/7 better rework how elements work because you literally mod everything same way I would like to run gas/cold etc as a viable builds.

There is no saving grace to changing status effects. There will always be some form of meta overused damage type like Viral.

[KittySkin]

1 hour ago, Krankbert said:

There is no saving grace to changing status effects. There will always be some form of meta overused damage type like Viral.

Prior to elemental rework we used to use corrosive vs heavy armored, viral + slash, gas vs corpus and infested on status weapon, pure toxin damage on crit weapons against corpus.

Now its just viral + slash/heat based on weapon type, pure toxin against corpus.

If an elemental rework happens again, it can for sure change the meta, either narrowing it even more, or widening it like it used to be.

Prox immune enemies that need specific elemental dsmage to get the most DPS are not considered, neither before or after rework, like eidolons or orbs.

[_R_o_g_u_e_]

I have an unrolled Nukor riven if anyone wants to buy lol 

[Krankbert]

vor 1 Stunde schrieb KittySkin:

Prior to elemental rework we used to use corrosive vs heavy armored, viral + slash, gas vs corpus and infested on status weapon, pure toxin damage on crit weapons against corpus.

Now its just viral + slash/heat based on weapon type, pure toxin against corpus.

If an elemental rework happens again, it can for sure change the meta, either narrowing it even more, or widening it like it used to be.

Prox immune enemies that need specific elemental dsmage to get the most DPS are not considered, neither before or after rework, like eidolons or orbs.

Exactly.

[Karesz6]

On 2021-01-30 at 4:24 AM, Ace-Bounty-Hunter said:

Enjoy using the Kuva Nukor while you can, Tenno. 

Atomos is lurking around the corner anyway. :)

Rivens stronger, stats lower, mechanics ~same, dps lower. However for 95% of the content it has the same effect.

[SneakyErvin]

19 hours ago, (XBOX)ECCHO SIERRA said:

I get where youre coming from but:

 

1) you used the words "kind of . . . Cedo".

Out of hundreds of weapons in this game there are only a few that can compete with kuva nukor based as a status primer alone. Cedo might be more than adequate to compete as a status proc, but its not like its miles better, and even if it was it would be one of if not the only weapon that can be said for. 

If anything i wouldnt be surprised if DE turns around and nerfs cedo as well.

And its a primary. DE is probably likely to nerf it just for its dominance as a secondary weapon. 

2) even without the primer aspect its still a dominant choice simply in terms of being able to kill things. It hits hard enough vs one target but can hit multiple targets at once. 

In my humble opinion its more efficient for killing enemies than catchmoon ever was. 

Yeah only a few can compete, that doesnt make it a good reason to nerf it since we need to look at the bigger picture as to why it is the case that Kuva Nukor is dominant. It isnt because it is specifically strong (though it is a strong weapon), it is because most every other ranged option is hot trash. Nerfing KN now, when melee is just so much better than anything, would just push us into using melee even more and only having ranged as something that makes melee even stronger. And it would still be KN and Cedo that does the job best.

It doesnt matter how DE would nerf it, since it would either destroy the weapon or make it a pure melee buffer, neither solves anything in the end. And it would be flat out silly to nerf Kuva Nukor now that the glaives have been reworked, since they've made even the worst glaives make pre-nerf catchmoon and the current nukor look like toddlers. And it is yet another melee class that overshadows any ranged option.

DE simply needs to stop nerfing ranged and start balancing melee and ranged together. I mean, the only few times I use ranged weapons now is if I need to do an assassinate for some reason, play Lavos in which case I use Cedo, or when I pull out my Kuva Nukor to get away from mashing E and related combos for a bit.

Something is rotten in the state of DEnmark.

[Jarriaga]

1 hour ago, SneakyErvin said:

Yeah only a few can compete, that doesnt make it a good reason to nerf it since we need to look at the bigger picture as to why it is the case that Kuva Nukor is dominant. It isnt because it is specifically strong (though it is a strong weapon), it is because most every other ranged option is hot trash. Nerfing KN now, when melee is just so much better than anything, would just push us into using melee even more and only having ranged as something that makes melee even stronger. And it would still be KN and Cedo that does the job best.

What if DE have different standards and ballparks for melee vs. ranged? That would make the argument moot if melee is not the point of comparison DE are using regardless of how strong melee may be. If they have decided on melee being their focus then the KN's point of comparison and usage for nerf considerations is other secondaries.

After all, WF has not been focused on the "shooter" aspect of the "looter-shooter" classification ever since wide-area ability map nuking became the de-facto standard playstyle the rest of the game is measured upon ever since ESO was introduced. Thus, moving towards "action looter" away from "looter shooter" means melee is never part of the equation when measuring how good a gun performs. In other words:

Primaries are buffed or nerfed in the context of other primaries. Melee is not considered.

Secondaries are buffed or nerfed in the context of other secondaries. Melee is not considered.

Melee are buffed or nerfed in the context of other melee. Primaries and secondaries are not considered.

[SneakyErvin]

1 minute ago, Jarriaga said:

What if DE have different standards and ballparks for melee vs. range? That would make the argument moot if melee is not the point of comparison DE are using regardless of how strong melee may be. If they have decided on melee being their focus then the KN's point of comparison and usage for nerf considerations is other secondaries.

After all, WF has not been focused on the "shooter" aspect of the "looter-shooter" classification ever since wide-area ability map nuking became the de-facto standard playstyle the rest of the game is measured upon ever since ESO was introduced. Thus, moving towards "action looter" away from "looter shooter" means melee is never part of the equation when measuring how good a gun performs. In other words:

Primaries are buffed or nerfed in the context of other primaries. Melee is not considered.

Secondaries are buffed or nerfed in the context of other secondaries. Melee is not considered.

Melee are buffed or nerfed in the context of other melee. Primaries and secondaries are not considered.

Then DE needs to actually play their own game and get into it really.

They need to realize why some weapons are used more than others within a certain category. They cant assume that it's because they are simply better, they need to figure out that it is because those weapons are most inline with other prefered categories and the rest will never see more use no matter how much they nerf the good ones.

They also need to come up with a proper usage tracker tool and not something that registers when a weapon is simply equipped in a loadout while in a mission. Usage stats are so severely scewed atm due to how usage is tracked and us having 3 weapon type slots to equip. Just because we carry a weapon it doesnt mean we actually use the weapon. I have a chakkhur equipped in every loadout except on wukong and lavos, I barely ever fire a shot with it, yet it looks like I use it alot. The same goes for KN, which I use maybe 5 minutes in a 60 minute endless run, the rest is spent meleeing. It was the same case with Catchmoon, I used it soley to kill arbi drones, but the usage skyrocketed because it was always equipped no matter the mission. 

And DE doesnt nerf in any real context to other weapons of a class, it seems to be purely done based on popularity. If they nerfed based on actual context we wouldnt see the nerfs we get, since they'd at one point see why the weapons are popular, which is because most of the rest are extremely weak. Bramma is the only case where a nerf has been justified since it was just designed for a completely different "punishment" system, so had to be adjusted to fit the new one.

[(XBOX)ECCHO SIERRA]

1 hour ago, Jarriaga said:

What if DE have different standards and ballparks for melee vs. ranged? That would make the argument moot if melee is not the point of comparison DE are using regardless of how strong melee may be. If they have decided on melee being their focus then the KN's point of comparison and usage for nerf considerations is other secondaries.

After all, WF has not been focused on the "shooter" aspect of the "looter-shooter" classification ever since wide-area ability map nuking became the de-facto standard playstyle the rest of the game is measured upon ever since ESO was introduced. Thus, moving towards "action looter" away from "looter shooter" means melee is never part of the equation when measuring how good a gun performs. In other words:

Primaries are buffed or nerfed in the context of other primaries. Melee is not considered.

Secondaries are buffed or nerfed in the context of other secondaries. Melee is not considered.

Melee are buffed or nerfed in the context of other melee. Primaries and secondaries are not considered.

Well, maybe secondaries and primaries *should* be balanced in context with the fact melee exists. 

 

There arent many secondaries that can compete with kuva nukor as a killing tool, or a status primer, let alone both. And the ones that can compete vs single targets cant compete with its AOE. 

 

Good primaries do exist but out of all the ones in the game there is only a few"good" ones that stand out without a lucky riven.

But with mods like CO, WW, BR, there are melee weapons that can hit over 100% status chance *and* guaranteed red crits. Some of these weapons like nikana prime are slash based, to boot. 

They can smack multiple enemies at once. They dont need ammo or reload breaks.

[Jarriaga]

8 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

They also need to come up with a proper usage tracker tool and not something that registers when a weapon is simply equipped in a loadout while in a mission.

Like what? I always see comments about how DE should have a better system, but no concrete examples are ever offered.

Enemies killed with the actual weapon? So those who build a Primer Kuva Nukor/Gaze with little damage are never contributing to usage stats unless they're at low levels?

Shots fired with said weapon? So automatic, beam, and high fire-rate weapons are skewed?

Times you actually pull the trigger? So semi-auto weapons are skewed?

Actual time the weapon is unholstered? So usage increases even if you never fire it as in with the current system for having it in your loadout?

Actual time aiming with the weapon? So hip-firing never increases usage?

I think that DE have no choice but to use the current system in which your Chakkhur usage is artificially increasing because it's the lesser of all evils, and just because this is the system they have to use doesn't mean it can't be used as a barometer due to a lack of better and more accurate alternatives. After all, if you are not taking 2 minutes to remove your Chakkhur from those loadouts then it's most likely that, in a higher-than-average basis, it's because it doesn't really have competition for your playstyle and can fulfill most non-niche roles and you'd rather have it there just in case because it's better than nothing ---or the rest---. 

8 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

And DE doesnt nerf in any real context to other weapons of a class, it seems to be purely done based on popularity. If they nerfed based on actual context we wouldnt see the nerfs we get, since they'd at one point see why the weapons are popular, which is because most of the rest are extremely weak.

I don't agree. I think DE do take the usage context into account. Otherwise Snipers would never be nerfed even though they mostly only see usage in boss battles, and some of them are time-gated. I have a hard time believing a 45 minute Tridolon hunt window with a non-meta average of 3 runs would skew Sniper usage stats above and beyond the 1 and a half hour window you can't do the mission in which most other weapons are a lot more functional and appropriate for horde killing outside abilities.

6 hours ago, (XBOX)ECCHO SIERRA said:

Well, maybe secondaries and primaries *should* be balanced in context with the fact melee exists. 

 Why? What is wrong with different standards per intent? If everything is to follow the same standards then where does it stop? Should Nyx be reworked not because Nyx is bad, but because Saryn and Mesa exist? I don't think that's healthy for the game. It sure does sound attractive for power-or-bust players though.

6 hours ago, (XBOX)ECCHO SIERRA said:

There arent many secondaries that can compete with kuva nukor as a killing tool, or a status primer, let alone both. And the ones that can compete vs single targets cant compete with its AOE. 

As expected of its MR bracket. It is supposed to be better, but as we have discussed several times before, what is your point of reference for comparison? Other weapons within its own MR bracket? Or are you comparing it to weapons in lower brackets that are meant to be weaker? And why is that suddenly a problem when that has always been the case for every single stats-based game ever since the first Final Fantasy on NES? Or do you think your first sword has the same stats as the ones you farm in the final dungeons? Choice is an illusion when stat tiers exist. At some point you are supposed to move on to stronger weapons. The problem is not then the fact that they are powerful, but rather how much more powerful, convenient, and/or useful vs. those other weapons in the same tier because you are not supposed to be comparing them to those in the lower tiers. In other words:

X>Y = This is fine.

X>>>>>>>>>>>>>Y = Not fine.

But how do you then determine what the problem is? You use the rest for contex.

X>Y>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Z = Z is the outlier. It needs a buff.

X>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Y>Z = X is the outlier. It needs a nerf.

Oh, and don't give me the "MR brackets are meaningless because Kuva Nukor is obtained at MR5" excuse. The acquisition loophole does not negate the stats-based MR bracket the weapon belongs to, which correlates to its performance. Otherwise you are implying that the Kuva Brakk, Ogris and Quartakk are weaker than or on par with the base variants because they can be obtained sooner due to the same loophole despite being superior in every way.

Yes, outliers that outperform higher MR weapons do exist. But the existence of outliers that are in need of correction do not negate the entire rest of the system as if the outliers somehow hold more weight than the combined weight of everything else that is consistent.

6 hours ago, (XBOX)ECCHO SIERRA said:

Good primaries do exist but out of all the ones in the game there is only a few"good" ones that stand out without a lucky riven.

Yet most low-MR primaries have higher stats than most mid-tier secondaries. So what's different? Their mods. While Serration is 165%, Hornet Strike is 220%. At some point the gap is narrowed down or inverts thanks to mods alone. You have a problem with the modding system per se rather than the weapon's stats at their core. You would not be using that argument if the stats for Serration and Hornet Strike were inverted. But then who would bother with secondaries at all considering they would not only have weaker base stats, but weaker mods as well? DE decided to give them better mods in order to equalize. 

So how does the comparison become fair? By only comparing against its own category.

6 hours ago, (XBOX)ECCHO SIERRA said:

But with mods like CO, WW, BR, there are melee weapons that can hit over 100% status chance *and* guaranteed red crits. Some of these weapons like nikana prime are slash based, to boot. 

They can smack multiple enemies at once. They dont need ammo or reload breaks.

The problem there is that melee is designed for high risk = high reward but enemies are low risk. We would not be having this conversation if you were dealt true damage that bypassed your abilities, armor and shields if you were hit in melee range to properly balance the risk/reward equation. How many people here saying that melee needs a nerf or primaries need to be buffed to melee levels would be saying that if they took melee damage in accordance to their own melee DPS? 

I'd wager a very low number.

They would instead be crying about melee being unusable because melee enemies hit too hard, and the Infested would be the most hated faction instead of the Corpus, because the current hardest-hitting enemy is a nullifier due to players building around nothing more than abilities.

[(PSN)Double991]

The Kuva Nukor's ability to deal Magnetic, Radiation, Viral/Corrosive, and Heat/Cold all at the same time are what make it top tier. If enemies survive that then my CO melee will finish the job.

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

15 hours ago, (XBOX)ECCHO SIERRA said:

Well, maybe secondaries and primaries *should* be balanced in context with the fact melee exists. 

 

There arent many secondaries that can compete with kuva nukor as a killing tool, or a status primer, let alone both. And the ones that can compete vs single targets cant compete with its AOE. 

 

Good primaries do exist but out of all the ones in the game there is only a few"good" ones that stand out without a lucky riven.

But with mods like CO, WW, BR, there are melee weapons that can hit over 100% status chance *and* guaranteed red crits. Some of these weapons like nikana prime are slash based, to boot. 

They can smack multiple enemies at once. They dont need ammo or reload breaks.

Of course swords don't have ammo or reload....it's a sword.....

If a human swings a sword, yes, they get tired....but do you see any humans swinging those swords....?

Why would something that can jump 50ft in the air and land without breaking its legs get tired swinging a sword? 

The wielder of the sword doesn't get tired...so it should get to keep swinging. 

A gun is still a gun, unless it's technologically crafted to not have ammo. Use a fulmin.

[Venus-Venera]

vor 8 Stunden schrieb (PSN)Double991:

The Kuva Nukor's ability to deal Magnetic, Radiation, Viral/Corrosive, and Heat/Cold all at the same time are what make it top tier. If enemies survive that then my CO melee will finish the job.

Yes.....
Bubonico with 3 procs and max status and primed sure footed will easily replace kuva nukor. I kill small stuff with aoe and the rest in 1-2 seconds with mele. because heaps of procs are already on target and damage is enormous.

I still don't understand the panic surrounding kuva nukor ...

[Berzerkules]

7 minutes ago, Battle.Mage said:

Yes.....
Bubonico with 3 procs and max status and primed sure footed will easily replace kuva nukor. I kill small stuff with aoe and the rest in 1-2 seconds with mele. because heaps of procs are already on target and damage is enormous.

I still don't understand the panic surrounding kuva nukor ...

DE could delete Nukor from the game and it wouldn't matter.....to me. 

Before the Nukor was around I used the Twin Kohmak as utility primer. Thing is a utility beast with 69% base status chance, innate 1.5m punch through and 4 star dispo. IPS weapon built for viral/rad or viral/heat. I could switch back to that thing and absolutely nothing would change. It's pretty much everything in that general direction is getting a whole bunch of stacks of status procs.

That's just one of my possible replacements for Nukor. I also use Kuva Brakk, Cyanex, Zakti Prime, Kuva Kohm, Scourge, Phage, Kuva Ogris, Amprex, Cedo, Proboscis/Mutalist Cernos and Phantasma as utility weapons. There are so many option.

The nukor is just easy to use and convenient. Can throw it on any loadout and pretty much run anything with it. 

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

1 hour ago, Berzerkules said:

DE could delete Nukor from the game and it wouldn't matter.....to me. 

Before the Nukor was around I used the Twin Kohmak as utility primer. Thing is a utility beast with 69% base status chance, innate 1.5m punch through and 4 star dispo. IPS weapon built for viral/rad or viral/heat. I could switch back to that thing and absolutely nothing would change. It's pretty much everything in that general direction is getting a whole bunch of stacks of status procs.

That's just one of my possible replacements for Nukor. I also use Kuva Brakk, Cyanex, Zakti Prime, Kuva Kohm, Scourge, Phage, Kuva Ogris, Amprex, Cedo, Proboscis/Mutalist Cernos and Phantasma as utility weapons. There are so many option.

The nukor is just easy to use and convenient. Can throw it on any loadout and pretty much run anything with it. 

Omg dude dont talk about the kohmak lol.

[(XBOX)ECCHO SIERRA]

4 hours ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

Of course swords don't have ammo or reload....it's a sword.....

If a human swings a sword, yes, they get tired....but do you see any humans swinging those swords....?

Why would something that can jump 50ft in the air and land without breaking its legs get tired swinging a sword? 

The wielder of the sword doesn't get tired...so it should get to keep swinging. 

A gun is still a gun, unless it's technologically crafted to not have ammo. Use a fulmin.

If we're going to use real life concepts to justify the state of melee:

How can a melee weapon a few feet long (if that) smack enemies several meters away?

How can a melee weapon that isnt even sharp cut through multiple enemies at a time?

If a melee weapon can go "through" an enemy, let alone several, wouldnt that be immediately incapacitating if not fatal?

 

Im not suggesting that melee should be nerfed, or guns shouldnt have to reload, or that anything like that.

 

I just think its worth pointing out melee in this game is *by far* the strongest class of weapon and the only reason ranged weapons are really relevant is some enemies are immune to melee because reasons. 

 

Even if my tiberon prime was guaranteed to kill anything in one burst, it would still not compete with melee weapons in many cases because i would be missing out on the chance to slap multiple enemies at once and i would occasionally have to reload. 

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

12 minutes ago, (XBOX)ECCHO SIERRA said:

If we're going to use real life concepts to justify the state of melee:

How can a melee weapon a few feet long (if that) smack enemies several meters away?

How can a melee weapon that isnt even sharp cut through multiple enemies at a time?

If a melee weapon can go "through" an enemy, let alone several, wouldnt that be immediately incapacitating if not fatal?

 

Im not suggesting that melee should be nerfed, or guns shouldnt have to reload, or that anything like that.

 

I just think its worth pointing out melee in this game is *by far* the strongest class of weapon and the only reason ranged weapons are really relevant is some enemies are immune to melee because reasons. 

 

Even if my tiberon prime was guaranteed to kill anything in one burst, it would still not compete with melee weapons in many cases because i would be missing out on the chance to slap multiple enemies at once and i would occasionally have to reload. 

Are humans using those wepons? Yes or no? What do you think happens when a human hits another human with a bat versus a silver back gorilla hitting a human with a bat? 

You're not playing a human in warframe....you're playing a highly advanced inhuman warframe with near limitless strength. If you can't handle the power then go play call of duty. There's no swords there to outperform you. 

And duh.....yes a Tiberon isn't gonna be the same as a melee weapon....because it's a single target gun....do you know why snipers in the military don't approach high profile targets with a sword in broad daylight? Because that's not a snipers job.....Because it's patently ridiculous....and we're in the 21st century and aren't coming from a ninja/samurai culture. 

Have you never seen a king fu or martial arts movie or something? 

You and many others seem to be missing some basic, common sense fundamentals about the game you're playing and its theme. 

Did you know there was a time in history when people actually thought it was more honorable to fight with fists and melee weapons instead of drones, guns, and bombs? 

Did you know there are plenty of games out there for you to play that are based around modern European themes that involve colonists with guns? 

Do you see assault rifles and Soap McTavish and Navy seals in the Sekiro game? No? Why do you think that is? 

[(PSN)BuzzZaw82]

13 hours ago, (PSN)Double991 said:

The Kuva Nukor's ability to deal Magnetic, Radiation, Viral/Corrosive, and Heat/Cold all at the same time are what make it top tier. If enemies survive that then my CO melee will finish the job.

...exactlly as it's one of the very, very few that can apply all four....it's not so much the damage as it's all four elements helping proc each other....that's how I have mine setup and it's funny to see all four procing.....leave the darn thing alone....getting tired of going after Kuva Weapons only to see them "Nerfed or Toned Down"...and then everyone complain no-one is doing Lich runs anymore...why bother when you get one, mod it right, have fun with it and then shortly Devs decide it's...Too Good....

[(XBOX)ECCHO SIERRA]

6 minutes ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

Are humans using those wepons? Yes or no? What do you think happens when a human hits another human with a bat versus a silver back gorilla hitting a human with a bat? 

You're not playing a human in warframe....you're playing a highly advanced inhuman warframe with near limitless strength. If you can't handle the power then go play call of duty. There's no swords there to outperform you. 

And duh.....yes a Tiberon isn't gonna be the same as a melee weapon....because it's a single target gun....do you know why snipers in the military don't approach high profile targets with a sword in broad daylight? Because that's not a snipers job.....Because it's patently ridiculous....and we're in the 21st century and aren't coming from a ninja/samurai culture. 

Have you never seen a king fu or martial arts movie or something? 

You and many others seem to be missing some basic, common sense fundamentals about the game you're playing and its theme. 

Did you know there was a time in history when people actually thought it was more honorable to fight with fists and melee weapons instead of drones, guns, and bombs? 

Did you know there are plenty of games out there for you to play that are based around modern European themes that involve colonists with guns? 

Do you see assault rifles and Soap McTavish and Navy seals in the Sekiro game? No? Why do you think that is? 

I dont know why youre so hung up on this.

 

1) no, humans arent using those weapons but what point or difference does that make? A silverback gorilla can swing a bat harder than me, sure. But can a silverback gorilla magically make a 24-34 inch long baseball bat able to hit somebody several meters away? Is that bat going to go *through* several people at once? If it did (theoretically possible if it hit them hard enough i guess) would it not immediately be tearing people apart and knocking people across the room? Guaranteed 1 hits, in other words? 

2) tiberon isnt a sniper rifle. Its an assault rifle. Its more comparable to an m4/m16 than a sniper rifle but go off i guess. If you want to point out rifles are "single target weapons" be logically consistent and remember that swords and blunt melee weapons IRL arent designed to smack 10 people at once IRL either before you accuse someone else of lacking common sense.

 

3) youre bringing up other games like this is set in the middle ages or something like there arent laser cannons and such. Non argument all over the place. 

I never complained about melee weapons being too powerful. If anything i think ranged weapons arent strong enough. Theres a reason the ranged weapons people tend to gravitate towards most, have some kind of AOE mechanic. Kuva nukor, catchmoon (wide projectile, pt) kuva bramma etc. 

If you cant handle somebody simply pointing out that melee weapons are crazy strong vs ranged weapons there are plenty of other forums you can use. 

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

13 minutes ago, (XBOX)ECCHO SIERRA said:

I dont know why youre so hung up on this.

 

1) no, humans arent using those weapons but what point or difference does that make? A silverback gorilla can swing a bat harder than me, sure. But can a silverback gorilla magically make a 24-34 inch long baseball bat able to hit somebody several meters away? Is that bat going to go *through* several people at once? If it did (theoretically possible if it hit them hard enough i guess) would it not immediately be tearing people apart and knocking people across the room? Guaranteed 1 hits, in other words? 

2) tiberon isnt a sniper rifle. Its an assault rifle. Its more comparable to an m4/m16 than a sniper rifle but go off i guess. If you want to point out rifles are "single target weapons" be logically consistent and remember that swords and blunt melee weapons IRL arent designed to smack 10 people at once IRL either before you accuse someone else of lacking common sense.

 

3) youre bringing up other games like this is set in the middle ages or something like there arent laser cannons and such. Non argument all over the place. 

I never complained about melee weapons being too powerful. If anything i think ranged weapons arent strong enough. Theres a reason the ranged weapons people tend to gravitate towards most, have some kind of AOE mechanic. Kuva nukor, catchmoon (wide projectile, pt) kuva bramma etc. 

If you cant handle somebody simply pointing out that melee weapons are crazy strong vs ranged weapons there are plenty of other forums you can use. 

The strength that someone uses to swing a katana doesn't matter? It actually does. The bats and pipes were an example to get the point across. 

If a magically super powerful warframe swings a katana....it's going to do more damage than a human swinging a katana. 

And single target is single target. Doesn't matter whether it's a sniper or an assault rifle. 

Edit: if you can't handle this basic info, there are plenty of other forums you can use.

[SenorClipClop]

On 2021-02-15 at 11:10 AM, (XBOX)TehChubbyDugan said:

You people are so utterly ridiculous.  

"I'm so glad that the effective tools and gear that other people enjoy are all being nerfed into the ground!  Everyone should be a Plinx main, like me because I'm not a mEtA slAvE"

The issue I have with this stance is that, at least in Warframe, non-meta weapons are still effective, still carry you through 99% of the content players ever bother with. Anything beyond the effective -- so, the meta -- isn't needed for the player to succeed, it just makes the game easier and lower-effort. So when people start avidly defending the meta (the Tonkors, Syn Simulors, pre-balance Brammas and Saryns), all I infer from it is that this player wants the game to be as easy and lazy as the OP, AoE weapon makes it -- a stand-point-click-dead idle game. That's the gameplay these options reduce to, what are people defending if not that?

[SneakyErvin]

15 hours ago, Jarriaga said:

Like what? I always see comments about how DE should have a better system, but no concrete examples are ever offered.

Enemies killed with the actual weapon? So those who build a Primer Kuva Nukor/Gaze with little damage are never contributing to usage stats unless they're at low levels?

I think that DE have no choice but to use the current system in which your Chakkhur usage is artificially increasing because it's the lesser of all evils, and just because this is the system they have to use doesn't mean it can't be used as a barometer due to a lack of better and more accurate alternatives. After all, if you are not taking 2 minutes to remove your Chakkhur from those loadouts then it's most likely that, in a higher-than-average basis, it's because it doesn't really have competition for your playstyle and can fulfill most non-niche roles and you'd rather have it there just in case because it's better than nothing ---or the rest---. 

I don't agree. I think DE do take the usage context into account. Otherwise Snipers would never be nerfed even though they mostly only see usage in boss battles, and some of them are time-gated. I have a hard time believing a 45 minute Tridolon hunt window with a non-meta average of 3 runs would skew Sniper usage stats above and beyond the 1 and a half hour window you can't do the mission in which most other weapons are a lot more functional and appropriate for horde killing outside abilities.

It could track number of enemies the weapon has been involved in killing. It would be far more accurate since it would atleast need to deal some damage to an enemy to count. In addition to that there could be a usage stat for time, that tracks when the weapon is active, i.e in use to help killing an enemy. Then those could be cross referenced for better numbers of actual active usage.

The reason I dont remove the chakkhur is because sometimes a mission forces primary only, in which case I simply dont want to have to fiddle with my loadout. The slot could in reality be just empty for all I care, I wouldnt notice a difference. That is why I have a single loadout slot for each primary class, in order to not have to change weapons when sniper, bow, shotgun or rifle are needed.

They dont take context into account, if they did, snipers or well their rivens, wouldnt be nerfed since they'd actually see the context in why they are used and notice that the weapons are perfectly fine and used over others since the others are simply bad. They go on category popularity, more accurately sub-categories like snipers, bows, assault, semi etc. 

And I think DE has alot of choices instead of using the current and very flawed usage data system. The first thing DE should do is actually make a budget system for their damn item creation, be it for weapons, frames, companions and anything else. Winging it like they do now and then going on popularity stats to tweak afterwards just doesnt work. It's been so many years of it not actually working.

[Jarriaga]

1 hour ago, SneakyErvin said:

It could track number of enemies the weapon has been involved in killing. It would be far more accurate since it would atleast need to deal some damage to an enemy to count.

As in, if the weapon was used to shoot something even if it was killed by something else? How would that solve the problem of status primer usage being skewed? Wouldn't that push usage even further if you primed 1000 enemies in a single mission instead of just adding +1 to usage stats by virtue of completing the mission per se?

1 hour ago, SneakyErvin said:

In addition to that there could be a usage stat for time, that tracks when the weapon is active, i.e in use to help killing an enemy. Then those could be cross referenced for better numbers of actual active usage.

How do we know DE don't already do that? And how would your proposal add or remove weight to say, 1000 status-primed enemies in a single mission? If I primed 5 enemies over 2 seconds 100 times in a single mission, how does that change the usage formula? Is the usage time dividing, adding, or substracting? How would that formula work for low fire-rate weapons or weapons that have reload or charge downtime? Wouldn't that number be higher than a simple +1 for completing the mission with it equipped? It would ironically be a more conservative number.

1 hour ago, SneakyErvin said:

The reason I dont remove the chakkhur is because sometimes a mission forces primary only, in which case I simply dont want to have to fiddle with my loadout. The slot could in reality be just empty for all I care, I wouldnt notice a difference. That is why I have a single loadout slot for each primary class, in order to not have to change weapons when sniper, bow, shotgun or rifle are needed.

So you have it there as a "just in case" as I mentioned as a possible cause. That doesn't change the fact that you have chosen to leave the Chakkhur there over, say, the Tetra.

1 hour ago, SneakyErvin said:

They dont take context into account, if they did, snipers or well their rivens, wouldnt be nerfed since they'd actually see the context in why they are used and notice that the weapons are perfectly fine and used over others since the others are simply bad. They go on category popularity, more accurately sub-categories like snipers, bows, assault, semi etc. 

They do take context into account. Reb directly confirmed this to Brozime when he reached out to her about why Wukong Prime is the most used frame despite him rarely ever seen Wukong Prime.

Turns out she told him that he's extremely popular in Capture and Sortie missions, the type of missions Brozime doesn't play. This means that DE are able to take individual game mode usage into context when aggregating data. Just because the Arca Plasmor is a horrible choice for an Eidolon fight doesn't mean that the Rubico should be given a pass "because it's the only viable choice in that context". It means that they know Snipers are king in that context already and are likely not measuring the Rubico to the Arca Plasmor, but rather the Rubico to the Snipetron.

It seems we are looking at the exact same data and reaching different conclusions. Your argument as that they shouldn't nerf it because they have a unique/niche use in which the rest is not really an option at all. My argument is that if they only have a niche use, they should still be measured in the context of what works in that niche use. Why? Because otherwise Snipers as a whole would get a weapon class pass by virtue of not being appropriate for the rest of the game. So what do you do to keep things fair? You isolate and measure against them where they are actually used. Thus Rubico vs Snipetron rather than Rubico vs. Plasmor. 

1 hour ago, SneakyErvin said:

And I think DE has alot of choices instead of using the current and very flawed usage data system. The first thing DE should do is actually make a budget system for their damn item creation, be it for weapons, frames, companions and anything else. Winging it like they do now and then going on popularity stats to tweak afterwards just doesnt work. It's been so many years of it not actually working.

Yet concrete correction and improvement proposals that can take into account individual usage playstyles and edge cases are either never presented, or vaguely presented as in your initial remarks about measuring based on weapon participation without clarifying how the stats should result from damaging 1000 enemies in 1 mission vs. damaging 1000 enemies over 1000 missions (1 per mission) with said weapon.

[Krankbert]

vor 38 Minuten schrieb SenorClipClop:

The issue I have with this stance is that, at least in Warframe, non-meta weapons are still effective, still carry you through 99% of the content players ever bother with. Anything beyond the effective -- so, the meta -- isn't needed for the player to succeed, it just makes the game easier and lower-effort. So when people start avidly defending the meta (the Tonkors, Syn Simulors, pre-balance Brammas and Saryns), all I infer from it is that this player wants the game to be as easy and lazy as the OP, AoE weapon makes it -- a stand-point-click-dead idle game. That's the gameplay these options reduce to, what are people defending if not that?

Please don't pretend that making bad gear choices somehow makes you a better player.

[SenorClipClop]

18 minutes ago, Krankbert said:

Please don't pretend that making bad gear choices somehow makes you a better player.

Are you suggesting that anything outside the meta is a bad gear choice?