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Does Revenant really need a rework or changes?


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Been talking to a a few people about this frame. I put my opinion out there that his skin looks cool imo, but I refuse to touch the frame with the way it currently is. I got many answers with people flexing about Revenant and how god tier with him they are, but I still find his kit underwhelming and clunky. I think Revenant is more suited to solo play anyway considering his 1 makes thralls... that end up being killed as soon as its cast in pubs, and his 3 requires his 1 to use. I might just suck, and if I do I can admit it, but am I the only one who still thinks Revenant should be better than what he is? Are the people who say he's fine right? Do I really just suck?!

Edited by (PSN)ErydisTheLucario
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Rework? no, not in the level of a certain forum user here would want to.

Tweaks and stat changes? definitely yes

i want Danse macabre to adapt and change it's damage type the way Baruuk's serene storm does with it's augment

i want mesmer skin to make danse macabre absorb more damage than without the skin, because mesmer makes you not absorb enough hits

i want Reave to fly like cloudwalker

 

DE will not change Revenant drastically if they'll ever do

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He does not require rework so much as many other frames do, he is perfect for what he is as an unkillable bastard. 

As for his deficiencies, most of them can be covered through the use of the helminth system. Through it there are so many variations of builds that you can make out of him. One key example is the use of Nyx's Mind Control, replacing his 4 in order to create an unintentional synergy which effectively makes one invincible thrall, this also allows your Reave to build up your mesmer skin and one shots the thralls whilst to keep your slave army topped up at the same time. This also feeds his thrall augment, which powers any primary weapons he wields with an additive damage multiplier if used.

If thralls are not your thing try a basic approach and subsume Rhinos Roar. If you have at least over 250% strength and a weapon that can spread viral in a wide radius with a few stacks you can one shot anything with Reave.

 

With this, I do admit that patching him up to be used in a fun, prime state is expensive. But by no means that he needs to be touched with a rework when there are solutions already available for him to make him significantly better than just his basic kit.

Edit: Thst said, his passive is S#&$ and literally does nothing to him most of the time. This needs to be rectified.

Edited by ConsumerJTC
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He's a fine frame. 

Some Qol changes would be nice and as Hopper said a few tweak here and there but otherwise his fine.

Mesmer skin shouldn't have a stationary casting animation imo. That's the number thing I would like to change on him. Maybe Enthrall should be changed so it can be cancelled and it should effect at least 10 enemies.

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My question is why people are so obsessed with his #1 and write him of directly when that skill doesnt do very well among others. It is a weak flarkin skill to begin with, with a single purpose which is CC and some utility around eximus and ancients (if you bother to give your group those benefits since you dont need them yourself one bit). The only other part of his kit that is out of place is his passive and the synergy that thralls have with his 4 i.e spawning overshield orbs.

Ignore those things and he has a wonderful kit. His 2 is probably the strongest defense skill in the game, more so with shield gate added. His 3 gives great mobility, most notably during the channeling of his 4, which is a strong AoE clear skill that can get even stronger with Helminth (if you ditch those S#&$ty thralls of his). A decently high strength build with Roar instead of Enthrall is whack, and if you want a more mobile build with a higher focus on weapon damage and some CC to make your mesmer skin last longer you just use Fire Blast instead of thralls.

Writing him off just because his 1 is useless is as if you'd write off Ember, Vauban, Protea, Wukong, Volt and several other frames that have one gimp skill in their kit. It doesnt matter how immortal they'd make the thralls, I'd still ditch them for a more useful skill. 

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1 minute ago, SneakyErvin said:

Writing him off just because his 1 is useless is as if you'd write off Ember, Vauban, Protea, Wukong, Volt and several other frames that have one gimp skill in their kit. It doesnt matter how immortal they'd make the thralls, I'd still ditch them for a more useful skill. 

His 1 is very important to one shot any level with reave, it's pretty stupid, i hate it and i wish it gets nerfed or cancelled.

also please don't disrespect Protea's temporal anchor ;-; will smith rewind GIF

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4 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

My question is why people are so obsessed with his #1 and write him of directly when that skill doesnt do very well among others. It is a weak flarkin skill to begin with, with a single purpose which is CC and some utility around eximus and ancients (if you bother to give your group those benefits since you dont need them yourself one bit). The only other part of his kit that is out of place is his passive and the synergy that thralls have with his 4 i.e spawning overshield orbs.

Ignore those things and he has a wonderful kit. His 2 is probably the strongest defense skill in the game, more so with shield gate added. His 3 gives great mobility, most notably during the channeling of his 4, which is a strong AoE clear skill that can get even stronger with Helminth (if you ditch those S#&$ty thralls of his). A decently high strength build with Roar instead of Enthrall is whack, and if you want a more mobile build with a higher focus on weapon damage and some CC to make your mesmer skin last longer you just use Fire Blast instead of thralls.

Writing him off just because his 1 is useless is as if you'd write off Ember, Vauban, Protea, Wukong, Volt and several other frames that have one gimp skill in their kit. It doesnt matter how immortal they'd make the thralls, I'd still ditch them for a more useful skill. 

Notice how I never wrote him off because of one ability. I gave my opinion and said his kit was clunky, not that it was bad. I also said that if i just suck with it, I'd accept that. 

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12 minutes ago, (PSN)Hopper_Orouk said:

His 1 is very important to one shot any level with reave, it's pretty stupid, i hate it and i wish it gets nerfed or cancelled.

also please don't disrespect Protea's temporal anchor ;-; will smith rewind GIF

I've only ever bothered with reave when it worked on Liches, just to speed things up. I have a hard time finding any place at all now where it is worth stopping and using enthrall on some targets and hope they allign for a reave wipe. The combo doesnt even work on Nox units and everything else it just mince meat through regular means.

I wouldnt mind temporal anchor... in real life. :P

11 minutes ago, (PSN)ErydisTheLucario said:

Notice how I never wrote him off because of one ability. I gave my opinion and said his kit was clunky, not that it was bad. I also said that if i just suck with it, I'd accept that. 

I think my reply sounded more angry than it was intended to be. Sorry if that was the case.

I'd just suggest trying him without his thralls, or if you want them around just use them when you badly need CC. The rest of the kit works really well pretty much anywhere. I think the only two places where I havent enjoyed Rev is in disruption and excav, since he doesnt have CC or protection for excavators and in disruption his defenses get dispelled whenever he closes in on a demo.

Edited by SneakyErvin
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3 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

I've only ever bothered with reave when it worked on Liches, just to speed things up. I have a hard time finding any place at all now where it is worth stopping and using enthrall on some targets and hope they allign for a reave wipe. The combo doesnt even work on Nox units and everything else it just mince meat through regular means.

I wouldnt mind temporal anchor... in real life. :P

I think my reply sounded more angry than it was intended to be. Sorry if that was the case.

I'd just suggest trying him without his thralls, or if you want them around just use them when you badly need CC. The rest of the kit works really well pretty much anywhere. I think the only two places where I havent enjoyed Rev is in disruption and excav, since he doesnt have CC or protection for excavators and in disruption his defenses get dispelled whenever he closes in on a demo.

You're good, thanks for being civil. Anyway I cant believe Revenant and helminth didn't click fir me until now. I might end up switching stuff around and trying out some helminth combos. Only thing I wonder is do you really need thralls to one shot enemies with reave? Those two abilities alone don't sound like should be removed if that's the synergy.

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1 hour ago, SneakyErvin said:

My question is why people are so obsessed with his #1 and write him of directly when that skill doesnt do very well among others. It is a weak flarkin skill to begin with, with a single purpose which is CC and some utility around eximus and ancients (if you bother to give your group those benefits since you dont need them yourself one bit). The only other part of his kit that is out of place is his passive and the synergy that thralls have with his 4 i.e spawning overshield orbs.

Ignore those things and he has a wonderful kit. His 2 is probably the strongest defense skill in the game, more so with shield gate added. His 3 gives great mobility, most notably during the channeling of his 4, which is a strong AoE clear skill that can get even stronger with Helminth (if you ditch those S#&$ty thralls of his). A decently high strength build with Roar instead of Enthrall is whack, and if you want a more mobile build with a higher focus on weapon damage and some CC to make your mesmer skin last longer you just use Fire Blast instead of thralls.

Writing him off just because his 1 is useless is as if you'd write off Ember, Vauban, Protea, Wukong, Volt and several other frames that have one gimp skill in their kit. It doesnt matter how immortal they'd make the thralls, I'd still ditch them for a more useful skill. 

Not obsessed but he could really be a cool WarLord type of frame.

And also I hate warframes that rely on damage instead of CC.

Edited by JackHargreav
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Vampirism never made much sense for a Sentient, Eidolon-inspired Warframe, we've never encountered Sentients that display the capability to enthrall enemies or even take control of Amalgams, that's why I'm inclined to believe that Revenant can be made better by utilizing more lore-friendly Sentient elements.

His Shockwave passive is honestly worthless, but his immunity to magnetic procs is great. To enhance him further, Adaptation needs to be added, as every other Sentient has this natural ability. Of course, this would need to be balanced for the sake of gameplay. Sentient adaptation is an unspoken rule, why is Revenant ignored in this regard? In addition, I believe Revenant should be made to be extra effective against his own kind.

Enthrall doesn't have the same benefits as Mind Control does, making it far less effective as an ability. I'd suggest to replace it entirely with a Sentient energy beam that damages enemies in the same way that Danse Macabre does, unless DE can make adjustments to the enemies we take control of. Perhaps through some miracle, Enthrall can be used to "Amalgamate" enemies. "Amalgamated" enemies get a boost to defensive & offensive capabilities & unique armored "Sentient shells" similar to Amalgams, scaling in level of course. This makes enemies-made-allies more effective in combat & it provides interesting implications to future lore pertaining to Amalgams as a whole.

Mesmer Skin is sort of reliable already, so I'm not entirely certain what should be done. Hypothetically, it could be changed to be duration based like Kinetic Plating is. Once the duration expires, the shockwave from the passive could apply to provide you decent CC & some breathing room.

Reave is an ugly ability to look at. A giant smoke cloud isn't impressive visually, that's why Revenant should do as the Vomvalysts do by changing into an energy form whilst charging at the enemy. Perhaps some flat damage & stunning/ragdolling could also be added in addition to the lifesteal to provide some "impact" to the ability.

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1 hour ago, (PSN)ErydisTheLucario said:

You're good, thanks for being civil. Anyway I cant believe Revenant and helminth didn't click fir me until now. I might end up switching stuff around and trying out some helminth combos. Only thing I wonder is do you really need thralls to one shot enemies with reave? Those two abilities alone don't sound like should be removed if that's the synergy.

Just because the synergy exists doesn’t mean it’s good. Ervin already explained this in his last response but “one shot any level with reave” only sounds good in theory, in practice it doesn’t always work very well. It’s still far more efficient to just kill things with your melee than to try and set up that synergy.

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he's pretty nice to use but wish his ballerina dance was more viable in higher level content

what would be more absurd than a spinning ballerina demolishing high level enemies while also looking fabulous 

 53920-299x401-Primaballerina.jpg

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Nope. He's perfect between being a great tank and his "eff everything in this general direction" lasers. 

People's issues with Revenant are more based around his theme or whatever, which doesn't matter, because looks and role playing don't actually matter in missions. 

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A complete rework, I don't think so. Some QoL and touch-ups, definitely.

My biggest problem with him is is 1, even more now with Trall Pact: the fact that teammates wipe the thralls out all the time. You can't get a good crowd control, and now with the augment you can't get a good bonus damage because the thralls never live more than 2 seconds. Personally, I'd make his trhalls immune to damage from the teammates, but to have that damage stored and dealt all at once once the ability duration wears off for that particular thrall (also this avoids trolling in missions like Exterminate).

Plus I'd add a QoL for an ability to deactivate tha ability for all the thralls at once by holding down the ability key. This way you can refresh your thralls to suit the situation, if needed be.

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If revenant needs a rework then over 80% of the frames we have need one more.

But no, he really doesn't. Not only being one of, if not the, strongest tank in the game while still having damage to clear rooms and has a self-heal that can one-shot if needed. His Thralls are the only thing in his kit with issues but they only exist if you're playing a non-endless with other people. The damaging pillars they make on death makes the ability relevant anywhere enemies are going to constantly bein the same area.

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7 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

I've only ever bothered with reave when it worked on Liches, just to speed things up. I have a hard time finding any place at all now where it is worth stopping and using enthrall on some targets and hope they allign for a reave wipe. The combo doesnt even work on Nox units and everything else it just mince meat through regular means.

I'm guessing you probably have no interest in long, looong endurance missions because then Thrall and Reave come into their own. At max lvl 9999, enemies that are thralled will only take a couple of reaves to kill while mesmer skin makes you invulnerable. Simply put, he only becomes godlike in deep water. Thralling enemies at high level also allows your mesmer skin to work better as less enemies will be shooting at you and you'll be gaining mesmer skin as the thralled ones create even more thralls. He's not a frame for blowing through low level run of the mill missions, he excels at endgame instead.

Edited by -CdG-Zilchy
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Short answer? Nope.

I wouldn't mind it if the bulk of skins in the workshop got approved and implemented immediately but Revenent, in and of itself, is fine.

That said, every frame isn't a fit for every player...

I, for example, really want to like Harrow and feel like his kit is a complete fit for my playstyle— That has yet to convey into enjoying playing as Harrow though.

 

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As a side note, this is why I think there are legitimately detrimental consequences to the actions of that one user who must not be named, because their obsessive and comically strident crusade against Revenant is so unreasonable in and of itself that it's making people push back against criticizing the frame. It's difficult to have a serious discussion about Revenant, let alone make a measured criticism of him, without being lumped together with someone whose vendetta against the frame has gone above and beyond all that is sensible. Even the mere mention of the frame is now enough for everyone who's been on the forums for even a little while to have that user in mind, like some kind of specter threatening to jump out at any moment and turn the discussion into another joke.

Personally, I'm of the opinion that Revenant could benefit from a rework, not because he's weak (he's actually quite strong), but because his kit lacks thematic and gameplay coherence: in terms of gameplay, he's a minion-mancer who doesn't actually use his minions other than to draw aggro and maybe emergency heal on some occasions, and otherwise is mainly a tanky nuker. His kit gels somewhat better now because his 3 was made to grant extra Mesmer Skin charges, but there's still little relation between his 1-2-3 and his 4. On a thematic and identity level, we can all rationalize based on his blatantly half-baked quest (if going to a waypoint three times, listening to some voice lines, and fighting a specter can even truly be called a quest), but it's obvious that Revenant was intended to be a vampire frame until halfway through development, whereupon the developers fell in love with his spin-to-win 4 and decided to make him part-Eidolon frame as well. The two halves of his identity and kit can still be seen to this day, and they continue to be at odds with one another.

With that in mind, not only do I believe Revenant could use a rework, I'd even go as far as to say that in terms of coherent, artistically sound identity and gameplay, he's actually one of the worst-designed warframes out there, along with Khora, his predecessor and a thematic mess and a half herself. However, when it comes to rework priority, I also think there are many more frames who could benefit from a rework more than Revenant: the frame may suffer from poor design, but at least is balanced to do well in the current metagame, and so can be enjoyed despite his issues. Meanwhile, frames like Hydroid, Nyx, and Zephyr not only suffer from major design problems, they also just suck at the moment. On the flipside, there's also the issue of certain frames who are successful but also fairly unhealthy, like Saryn and Mesa, and who could use some changes to make them more bearable in groups, but that's a whole other can of worms.

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Enthrall is a bad version of Chaos. Imagine if Chaos could only affect seven enemies at a time.

Mesmer Skin is good. It is a bit uninspired but is one of the better general tanking abilities in the game and the best tanking ability in some niche situations.

Reave is a meme. Its doesn't cover enough distance to be a generally useful movement ability and the "infinite scaling damage" is only relevant in... honestly it isn't ever relevant. If you need that kind of damage you are doing content faaaaaaar outside the scope of balance.

Danse Macabre is just a "press 4 to win" nuke that has no gameplay synergy with the rest of his kit along with being problematic design through and through. Revanant was a frame that came out right on the heels of Ember's World on Fire nerf, DE making another passive AoE damage ability was dumb then and it is still dumb now.

 

Revenant works, that doesn't make him a well designed frame. A Warframe being statistically good does NOT mean they don't need a rework. All a Warframe needs to be "good" is to not die, do damage, or preferably both. Our standards for a good Warframe should be higher than the bare minimum. We should expect Warframes to have cohesive kits that create unique gameplay. Ya know, gameplay, the thing you want to be good in a... uh... game. But hey, at least Revenant's kit design isn't as garbage as Chroma's (another "they work" frame with terrible design).

If you like Revenant then... maybe try out an Ironclad Rhino? Or Nezha. Possible Nidus. Or maybe even Baruuk. Revenant can get the job done and I will admit that his build requirement to be a decent tank is exceptionally low. But that is all Revenant really is... your stepping-stone tank. Start the game off with Rhino until base Iron Skin falls off, get Revenant to instantly make tanking go up for mid game, then once you have the ability to make proper builds move on to a better frame. There are tons of far more versatile tanks in the game and the other things Revenant offers just don't matter.

 

Edit: I don't think Revenant needs any of his abilities dumpstered, but he also needs more than tweaks. He needs a common thread to tie his abilities together into a fulfilling kit. Bigger numbers and QoL won't make Revenant a well designed frame. One of the ideas I've thrown around is treating Thralls like Saryn's Spores. Have his kit be centered around creating, spreading, and benefiting from Thralls like Saryn's kit is all about spreading and boosting Spores. This would require removing the cap on Thralls, but for some reason DE seems really hesitant to do that despite there being a plethora of CC frames that lock down entire tiles/maps.

Edited by DrBorris
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No, I wouldn't say a full rework is in order. His kit just doesn't flow together very well (as it was originally supposed to be one thing, then morphed into something else) and some of his abilities just aren't very effective (Enthrall is the main issue). You would think as a Warframe designed around killing his minions for benefits that he'd receive better benefits for killing them. It would be really nice if Enthrall reduced enemy defenses, for example, so killing them would be faster with Danse Macabre.

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