It took Steel Path for people to notice I was right about Adaptation

[(XBOX)GodMasterTP]

I posted almost 2 years ago a feedback about Adaptation, stating that the mod was actually poorly designed and should be buffed. People bashed me without actually fully realizing the problems (yes, there is more than 1) with the mod, now almost 2 years later people are complaining about being 1 shotted by acolytes...guess what, the problem is exactly this mod. 

First, let me explain why it is trash and is poorly designed: 

1) Adaptation only stacks with the highest damage of the weapon. That is not a problem when a weapon has only 1 damage type, that starts becoming a BIG problem when the weapon has more than 1 (specially 3). If a weapon has 30/50/100 IPS (respectively), you'll reduce the total damage from 180 to 90 (30/50/10), that's 50% damage reduced instead of 90%, that is not a big problem if you're not fighting 1 enemy right...? Right? Let's go to the next point...

2) Enemy damage distribution sucks. Most enemies have a predominant damage type. Grineer lean towards puncture/impact, you'll only find slash on Butchers and anything with a Kohm in his hands, almost nothing else uses a weapon with predominant slash. It feels like Corpus only have Puncture/Blast/Electricity but some enemies do have Impact damage. Infested only have Impact and anything derivative from Toxin (along with Toxin itself). The units that carry those damage types that you oftenly don't see in their respective factions are normally elite units, that means they probably hit harder. 

That's why it's easier to get killed by a Bombard than anything else, as far as I know he's the only grineer that can cause Blast damage and not only that, in 1 single hit, that means you'll probably die in his hands as soon as his damage become high enough. Also, that's probably why you're dying to acolytes in SP, the highest damaging ones (Mania/Misery and Violence) are only that powerful because their predominant damage is slash or something else that you'll probably not encounter that much. 

3) It doesn't stack nearly as fast as it should. 10% p/hit is way too low.

4) The last point, and actually the best one. Adaptation is contradictory to the core gameplay: being mobile. If DE wants you to jump around like a monkey, why even implement something like that? You either remove it or make it work properly.

[(PSN)platinumceiling]

I don't think it needs to be buffed at all. It's meant to provide damage resistance in longer endurance missions, and it isnt mandatory. That's how it should remain IMO. It's in a perfect spot.

[bubbabenali]

Ok, cool. You took adaption to a mission full of enemies that can oneshot you. 

That leaves the question why did you not cheese good enough to not get hit at all. I mean, thats what steelwave is all about anyways. 

[GrayArchon]

On 2021-02-06 at 6:04 PM, (XBOX)GodMasterTP said:

Grineer lean towards puncture/impact, you'll only find slash on Butchers and anything with a Kohm in his hands, almost nothing else uses a weapon with predominant slash.

Elite Lancers? The most common enemy type above level 15? They use the Hind which is 60% Slash. Whenever I play a Grineer mission without a status-immune frame I am basically always suffering Slash procs.

[(XBOX)TheWayOfWisdom]

1 hour ago, GrayArchon said:

Elite Lancers? The most common enemy type above level 15? They use the Hind which is 60% Slash. Whenever I play a Grineer mission without a status-immune frame I am basically always suffering Slash procs.

Actually their Hind (and most Hinds wielded by enemies) are 37.5% Impact, 18.75% Puncture, and 37.5% Slash (and yes that doesn't add up to 100%, thank quantization for that)

[PhiThagRaid]

On 2021-02-07 at 4:04 AM, (XBOX)GodMasterTP said:

3) It doesn't stack nearly as fast as it should. 10% p/hit is way too low.

I think this is made up by the 20s duration it has. as long as you get hit by a specific damage type atleast once every 20s that DR will stay active.

The 1 damage type always felt like a bug to me, would've been better if instead of taking the highest damage on a weapon and adding to the DR against that, it instead did the exact same, but only after the other DR is accounted for.

Using your 30/50/100 damage as an example: Currently it would all go to the 3rd damage type as you mention.

I would think the following would be a better system:

Spoiler

0 hits: 30/50/100 resistances: 0/0/0
1:   30/50/90   0/0/1
2:   30/50/80    0/0/2
3:   30/50/70    0/0/3
4:   30/50/60    0/0/4
5:   30/50/50    0/0/5
6:   30/45/50    0/1/5 (making it prefer the damage type you have the least resistance against so far)
7:   30/45/40    0/1/6
8:   30/40/40    0/2/6
9:   30/35/40    0/3/6
10: 30/35/30    0/3/7
11: 30/30/30    0/4/7
12: 27/30/30    1/4/7
13: 27/25/30    1/5/7
14: 27/25/20    1/5/8
15: 24/25/20    2/5/8
16: 24/20/20    2/6/8
17: 21/20/20    3/6/8
18: 18/20/20    4/6/8
19: 18/15/20    4/7/8
19: 18/15/10    4/7/9
20: 15/15/10    5/7/9
21: 12/15/10    6/7/9
22: 12/10/10    6/8/9
23:   9/10/10    7/8/9
24:     9/5/10    7/9/9

At this point it could constantly reproc the 3rd damage type until one of the others expire making them the highest damage type again.

With this applied to all enemies with their slightly varying damage distributions, I believe it would be able to refresh those resistances the above example would perhaps let expire.

[GrayArchon]

1 hour ago, (XBOX)TheWayOfWisdom said:

Actually their Hind (and most Hinds wielded by enemies) are 37.5% Impact, 18.75% Puncture, and 37.5% Slash (and yes that doesn't add up to 100%, thank quantization for that)

Do you have a source for this? I can't see this information anywhere after a quick google.

[(XBOX)Calliber]

Actually that's just evidence to leave Adaptation as it, otherwise it will be OP'd.  Right now it's nice to have (especially since there's no decent reason to rank it) but not a necessity. 

[(XBOX)TheWayOfWisdom]

11 minutes ago, GrayArchon said:

Do you have a source for this? I can't see this information anywhere after a quick google.

Lots of personal testing (I have doc for most Grineer damage. Here it is if you wanna look.). Also alternative ways of getting the info, but that would break forum rules to post it here.

Unfortunately, both essentially boil down to me saying that I am the source, so take it for what you want.

[(XBOX)GodMasterTP]

5 hours ago, bubbabenali said:

Ok, cool. You took adaption to a mission full of enemies that can oneshot you. 

That leaves the question why did you not cheese good enough to not get hit at all. I mean, thats what steelwave is all about anyways. 

I don't use DR tanks, they're very bad unless they have some mechanic that makes them near invincible, like Nidus or Hildryn. 

I am Rhino Master Race.

[(XBOX)GodMasterTP]

5 hours ago, GrayArchon said:

Elite Lancers? The most common enemy type above level 15? They use the Hind which is 60% Slash. Whenever I play a Grineer mission without a status-immune frame I am basically always suffering Slash procs.

No, you are straight up lying. You can literally just go to the simulacrum and spawn them to test, the only stacks I get come from impact damage.

[GrayArchon]

5 hours ago, (XBOX)TheWayOfWisdom said:

Lots of personal testing (I have doc for most Grineer damage. Here it is if you wanna look.). Also alternative ways of getting the info, but that would break forum rules to post it here.

Unfortunately, both essentially boil down to me saying that I am the source, so take it for what you want.

Thanks for linking your work. I may use it for a damage calculator spreadsheet I'm working on (which may or may not see completion). If I publish it, I'll be sure to credit your work.

[GrayArchon]

16 hours ago, (XBOX)GodMasterTP said:

No, you are straight up lying. You can literally just go to the simulacrum and spawn them to test, the only stacks I get come from impact damage.

Okay, well, "lying" is a weird accusation to level at me. I'm telling you that 1) I suffer frequent Slash procs from Grineer Elite Lancers, and 2) if you go to the wiki page for the Hind, you'll see that it's majority Slash damage. Now, apparently, the Hind that Elite Lancers use has a different damage distribution, but that doesn't make me a liar – at best it makes me very understandably misinformed. I shouldn't need to hop into the Simulacrum every time I want to make a comment.

[(NSW)Gamma83]

i don't see how you are "right" , i mean adaptation is pretty damn strong currently , maybe a bit too strong actually considering how it is almost mandatory on some frame.
i also fail to see how it contradict warframe's gameplay , you might move around a lot but you can still get hit here and there from bullets so.....i don't understand your post at all man xD

[OmegaVoid]

22 hours ago, (XBOX)GodMasterTP said:

You can literally just go to the simulacrum and spawn them to test, the only stacks I get come from impact damage.

You sure those weren't Arid Elite Lancers? Their Hinds do majority Impact, while the regular Elite Lancers' Hinds deal majority Slash.

(And Arid and Frontier Heavy Gunners' Gorgons deal majority Slash, while regular and Drekar Heavy Gunners' Gorgons deal majority Impact. Seems Grineer ammo isn't homogenous.)

[(XBOX)GodMasterTP]

5 hours ago, OmegaVoid said:

You sure those weren't Arid Elite Lancers? Their Hinds do majority Impact, while the regular Elite Lancers' Hinds deal majority Slash.

(And Arid and Frontier Heavy Gunners' Gorgons deal majority Slash, while regular and Drekar Heavy Gunners' Gorgons deal majority Impact. Seems Grineer ammo isn't homogenous.)

No, Elite Lancers.

[Scar.brother.help.me]

Why wouldn't Adaptation just build up on each IPS/element at the same time without picking the strongest? 

[Yasha-7HS]

I mean, you're only right if you don't put in the effort or time to understand how to optimize it, or expect it to work in true endurance. All it takes is a little ingenuity. 

Blocking attacks with a melee weapon builds resistance, being temporarily invulnerable (rolling guard, a dashing ability, shield gate) also still allows stacks to be built. Doubling up on protections that are the most lethal for a given enemy, say Toxin in infested missions, allows you to be completely invulnerable to their attacks in short order, or permanently if you absolutely min-max it for frames that need this much protection against certain elements like Gauss.

Basic steel path isn't enough to break through a properly utilized adaptation build. If these people are getting one shot, they're either using a frame that doesn't work well with Adaptation in the first place or they're quite literally not doing it right. 

[Xzorn]

Adaptation was one of the most dumb broken mods they ever added to this game that served no purpose other than to further solidify the eHP + DPS meta. You're not supposed to occasionally get hit by a damage type with that mod. You're supposed to purposely soak up damage so your sustain can keep up.

Burst damage is what kills in this game. Always has. Take hits on purpose. Face Tank. No problems.
If you're trying to put it on a frame that doesn't already have 40k+ minimum eHP then that's your fault.

I did Solo endurance runs for years in this game. The actual big reveal here is majority of frames in recent years suck at it.
Outside stuff like Nidus older frames have remained the better scaling because they were made with a design purpose first not a theme first.

[Loza03]

Mods as powerful as Adaptation should have problems. They should have limiters, weaknesses and restrictions. Adaptation provides an insanely powerful upside - 90% damage resistance on top of abilities and armour. So naturally, it needs to have a ton of drawbacks and weaknesses to compensate.

 

2 hours ago, Xzorn said:

Outside stuff like Nidus older frames have remained the better scaling because they were made with a design purpose first not a theme first.

Also, made with the idea that energy was the main limiting factor of abilities. Which... let's be honest with ourselves, energy hasn't been a major limiting factor in years.

[(XBOX)TheWayOfWisdom]

People keep saying "Adaptation is so powerful! 90% damage resistance." Guess they never read the wiki page and realized that it's at best 67.5% damage resistance on health, usually much less due to enemy damage distribution. So you're only getting 3x your health ehp in optimal conditions.

[(NSW)Gamma83]

Il y a 1 heure, (XBOX)TheWayOfWisdom a dit :

People keep saying "Adaptation is so powerful! 90% damage resistance." Guess they never read the wiki page and realized that it's at best 67.5% damage resistance on health, usually much less due to enemy damage distribution. So you're only getting 3x your health ehp in optimal conditions.

and so ?  it's still very very strong in game.
i really can see plain as day the difference with and without, almost a bit too strong as i said earlier (in my opinion) and i didn't talk about the %.
so yea....what does the wiki even have to do with that ? 
it's very strong in game , period.

[(XBOX)TheWayOfWisdom]

26 minutes ago, (NSW)Gamma83 said:

and so ?  it's still very very strong in game.
i really can see plain as day the difference with and without, almost a bit too strong as i said earlier (in my opinion) and i didn't talk about the %.
so yea....what does the wiki even have to do with that ? 
it's very strong in game , period.

I'm pointing out that saying its 90% damage resistance is an incorrect statement in most scenarios, and shouldn't be used as a talking point, given that most ehp comes from health, not shields for most warframes. See here:

2 hours ago, Loza03 said:

Adaptation provides an insanely powerful upside - 90% damage resistance

Wiki was mentioned because the card text does not truly give an accurate description of its effects. That is all.

[(XBOX)GodMasterTP]

22 minutes ago, (NSW)Gamma83 said:

and so ?  it's still very very strong in game.
i really can see plain as day the difference with and without, almost a bit too strong as i said earlier (in my opinion) and i didn't talk about the %.
so yea....what does the wiki even have to do with that ? 
it's very strong in game , period.

Because you DON'T know that the difference between 67,5% DR and 90% is very high, you don't know anything. A Warframe with 1000 health and 75% damage reduction has 4000 EHP. A Warframe with the same health and 90% damage reduction has literally 10k EHP. 

That's why I keep telling people that DR tanks are trash, you either go invincible/invisible or you just use Rhino. Because Adaptation doesn't stack properly. 

The title of highest EHP in the game, not counting things that can become fulltime invincible like Revenant, Valkyr and Hildryn, is held by Nidus (he can become invincible too, he is just not 100% consistent with it as they do). He can reach 1 million EHP as long as Adaptation doesn't #*!% him up, Rhino can reach true 1 million HP with no problem. That's why I keep arguing that Adaptation should be buffed.

[Tiltskillet]

On 2021-02-06 at 6:04 PM, (XBOX)GodMasterTP said:

I posted almost 2 years ago a feedback about Adaptation, stating that the mod was actually poorly designed and should be buffed.

(Xbox)GiantBladderXxX was the first one to ever think of this and he's going to sue your ass.