DawnoftheWhiteFury Posted February 6, 2021 Share Posted February 6, 2021 Now that Warner Bros. have patented the Nemesis System found in their Shadows of Middle Earth games, will this affect Warframe in any way related to the Kuva Lich and upcoming Queenpin systems? I am no lawyer, but I had concerns upon hearing this news considering the Nemesis system was direct inspiration to the Lich system in Warframe, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Venarge Posted February 6, 2021 Share Posted February 6, 2021 Patenting a certain system is one thing. Mainly the ways it works. No lawyer either but you can’t patent gameplay. You can patent ideas. The code how the nemesis system works. But never the mechanic. Stuff like that would mean no game ever can have a nemesis system, which is not going to happen..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miser_able Posted February 6, 2021 Share Posted February 6, 2021 While the language in the application is fairly obtuse - as most patent claims tend to be - the “short” version is that the patent covers a system featuring procedurally-generated NPCs that exist in a hierarchy and interact with and will remember the actions of players, have their appearance/behavior altered by players, and whose place in that hierarchy can change and affect the position of other NPCs in said hierarchy (and yes, that’s the simplified version). There is no hierarchy with liches, liches do not remember player actions, our actions do not change lich behavior or appearance, or their position in a nonexistent hierarchy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Myscho Posted February 6, 2021 Share Posted February 6, 2021 Dont worry, DE figure something out like Ubisoft with their Mercenaries system Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JackHargreav Posted February 6, 2021 Share Posted February 6, 2021 Probably it will effect warframe in some way. Companies will always be happy to sue whoever they can. (Tho warframe's Nemesis system is kinda different. Because we don't have the entire hierarchy system.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nslay Posted February 6, 2021 Share Posted February 6, 2021 Good. Let's hope it gets reworked to something a little more fun and interesting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loza03 Posted February 6, 2021 Share Posted February 6, 2021 The patent isn't new, AFAIK it was a thing since before the Lich system was implemented. The Trademark is new, and it's unlikely to be an issue either since, as people have pointed out, the two systems are dramatically different. Think of it this way: How to Train Your Dragon has a trademark on the names 'Toothless' 'Fishlegs' 'Hiccup Horrendous Haddock the Third' (shame on the movie for not stating that full name more often), they don't have a trademark on 'Dragons' or 'riding a dragon'. In the same fashion, WB has a trademark on a system where enemies will note the actions of the player and then respond to them in later encounters in a procedurally generated fashion. They do not, however, have a trademark on procedurally generated enemies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(XBOX)C11H22O11 Posted February 6, 2021 Share Posted February 6, 2021 No, if they managed to trademark the concept of nemesis then yeah but it's just like trying to trademark the word 'react' it ain't happening ever Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpicyDinosaur Posted February 6, 2021 Share Posted February 6, 2021 32 minutes ago, nslay said: Good. Let's hope it gets reworked to something a little more fun and interesting. no one is forcing you to experience that content, I think every one of us has content we just don't like. But other people might like it a lot, and we can all be kind souls and not expect the game to be tailored specifically to our wants. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Divious Posted February 6, 2021 Share Posted February 6, 2021 Scumbags, They give Murkrays and Karkina a bad name Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tesseract7777 Posted February 6, 2021 Share Posted February 6, 2021 This does not affect us at all! Haha! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nslay Posted February 6, 2021 Share Posted February 6, 2021 11 minutes ago, SpicyDinosaur said: no one is forcing you to experience that content, I think every one of us has content we just don't like. But other people might like it a lot, and we can all be kind souls and not expect the game to be tailored specifically to our wants. Running the original Star Chart missions again with the optional added objective to collect murmurs is barely content. I mean, I don't like this... but objectively, this is barely added/new content. What is actually new and cool about the system are the Liches themselves. The little remarks they make, their appearance, the cut scenes, the weapons. That's actually new content. But the majority of our time is spent doing the old Star Chart missions again where we have to stab Thralls. That's objectively not really content. By contrast... for example... Deimos. Now Deimos has some of the same mechanics as other open worlds. But it's an entirely new open world with new enemies, new types of bounties, new kinds of conservation and fishing, different mechanics for mining, different characters and stories for them. And when we play Deimos, we spend 100% of our time in this new environment. So you can see, just by example, spending 99% of our time collecting Murmurs in old Star Chart missions is not content. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JackHargreav Posted February 6, 2021 Share Posted February 6, 2021 3 minutes ago, nslay said: Running the original Star Chart missions again with the optional added objective to collect murmurs is barely content. I mean, I don't like this... but objectively, this is barely added/new content. What is actually new and cool about the system are the Liches themselves. The little remarks they make, their appearance, the cut scenes, the weapons. That's actually new content. But the majority of our time is spent doing the old Star Chart missions again where we have to stab Thralls. That's objectively not really content. By contrast... for example... Deimos. Now Deimos has some of the same mechanics as other open worlds. But it's an entirely new open world with new enemies, new types of bounties, new kinds of conservation and fishing, different mechanics for mining, different characters and stories for them. And when we play Deimos, we spend 100% of our time in this new environment. So you can see, just by example, spending 99% of our time collecting Murmurs in old Star Chart missions is not content. Well yeah the way liches were implemented first was a bit bare bone. But don't forget De's promise. Railjack and the Liches will be tied together soon (tm). Which should bring some variety to the system. Maybe there will be some additional changes also. I hope they can improve them in any case. For me the liches are pretty dry content. Haven't done a single one since I got the weapons I wanted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nslay Posted February 6, 2021 Share Posted February 6, 2021 Just now, JackHargreav said: But don't forget De's promise. Railjack and the Liches will be tied together soon (tm). Which should bring some variety to the system. Maybe there will be some additional changes also. Woo! I'm all for that! Just now, JackHargreav said: I hope they can improve them in any case. For me the liches are pretty dry content. Haven't done a single one since I got the weapons I wanted. What I normally do is get the Lich... and then a few weeks later, I get annoyed from seeing/hearing the Lich when I login, that I just rush through it! Haha. I guess I only have one more Lich weapon to go (I have a Twin Stubba lich currently). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JackHargreav Posted February 6, 2021 Share Posted February 6, 2021 1 minute ago, nslay said: Woo! I'm all for that! What I normally do is get the Lich... and then a few weeks later, I get annoyed from seeing/hearing the Lich when I login, that I just rush through it! Haha. I guess I only have one more Lich weapon to go (I have a Twin Stubba lich currently). I can relate. Tho I just forced my self through all of them. I just always wanted to get rid of them as fast as possible. But after like the 5th or 6th mission I kinda wanted to sit in the corner and do nothing instead. It's incredible how monotonous the system is. And that's when I already have all the murmur mods for the parazon. Which they should really rework, because doing those relic runs is an other boring activity that just makes me feel like I'm 40 times older. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)SifuPurpleWolf Posted February 6, 2021 Share Posted February 6, 2021 #*!% patents are straight criminal intellectual property is bull S#&$ all ideas where ment to be free Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xcrimsonlegendx Posted February 6, 2021 Share Posted February 6, 2021 Weird, imagine if the first FPS patented the formula. :B Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
o0Despair0o Posted February 6, 2021 Share Posted February 6, 2021 I mean... the nemesis system and the lich system are like night and day. The nemesis system allows a small story. A foe who keeps returning from the dead, with scars to show. Dialogue that fits. Behaviour that fits. The lich system is literally just "lel git gud I got godmode and I RNG'd your mum ayyy lmfaoooooo". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loza03 Posted February 6, 2021 Share Posted February 6, 2021 8 minutes ago, (PSN)Crimmson_knight said: #*!% patents are straight criminal intellectual property is bull S#&$ all ideas where ment to be free It's complicated. On the one hand, you're absolutely right, at least in an ideal world - which is also why concepts like fair use exist.. On the other, you can't feed yourself on love of the craft. If you want to support yourself on ideas, writing and concepts, you need a system that supports that. You can't reasonably feed yourself off the amount of money you can make selling to your immediate circle, especially if everyone you sell it to could also sell it. Which is where all that comes in - IPs, patents, trademarks, they exist to allow creative people to at least have some potential means of supporting themselves off just their creativity. That's not to say that the systems are perfect, are unexploitable or haven't been twisted and corrupted by greed like nearly every other well-intentioned system that exists - because they 100% have. Especially copyright, thanks to the Disney corporation's desire to keep Mickey Mouse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nslay Posted February 6, 2021 Share Posted February 6, 2021 16 minutes ago, xcrimsonlegendx said: Weird, imagine if the first FPS patented the formula. :B You can't patent a formula. I mean... there are big companies that get away with patenting things that are not technically patentable, but technically... you can't patent a math formula or constant or anything like that, But as I was saying... big companies like Google somehow patent things like Batch Normalization or Drop Out. These are mechanisms used in training neural networks... they're basically math. You theoretically shouldn't be able to patent such things, but they got away with it. https://patents.google.com/patent/US10417562B2/en https://patents.google.com/patent/US9406017B2/en Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)robotwars7 Posted February 6, 2021 Share Posted February 6, 2021 at least patents eventually expire. either way, I'm looking forward to Corpus Liches! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(XBOX)C11H22O11 Posted February 6, 2021 Share Posted February 6, 2021 1 hour ago, (PSN)Crimmson_knight said: #*!% patents are straight criminal intellectual property is bull S#&$ all ideas where ment to be free Tell that to Disney Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loza03 Posted February 6, 2021 Share Posted February 6, 2021 1 minute ago, (XBOX)C11H22O11 said: Tell that to Disney Disney's story is ironically pretty Disney villain. Built on the backs of the public domain, a system designed so that ideas are free whilst still enabling creators to make a fair living off their ideas, then they get powerful and proceed to butcher it once it no longer serves their purposes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpicyDinosaur Posted February 7, 2021 Share Posted February 7, 2021 3 hours ago, nslay said: Running the original Star Chart missions again with the optional added objective to collect murmurs is barely content. I mean, I don't like this... but objectively, this is barely added/new content. What is actually new and cool about the system are the Liches themselves. The little remarks they make, their appearance, the cut scenes, the weapons. That's actually new content. But the majority of our time is spent doing the old Star Chart missions again where we have to stab Thralls. That's objectively not really content. By contrast... for example... Deimos. Now Deimos has some of the same mechanics as other open worlds. But it's an entirely new open world with new enemies, new types of bounties, new kinds of conservation and fishing, different mechanics for mining, different characters and stories for them. And when we play Deimos, we spend 100% of our time in this new environment. So you can see, just by example, spending 99% of our time collecting Murmurs in old Star Chart missions is not content. I enjoy liches as they are. I get to run through old content and fight a sometimes frustrating enemy (though at rank 5 they should be tougher) they could add more, and I agree with you that the liches themselves, especially when they have a phobia, are the shining stars of the whole thing. But I still see it as content, it's abnegative content, so some people don't want that, and that is okay. But other people enjoy it, so wanting it overhauled completely... well what would you like to see changed? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)MrHide-Patten Posted February 7, 2021 Share Posted February 7, 2021 Warner Bros were recently successful to get a patent of their famous Nemesis System from their Shadow of Mordor games. Now it’s no secret that the Kuva Lichs and the Briefcase wielding Corpus enemies are inspired by such a system. Can WB file a cease and desist or force DE to strip the feature from Warframe now, or is the system in Warframe legally different enough to skirt by? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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