Archwings should not be faster than railjacks long distance

[Faulcun]

What is a railjack? What is it meant to do? You guys really need to figure that out.

Since the changes post event, archwings outperform railjacks in speed and combat unless you are nuking the map with void hole or something.

You created a flight/space simulator, then nerfed the most important aspects: Speed, mobility, and endurance to utilize both. I should not have to add a special avionic just to go faster when no enemies are around. Thats ridiculous. If I build it for speed, then i want to go fast..... not go fast sometimes.

I think you guys need to roll back some of the changes made after scarlet spear. A crewed railjack should outperform an archwing all day every day.

 

Edit: After testing, we've discovered that railjacks are technically faster than archwings, however not by much. Not by enough difference to matter whether you would wait on the railjack to take you someplace vs exiting and going there yourself. Reading through this topic is best before posting on this original post.

[Crizyal]

yes !

[PhiThagRaid]

5 hours ago, Faulcun said:

A crewed railjack should outperform an archwing all day every day.

Although I agree this should be true, I dont believe that Archwings are any good at speed or combat in railjack. Where'd you get that idea from?

[Hokibukisa]

There needs to be achievements to teach people how to boost. (Vector blah blah)

There is a boost pulse. Tap the boost. This is just a jerky 1-off boost, and can be used to break missile locks. (Most easily demonstrated at missile platforms)

There is the one-press-and-hold boost, which is something you want to avoid doing. It’s a huge waste of boost energy. This is the sad virgin boost.

Then there is the double-press-and-hold boost. This is how all of the Chad pilots get around. You can Chad boost in any direction (including forward) but the release is always forward.

Whenever I see ppl complain about railjack speed, all of us Chad boosters know that you are virgin boosting.

So let’s spend 2021 making virgin rj pilots into Chad pilots.

[Bakaguya-sama]

Uh... what? 

Lol what Railjack are you playing in.  

There's like 0 reason to even step out of the Railjack right now unless its to do the objectives. The railjack is far superior to archwings in every single way.  Speed, firepower, everything.  Like the other guy said, double tap and hold the boost button. The railjack will leave the archwing outside in the dust.  

Literally all you have to do win in Railjack is hit Tether (it cost 15 plat on the market, less than a potato, if you still dont have it yet) and shoot it once to and apparently some of y'all still haven't figured it out.  

[Faulcun]

3 hours ago, Hokibukisa said:

Then there is the double-press-and-hold boost. This is how all of the Chad pilots get around. You can Chad boost in any direction (including forward) but the release is always forward.

Whenever I see ppl complain about railjack speed, all of us Chad boosters know that you are virgin boosting.

What you are referring to is boost combined with dodge. My buttons are separate. I simply have to boost, then press dodge, which charges a forward boost release on top moving faster.
 

I am no virgin pilot. IF you arent running cruising speed avionic, Im pretty sure i can blink through space with my archwing faster than you no matter your railjack build. And then IF you are running it, and there happens to be enemies around, you dont have the freedom to do what you want anyways.

Look, we can sit here and argue about it, but im happy to go in game and do some more testing with you. I havent touched it since the post scarlet spear changes due to the ridiculousness.

[PhiThagRaid]

2 hours ago, Faulcun said:

I am no virgin pilot. IF you arent running cruising speed avionic, Im pretty sure i can blink through space with my archwing faster than you no matter your railjack build. And then IF you are running it, and there happens to be enemies around, you dont have the freedom to do what you want anyways.

Look, we can sit here and argue about it, but im happy to go in game and do some more testing with you. I havent touched it since the post scarlet spear changes due to the ridiculousness.

Well, That dodge boost or what ever it is still makes Railjacks faster. I run an Itzal with maxed hyperion thrusters and maxed archwing speed intrinsics, In my solo runs I take longer to get to the objective with Archwing while using the teleport. (Old Itzal would've been faster, but that doesn't exist anymore) In squads I have also found Railjacks to outspeed my archwing.

[Faulcun]

19 hours ago, PhiThagRaid said:

Well, That dodge boost or what ever it is still makes Railjacks faster. I run an Itzal with maxed hyperion thrusters and maxed archwing speed intrinsics, In my solo runs I take longer to get to the objective with Archwing while using the teleport. (Old Itzal would've been faster, but that doesn't exist anymore) In squads I have also found Railjacks to outspeed my archwing.

 

Like I said, if im wrong, im wrong and ill concede. Perhaps i missed something in an update between scarlet spear and now. I havnt messed with it since the immediate changes post event.

But lets take it off paper, and do some testing. The last thing I want is to suggest changes that the game doesnt need.

[EvilClover]

I came to this topic wanting to agree. However, in my experience with a maxed Archwing and maxed Railjack, the Railjack wins with damage, speed and defense. Even without battle avionics. Here's the 2nd however, I don't think the difference between them is great enough. The comparison is too close to make sense.

At the moment, during a normal RJ mission - crewmates can either fly around with the Archwing and get the objective done, or stay in the ship and do it from there. It doesn't make a huge difference for the end goal, though the RJ route is faster. On one hand, I like being able to choose between types of gameplay. On the other hand, it doesn't make sense that our giant RJ's are only mildly better in comparison to our tiny Archwings. 

That being said, I don't think this small difference would be so noticeable if the crew-oriented gameplay in the Railjack was more engaging. People head off the ship to get stuff done, because it's more engaging than side-gunning / forging / repairing. It's unfortunately understandable, if you're not the pilot ~ it's more exciting to fleet around in your Archwing.

A small rebalance might be a good thing, but also ~ more engaging team-play inside the RJ might affect this greater.

[PhiThagRaid]

18 hours ago, Faulcun said:

But lets take it off paper, and do some testing. The last thing I want is to suggest changes that the game doesnt need.

Did some quick tests over a more than 20k distance.(Did far enough to have RJ have to wait for boost to fully recharge)

RJ: 22s
AW: 40s

Intrinsic levels: 10,8,8,8

Itzal with Hyperion Thrusters warping as soon as cooldown is over

[Faulcun]

12 hours ago, PhiThagRaid said:

Did some quick tests over a more than 20k distance.(Did far enough to have RJ have to wait for boost to fully recharge)

RJ: 22s
AW: 40s

Intrinsic levels: 10,8,8,8

Itzal with Hyperion Thrusters warping as soon as cooldown is over

Ill test this tonight. If i can repeat, im happy to admit. Although, I think the issue is closer to what @EvilCloveris describing above.

 

 

[Faulcun]

18 hours ago, PhiThagRaid said:

Did some quick tests over a more than 20k distance.(Did far enough to have RJ have to wait for boost to fully recharge)

RJ: 22s
AW: 40s

Intrinsic levels: 10,8,8,8

Itzal with Hyperion Thrusters warping as soon as cooldown is over

I want to confirm you are NOT using cruising speed avionic, or flow burn?

[PhiThagRaid]

15 hours ago, Faulcun said:

I want to confirm you are NOT using cruising speed avionic, or flow burn?

I was not using flowburn, but was using CS. I was basically running my Saturn mod farming build.

What's the goal? Proving all RJs are better than all AWs or just that RJs can be faster than AWs when modded?

[Hokibukisa]

I use ion burn and conic nozzle, and always double boost. Not cruising speed, no flow burn

Several times I’ve had people remark about how crazy fast my rj is. And theirs no chance in hell any archwing could keep up with it.

It’s most noticeable when people decide to blink to an anomaly instead of tele to the railjack. Rj reaches anomaly in less than two boosts, while archwings not even a third of the way to it

[Drasiel]

7 hours ago, PhiThagRaid said:

I was not using flowburn, not sure about CS. I was basically running my Saturn mod farming build.

What's the goal? Proving all RJs are better than all AWs or just that RJs can be faster than AWs when modded?

The goal is likely to replicate the results by performing the same tests so avionic configs are important. 

[PhiThagRaid]

2 hours ago, Drasiel said:

The goal is likely to replicate the results by performing the same tests so avionic configs are important. 

Thought it would be obvious what I meant, but whatever. I'm not asking what the goal is of having the data of the build, I am asking what he is aiming to prove or disprove. If a Railjack can outspeed a maxed Archwing is that enough or does he need to know that a railjack is always faster than a maxed archwing.

[Aura]

The whole point of avionics is to have build diversity. A speedy Railjack will be speedy and definitely will be faster than a maxed archwing. A slow tanky railjack won't be

combat? no. unless you're using default railjack guns with no battle avionics just no.... 

[Faulcun]

10 hours ago, PhiThagRaid said:

Thought it would be obvious what I meant, but whatever. I'm not asking what the goal is of having the data of the build, I am asking what he is aiming to prove or disprove. If a Railjack can outspeed a maxed Archwing is that enough or does he need to know that a railjack is always faster than a maxed archwing.

 

My point was that a rail jack should be faster all the time, not under certain conditions like not having enemies around. For example, maybe i dont want to spend the first half of the mission finger farting around with enemies. Maybe I want to boogie over to one of the objectives, and then deal with enemies while an away team handles the inside objective.

Yeah, I know they can do that right from the start..... and thats kinda my point. There is no real reason to choose one over the other, you can do both, and neither have any impact on the mission. So whats the point of the railjack?

 

 

Ok so after some testing Ive come to the conclusion that I was technically wrong.

Doing the 20k meter test (without cruising speed) I came up with the following results:

Railjack: 27s

Archwing: 37s

So the conclusion is.... railjack with maxed vidar engines, and maxed speed/boost avionics is consistently faster than HT itzal.... in these sessions by 10s.

Ultimately, even if faster by 15s..... still not a big deal. In my opinion, the rail jack should be capable, at regular boost, twice the speed, or even more, of a modded archwing. There is still ZERO incentive to stay in the railjack and operate as intended.

Perhaps objectives and gameplay need to spread out across 100k+ meters. Maybe then id be more inclined to ride the ship somewhere with the crew.

The missions need to be more engaging, the objectives need to be more engaging. The sandbox needs to be bigger. The railjack needs more purpose.

I still think they need to figure out what they really want a railjack to be. As somebody else stated, its only marginally better when you can completely ignore everything else and just leave in an archwing.

As of right now, objectives MAX are 20k distance from the start of the mission.  Now, im not suggesting that they just spread the objectives out. The whole concept of railjack, objectives, and space battles need to be reworked. Every single mission in railjack is exactly the same... at least thats how it feels.

 

[Kategari]

Everything that you have written in this thread makes absolutely no sense.

The only scenario where an Archwing outperforms a Railjack is if the Railjack captain is completely and utterly new. If you are using a Railjack with any mk III (or mk II or mk I probably) engine... If you are using any of the Speed Avionics (and I do mean any - Conic Nozzle, Ion Burn...), and if you as a Railjack Pilot have.... Any pilot intrinsics, guess what:

Your Railjack massively outperforms an Archwing in terms of speed.

If you have any Battle Avionics (and I do mean any except Fiery Phoenix or Countermeasures), guess what:

Your Railjack massively outperforms an Archwing in terms of damage.

So before you even continue to litigate this point, I highly recommend you find a way to show us your Railjack Avionics Grid right now. Otherwise, it is impossible for us to figure out what you're doing wrong.

[PhiThagRaid]

15 minutes ago, Faulcun said:

My point was that a rail jack should be faster all the time, not under certain conditions like not having enemies around.

I can see that if this is your goal RJ is currently not living up to it, the question is: Is that a valid goal? Archwings only have 1 speed mod while RJs have 4 mods and an engine all of which you can select whether you want to use or not. When fully modded a RJ would be 2x faster than the fastest AW(with the archwing gaining speed from an intrinsic). You thus have the choice in how fast you want your RJ to be.

I agree RJs should outperform AW when a good squad is using it, and that seems to be the case.

[Faulcun]

1 hour ago, Kategari said:

Everything that you have written in this thread makes absolutely no sense.

The only scenario where an Archwing outperforms a Railjack is if the Railjack captain is completely and utterly new. If you are using a Railjack with any mk III (or mk II or mk I probably) engine... If you are using any of the Speed Avionics (and I do mean any - Conic Nozzle, Ion Burn...), and if you as a Railjack Pilot have.... Any pilot intrinsics, guess what:

Your Railjack massively outperforms an Archwing in terms of speed.

If you have any Battle Avionics (and I do mean any except Fiery Phoenix or Countermeasures), guess what:

Your Railjack massively outperforms an Archwing in terms of damage.

So before you even continue to litigate this point, I highly recommend you find a way to show us your Railjack Avionics Grid right now. Otherwise, it is impossible for us to figure out what you're doing wrong.

10/10/10/10 intrinsics. Maxed vidar engines, maxed avionics, maxed archwings with maxed mods. Ive been around as long as you have. A railjacks speed does not massively outperform. Read the rest of the thread. I stated that I was technically wrong about the speed. However, not by much.

Gun for gun, archguns do the job just as fast especially after the nerf to the enemies post scarlet spear. The only real difference is in railjack powers (battle avionics) as i stated in my original post.

1 hour ago, PhiThagRaid said:

I can see that if this is your goal RJ is currently not living up to it, the question is: Is that a valid goal? Archwings only have 1 speed mod while RJs have 4 mods and an engine all of which you can select whether you want to use or not. When fully modded a RJ would be 2x faster than the fastest AW(with the archwing gaining speed from an intrinsic). You thus have the choice in how fast you want your RJ to be.

I agree RJs should outperform AW when a good squad is using it, and that seems to be the case.

Is it? Do we need two things that perform similar? A crewed ship that only marginally outperforms? I simply feel like there should be no comparison to an interstellar spaceship and a warframe with wings strapped to its back.

[Drasiel]

I think part of the issue comes from real world expectations vs the lack of real world limitations. Take naval carriers and their companion aircraft, as I feel that's a good comparison to make between railjack and it's "fighters" archwinged tenno.  In the scenario of naval carriers the planes are faster, period full stop. The reason the carrier is useful (aside from massive firepower) to the fighters is because fuel is a problem. The carrier is home base they need the carrier to make their forays possible and to offset crashing into the ocean because fuel and the carriers need the aircraft to fend off faster attackers and other air support from enemies. Carriers and their fighters have a symbiotic relationship, the railjack and archwing don't, neither of the need the other. So in the railjack's case we have "fighters", but no fuel, no need to ever return to the railjack, so the railjack needs to have another reason that the "fighters" need/want to return to it to keep the harmony between the two systems. One way to do this could be speed if baseline railjack speed (ie running speed from the basic boost) was faster than archwing's blink you would want to do most travel on railjack and only hop out to do objective or nearby dog-fighting. Are there other options that could be used instead of speed? Probably but I'm not sure we'd like them as they would probably inhibit us more than just a speed boost to railjack in one way or another.

I think as OP has said what really needs to happen is a hard look at what DE wants the relationship between the Railjack and Archwing to be and decide on limitations or performance from there.

[JeranTek]

On 2021-02-03 at 9:57 PM, PhiThagRaid said:

Did some quick tests over a more than 20k distance.(Did far enough to have RJ have to wait for boost to fully recharge)

RJ: 22s
AW: 40s

Intrinsic levels: 10,8,8,8

Itzal with Hyperion Thrusters warping as soon as cooldown is over

On 2021-02-05 at 5:04 PM, Faulcun said:

Ive come to the conclusion that I was technically wrong.

Doing the 20k meter test (without cruising speed) I came up with the following results:

Railjack: 27s

Archwing: 37s

On 2021-02-05 at 7:19 PM, Faulcun said:

However, not by much.

So someone else doing the 20km run manages to do it in 22 seconds, you only did it in 27 seconds. That's 10-15 seconds faster than doing it in AW. "not by much" means not a significant percentage difference. By those numbers the RJ is somewhere between 37% and 81% faster than an AW with Hyperion Thrusters. That is blazingly fast by comparison.

[Kategari]

8 hours ago, JeranTek said:

That is blazingly fast by comparison.

And even then - sack all that. You can easily tell that a Railjack is faster than an Archwing just by looking at Archwing users seeing their Railjack completely blitz past them on the way to the Sentient Anomaly. It's not even close.

[Faulcun]

On 2021-02-08 at 6:27 PM, JeranTek said:

So someone else doing the 20km run manages to do it in 22 seconds, you only did it in 27 seconds. That's 10-15 seconds faster than doing it in AW. "not by much" means not a significant percentage difference. By those numbers the RJ is somewhere between 37% and 81% faster than an AW with Hyperion Thrusters. That is blazingly fast by comparison.

He did it in 22s WITH cruising speed avionic. I specifically mentioned without that mod because its useless while you are in battle.

Either way.... even if the railjack was 20s faster, or 30s faster, its still not enough to warrant staying on the railjack and helping with whatever objective its doing. There is no reason to not hop in the slingshot and launch yourself toward the next objective and go do it on your own. Which brings everything back to..... whats the point of the railjack?

18 hours ago, Kategari said:

And even then - sack all that. You can easily tell that a Railjack is faster than an Archwing just by looking at Archwing users seeing their Railjack completely blitz past them on the way to the Sentient Anomaly. It's not even close.

Now thats different. How far away is the anomaly? 50k? In this situation the railjack is nothing more than a short bus. If you are ignoring everything else on the way there, then yes, the railjack will be faster and staying on it will make sense. But once the anomaly is complete, then what? Again, no reason to stay on the railjack and help do anything. Better to jump out and go for an objective on your own.  So again I ask, whats the point of the railjack?