Banshee Prime was the lowest used Prime of 2020 for very clear reasons.

[Tiltskillet]

10 minutes ago, ReddyDisco said:

i found having no range mods on banshee fits as you can keep moving and reapply the stun and rinse repeat.

I still play that as well as negative range.  But more and more I go for positive range.  It helps Sonar a bunch, and SB a fair amount.  And even though it's got drawbacks with Silence, having a longer range of ability suppression is pretty luxurious.  

I do much prefer shorter ranges on my Savage Silence builds though

[ReddyDisco]

2 minutes ago, Tiltskillet said:

I still play that as well as negative range.  But more and more I go for positive range.  It helps Sonar a bunch, and SB a fair amount.  And even though it's got drawbacks with Silence, having a longer range of ability suppression is pretty luxurious.  

I do much prefer shorter ranges on my Savage Silence builds though

ah savage silence i remember when marked for death with banshee reached the damage cap

[(XBOX)ECCHO SIERRA]

21 hours ago, Nebu4 said:

The least used warframe is grendel. Banshee has only one issue, and that's her 4th ability. Also the fact tht you're basing your statements off of brozime tierlist is kinda :| 

His tier list already makes zero sense, he literally placed inaros, the worst tank out of all frames above Revenant and a lot of other frames meanwhile inaros is just a walking health bar with no abilities. She's in no way a failed dps warframe, you can reach big numbers easily with her.

Her cc is usually enough to stay alive, and even if you get hit, you still have shieldgating so you're pretty much immune to getting oneshot.

Also with the current weapons and all what we have, I don't see why it should affect bosses. I'd agree when it comes down to acolytes, but it already affects demolishers.

 

"Ree agreeing with youtuber bad" is not an argument. Especially when the youtuber happens to have a point.

 

Soundquake is just bad. Period. I cant think of a single situation ever where sound quake is worth using. Anything it "can" do is eclipsed by other abilities. 

Sonar is not a good ability. 

I know somebody is gonna argue with me but putting meme damage against mobs is not necessary for anything in this game and if just straight up doesnt work on bosses. 

Theres a reason her pick rate is so low.

 

As for the rest of your comment:

Stop being silly.

[Surbusken]

The whole thing makes me laugh.

I would just have assumed the developers had an active interest in selling all the frames, not leaving any of them under-performing.

But maybe their strategy is just leaving lower frames as MR fodder same as weapons. Then rotate flavor of the month items into top tier depending on what they are currently trying to sell.

Or maybe they just don't have the time or insight to deal with all the issues that need some love while having to keep up with new content. I don't know.

It's also a question of frames being specialists. They might actually want frames to perform poorly for certain modes or levels. Again if a frame could do it all you would probably sell less frames.

Though I am not sure banshee fills a niche lol...

My takeaway is, I have no idea what the developers intent for the game is and the players are a lot more correct than the developers give them credit for.

 

[(PSN)FK2P]

1 hour ago, ReddyDisco said:

when you can't clear a room by pressing 4 is when most pub players turn away from a frame and call it trash. 

mentioning tierlists as a means to judge a frame is nonsense, all those lists are subjective and based on the creator's playstyle 

Playstyle is derivative, you can take banshee to the profit taker, or to an eidolon hunt and call it playstyle- however the fact remains that better options do exist for situations where high damage is required. This is why and how things have rankings and ratings.

Example: Frost is going out of value because more defense objectives are now mobile- and there are less of them.

Frost in 2014: Essential.

Frost in 2021: A Playstyle.

You can come here defending a playstyle, but if a playstyle is less effective, for instance- if you actually aren’t using roar to buff your team’s damage in exchange for playing banshee and not doing that, then that’s purely a less effective option for damage buffing.

[(PSN)FK2P]

1 hour ago, Tiltskillet said:

I still play that as well as negative range.  But more and more I go for positive range.  It helps Sonar a bunch, and SB a fair amount.  And even though it's got drawbacks with Silence, having a longer range of ability suppression is pretty luxurious.  

I do much prefer shorter ranges on my Savage Silence builds though

It doesn’t matter how much range you slap on sonar, it’s not ever going to damage any target worth damaging, from eidolons all the way up to our new bosses, and beyond. That’s the issue in this thread. It’s not the damage- it’s the consistency to paint all targets.

[(PSN)FK2P]

3 hours ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

Casual and average players are path of least resistance, low effort players.

Frames that require more awareness and active play will naturally be a turn off to most players. 

She, like basically every frame, is viable against very high level enemies.

Only basic enemies though. This is the deep issue that I have with her.
 

When new content is released, I don’t take banshee before I take rhino, because I never know if sonar is going to apply to the new shiny boss or enemy type. It’s universally safer to buff my weapon instead 100% of the time. 

[(PSN)FK2P]

4 hours ago, (PSN)robotwars7 said:

to be hoenst, I don't think there's all that many problems with her. her 1 and 4 need looking at, but her 2 and 3 work fine, and being squishy is suppsoed to be a trade off for the insane damage you can do with her, which is also less of a problem now with Shield Gating. there are other frames like Valkyr that need looking at more IMO. Banshee isn't perfect, but she does work. 

Being squishy in return for high damage only works as a playstyle when the damage can apply to everything in the game. Her kit is fine in my opinion, it’s just whenever a new enemy type drops that requires more damage, it’s immune.... so buffing my weapon with mirage, rhino, or chroma is then more effective. Dispite banshee allowing me to paint millions of damage on a level 10000 lancer, this is just old content.

[ReddyDisco]

21 minutes ago, (PSN)FK2P said:

Playstyle is derivative, you can take banshee to the profit taker, or to an eidolon hunt and call it playstyle- however the fact remains that better options do exist for situations where high damage is required. This is why and how things have rankings and ratings.

Example: Frost is going out of value because more defense objectives are now mobile- and there are less of them.

Frost in 2014: Essential.

Frost in 2021: A Playstyle.

You can come here defending a playstyle, but if a playstyle is less effective, for instance- if you actually aren’t using roar to buff your team’s damage in exchange for playing banshee and not doing that, then that’s purely a less effective option for damage buffing.

we don't really need more power creep than already present, banshee buff on bosses will make them all as threatening as the sergeant. 

The game is already a cake walk with melee being as strong as it is and helminth covering a frame's weaknesses. there is no NEED to use a specific frame for a piece of content, you choose a frame you find fun and mod them to your playstyle. This talk of meta team is pointless in the grand scheme of things

[vanaukas]

29 minutes ago, (PSN)FK2P said:

Playstyle is derivative, you can take banshee to the profit taker, or to an eidolon hunt and call it playstyle- however the fact remains that better options do exist for situations where high damage is required. This is why and how things have rankings and ratings.

Example: Frost is going out of value because more defense objectives are now mobile- and there are less of them.

Frost in 2014: Essential.

Frost in 2021: A Playstyle.

You can come here defending a playstyle, but if a playstyle is less effective, for instance- if you actually aren’t using roar to buff your team’s damage in exchange for playing banshee and not doing that, then that’s purely a less effective option for damage buffing.

 

27 minutes ago, (PSN)FK2P said:

It doesn’t matter how much range you slap on sonar, it’s not ever going to damage any target worth damaging, from eidolons all the way up to our new bosses, and beyond. That’s the issue in this thread. It’s not the damage- it’s the consistency to paint all targets.

 

18 minutes ago, (PSN)FK2P said:

Only basic enemies though. This is the deep issue that I have with her.
 

When new content is released, I don’t take banshee before I take rhino, because I never know if sonar is going to apply to the new shiny boss or enemy type. It’s universally safer to buff my weapon instead 100% of the time. 

 

11 minutes ago, (PSN)FK2P said:

Being squishy in return for high damage only works as a playstyle when the damage can apply to everything in the game. Her kit is fine in my opinion, it’s just whenever a new enemy type drops that requires more damage, it’s immune.... so buffing my weapon with mirage, rhino, or chroma is then more effective. Dispite banshee allowing me to paint millions of damage on a level 10000 lancer, this is just old content.

Look, you can multiquote, press the "+" button  besides "quote"

[(PSN)FK2P]

13 minutes ago, vanaukas said:

 

 

 

Look, you can multiquote, press the "+" button  besides "quote"

Thanks, trying to explain this very simple design paradox to multiple people is now much easier. 

[Tiltskillet]

1 hour ago, (PSN)FK2P said:

That’s the issue in this thread. It’s not the damage- it’s the consistency to paint all targets.

Hey, I already agreed with that point.    I just don't accept the premise that it would have  a significant impact on her popularity.

[(PSN)FK2P]

1 hour ago, Tiltskillet said:

Hey, I already agreed with that point.    I just don't accept the premise that it would have  a significant impact on her popularity.

I suppose your right, There are overarching deciding factors people take into consideration when choosing what to play.
 

How do we choose what we play? 

 

Why does wukong have almost twice the usage of any other prime? All my friends who I introduced to the game, interestingly decided wukong prime was what they wanted first. They have no idea that he got the best rework on record, they don’t even know what reworks are. Perhaps there’s some validity in saying veterans had a lot of charged up desire to play wukong but his old kit held him back, and then when ash took a massive hit with covert lethality and essentially teleport being brought down, maybe all the ash players jumped ship into something more current but similar?  New players gravitate towards the wholeness of the design, word of mouth, and by being impressed visually? Wukong is a great warframe, the clone alone could be an ultimate. I think it’s just a case of visual design and technical design coming together which in this game is rare. 
 

If I think about it, there’s very little reason not to play wukong, he can even handle those spy missions with his amazing Cloud Walker. Effective and versatile, all sides of the game covered. Maybe it’s not as much what people decide “to” play, but what makes people “stop” playing something. 

Octavia is broken good, and also looks great, but no one plays her because she’s annoying to listen to and boring.

Wisp is a support that SWALLOWS all the other supports in the game, does their job twice as well, with no duration, and does it faster- while invisible... But she starts off bald... so there’s a cosmetic paywall for some people, you can give her a grineer look, wierd sayrn hair,  or ezio auditore with horns, goath helmet looks canonical but it covers up something important to a lot of players. Is it justified to say wukong is a perfect package amongst a roster thats all missing something however small? 

I guarantee at least 10 Loki players stopped playing him forever after getting hit by the profit taker’s heat seeking missiles while invisible. 

 

[AlendasNaro]

10 minutes ago, (PSN)FK2P said:

Why does wukong have almost twice the usage of any other prime? All my friends who I introduced to the game, interestingly decided wukong prime was what they wanted first. They have no idea that he got the best rework on record, they don’t even know what reworks are.

 

*Cough cough* Ember *cough cough*. She is so much better now what she used to be don't get me wrong. Wukong's rework is not bad but don't forget about rework on Ember.

[KittySkin]

For me banshee was ALWAYS a support, never a DPS frame. I take her to buff my team's damage while I just go out with silence to get energy and then return to my safe spot.

1 to get something away from me, 4 to lockdown an area for them to deal damage, 2 to buff team's damage and 3 to help me move across the map to collect energy, etc.

I always took her for that, a support frame that used to have a DPS augment on her ult. Her whole kit its super support oriented, using her as a DPS source its like using trinity's EV for damage, it works, yeah, and deals tons of damage, but its not the intended usage :P

[(PSN)FK2P]

Just now, AlendasNaro said:

*Cough cough* Ember *cough cough*. She is so much better now what she used to be don't get me wrong. Wukong's rework is not bad but don't forget about rework on Ember.

Yes, the distance ember jumped up from that rework was astonishing, but where does wukong get that edge over the rest? I remember they were so confused about vauban that they started giving him bonus armour to account for realising that crowd control is literally a dead horse, probably because of how they actively disable it when it suits. Why is wukong such a widely comfortable main, and how can other frames adopt from the lessons we learned from these important reworks. 
 

Wukong rework= well recieved, tanky, versatile, and semi passive. 

Ember rework= well recieved, tanky, less versatile and fully active.

Vauban rework= not well recieved, not tanky, versatile and fully active. 

[Mr.Fluffins]

Meanwhile, I had fun with my Savage Banshee with marked for death in Steel Path.

To be honest, I think the reason she is underused is because her defensive capabilities are low (probably the lowest out of all existing warframes), using her silence defensively requires more effort than other warframe's defensive powers. sonar really needs its augment to shine in my opinion, and her 4 is rather bad.

 

[(PSN)FK2P]

4 minutes ago, KittySkin said:

For me banshee was ALWAYS a support, never a DPS frame. I take her to buff my team's damage while I just go out with silence to get energy and then return to my safe spot.

1 to get something away from me, 4 to lockdown an area for them to deal damage, 2 to buff team's damage and 3 to help me move across the map to collect energy, etc.

I always took her for that, a support frame that used to have a DPS augment on her ult. Her whole kit its super support oriented, using her as a DPS source its like using trinity's EV for damage, it works, yeah, and deals tons of damage, but its not the intended usage :P

She’s a debuffer, a damage debuffer. She can achieve incredible feats of damage through debuffing ~some~ enemies and not others. Her 1,3 and 4 are garnishes that were designed to compliment her before shield gating. Using her for her 1 is hilarious, borderline “old ember” gameplay. People used to say “but with ember you can just use a weapon.” ~ remember that all warframes have weapons.
 

People can have their playstyle, but sometimes it’s like when the government wants to build something on some land, and there’s that one person left who won’t sell their house, even for a better one. There’s always that one ember player who justified her old kit. 

[(PSN)FK2P]

2 minutes ago, Mr.Fluffins said:

Meanwhile, I had fun with my Savage Banshee with marked for death in Steel Path.

To be honest, I think the reason she is underused is because her defensive capabilities are low (probably the lowest out of all existing warframes), using her silence defensively requires more effort than other warframe's defensive powers. sonar really needs its augment to shine in my opinion, and her 4 is rather bad.

 

If anything I think her kit should be more polarised.
 

I would trade her shield gate for the ability to paint bosses with sonar. 

Make her more dangerous to lay in return for consistancy. At least that would make her unique.

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

7 minutes ago, (PSN)FK2P said:

Only basic enemies though. This is the deep issue that I have with her.
 

When new content is released, I don’t take banshee before I take rhino, because I never know if sonar is going to apply to the new shiny boss or enemy type. It’s universally safer to buff my weapon instead 100% of the time. 

Most of the enemies are basic fodder. For deimos though, yes, I'd take nekros for extra loot over banshee. 

Most games present you with varied scenarios, giving you space to try different frames. 

I personally haven't touched rhino since I was new, because I don't need the buff lol, but I understand.

[(PSN)FK2P]

Just now, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

Most of the enemies are basic fodder. For deimos though, yes, I'd take nekros for extra loot over banshee. 

Most games present you with varied scenarios, giving you space to try different frames. 

I personally haven't touched rhino since I was new, because I don't need the buff lol, but I understand.

I believe a lot of people search for a warframe they can play indefinately. 
 

I believe recently that frame has been wukong. 

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

6 minutes ago, (PSN)FK2P said:

If anything I think her kit should be more polarised.
 

I would trade her shield gate for the ability to paint bosses with sonar. 

Make her more dangerous to lay in return for consistancy. At least that would make her unique.

"Recasting Sonar while it's still active will cause additional body parts to be highlighted. Highlighted areas can overlap, causing inflicted damage to be further amplified multiplicatively"

You can add multiple sonars at a time. Still not the same as a whole sonar applying to the entire body, but I think they want you to actually aim....lol.

[KittySkin]

6 minutes ago, (PSN)FK2P said:

She’s a debuffer, a damage debuffer. She can achieve incredible feats of damage through debuffing ~some~ enemies and not others. Her 1,3 and 4 are garnishes that were designed to compliment her before shield gating. Using her for her 1 is hilarious, borderline “old ember” gameplay. People used to say “but with ember you can just use a weapon.” ~ remember that all warframes have weapons.
 

People can have their playstyle, but sometimes it’s like when the government wants to build something on some land, and there’s that one person left who won’t sell their house, even for a better one. There’s always that one ember player who justified her old kit. 

Oh, I dont justify it. She needs a rework so bad. At least she needs a real way to survive. Her 1 its a generic useless first ability, I can get it, her 2 its actually ok if her 3 and 4 where actually useful. Like, IDK, silence stun last twice as long and can be recast to refresh duration, her ult leaves a trembling field for a set duration, so you can use 4 to "freeze" enemies to shot them, or spam her 3 to keept them in place. Some way of consistent crowd control to allow her to do other stuff outside of spam 2 and die. Better damage reduction? Get shield back for every kill inside her silence radious? Her 2 its not that bad, her lack of resources is. Give her some resources to avoid death and she can work just well,like mesa does.

[(PSN)FK2P]

23 minutes ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

"Recasting Sonar while it's still active will cause additional body parts to be highlighted. Highlighted areas can overlap, causing inflicted damage to be further amplified multiplicatively"

You can add multiple sonars at a time. Still not the same as a whole sonar applying to the entire body, but I think they want you to actually aim....lol.

My scenario would be, cast a larger sonar  on a boss, if it lands on a health bar, great, extra damage. I don't want sonar to cover the target at all. It's already implied you have to aim when hitting a specific point on a boss before banshee even comes into the equasion. Banshee would just coat the boss in sonar points to provide her damage. A larger overall sonar that would cover about 1/5 of the boss would allow banshee to finally bring something to missions with immune enemies - or perhaps that would be game breaking? That's the overarching and original point that I provided in this thread, i'm not trying to rework her, i'm just wondering why things are so confusing and complicated, and why abilities and enemies seem to be completely out of sync.

[(PSN)FK2P]

35 minutes ago, KittySkin said:

Oh, I dont justify it. She needs a rework so bad. At least she needs a real way to survive. Her 1 its a generic useless first ability, I can get it, her 2 its actually ok if her 3 and 4 where actually useful. Like, IDK, silence stun last twice as long and can be recast to refresh duration, her ult leaves a trembling field for a set duration, so you can use 4 to "freeze" enemies to shot them, or spam her 3 to keept them in place. Some way of consistent crowd control to allow her to do other stuff outside of spam 2 and die. Better damage reduction? Get shield back for every kill inside her silence radious? Her 2 its not that bad, her lack of resources is. Give her some resources to avoid death and she can work just well,like mesa does.

The problem with adding survivability is it ruins her chance at keeping her own flavour, dispite what players clearly gear towards, I would ideally keep frames versatile. The problem is that only tanks, buffers and weapons are reliable today. The players choices are defined by the game. EHP and weapons are winning every side of the game. I would rather banshee have twice rhino's damage potential but be extremely risky to play, but that only works if sonar applies to everything rhino's roar applies to. Frames could be viable if their abilities were consistent with the enemies. Thought process: If i'm invisible I expect nothing to see me, if it can, i'm taking inaros. If im playing vauban and my ability states i can control enemies- and i cast and the enemy runs right past my bastile- it's inaros time... This is partly why we have a health meta- alongside the fact that it's also easier in general to play this way.