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Archwings should not be faster than railjacks long distance


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So, aside from the roads, public safety, sanitation, and fresh water, what HAVE the Romans done for us?

When properly configured, the Railjack is faster at racing somewhere, it's faster over short distances, it outdoes the damage an AW can do by an order of magnitude, but why bother with it when you have an Archwing?

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On 2021-02-10 at 2:05 PM, Faulcun said:

If you are ignoring everything else on the way there, then yes, the railjack will be faster and staying on it will make sense

First off - if you're going to add random stipulations the entire conversation falls apart. Secondly - I don't know what kind of scuffed slow ass Railjack you're using (even though you claim to have all the ingredients for a fast Railjack) but the Railjack is a massive, massive cry from a quote unquote "Short Bus" (what is that?? As opposed to a Long Bus??).

On 2021-02-10 at 2:05 PM, Faulcun said:

even if the railjack was 20s faster, or 30s faster, its still not enough to warrant staying on the railjack and helping with whatever objective its doing

........ wHaT???
You do realise that even in a car race, if one driver beats another driver by a whopping 10s let alone 20s, that's an absolutely massive difference??? What in tarnation is your acceptable margin? 1min? 2min? 

Fifty Five Years??

On 2021-02-10 at 2:05 PM, Faulcun said:

But once the anomaly is complete, then what?

I dunno how you handle Sentient Anomaly missions but for me and especially with a team, 1 of 2 scenarios happen:

1) I fly the Railjack straight for the Anomaly, drop someone off, then continue with the rest of the mission

2) The rest of the mission is in fact complete, which means I fly straight for the Anomaly, drop everyone off, complete the mission and then move onto the next one.

On 2021-02-10 at 2:05 PM, Faulcun said:

So again I ask, whats the point of the railjack?

Literally completing everything else in the mission: destroying fighter ships en masse with a variety of Battle Avionics, wiping out Crew Ships with the Forward Artillery Cannon, traversing throughout the map to reach different clumps of enemies and assisting allies with the outside part of any non-anomaly or non-derelict objectives. That's.........

Literally the point of Railjack.

Edited by Kategari
This guy has a weird sense of time
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Why are we still giving attention to this factually incorrect post?

Railjack Guns are significantly easier to use for same or more Damage.

Railjack Ordnances can destroy Fighters by the handfull, when the AoE options of Archwings are either too small or too weak.

The Forward Artillery can easily OHKO Crewships, when Archwings can't do any lethal Damage to them

Railjack Abilities are blatanty overpowered when Archwings' are borderline useless.

The Railjack is undeniably faster than any Archwing, and the fastest way to move in Archwing is to get Slingshot by a Railjack.

What is the purpose of the Railjack you ask? To be and beat the whole Gamemode. Unless you're still in 2019, when Archwings were indeed a better Railjack.

Archwings work as Taxis from Railjack to Point B, nothing more. Railjack outdoes them in everything else, which you'd know if you had played enough with any well configured Railjack. There's nothing to debate here, you're just wrong.

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On 2021-02-10 at 2:26 AM, JeranTek said:

When properly configured, the Railjack is faster at racing somewhere, it's faster over short distances, it outdoes the damage an AW can do by an order of magnitude, but why bother with it when you have an Archwing?

Key words being "when properly configured". Im saying railjacks should be twice as fast, if not more, right out of the gate with no configuration. Archwing weapons are just as powerful as railjack weapons. My velocitus one shots all the enemies in the veil same as a railjack since the enemy nerf. The only difference is in railjack powers. Other archwing weapons are more than effective as well "when properly configured".

So yeah, why hang out on a railjack compensating for movement while the pilot is flying around when you can jump out and do the job easier in your archwing.

On 2021-02-11 at 2:29 AM, Kategari said:

First off - if you're going to add random stipulations the entire conversation falls apart. Secondly - I don't know what kind of scuffed slow ass Railjack you're using (even though you claim to have all the ingredients for a fast Railjack) but the Railjack is a massive, massive cry from a quote unquote "Short Bus" (what is that?? As opposed to a Long Bus??).

........ wHaT???
You do realise that even in a car race, if one driver beats another driver by a whopping 10s let alone 20s, that's an absolutely massive difference??? What in tarnation is your acceptable margin? 1min? 2min? 

Fifty Five Years??

I dunno how you handle Sentient Anomaly missions but for me and especially with a team, 1 of 2 scenarios happen:

1) I fly the Railjack straight for the Anomaly, drop someone off, then continue with the rest of the mission

2) The rest of the mission is in fact complete, which means I fly straight for the Anomaly, drop everyone off, complete the mission and then move onto the next one.

Literally completing everything else in the mission: destroying fighter ships en masse with a variety of Battle Avionics, wiping out Crew Ships with the Forward Artillery Cannon, traversing throughout the map to reach different clumps of enemies and assisting allies with the outside part of any non-anomaly or non-derelict objectives. That's.........

Literally the point of Railjack.

This isnt about a single race. Its about the entire mission. There is ZERO reason to stay on the railjack if you arent the pilot.

Your car race falls apart the moment you take it off a race track. Yes, if i get beat by 10s on a race track.... thats a massive difference and i would say ok lets use your car. If i get beat by 10s traveling from new york to atlanta..... all of a sudden thats not as big a deal is it? Maybe I take my own car cause i dont like your driving.

How about we run track? If you ran a 100m dash in 13s, and i did it in 23s.... yes thats a massive difference. If you ran a mile in 10min flat, and i did it in 10 min 10s.... now its not that big a deal. How about a marathon? if you were the fastest at 5 hours and 11 min..... and i ran it right behind you at 5 hours, 11min and 10s thats almost nothing in difference.

These missions are not large enough in scale to make a difference in what vehicle you use to travel from point A to point B. Im simply looking for incentive to stay on the railjack and play as a crew as intended.

On 2021-02-11 at 6:13 AM, Petroklos said:

Why are we still giving attention to this factually incorrect post?

Railjack Guns are significantly easier to use for same or more Damage.

Railjack Ordnances can destroy Fighters by the handfull, when the AoE options of Archwings are either too small or too weak.

The Forward Artillery can easily OHKO Crewships, when Archwings can't do any lethal Damage to them

Railjack Abilities are blatanty overpowered when Archwings' are borderline useless.

The Railjack is undeniably faster than any Archwing, and the fastest way to move in Archwing is to get Slingshot by a Railjack.

What is the purpose of the Railjack you ask? To be and beat the whole Gamemode. Unless you're still in 2019, when Archwings were indeed a better Railjack.

Archwings work as Taxis from Railjack to Point B, nothing more. Railjack outdoes them in everything else, which you'd know if you had played enough with any well configured Railjack. There's nothing to debate here, you're just wrong.

Im sorry, i simply disagree with your premise.

"Railjack Guns are significantly easier to use for same or more Damage." IF you are the pilot. If you are not, there is no reason to stay on the ship. Archwing weapons kill things now just as easily, and some ohk. 

"The Forward Artillery can easily OHKO Crewships, when Archwings can't do any lethal Damage to them" IF modded for it. Otherwise you are taking multiple shots. And if the railjack is dealing with enemy fighters, there is no reason to wait on you when I can use the slingshot to board the ship, or fly over and destroy it myself. In this case, there is every incentive to get off the ship and do it myself.

Im simply saying there needs to be more incentive in these missions to be on the railjack and operate it as a crew as intended.

i understand everybody here has a perfectly modded railjack. When you take it all off and have a fresh base railjack, Then what? I want to see a significant difference between a railjack at base with no mods vs a fully modded archwing. This is where the difference needs to be massive. THAT is the scale that railjack missions should require. At the current scale and size, combined with limited objectives, railjacks differ marginally even fully modded.

railjacks are literally nothing more than suped up archwings with room for 4. Im just asking for something more significant.

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3 minutes ago, Faulcun said:

I want to see a significant difference between a railjack at base with no mods vs a fully modded archwing. This is where the difference needs to be massive.

So I can comfortably boil your argument down to "I hate Archwings and wish that they were deleted from existence"? Or is it more of a "I wish Archwing missions were mini-missions inside the main Railjack missions, and that Railjack enemies all ignored Archwings entirely"?

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No, I dont mind archwings at all or their missions.

We have an interstellar combat vessel thats meant to have a manned crew to operate and warframes with wings strapped to their backs.  There should be a larger gap between the roles a railjack plays vs the archwings. Right now, they both do the exact same thing.

even if the railjack takes damage, You essentially dont have to do anything until there is a critical breach.  A good pilot doesnt get boarded anyways. The crew can literally stand around if they wanted to and would have no bearing on mission success.

Im looking for larger, more in depth roles for both, to reduce the redundancy and make the missions more engaging.

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This topic and the entire thread is so incredibly wrong yet the confidence you're portraying this incorrect information is staggering.

On 2021-02-13 at 12:19 PM, Faulcun said:

There is ZERO reason to stay on the railjack if you arent the pilot.

REASONS TO STAY IN THE RAILJACK WHEN YOU'RE NOT A PILOT. READY? LET'S GO:

1) The Railjack has something called the Forward Artillery Cannon. This is a gigantic meta hyper space death laser that destroys Crew Ships from over Forty Kilometres Away. 

2) The Railjack's side guns allow you to basically play like the Pilot without the movement. You get access to a 360* gun that absolutely outperforms most Archguns and you get access to any Battle Avionics that the owner of the Railjack has installed that are without a shred of a doubt in any possible way shape or form Massively Outperform ALL Archwing Abilities. It also gives you access to potentially a Missile that can seek enemies out and destroy them if you know how to lock on.
And there are 2 of them.

3) The Railjack's Engineering bay means you can rebuild any resources, so that you can continue using the Railjack in a normal capacity.

The Archwing does not have any of this.

And I'm going to be absolutely 1000% Frankly Honest with you: A lot of the things you've written in this thread really bring into question whether you've actually played Railjack even remotely as much as you claim to.

On 2021-02-13 at 12:19 PM, Faulcun said:

"The Forward Artillery can easily OHKO Crewships, when Archwings can't do any lethal Damage to them" IF modded for it. Otherwise you are taking multiple shots.

Is simply not true in any way shape or form. First off - there's only ONE Avionic (Forward Artillery), secondly as of right now, any shot that hits the Crew Ship's engines massively and ludicrously overkills the Crew Ship doing 6 digit damage EASILY, thirdly the Forward Artillery Avionic is only really necessary in some Veil Proxima missions and fourthly there's a thing called Plasma damage which strips armor making it even easier for you to 1-shot Crew Ships. This statement alone is enough to make me seriously question if you're just trolling or haven't played that much Railjack.
 

I'm done.

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14 hours ago, Kategari said:

1) The Railjack has something called the Forward Artillery Cannon. This is a gigantic meta hyper space death laser that destroys Crew Ships from over Forty Kilometres Away. 

2) The Railjack's side guns allow you to basically play like the Pilot without the movement. You get access to a 360* gun that absolutely outperforms most Archguns and you get access to any Battle Avionics that the owner of the Railjack has installed that are without a shred of a doubt in any possible way shape or form Massively Outperform ALL Archwing Abilities. It also gives you access to potentially a Missile that can seek enemies out and destroy them if you know how to lock on.
And there are 2 of them.

3) The Railjack's Engineering bay means you can rebuild any resources, so that you can continue using the Railjack in a normal capacity.

The Archwing does not have any of this.

And I'm going to be absolutely 1000% Frankly Honest with you: A lot of the things you've written in this thread really bring into question whether you've actually played Railjack even remotely as much as you claim to.

Just because you CAN doesnt mean you NEED to. The railjack doesnt take enough damage for any of that to matter. The ONLY time you HAVE to do anything repair wise is on a critical breach, and a GOOD pilot doesnt get boarded so damage to the engines is a non concern. Unless you are spamming powers and weapons and blow all your resources, there is no need for engineering at all. And even if you did, you can teleport to engineering and do it faster than telling somebody to go do it.

Archwings dont have any of this because archwings dont need any of this. They are two different things that do the same task. Thats my point.

14 hours ago, Kategari said:

Is simply not true in any way shape or form. First off - there's only ONE Avionic (Forward Artillery), secondly as of right now, any shot that hits the Crew Ship's engines massively and ludicrously overkills the Crew Ship doing 6 digit damage EASILY, thirdly the Forward Artillery Avionic is only really necessary in some Veil Proxima missions and fourthly there's a thing called Plasma damage which strips armor making it even easier for you to 1-shot Crew Ships. This statement alone is enough to make me seriously question if you're just trolling or haven't played that much Railjack.

You start off by telling me its not true in any way shape or form... and then proceed to tell me the only place the forward artillery avionic is only really necessary is in veil.

 

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On 2021-02-20 at 3:57 AM, Faulcun said:

You start off by telling me its not true in any way shape or form... and then proceed to tell me the only place the forward artillery avionic is only really necessary is in veil.

Have you experimented with this? Do you actually know what he's talking about? Oh, that's right. You've played heaps of RailJack and know exactly what it can and can't do so you're perfectly aware that an un-modded FA will one-shot any crew ship up to at least Gian Point. Later in the veil the crew ships take 2 shots if you body-shot them. The fix for this in the latter part of the veil is either to aim (hit the engines - about 1/3 of the side hit-box of the ship - and any crew-ship will die in one shot) or to use the Avionic that says "My FA will one-shot anything, anywhere."

So it's absolutely unnecessary for a vaguely competent forward gunner and a mostly incompetent one needs only a single avionic to compensate for their utter inability to aim at the broad side of a barn, and both of those only if they're deeper in the Veil than Gian Point.

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2 hours ago, JeranTek said:

Have you experimented with this? Do you actually know what he's talking about? Oh, that's right. You've played heaps of RailJack and know exactly what it can and can't do so you're perfectly aware that an un-modded FA will one-shot any crew ship up to at least Gian Point. Later in the veil the crew ships take 2 shots if you body-shot them. The fix for this in the latter part of the veil is either to aim (hit the engines - about 1/3 of the side hit-box of the ship - and any crew-ship will die in one shot) or to use the Avionic that says "My FA will one-shot anything, anywhere."

So it's absolutely unnecessary for a vaguely competent forward gunner and a mostly incompetent one needs only a single avionic to compensate for their utter inability to aim at the broad side of a barn, and both of those only if they're deeper in the Veil than Gian Point.

You dont start a counter argument by saying something is 100% false, and then admit that the base argument IS in fact true. That creates doubt and can almost invalidate the counter argument or diminish any actual point made. One would then wonder if you knew what you were talking about.

And yes, im well aware of what can be done pre, and post changes of scarlet spear. I have close to 5000 hours of mission time over 8 years. I assure you, ive spent some time playing this game.

This conversation started off on one particular topic, and changed to an overall grasp of what two systems do comparatively and together in the same game mode. Let me switch this up with two statements:

  • Railjacks need a full/partial crew in order to succeed. ie: Railjack missions cannot consistently be solo'd .
  • Railjacks are required to complete the missions. ie: Railjack missions cannot consistently be solo'd with archwing.

Now, im sure everybody here would agree with me that the above statements are 100% false even on the hardest current mission.

What that means is you have two things that can complete the same exact tasks. I have simply determined they both do the exact same thing, albeit slightly differently in function, just not differently enough. OR, in other words, the roles of railjack vs archwing need to be massively different.

Right now, you can choose either method and complete the missions within reasonable times. Im asking for more from the railjack. If archwings are fighters, and the railjack is a large enough vessel to carry a crew, it should be involved in much larger roles than merely being an alternative one way or the other.

I watched this past dev stream. Im not sure what to think about it yet. Lets just wait and see what happens in the next few weeks.

 

 

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5 hours ago, Faulcun said:

What that means is you have two things that can complete the same exact tasks. I have simply determined they both do the exact same thing, albeit slightly differently in function, just not differently enough. OR, in other words, the roles of railjack vs archwing need to be massively different.

Finally, we have reached the core of your argument. The title may be misleading, but I think many people would agree with what you're proposing overall.

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