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Mania (I think) needs to be toned way down.


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14 hours ago, SpringRocker said:

It's not random and you can do something about it, you just choose to spam melee without paying attention. It's obviously a challenge for you because even though you know it's coming you keep falling for it.

Just because you want to be lazy and spam a button for 20 minutes doesn't mean the game needs to be dumbed down even further to suit your wants.

 

14 hours ago, Scar.brother.help.me said:

so what are your options after you get switch-teleported?

SpringRocker is technically right, there is a tell prior to being switch teleported. The tell is just extremely short, positioned around your feet, and hard to notice even when standing still and looking for it. There is nothing that can be done once the ability tags you but the purpose of the tell is to give you a chance to dodge it.

So the problem with Mania is not that the ability is random, nor that it's too high damage, it's that the Tell for switch teleport has been horrendously bad since it was added and never actually does it's job. I think a lot more people would be willing to get on board with making the already in place mechanic for avoiding switch teleport actually function in a manner people can notice rather than modifying Mania's damage output. Would you two agree?

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On 2021-02-03 at 2:35 PM, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

Mobility is rewarded. The devs have said this multiple times. 

Stop face tanking things then complaining when you die. 

Steel path doesn't need to be nerfed. 

It's not the first time where you come in, post something with your condescending tone and totally miss the point.

Here's the the main issue (i'll even bold it out for you):

On 2021-02-03 at 1:33 PM, (XBOX)TehChubbyDugan said:

I died in a single hit from full health with healing active.

Noone says "NERF SP CUZ I DIED ;(". Rather than that thread is about asking DE to check if one of acolytes has some bullS#&$ damage stat on one of his/her abilities.

Knowing DE I wouldn't be surprised if acolytes have some leftover code that might be getting in the way since SP rework.

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3 minutes ago, deothor said:

 

It's not the first time where you come in, post something with your condescending tone and totally miss the point.

Here's the the main issue (i'll even bold it out for you):

Noone says "NERF SP CUZ I DIED ;(". Rather than that thread is about asking DE to check if one of acolytes has some bullS#&$ damage stat on one of his/her abilities.

Knowing DE I wouldn't be surprised if acolytes have some leftover code that might be getting in the way since SP rework.

They're not regular fodder enemies......just like a lich isn't a regular fodder enemy and still punishes the player for getting too close. 

They're only...you know....the acolytes of the guy that was imbued with powers by hunhow....they're like the only modicum of a quasi-challenge there is. 

You have 6 revives, and the option to recruit 3 teammates to further trivialize them as well.

If you get too close you run the risk of death. 

And the acolytes were already reviewed and changed by DE to fix one shots during the test period or when it was first released on PC.

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14 minutes ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

They're not regular fodder enemies......just like a lich isn't a regular fodder enemy and still punishes the player for getting too close. 

They're only...you know....the acolytes of the guy that was imbued with powers by hunhow....they're like the only modicum of a quasi-challenge there is. 

You have 6 revives, and the option to recruit 3 teammates to further trivialize them as well.

If you get too close you run the risk of death. 

If power differences vastly differ between acolytes because one of them has unchecked/unbalanced ability, while others don't... then.. Well.. Then something's wrong. There are no tiers between acolytes, so this should be looked at.

If mob oneshots you cause "whatever, it's fine just don't play solo" excuse, then this just gives even more ground for even more "whatever..." arguments.

14 minutes ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

And the acolytes were already reviewed and changed by DE to fix one shots during the test period or when it was first released on PC.

Ah yes, because DE is known for their spotless, perfect work which they (xD) always (xD) finish. At some point you'll run out of lube mate. Are you trying to get a job in DE :D ?

Seriously,.... xD... though.. Warframe is like swiss cheese full of holes because DEs work ethic is "we have 60% of content done, lets relase it and maybe patch it once or twice next year". Steel path rework was DE rushing at breakneck speed for relase. I am seriously not beliving in any "reviews" or "test periods" simply because I know how they threat players feedback.

Also have in mind we aren't talking about something you can test often. You need mania acolyte to spawn and she has to trigger correct combo. I myself experienced instant death from one of acolytes. It felt annoying, cause it was so random and instant.

I truly believe that DE (definitely, certainly 101%) "might" have missed a bug or 2 or 15 with their foolproof checks, revisits, reviews, tests and other cool words they only use to perk PR department up.

 

Edited by deothor
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1 minute ago, deothor said:

If power differences vastly differ between acolytes because one of them has unchecked/unbalanced ability, while others don't... then.. Well.. Then something's wrong. There are no tiers between acolytes, so this should be looked at.

If mob oneshots you cause "whatever, it's fine just don't play solo" excuse, then this just gives even more ground for even more "whatever..." arguments.

Ah yes, because DE is known for their spotless, perfect work which they (xD) always (xD) finish. At some point you'll run out of lube mate. Are you trying to get a job in DE :D ?

Seriously,.... xD... though.. Warframe is like swiss cheese full of holes because DEs work ethic is "we have 60% of content done, lets relase it and maybe patch it once or twice next year". Steel path rework was DE rushing at breakneck speed for relase. I am seriously not beliving in any "reviews" or "test periods" simply because I know how they threat players feedback.

Also have in mind we aren't talking about something you can test often. You need mania acolyte to spawn and she has to trigger correct combo. I myself experienced instant death from one of acolytes. It felt annoying, cause it was so random and instant.

 

I treat them all the same and don't get near any of them. That's why I don't die. And yet people still melee them. 

And they all have different abilities and weapons. These abilities and weapons have their own strengths and weaknesses. So depending on your playstyle, some may pose more of a threat than others depending on the person (and their reflexes).

 

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5 hours ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

They're not regular fodder enemies......just like a lich isn't a regular fodder enemy and still punishes the player for getting too close. 

 

5 hours ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

That's why I don't die. And yet people still melee them. 

And from here I see that you just didn't get "switched" and don't know what we are talking about. Here is some info for you:

Mania uses Switch-Teleport when you get far not close. If you just kill her in melee - there is no issue (at least never happened to me, and I farm SE pretty often). I personally get this problem when I want to lure the acolyte a bit away from the main farming area so I can pick up the essence later (when I get a cat buff). But sometimes it happens at random at a "shotgun" distance. So melee is actually the easiest and safest way to kill Acolytes which is opposite to your advise (excuse).

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1 hour ago, Scar.brother.help.me said:

 

And from here I see that you just didn't get "switched" and don't know what we are talking about. Here is some info for you:

Mania uses Switch-Teleport when you get far not close. If you just kill her in melee - there is no issue (at least never happened to me, and I farm SE pretty often). I personally get this problem when I want to lure the acolyte a bit away from the main farming area so I can pick up the essence later (when I get a cat buff). But sometimes it happens at random at a "shotgun" distance. So melee is actually the easiest and safest way to kill Acolytes which is opposite to your advise (excuse).

When I'm teleported I'm able to roll away as soon as possible. You also have transference. 

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On 2021-02-03 at 5:59 PM, (XBOX)TheWayOfWisdom said:

And the point is being able to take a hit...

That is quite a ridiculous argument, you know.

Just think about, any warframe with any mods at any level should be able to "take a hit"? Or do you have some special considerations for when your special rule should apply?

Personally I also think the whole idea that "yeah, here I can stand and tank everything, heheh" is quite wonky. Sure, in the Warframe sandbox universe some builds can do that with some enemies, but the idea that it should apply generally to Warframe, what? Or to any game at all? The whole concept is even worse than spin2win, like some old "immortal"-hack...

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1 minute ago, Graavarg said:

That is quite a ridiculous argument, you know.

Just think about, any warframe with any mods at any level should be able to "take a hit"? Or do you have some special considerations for when your special rule should apply?

Is Lavos not designed to be beefier than your "average" frame? Where does this modless take come into play? I'm expecting a modded frame with innately high defensive stats to be able to survive being hit from near max health.
I fail to see how playing according to a frame's design is a special rule.
 

5 minutes ago, Graavarg said:

Personally I also think the whole idea that "yeah, here I can stand and tank everything, heheh" is quite wonky. Sure, in the Warframe sandbox universe some builds can do that with some enemies, but the idea that it should apply generally to Warframe, what? Or to any game at all? The whole concept is even worse than spin2win, like some old "immortal"-hack...

Lemme quote myself

On 2021-02-04 at 4:59 PM, (XBOX)TheWayOfWisdom said:

I'm not thinking that I can AFK facetank everything though? I'm playing like I can take a few hits then heal up (as Lavos is designed to do). Then I get hit by an attack that completely immobilizes me while doing extremely high damage hits in quick succession.

 

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13 hours ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

I treat them all the same and don't get near any of them. That's why I don't die. And yet people still melee them. 

I agree with you, just like to point out that it is possible to melee them, depending on weapon/stance. For instance, Decisive Judgement has a (beautiful) combo called "Consent something" (FW+block+melee) where you jump in for two fast attacks, doing a fair amount of damage & Impact procs. With Rolling Guard equipped it is quite natural to immediately just roll away afterwards.

What you simply cannot do is stand there and just hack at them until they die, and that is both perfectly fine and as it should be. After all, the Acolytes are the game's top assassins, on par with the Stalker. I actually spend most of the fight (against SP acolytes) in operator mode, constantly repositioning and hiding. 

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23 minutes ago, (XBOX)TheWayOfWisdom said:

Is Lavos not designed to be beefier than your "average" frame? Where does this modless take come into play? I'm expecting a modded frame with innately high defensive stats to be able to survive being hit from near max health.
I fail to see how playing according to a frame's design is a special rule.

Well, you are entitled to your expectations...

However, expectations are (very) subjective, and I fail to see how a game could be able to tailor damage output to each and every player's expectations. Or why it even should. For instance, I am pretty sure my "expectations" are different from yours (also concerning how much damage Lavos can actually take).

So if you really expect this from the game and it is not a special rule, you should be able to put it in clear and objective terms. I'll help you along with a few pointers:

  • If it only concerns Lavos, then it is a special rule. And even then, does it cover all Lavos builds, at all levels?
  • If your "not dying to too much damage"-rule only covers lvl 30 warframes with specific mods, then it is also a (very) special rule. 
  • If it doesn't apply to Lavos only, to what other warframes do your rule/expectation apply? All that are "beefier than average"? What does that mean?
  • Or is your expectation that there should be a cut-off rule for damage at "near max health", like a "damage-gate" mechanic in addition to the "shield-gate" mechanic? In that case the expectation is pretty strange, since there is no such mechanic actually in the game...

This is why I called the argument "ridiculous", it was inherently about the argument itself, not about you.

Edited by Graavarg
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10 minutes ago, Graavarg said:

Well, you are entitled to your expectations...

However, expectations are (very) subjective, and I fail to see how a game could be able to tailor damage output to each and every player's expectations. Or why it even should. For instance, I am pretty sure my "expectations" are different from yours (also concerning how much damage Lavos can actually take).

So if you really expect this from the game and it is not a special rule, you should be able to put it in clear and objective terms. I'll help you along with a few pointers:

  • If it only concerns Lavos, then it is a special rule. And even then, does it cover all Lavos builds, at all levels?
  • If your "not dying to too much damage"-rule only covers lvl 30 warframes with specific mods, then it is also a (very) special rule. 
  • If it doesn't apply to Lavos only, to what other warframes do your rule/expectation apply? All that are "beefier than average"? What does that mean?
  • Or is your expectation that there should be a cut-off rule for damage at "near max health", like a "damage-gate" mechanic in addition to the "shield-gate" mechanic? In that case the expectation is pretty strange, since there is no such mechanic actually in the game...

This is why I called the argument "ridiculous", it was inherently about the argument itself, not about you.

I'm not arguing that it's a special rule. I don't have an expectation how much damage Lavos should take. I know exactly how much he can take. I have an expectation that enemies will not do extremely high damage without a heavy tell/wind-up.

My argument is that in the course of content encouraged by DE, which maxes out at around 150 generally speaking, (content above those levels are not really encouraged by DE, though I would love to see a fuller use of the level spectrum, granted with better balanced scalers), a frame with significantly above median health and armor, modded for more health and more armor should not be effectively oneshot by attacks that are not heavily telegraphed.

Giving specific values is tedious as I don't have the time (or really desire) right now to calculate every frame's potential ehp and where exact cutoff values should be. Couple that with ehp values being all over the place (thanks 90% DR abilities) and you have a mess.
I do know that Lavos sits around #4-5 in ehp when using the following setup and not counting abilities. (I'll save my spiel on why 90% DR abilities are silly and should be nerfed in some fashion, and yes, I know there are health/armor boosting abilities, again, time and desire).

But here, some quick calcs for context:
Lavos modded with a full umbral set, Arcane Guardian, and Arcane Ultimatum has 28,114 ehp from health (we're really investing in reliable survivability, but trying to leave for for other mods). We'll say shield gating eats the first hit. You still get lifted though, so we'll make Lavos eat the next 3 attacks. Those next 3 attacks will do a combined ~31,161 damage (ignoring slash procs and that Mania has a decent crit chance). And there's nothing you can do about that that damage. You have to eat it since you're immobilized.

You know how to solve that? Make the first hit not lift (and removing damage multipliers from the stance would be nice). The top ~10% of warframes with regard to armor can survive the first hit to health with a full umbral set (the best bang for your buck for boosting ehp with regards to mod efficiency and reliability) and Arcane Guardian. More if you dedicate additional mod/arcane slots into survivability.

In conclusion: I expect a frame that is #4-5 on an ehp list (that uses a fair amount of investment into survivability) to be able to survive a non-telegraphed attack.

Alternative view: Mania has 2.3-6.9x the damage of Violence, despite both being melee frames. Outliers get reigned in.

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48 minutes ago, (XBOX)TheWayOfWisdom said:

I'm not arguing that it's a special rule. I don't have an expectation how much damage Lavos should take. I know exactly how much he can take. I have an expectation that enemies will not do extremely high damage without a heavy tell/wind-up.

My argument is that in the course of content encouraged by DE, which maxes out at around 150 generally speaking, (content above those levels are not really encouraged by DE, though I would love to see a fuller use of the level spectrum, granted with better balanced scalers), a frame with significantly above median health and armor, modded for more health and more armor should not be effectively oneshot by attacks that are not heavily telegraphed.

Giving specific values is tedious as I don't have the time (or really desire) right now to calculate every frame's potential ehp and where exact cutoff values should be. Couple that with ehp values being all over the place (thanks 90% DR abilities) and you have a mess.
I do know that Lavos sits around #4-5 in ehp when using the following setup and not counting abilities. (I'll save my spiel on why 90% DR abilities are silly and should be nerfed in some fashion, and yes, I know there are health/armor boosting abilities, again, time and desire).

But here, some quick calcs for context:
Lavos modded with a full umbral set, Arcane Guardian, and Arcane Ultimatum has 28,114 ehp from health (we're really investing in reliable survivability, but trying to leave for for other mods). We'll say shield gating eats the first hit. You still get lifted though, so we'll make Lavos eat the next 3 attacks. Those next 3 attacks will do a combined ~31,161 damage (ignoring slash procs and that Mania has a decent crit chance). And there's nothing you can do about that that damage. You have to eat it since you're immobilized.

You know how to solve that? Make the first hit not lift (and removing damage multipliers from the stance would be nice). The top ~10% of warframes with regard to armor can survive the first hit to health with a full umbral set (the best bang for your buck for boosting ehp with regards to mod efficiency and reliability) and Arcane Guardian. More if you dedicate additional mod/arcane slots into survivability.

In conclusion: I expect a frame that is #4-5 on an ehp list (that uses a fair amount of investment into survivability) to be able to survive a non-telegraphed attack.

Alternative view: Mania has 2.3-6.9x the damage of Violence, despite both being melee frames. Outliers get reigned in.

I fail to see how it changes anything (even if you are kind of moving the target, now it is the "telegraphing a move"). In a game where you can withstand 99.99% of the enemies you want to nerf one of the very few that can take you down more easily. But it is still unclear exactly why this should happen, if it should be adapted only to "beefier" warframes (like Lavos) and if so why the rest of the warfames are allowed to be killed, but not the beefy build you want to survive.

If your expectation of survival is number-based, things should be crystal clear: Mania and the other enemies simply outdamaged your health & healing. Their combined damage exceded your expectation (of "beefiness"), and all you need to do is revise that expectation. And change how you handle the threat, accordingly. If, on the other hand, your expectation is feeling-based, well, while you can vent your feelings here in the forum, no-one can really help you with that part.

As to the "signalling of attacks", that seems like a pretty strange thing too. The only reason I can see for such a signal is that your wish/expectation to survive. But few enemies come with as much signal as an acolyte dropping in, the screen flashes, stuff happens and they even get their own icon on the minimap. Even pre-mission you know that the acolytes tend to drop in and say hello. There really is lots of time to prepare, even if you initially don't know who is coming. It is especially strange since Mania and the other acolytes are continuously being beaten by "weaker" warframes than Lavos (the last time I took down SP Mania it was with max duration Nova), which sort of indicates that it should be quite possible to do so with Lavos as well.

However, if we boil everything down to the basics you want Mania nerfed so he don't beat your ass. That is understandable. However, just as understandable are the viewpoints (expressed in this and other threads) that Warframe is pretty easy as it is and that we need all the dangerous enemies we can get (or in other words: the last thing we need are more enemy nerfs). I like the acolytes because even in your best gear they will kill you every now and then, if you make mistakes (especially when soloing). But to nerf enemies simply because they occasionally manage to kill me seem quite strange though, instead that risk of dying feels like it should be part of the game. To me anyway, but then on the other hand I am still sad and salty about the Wolf being totally emasculated (due to a choir of crying Tennos), now there was a real enemy (pre-nerfs).

Edited by Graavarg
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26 minutes ago, Graavarg said:

As to the "signalling of attacks", that seems like a pretty strange thing too. The only reason I can see for such a signal is that your wish/expectation to survive. But few enemies come with as much signal as an acolyte dropping in, the screen flashes, stuff happens and they even get their own icon on the minimap. Even pre-mission you know that the acolytes tend to drop in and say hello. There really is lots of time to prepare, even if you initially don't know who is coming. It is especially strange since Mania and the other acolytes are continuously being beaten by "weaker" warframes than Lavos (the last time I took down SP Mania it was with max duration Nova), which sort of indicates that it should be quite possible to do so with Lavos as well.

It’s not them signaling their presence that’s the issue. They do that well enough. It’s the attack that isn’t done well. And it’s not a matter of beating them. You can simply choose one of the many abilities that just disable enemies completely sure, but I’m looking for Mania to respect the fact that for this mission, I have chosen to play a warframe that has high defenses. Again, not asking for damage to be nerfed to the ground. My proposed solution didn’t even touch his damage.

26 minutes ago, Graavarg said:

However, if we boil everything down to the basics you want Mania nerfed so he don't beat your ass. That is understandable. However, just as understandable are the viewpoints (expressed in this and other threads) that Warframe is pretty easy as it is and that we need all the dangerous enemies we can get (or in other words: the last thing we need are more enemy nerfs). I like the acolytes because even in your best gear they will kill you every now and then, if you make mistakes (especially when soloing). But to nerf enemies simply because they occasionally manage to kill me seem quite strange though, instead that risk of dying feels like it should be part of the game. To me anyway, but then on the other hand I am still sad and salty about the Wolf being totally emasculated (due to a choir of crying Tennos), now there was a real enemy (pre-nerfs).

You do know that they actually buffed the Wolf’s damage right? They reduced his tankiness, which is not what I’m advocating for with Mania. So the Wolf is irrelevant to this situation.

Risk of dying is fine. If I choose any one of the many ways to completely disable enemies or become outright invulnerable, Acolytes became as trivial as any other enemy, with the only difference being that they have their name at the top of the screen.

I don’t want that. I want an enemy I actually fight in a meaningful way. I don’t want to play tag your dead, nor do I want to just stand and laugh as he whales on me.

I propose changes to Mania so that he doesn’t feel “cheap” to fight. His only attack being a guaranteed kill for the majority of the roster feels cheap. With my proposed change, he could still kill you in the same amount of time, but now you can actually fight back after being tagged. All frame can then survive a tag (Lighter frames will need shield gate for it, but that’s why it’s there.)

Warframe already has plenty of dangerous enemies. They’re usually just neutered by the fact that we kill so fast.
Buffing enemy health is fine (as I’ve already said in this thread). Leaving abnormally high damage attacks that immobilize you is not.

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On 2021-02-10 at 10:27 AM, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

When I'm teleported I'm able to roll away as soon as possible. You also have transference. 

Oh you! Record a video where you let Mania switch-teleport you and then roll out of it. It won't prove that Mania is well balanced in any way and the dialog will continue but at least you will prove your words.

 :3

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On 2021-02-10 at 9:14 PM, Graavarg said:

As to the "signalling of attacks", that seems like a pretty strange thing too. The only reason I can see for such a signal is that your wish/expectation to survive. But few enemies come with as much signal as an acolyte dropping in, the screen flashes, stuff happens and they even get their own icon on the minimap. Even pre-mission you know that the acolytes tend to drop in and say hello. There really is lots of time to prepare, even if you initially don't know who is coming. It is especially strange since Mania and the other acolytes are continuously being beaten by "weaker" warframes than Lavos (the last time I took down SP Mania it was with max duration Nova), which sort of indicates that it should be quite possible to do so with Lavos as well.

There is a difference between good challenge and difficulty for the sake of difficulty. I'm a big advocate for Warframe becoming more skill reliant, with reaction/pattern recognition-based defense, and yet I absolutely despise how the game treats most of their so-called VIP enemies. 

What you suggest in the quoted part boils down to "solve your problem in the arsenal". And while yes, on one hand your build needs to be tailored to the situation, and you can't expect to face tank lvl150 enemies with an uncloaked Ivara, player agency in-mission should still play a relevant role in combat. Attacks with a one shot potential and no telegraph remove that player agency, and devolve encounters either into a cheap dice roll, or an absolute slog in which you try to plink away the target's health outside of its aggro range. I'm not against one shots: on the contrary, I believe warframe should introduce many, many more of those. But, they absolutely need to come with a telegraph or some kind of easily recognizable pattern, that tells you "you have 1.5 seconds to dodge this/stun the boss/activate some sort of defense, or say goodbye to your life".

Imagine, instead of a random switch teleport followed by a stun-induced death, that Mania marks you with a symbol, that follows you, hovering on top of your frame. After around 3 seconds, the symbol flashes bright acolyte-red, with a sound cue, and stops in place creating a 5m aura around it. Mania teleports to the symbol one second after the flash, and kills everything Tenno-related (including an inactive frame due to transference, no cheap operator tricks) in the area with a wind explosion (thematic, since he can use turbulence). Give him another ability that can create slowing areas of storming winds on the field, and you have an engaging, challenging miniboss that encourages mobility, spatial awareness and demands your attention, instead of being a gear check that's either a pushover or an unavoidable death sentence. 

Telegraphs are the essence of good challenge, because they allow fair but massively powerful attacks that in turn shifts the core of your survivability from how much ehp you have, to how well you know timings encounters, thus creating difficulty that can't be overcome purely through powercreep, which Warframe desperately needs.  

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On 2021-02-15 at 12:28 PM, (XBOX)ShonFr0st said:

Imagine, instead of a random switch teleport followed by a stun-induced death, that Mania marks you with a symbol, that follows you, hovering on top of your frame. After around 3 seconds, the symbol flashes bright acolyte-red, with a sound cue, and stops in place creating a 5m aura around it. Mania teleports to the symbol one second after the flash, and kills everything Tenno-related (including an inactive frame due to transference, no cheap operator tricks) in the area with a wind explosion (thematic, since he can use turbulence).

I really, really think we have all other advantages in the game on our side, except numbers. So I really, really do not feel that I should get even more hard-coded help from the developers. So yes, while I can imagine your solution, I think it would make it "too easy".

Since you make the point for "skill", I also think that you are imagining this the wrong way, what you should be imagining is an enemy that has all the abilities and damage output that you have, including the option to go "operator" (and stunlock you with Lockdown). Including casting time (which could equal the "signalling"). Because then you would be imagining a game where the stats are even and skill actually decides. I also fail to see what nerfing enemies has to do with "increased player skill", to me your suggestion rather seems to imply the need for "less skill".

Since I do the 5 Steel Path Incursion alerts just about every day, and the occasional other Steel Path mission with friends in between, I've handled more than 5 Mania fights since this thread started. I also switch warframe & build a lot (to avoid Warframe becoming boring), so the encounters have been quite different. None of the over 50 acolytes, including Mania, has managed to kill me so far, and that is decidedly not because I am such a brilliant player. It is simply because I know their abilities, I know my abilities and weapons, and I am prepared.

This thread has been great in making me focus more on what the acolytes do and what I do, and as a result my occasional slip-ups (= "what, killed by the acolyte, ouch!") seems to have evaporated, for the moment at least. But after 50+ acolytes in all kinds of setups, and with more focus on what actually is happening, I also call BS on the need to nerf the acolytes further. There is no such need, period.

In fact, considering the success rate acolytes might be a bit too wimpy. So if I would get to decide what to do with them, I would go the other way, double or triple the Steel Essence reward and make the Acolytes respectively harder (= so tough they kill double or triple the amount of Tennos they currently do). Because with that increased reward AND increased risk, I would have to be laser-focused and on my toes, the game would be more exciting and winning or losing an acolyte fight would have a lot more meaning. The players skilled in all aspects of Warframe would get a little more Steel Essence (as reward for their hard-earned skill), while the others would get an added incentive to become better. I would also change the reward rules so that anyone killed/downed by an acolyte would lose half/a third of their personal Steel Essence drop (from that acolyte, per instance of getting killed/downed).

Edited by Graavarg
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On 2021-02-17 at 9:43 AM, Graavarg said:

Since you make the point for "skill", I also think that you are imagining this the wrong way, what you should be imagining is an enemy that has all the abilities and damage output that you have, including the option to go "operator" (and stunlock you with Lockdown). Including casting time (which could equal the "signalling").

I'm sorry, but I have to strongly disagree here. It simply does not work like that in a PvE game, much less in a horde shooter. This is because the player character and enemy units must fulfill vastly different roles: you are a one man army that has to fight dozens of enemies at a time, and they must in turn be manageable by a single player, through limitations that should be as hidden as possible. The player has access to instant tools (abilities and mobility) in order to meaningfully react to multiple threats that cannot humanly be predicted all at once, and thus need quick responses; enemies need proper tells and limitations so that they feel fair to fight even when vastly outnumbered.

Look at Doom: by no means an easy game, and yet every single unit has telegraphed attacks, projectile weapons that encourage active dodging (instead of passively relying on an invisible accuracy malus on hitscan enemies when you move, that again, puts everything into RNG's hands), and a "token" system that allows only a limited number of threats to act on the player at once. I'm not advocating for this last measure, but the point is, we can't possibly balance VIPs to mirror a player's arsenal. I don't know if you've ever messed around in the simulacrum with friendly fire turned on, but trust me, it isn't fun in the slightest. A player's abilities aren't designed with tells in mind, the animation is mostly for flavor's sake, and the delay just to make some decision making matter (and, in fact, we have the tradeoff of using a mod slot to reduce this delay thanks to natural talent). This is also why I absolutely despise Necramechs as enemies: they are a lazy copy/paste of the player-controlled unit, with some AI slapped on top, and because of it their ability/charge usage fully comes down to whenever the AI feels like it, and having no telegraph because they are directly copied from a system (the player character) that doesn't need tells, it felt unbelievably cheap whenever a Bonewidow lifted you at random with an unavoidable Firing Line (that, again, is designed to be unavoidable, because it is meant to be used against helpless rank and file enemies. Thank god it's gone), or an instant slide charge hits you before you have the chance to initiate a bullet jump. That is also why I dislike Kuva Liches as bosses: they are easy because their stats do not scale that high, but their abilities are still a wasted opportunity. You can avoid most of them through tanking, they are instant, and they do not pose a reaction-based threat. Except the grapple. It has wonky tracking sometimes, but it is functionally a death sentence if you get hit, and it is telegraphed well enough. Imagine that applied to frequent abilities, and you have an adrenaline filled combat experience in which you are bombarded with big danger signs, and you need to find your way out, on the fly, with mobility and abilities. 

The point, in all that, is: you can't design a PvE challenge like if it were a PvP game. Not in a horde shooter, the difference in mechanics between what the player is capable of and what an enemy is supposed to do is exceedingly wide.  I know it's a big cliche at this point, but the Soulslike genre got PvE challenge down perfectly in its various installments. Big attacks, big telegraphs. Of course, Warframe's pace is much faster, and we have less animation locks on our characters, so it would be more "Big attacks, telegraphs that give you just enough time to bullet jump away, if you were paying attention". Moving away from an exclusively gear-based challenge and more into a reaction-based one, that also calls for your mechanical skills, would be a great step towards a more engaging experience. 

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9 hours ago, (XBOX)ShonFr0st said:

I'm sorry, but I have to strongly disagree here. It simply does not work like that in a PvE game, much less in a horde shooter. This is because the player character and enemy units must fulfill vastly different roles: you are a one man army that has to fight dozens of enemies at a time, and they must in turn be manageable by a single player, through limitations that should be as hidden as possible.

...

 

The point, in all that, is: you can't design a PvE challenge like if it were a PvP game. Not in a horde shooter, the difference in mechanics between what the player is capable of and what an enemy is supposed to do is exceedingly wide. 

...

Moving away from an exclusively gear-based challenge and more into a reaction-based one, that also calls for your mechanical skills, would be a great step towards a more engaging experience. 

Your logical constructs doesn't hold water. First you designate Warframe as a "horde shooter only" (while "horde shooter" only cover a part of Warframe content) and then you apply your own designation as the grounds for why Warframe is "wrong". I also fail to see how fighting one single acolyte (with a team of up to four players) can, in any way, be designated as something "horde"-based. Even if the acolyte spawns in the middle of a throng of 50 enemies he is a singular threat, with his own specific attacks. Which, both in-game and in the lore is explicitly to "kill Tenno". The current acolytes are the opposite of "horde shooting", and I would even go as far as stating that is by (game) design. In a solo mission (or being caught alone by an acolyte assassin) that translates into "one vs. one", and very much so.

So, your claims of Warframe being a "horde shooter" (I think most would classify it as a "sandbox looter shooter") is not in sync with your wish for more focus on skill-based one-on-one fighting, because that is basically the goal for the "attack signalling"-argument. You can't have it both ways, either you see Warframe as a "horde shooter" from which follows that skill-based one-on-one fighting is "out" (by your own arguments), or "attack-signalling" should be implemented in one-on-one fighting to focus more on skill, from which follows that Warframe is not a "horde shooter". Now, I am just pointing out the logical inconsistency here, I actually disagree with such a simple classification for Warframe ("horde shooter"), I completely disagree with the idea that there are some cosmic rules a game would have to follow if someone says it belongs in a certain "genre" and I am not convinced that "attack signalling" is a pre-condition for using "skills" when fighting the acolytes.

While there are ways to handle acolytes reliably (at around 150 level, with additional SP buffs), being able doing so "without skill" is just ridiculous. And using "fighting skill" for the short time it takes to kill the acolyte is just a part of that skill-set, applying your "skill" starts in the arsenal in your orbiter when you construct your loadout & build(s) for the mission. Even if you copy everything from an "OP megakill acolytes!!!"-video on Youtube, you need a certain amount of skill to actually make it work in-game (at SP level).

Finally, I totally fail to see why extra help in the form of "attack signalling" would entail using "more skill", since such a mechanic would actually make the fight easier. If you give players several seconds to avoid an attack (which you can then very easily do by entering Void Mode), you would have to buff the acolytes in other ways to make the fight equally hard. Since we are talking about a fight that thousands of players has handled tens and hundreds of times without all that many problems, and since you claim that you don't want just to nerf the acolytes, it is a bit funny that your suggestion only focuses on this "attack signalling"-nerf. So, on that note, if "attack signalling" was implemented, how would you make sure that the fight didn't become easier? Or in other words, how would you buff the acolytes to the same degree?

- - -

We did a 3-man Deimos SP survival yesterday, since one friend needed Orokin Cells and everyone always wants more Steel Essence and Riven Slivers (and all the other loot of course, more loot is always better 🙂). Since it was a "chill friends"-mission, there was no real in-depth team design and we ended up with Khora, Rhino and Wukong (modded for respective roles and the mission, of course). During the 75 minutes we stayed no-one was killed by an acolyte, but only a few of the acolyte fights were "easy" (dumb-ass acolyte getting caught down in the shallow water pools). And every time the screen flickers, you can just feel the team-wise pulse starting to increase and an increased focus on "getting ready" (with your skill-set). We can debate what skill is or isn't in Warframe, but there is absolutely nothing anyone could say that would make me think that SP acolyte fights doesn't have skill involved (to a much larger degree than handling "the hordes" in the game).

Finally, without disagreement there would be no discussion, and engaging in civil, logical and factual discussion from differing viewpoints is the mother of enlightenment, and enlightenment is the way to real knowledge. Only dumb schmucks would think that a discussion about differing views is about "winning". But since the arguments are pretty clear from both sides there might be diminishing returns in simply continuing the discussion by re-stating them again and again?

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Which ever 1 had the crushing slash proc. He's the 1 that eats me w/o the correct frame.  I hate being forced to run invisible frames like rhino skin or Nezha- Halo builds. I can run these frames at a high level and survive everything,  but I'd rather enjoy surviving with Zephyr prime or Frost prime.  

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50 minutes ago, Graavarg said:

First you designate Warframe as a "horde shooter only" (while "horde shooter" only cover a part of Warframe content)

First off, I don't get the aggressive tone, I felt this was a civil and productive discussion, and honestly I was enjoying it. I hold nothing against you or your position, I'd just like to explain why I feel Warframe handles these types of enemies in a suboptimal way. 

Let's get started with this: the pieces of content in Warframe that don't mainly revolve around 1vMany fights are probably Exploiter, Rathuum/Index and Eidolons. Regular play, both in open world and missions, is mostly centered on killing large groups of enemies. Surely "horde shooter" is generic, but it's just a handy term to quickly get across the general mechanics: you are one (or 4) and fight lots of stuff. Somehow it seems you feel this is a jab at the game since you get defensive about it, but it's just a statement, there's nothing wrong with being a horde shooter. 

1 hour ago, Graavarg said:

You can't have it both ways, either you see Warframe as a "horde shooter" from which follows that skill-based one-on-one fighting is "out" (by your own arguments)

By my own arguments... where? Why would being a horde shooter exclude having good 1v1 fights? I'm arguing that warframe should approach both things, and that both things are benefitted by telegraphs. I'm also arguing that you can't design the enemy like you design the player. We are meant to instantly deal with single, regular enemies in large groups, if you just copy that into the enemy, you have a unit that treats us, a single "VIP" entity, just like a rank and file enemy inside a horde, and that's not fun. My examples of Bonewidow and the Simulacrum were meant to highlight that. I'm restating this because you haven't addressed it, that's all. 

1 hour ago, Graavarg said:

I completely disagree with the idea that there are some cosmic rules a game would have to follow if someone says it belongs in a certain "genre"

But, I didn't appeal to any cosmic rule. What of what I wrote, exactly, appeared without being accompanied by argumentation? See above for the whole "genre" discussion

1 hour ago, Graavarg said:

and I am not convinced that "attack signalling" is a pre-condition for using "skills" when fighting the acolytes.

Why are you taking my points in isolation, though? Let me reiterate: you can, at current, completely trivialize the fight with one of the many immortal frames we have. Just today I had a fun little encounter with a zero forma Revenant, with just some strength, rolling guard and a decent melee, he died in 15 seconds without posing much of a threat, though he stunned me once with switch teleport. You see, if I had been using any other non-tank frame, that switch teleport, which came completely out of the blue, would have definitely killed me. My point isn't to just add telegraphs, it is to add a plethora of different high damage skills for these acolytes (and any vip enemy for that matter), that also happen to have a telegraph. This accomplishes 2 things: with enough abilities, a decent frequency in their use, and the ability to pierce some of our defenses (such as Mesmer skin, Iron skin, transference invulnerability, damage reduction through skills) you can, on one hand, threaten even tanky frames, and on the other, give every frame a chance at countering the blow with player skill, meaning quick reactions and timing knowledge.

 

6 hours ago, Graavarg said:

If you give players several seconds to avoid an attack (which you can then very easily do by entering Void Mode) you would have to buff the acolytes in other ways to make the fight equally hard.

I already responded to the whole "you just want to make the fight easier" argument, but I just want to highlight this because it's clear proof that you didn't even bother to read the same posts you quoted. 

In my first post, I wrote: 

On 2021-02-15 at 12:28 PM, (XBOX)ShonFr0st said:

Mania teleports to the symbol one second after the flash, and kills everything Tenno-related (including an inactive frame due to transference, no cheap operator tricks) in the area

There's no "several seconds", and void mode is already addressed. 

 

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13 hours ago, (XBOX)ShonFr0st said:

First off, I don't get the aggressive tone, I felt this was a civil and productive discussion, and honestly I was enjoying it. I hold nothing against you or your position, I'd just like to explain why I feel Warframe handles these types of enemies in a suboptimal way.

I am sorry you feel "aggression", I am only trying to be distinct and clear. And I really think your arguments were a bit all over the place. Especially the idea that by (you) classifying Warframe as a certain type of game some content is handled "wrong". If one would apply that kind of logic to literature, movies etc., there would only be a few "types" and they would all be the same. It's absolutely nothing personal (in any way), it's just that the logical structure (like I wrote) doesn't hold water. I did not want to go into a "formal logic"-type of discussion, since in my experience "boohoo, strawman argument!!!" etc. simply leads to a constructive discussion going into tailspin.

13 hours ago, (XBOX)ShonFr0st said:

Let's get started with this: the pieces of content in Warframe that don't mainly revolve around 1vMany fights are probably Exploiter, Rathuum/Index and Eidolons. Regular play, both in open world and missions, is mostly centered on killing large groups of enemies. Surely "horde shooter" is generic, but it's just a handy term to quickly get across the general mechanics: you are one (or 4) and fight lots of stuff. Somehow it seems you feel this is a jab at the game since you get defensive about it, but it's just a statement, there's nothing wrong with being a horde shooter. 

Of course there is nothing wrong with "horde shooters". But designating Warframe as a "horde shooter" is not correct, and deducing that parts of Warframe are wrong because those parts doesn't follow a generic "horde shooter"-concept is "doubly faulty", since Warframe isn't a "horde shooter" and even if it was there are no rules that say that other additional content in a "horde shooter" should be considered "wrong".  

What makes the argument even more suspect is that the discussion is focused on a fight against a single miniboss in the game, which is as far from "horde" you can get. Even mathematically, the next step would be "null" enemies.

So the whole "horde shooter"-thingy is a (logical) red herring. It only applies to the "skill"-part of the argument, since depending on mission you might need to "fight hordes" in order to get to the miniboss. From this follows that (if you chose a mission type with "hordes" in it) your skill is needed not only to select equipment and fight the acolyte, but also to select equipment and fight the hordes, and to combine these two main goals. Included in that "skill" demand is a myriad of different things, combinations and functions (which gets exponentially more complex if/when 4 players design a team together), but for this thread it is enough to combine all that into one word, "skill".

13 hours ago, (XBOX)ShonFr0st said:

By my own arguments... where? Why would being a horde shooter exclude having good 1v1 fights? I'm arguing that warframe should approach both things, and that both things are benefitted by telegraphs. I'm also arguing that you can't design the enemy like you design the player. We are meant to instantly deal with single, regular enemies in large groups, if you just copy that into the enemy, you have a unit that treats us, a single "VIP" entity, just like a rank and file enemy inside a horde, and that's not fun. My examples of Bonewidow and the Simulacrum were meant to highlight that. I'm restating this because you haven't addressed it, that's all. 

But, I didn't appeal to any cosmic rule.

You are appealing to "cosmic rules" all the time. Though I admit that "cosmic rule" might be a bit vague, and it is further obfuscated by me trying to be a little bit sarcastic. When you state "We are meant to instantly deal with..." in the quote above, to me that is a "cosmic rule" (in a sarcastic way, since you just state something as if it were a natural law of the cosmos). Or in other words, while you might feel such a "meaning" coming from somewhere/something, to me it is "cosmic bs". Let me explain: there is no such "meaning", in fact we are not meant to "kill enemies instantly", not even when they appear in large groups. That we are able to do so is a function of the game allowing all levels of players and gear to co-exist, so you are free to take your god-rivened meta-/end game-loadout to a Lith Survival on Earth and slaughter all enemies just by looking at them. But there is "no meaning" inherent in doing that, you are just able to do so due to the openness of the Warframe sandbox design. 

I don't care about Bonewidow or the Simulacrum, since this is about fighting a Steel Path acolyte. Whatever you an do in the simulacrum has no bearing on this, unless you look at it from the "skill"-viewpoint = training against the acolytes in the simulacrum before meeting them in real battle.

13 hours ago, (XBOX)ShonFr0st said:

Why are you taking my points in isolation, though? Let me reiterate: you can, at current, completely trivialize the fight with one of the many immortal frames we have. Just today I had a fun little encounter with a zero forma Revenant, with just some strength, rolling guard and a decent melee, he died in 15 seconds without posing much of a threat, though he stunned me once with switch teleport. You see, if I had been using any other non-tank frame, that switch teleport, which came completely out of the blue, would have definitely killed me. My point isn't to just add telegraphs, it is to add a plethora of different high damage skills for these acolytes (and any vip enemy for that matter), that also happen to have a telegraph. This accomplishes 2 things: with enough abilities, a decent frequency in their use, and the ability to pierce some of our defenses (such as Mesmer skin, Iron skin, transference invulnerability, damage reduction through skills) you can, on one hand, threaten even tanky frames, and on the other, give every frame a chance at countering the blow with player skill, meaning quick reactions and timing knowledge.

Because breaking down a theory into parts, and breaking those parts into smaller parts is how you logically determine if "the whole" is actually whole. If you include flawed arguments, conclusions and/or data the whole structure collapses. It's the general scientific method for logical conclusions. The other way would be conducting enough empiric experiments to get a statistically robust result, try to find the things explaining that result, and then logically constructing your hypothesis based on those building blocks. But this is a "logical" debate at it's core (otherwise we would be bombarding each other with statistics from acolyte fights and conclusions based on those statistics).

I generally think that cherry-picking single words or sentences as "arguments" (in a "hah, you said"-context) is a ridiculous and straight-out dumb way of conducting a discussion, and something best left for politicians. As long as anyone don't slide away from their core arguments (and thus nullify the basis of the discussion) a free-flowing debate is generally more productive.

On that note, the core of this discussion, as I understand it, is that Mania (or acolytes in general) should be nerfed because he (they) kills players quickly, and that this nerf should take the form of "a signal" before using one of his signature attacks. And this was coupled with a secondary hypothesis that from the lack of such "a signal" also follows that less skill is needed by players when fighting Mania (or the other acolytes). This secondary hypothesis was also put in it's counter-format, as "more skill" would be needed if the acolyte had such a "signal". Correct?

I think both of those theories still haven't been proven in any way, shape or form. Instead, as I've tried to point out, they "don't hold water" = they are full of holes = they are not correct.

I do however, completely agree with you that making fighting the acolytes longer, harder and more complex (which all translates into "more skill needed") would make it more interesting and more fun. But that is a different argument, and one that looks at acolytes as an "interesting and demanding challenge" rather than as a "container for Steel Essence delivery". Because currently the acolytes are just that, a container that delivers Steel Essence to players according to a "X per time"-concept, as long as the player(s) in question can meet two skill demands (managing the SP mission and beating the SP acolyte).

There are two main forces driving the content of Warframe: "loot and farming" and "fun and interesting". These two forces can both combine and counter-act each other, and how DE has handled them is the "secret" behind Warframe's 8-year success story. They are also constant driving forces on the forums, because when DE makes content that is more complicated and takes more time the "farmers" will howl, and when DE makes content simplifies farming the "fun & interesting" crowd will howl. Interestingly this acolyte-discussion has (in this current form) put the light squarely on this built-in conflict. Because if DE were to make the acolyte fight more challenging and time-consuming, the Steel Essence farmers would howl at the moon (or rather DE, considering how much screaming went on when DE changed the Steel Essence farm a couple of months back). On the other hand, by doing so (making fighting the acolytes more challenging) the game would become more interesting for the "challenge is fun"-crowd.

I think the current system is much better than it was, though I admit that the kuva farm was much better (ahem, I meant "Steel Essence" farm, of course) in it's original form. I also think there is a real possibility of win-win improvement, by making the acolytes tougher to fight (and so that you actually would have to fight them) and increasing the reward if you manage to beat them. After all, not even hardcore farmers can complain about more (complex) challenge if they get "more stuff".

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Funny to find this thread at the top of the forums when I popped over too them.  I ran an SP mission while doing some testing just now and Mania showed up.  I was geared to fight at a distance, in Titania.  Even my melee weapon is a Contagion Zaw, so there was absolutely no way I was trying to get close.

Mania ignored the damage from my Dex Pixia completely, first off.  Literally during the animation for transitioning out of Razorwing I got hit with the teleport, lifted instantly upon teleport and two shot because my shields were up.

Despite Inaros and Inaros Prime combined only being 1.2% of my playtime (most of that being on regular Inaros well before SP came out.) there's an awful lot of you talking trash about "baby MR 30 only knows how to play tank frames" while using tank frames to prove your non-existent points about "just don't get hit."  My Titania ran fine through Adaro until Mania showed up, and ran fine after.

I was at distance well outside of Mania's melee range.  Nothing else in the mission was causing me any grief at all.  Literally the instant I became susceptible to the teleport I was in front of Mania, lifted so that I have zero options, and then killed.  There is no counterplay to that, regardless of what you people think.  It's entirely down to how aggressive the AI is feeling, and if it decides to kill you without you being able to do anything about it or not.

None of the other acolytes do this, yet Mania instantly kills me every single time it spawns.  Mania is an "outlier" just like all the weapons they've nerfed.  They need to keep that same energy and you people need to stop defending bad design choices with "One shots are totally fine in a hoard shooter because being killed without counterplay available to you is a 'challenge' and here's my cherry picked video of not dying in Inaros as proof."

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On 2021-02-20 at 12:22 PM, Graavarg said:

I am sorry you feel "aggression", I am only trying to be distinct and clear.

Don't worry about it, it's the nature of a discussion, after all.

On 2021-02-20 at 12:22 PM, Graavarg said:

And I really think your arguments were a bit all over the place. Especially the idea that by (you) classifying Warframe as a certain type of game some content is handled "wrong".

I think we can agree that there are good ways and bad ways to design content. This transcends genre, and only concerns the relationship between the player and the content. Defining a genre makes the job much easier, because you can summarize the general mechanics the game follows. Of course, we also need to define what "good" and "bad" are. In my opinion, "good" enemy design makes sure that your options aren't invalidated, while slightly pushing you out of your comfort zone through specific mechanics, that again, must not invalidate your gear. As such, they need to rely on the constants of combat: mobility and reflexes. The problem with Mania (and warframe bosses in general) is twofold: he either keels over and dies immediately with specific strategy (tank/stealth frames + melee), or he punishes you in an unavoidable way with switch teleport. In the first case, there's no engagement, no being pushed out of your comfort zone, because all mechanics can be circumvented with gear; in the second, your gear is invalidated because outside of the meta, you have no way of resisting with the fundamentals of combat, since most boss moves are directly ported from the player arsenal, which is designed to be instant and unavoidable. 

On 2021-02-20 at 12:22 PM, Graavarg said:

But designating Warframe as a "horde shooter" is not correct

On 2021-02-20 at 12:22 PM, Graavarg said:

since Warframe isn't a "horde shooter"

Why? Isn't this appealing to "cosmic rules", as you say? There's no substantiation to these claims. My definition of Warframe as a horde shooter comes from empirical evidence: in 90% of content, you fight large hordes of endlessly respawning, densely packed enemies. Which is a horde, by definition. So you shoot hordes. Horde shooter. 

On 2021-02-20 at 12:22 PM, Graavarg said:

What makes the argument even more suspect is that the discussion is focused on a fight against a single miniboss in the game, which is as far from "horde" you can get.

You keep misrepresenting the reason why I mentioned horde shooters in the first place. It was a direct response to your claim that: 

On 2021-02-17 at 9:43 AM, Graavarg said:

what you should be imagining is an enemy that has all the abilities and damage output that you have, including the option to go "operator" (and stunlock you with Lockdown).

which is supposed to be a way to justify current enemy design. And I responded by saying that this is not a PvP game: in a PvP game, every tool the player owns has counterplay, because the enemy (other players) is on the same plane of importance as you, and should be capable of singlehandedly posing a threat. In a PvE game this is not the case, the enemy threat is made by tens of mobs at a time, and we have tools to deal with those groups (this isn't a cosmic rule, it is again empirically derived from how warframe abilities and weapons work). If you give the exact same tools to an AI boss, we, the player, are on the receiving end of those abilities designed to work without fail or counterplay against faceless goons, and as you can imagine, facing something that is completely out of your control isn't fun, just frustrating. That is why there was a massive uproar against the death lottery of requiem stabbing, your death was absolutely out of your control. If you give a boss tools like Stasis, Inferno, Miasma, Lockdown, lifting, Firing Line, Ensnare, or literally any other unavoidable AoE/CC as they are, you are just asking for a disastrous experience. Strong AoEs and CCs are fine as skills employed by PvE enemies, but they need to be avoidable either through sheer reflexes or pattern recognition, and you can do that only if you add telegraphs. 

A decent example of a good port from a playable character to a boss is Childe in Genshin Impact, in the first two phases the Boss can use the same melee/ranged combos of the character, but there are added initial delays to the moves, and there are many abilities created ex-novo specifically for the boss, all of which follow the "big damage, big telegraph" formula.

On 2021-02-20 at 12:22 PM, Graavarg said:

When you state "We are meant to instantly deal with..." in the quote above, to me that is a "cosmic rule"

I've responded to this in the previous sections, but in case you missed it: what you call "cosmic rules", is just evidence that can be surmised from the mechanics of the game. Dealing instantly with single fodder enemies is a constant of the game, and as such I use it to build my argument. The reason why I used that is in the paragraph above. 

On 2021-02-20 at 12:22 PM, Graavarg said:

Because breaking down a theory into parts, and breaking those parts into smaller parts is how you logically determine if "the whole" is actually whole.

  I perfectly agree here, but I don't agree when "breaking down a theory into parts" becomes building a strawman. Reducing my argument from "Let's give bosses frequent, powerful attacks that can threaten even pseudo-immortal frames, which, however, can be avoided with mechanical skill thanks to telegraphs" to

On 2021-02-20 at 12:22 PM, Graavarg said:

the core of this discussion, as I understand it, is that Mania (or acolytes in general) should be nerfed because he (they) kills players quickly, and that this nerf should take the form of "a signal" before using one of his signature attacks.

 is building a strawman.  

On 2021-02-20 at 12:22 PM, Graavarg said:

This secondary hypothesis was also put in it's counter-format, as "more skill" would be needed if the acolyte had such a "signal". Correct?

If, and only if, that signal gets added on top of actually threatening skills, skills that can pose a threat to a 50k ehp Inaros, a shield-gate abusing frame, a perma-invisible Ivara, a functionally invincible Revenant, a 95% DR frame, et cetera. Stuff like instant wipes, big damage spikes, crippling debuffs, area denial. Why does it add skill? Because in the current iteration of warframe, every single activity can be fully trivialized with a couple of good mods, and the acolytes are one of the most egregious examples. If you decouple almost fully the "avoiding damage" part of combat from gear, in specific instances, and delegate mechanical skill to that role (read: good timings, quick reactions, spatial awareness), you can, finally, have fair challenge and engagement. 

 

On 2021-02-20 at 12:22 PM, Graavarg said:

I also think there is a real possibility of win-win improvement, by making the acolytes tougher to fight (and so that you actually would have to fight them) and increasing the reward if you manage to beat them. After all, not even hardcore farmers can complain about more (complex) challenge if they get "more stuff".

I absolutely, wholeheartedly agree with this. After all, we agree on the fundamental concept, we just disagree with the method. I'm linking here a proposal by Nash, in my opinion one of the best warframe content creators out there (Nash Prime on yt), for a dungeon-style Deimos mission. I'd like you to pay attention to his suggestions about boss design, as that is the general idea I also share about how it should be handled, it could be clearer that way 

 

Edited by (XBOX)ShonFr0st
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