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It took Steel Path for people to notice I was right about Adaptation


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I think your comparing the mod to something like how straight armor works. It not suppose to work like that. If your looking for anything that can bypass being hit, use rolling guard.

Also getting one shot should still be in the game. But having shield gating is welcomed also to give fragile frames a fighting chance.

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Il y a 3 heures, (XBOX)GodMasterTP a dit :

Because you DON'T know that the difference between 67,5% DR and 90% is very high, you don't know anything. A Warframe with 1000 health and 75% damage reduction has 4000 EHP. A Warframe with the same health and 90% damage reduction has literally 10k EHP. 

That's why I keep telling people that DR tanks are trash, you either go invincible/invisible or you just use Rhino. Because Adaptation doesn't stack properly. 

The title of highest EHP in the game, not counting things that can become fulltime invincible like Revenant, Valkyr and Hildryn, is held by Nidus (he can become invincible too, he is just not 100% consistent with it as they do). He can reach 1 million EHP as long as Adaptation doesn't #*!% him up, Rhino can reach true 1 million HP with no problem. That's why I keep arguing that Adaptation should be buffed.

you don't make any sense man xD why telling this as a reply to my post ?
i didn't talk about % or anything once again.

I just said it's a very very strong mod in my honest point of view.
stop talking like "noooo it's because you don't know ....."
no , i think it's a very strong mod, and i do have every frame and every prime frame in the game , i play steel path quiet a lot and i do use this mod quiet often, even if you call it "inconsistent" i think it's very strong and maybe even too strong considering how mandatory it become on some frail frames but that's another matter.

why do you even argue on a opinion ? it's only a mod that help greatly in surviving for regular frail frames
of course it won't make any frame as invincible as revenant or other frame that are nearly invincible , duh.
(though it does increase greatly even more the already very tanky frame with high base EHP)

you think it's weak because you want the game to be even easier, i think it's very strong , and that's that pretty much.

Edited by (NSW)Gamma83
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17 hours ago, (XBOX)GodMasterTP said:

No, Elite Lancers.

You're right, I just checked in Simulacrum. My bad, I misremembered 🙁.

On 2021-02-08 at 8:06 PM, GrayArchon said:

Whenever I play a Grineer mission without a status-immune frame I am basically always suffering Slash procs.

Well, the Grineer Hinds have a higher fire-rate than the player version; lotsa bullets means lotsa procs, some will be Slash...

Troopers might be the other culprits -- they aren't uncommon, and while our Sobeks are mainly Impact, theirs are majority Slash (so unfair! Wants me a proper Grineer Sobek now!)

On 2021-02-07 at 2:04 AM, (XBOX)GodMasterTP said:

it's easier to get killed by a Bombard than anything else, as far as I know he's the only grineer that can cause Blast damage

Hellions do too. (I hate those guys more than the Bombards! 😆)

5 hours ago, (XBOX)GodMasterTP said:

the difference between 67,5% DR and 90% is very high

The difference between 0% and 67.5% DR is pretty big too, though. Just sayin'.

On 2021-02-09 at 1:33 AM, (XBOX)GodMasterTP said:

I am Rhino Master Race.

Isn't Rhino a poor match for Adaptation though? As long as Iron Skin's up, Rhino takes no damage -- so he wouldn't build up any stacks, would he?

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1 hour ago, OmegaVoid said:

Isn't Rhino a poor match for Adaptation though? As long as Iron Skin's up, Rhino takes no damage -- so he wouldn't build up any stacks, would he?

I never said I use adaptation with him, since I stated pretty clear that DR tanks are bad. DR stands for Damage Reduction.

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3 hours ago, OmegaVoid said:

Isn't Rhino a poor match for Adaptation though? As long as Iron Skin's up, Rhino takes no damage -- so he wouldn't build up any stacks, would he?

I don't think they use it with him, given they don't think DR is worth anything.

Rhino's Iron Skin does prevent Adaptation from stacking/refreshing but, taking damage isn't required to do so. You can still stack it through damage immunity, such as spamming Wil-O-Wisp, or even Iron Skin's own amp phase stacks it, but obviously still useless for him.

Although, people do seem to be overvaluing Adapation, even if it gave true 90% DR, it's still worse than the other methods of surviving higher level enemies. It's why even high amounts of armor isn't much of anything.

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20 hours ago, Loza03 said:

Also, made with the idea that energy was the main limiting factor of abilities. Which... let's be honest with ourselves, energy hasn't been a major limiting factor in years.

 

Yea, very true.

They also didn't have "synergy" as DE wants to call it where you're forced to use skills together to make them useful. They just had good skills. Generally one being a dud but whatever. DE has to keep players busy with a mini game on their skills now because the actual game isn't engaging enough.

I wonder if most the community is still unaware teams can break billions of eHP and face tank 9,999 heavy unites.
Steel Path? Why? The game was technically over once we could sustain against max level enemies. I feel like that mode was just added so newer players could feel more streamlined progression when it's actually easier than what we used to do in the Void back in the day. It pretends the game got harder when it got easier.

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6 minutes ago, Xzorn said:

 

Yea, very true.

They also didn't have "synergy" as DE wants to call it where you're forced to use skills together to make them useful. They just had good skills. Generally one being a dud but whatever. DE has to keep players busy with a mini game on their skills now because the actual game isn't engaging enough.

I wonder if most the community is still unaware teams can break billions of eHP and face tank 9,999 heavy unites.
Steel Path? Why? The game was technically over once we could sustain against max level enemies. I feel like that mode was just added so newer players could feel more streamlined progression when it's actually easier than what we used to do in the Void back in the day. It pretends the game got harder when it got easier.

In fairness, keeping a player busy with skills that lead into each other isn't really a 'bad' design philosophy. It's more ability-centric than 'classic' Warframe gameplay, as it were, but it's like how the more the Jedi Knight Series focused on the lightsaber, the more stuff the lightsaber got. A more central focus on powers meant that very simple, straightforward powers would become boring. So, powers that blend into each other or into the overall loop makes a lot of sense - they become a more fleshed-out combat system, rather than effectively filling the same role as grenades. 

The issue this presents is that it requires that 'energy isn't a limiting factor' element, since at that point, other limiting factors can be built into the powers, or let energy being naturally gained from the use of powers, because you're meant to use this powers frequently. And that means the two gameplay styles are mutually exclusive to one another, at least with the energy system we have, but for as long as they stay in the same setting, they're linked.

So, Mag for example, presents a problem. If Crush becomes too powerful under the current energy economy, then she can just spam one button. That's the worst of both worlds - that power ceases to be  a rare 'wow' moment when it gets used. But it also can't be if it's too weak, because... well, the power isn't impactful. But it exists alongside Blaze Artillery or Mach Rush. So you also can't make energy rare again either, because those powers aren't mean to be super-impactful in the first place. They're meant to be more like just moves like a fighting game character would have - natural extensions of their frame's movesets. So DE is in a rock and a hard place with Mag. Extend that to basically every frame that was designed under the old philosophy - even those in transitional periods like Limbo 2.0 or Octavia.

The energy system, as we currently have it, is broken. It no longer serves its purpose in a way that benefits either camps, and it especially doesn't serve to facilitate those camps co-existing.

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it's just a weakness of Adaptation that one must keep in mind when using it. and that the one Mod alone make not does a complete answer to protecting yourself.

it's to be used in conjunction with other things, not by itself.

18 hours ago, (XBOX)GodMasterTP said:

That's why I keep telling people that DR tanks are trash

well, that's just objectively untrue. DR stacking is the only way to take regular hits from high Level Enemies. Shield Gating covers taking some hits here and there, and invulnerability isn't something that we have. not unless you ignore some of the downsides of Mesmer Skin and call that invulnerability.
if you want to take Damage from Enemies more than periodically, DR stacking is the only way to do it. having 7 digits+ EHP works reliably, everything else does not work as reliably.

Edited by taiiat
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14 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

In fairness, keeping a player busy with skills that lead into each other isn't really a 'bad' design philosophy.

 

It's not but it was also taken too far. Least IMO.

Having each ability linked by stat as an additional layer to what you mentioned for example. This removed a lot of specialization features that are still possible on old frame designs. Majority of builds come out looking pretty similar with some slight emphasis on Range or Power or Duration. Nothing drastic though which kinda leads to a questionable purpose for mods as a whole when the margin of difference becomes so small. I could have shown you 7 different Nyx builds before her rework. Now, maybe 3? Majority of the new frames are about 2-3 builds. Meanwhile I still have 5+ on older frames. This is a factor I can only see as negative despite the intention.

I feel Nidus was the start of the whole Synergy thing and in his case it's not taken too far. I can just use his Stomp / Link and be fine. I can spec him high Range with low duration and spam his 2 for groups. Spec him massive Power and Buff Link him to Banshee or similar in groups or I can add in layers to my original Stomp / Link approach while all the abilities are still impactful on their own. In later frames Synergy has become more synonymous with Dependency.

 

4 hours ago, Yamazuki said:

Rhino's Iron Skin does prevent Adaptation from stacking/refreshing but, taking damage isn't required to do so. You can still stack it through damage immunity, such as spamming Wil-O-Wisp, or even Iron Skin's own amp phase stacks it, but obviously still useless for him.

Although, people do seem to be overvaluing Adapation, even if it gave true 90% DR, it's still worse than the other methods of surviving higher level enemies. It's why even high amounts of armor isn't much of anything.

 

It's not really overvalued. Rhino is a good example of why actually.
He can be made more tanky in a group than his Iron Skin can ever reasonably provide.

Just pairing him with Trinity and an Ancient Healer with no mods at all puts him at 98.7% DR.

Technically I think fully modded he can actually be more tanky Solo if you wana drop an Ancient Healer. Iron Skin has been kinda stepped on over the years by comparison to DR. Never worked with melee Blocking. Never worked with any buff source of DR, Never worked with roll Dodging DR and it's biggest perk of not double dipping against Puncture damage is gone since they changed Warframe Health/Armor types. I've had a lot of time in Rhino so it's sad to watch.

Maybe they fixed it with Helminth but I bet his Roar still double dips Slash procs which still makes him a good damage boost. Probably still wouldn't run him in a group but if I did then I'd run full Roar with DR. Not Iron Skin. DR stacking is just too easy and CC isn't reliable anymore so not many other good choices really.

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On 2021-02-08 at 5:33 PM, (XBOX)GodMasterTP said:

I don't use DR tanks, they're very bad unless they have some mechanic that makes them near invincible, like Nidus or Hildryn. 

I am Rhino Master Race.

This.  Adaptation should be used to enhance existing tanking mechanics, not be the primary tanking mechanic.

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5 hours ago, Xzorn said:

I wonder if most the community is still unaware teams can break billions of eHP and face tank 9,999 heavy unites.

They're still living that illusion that past lvl 400 it's impossible to tank, maybe it is past lvl 1000 or something. Like, seriously, I could reach 3 million Iron Skin with only a Nidus buffing me. But whatever, people don't know how to match Warframes anymore.

5 hours ago, taiiat said:

DR stacking is the only way to take regular hits from high Level Enemies

Ahm...I could solo tank lvl 300+ corrupted enemies with Rhino. If I had a group supporting me, like Nidus/Chroma I could've gone much further (specially because Iron Skin stacks exponentially, not linearly). DR definitely isn't the way to tank high levels enemies, unless your definition of high levels enemies is not the same as mine.

I wouldn't dare to say Rhino can tank lvl 9999 enemies, by my calculations they can deal 2 million damage at least, maybe if I had a Nidus/Chroma and a Void buff I could reach 100m+ Iron Skin. But no DR tank can go that far except for him, Nidus/Trinity have 1m EHP if you count Adaptation...but that mod is sooo inconsistent, I doubt you really have that.

The thing with Rhino is that his HP bar, Iron Skin, has no limit. While every DR tank except for Chroma has a limit of 90% DR or something close, but not even Chroma can come close to Rhino because his Vex Armor doesn't stack exponentially anymore (or else he would definitely surpass Rhino, or at least be on par with him). Not to mention he would still need Adaptation...which is just trash tbh, I can't change my opinion over it, maybe you can.

5 hours ago, Xzorn said:

It's not really overvalued. Rhino is a good example of why actually.
He can be made more tanky in a group than his Iron Skin can ever reasonably provide.

Just pairing him with Trinity and an Ancient Healer with no mods at all puts him at 98.7% DR.

98,7% DR is trash, to survive high level enemies you would need 99,5% or more. With 1000 health (average for Umbral Frames w/ 100 base health) and 804 armor (Umbral Fiber), Rhino would have 3679 EHP before the 98,7% DR, resulting in 283k EHP after the DR, 2,83 million EHP after Adaptation.

Also, that's because I considered this 98,7% DR coming from separate sources (Trinity and Specter), not his total DR with them. That means his overall EHP is probably lower.

With literally 1 Nidus I can reach 3 million TRUE HP (and my build isn't even so hardcore focused into Iron Skin, there's people hitting 2 million solo with no Void buffs). If I had a Chroma, Nidus and Equinox, I could probably facetank lvl 5000 enemies.

The thing with Rhino's Iron Skin that people don't realize, is that if you multiply his str by 2, his potential Iron Skin will actually be multiplied by 4 because Ironclad Charge bonus armor also stacks with str. Not to mention that it multiplies total armor, with Nidus/Chroma/Equinox and full Growing Power, I could pretty much reach 100m Iron Skin, which is a very good amount to tank high level enemies (you can calculate their damage at lvl 9999 using the formula in the wiki). Maybe I'm wrong? Yeah, but don't underestimate Iron Skin, I did it 2 times already and I'm very ashamed of myself for it.

 

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On 2021-02-11 at 2:41 PM, (XBOX)GodMasterTP said:

Ahm...I could solo tank lvl 300+ corrupted enemies with Rhino.

if you Casted Iron Skin or Snowglobe every 8 Seconds then that could theoretically suffice, sure. would be important to have Iron Shrapnel so that you can Cast at more like 7.5 Seconds so that you don't run the risk of it running out prematurely.

ofcourse, with Iron Skin you can only go that long in assumption that you're taking continuous Damage forever and so get exactly double the absorb period in effectiveness.

 

it's less practical than, and not as good as DR stacking - since that is sufficient up to 4 digits at the bare minimum - but it can technically work. 

On 2021-02-11 at 2:41 PM, (XBOX)GodMasterTP said:

98,7% DR is trash, to survive high level enemies you would need 99,5% or more. With 1000 health (average for Umbral Frames w/ 100 base health) and 804 armor (Umbral Fiber), Rhino would have 3679 EHP before the 98,7% DR, resulting in 283k EHP after the DR, 2,83 million EHP after Adaptation.

Also, that's because I considered this 98,7% DR coming from separate sources (Trinity and Specter), not his total DR with them. That means his overall EHP is probably lower.

 

With literally 1 Nidus I can reach 3 million TRUE HP (and my build isn't even so hardcore focused into Iron Skin, there's people hitting 2 million solo with no Void buffs). If I had a Chroma, Nidus and Equinox, I could probably facetank lvl 5000 enemies.

it's ~425,000 EHP without doing anything(assuming 10x out of Adaptation is quite optimistic), is what's important. being able to Charge through enough Enemies to get Iron Skin to good numbers once works okay at lower Levels, but becomes less and less practical as Enemy Levels go up as to where recharging those numbers manually exposes you to more and more potential Damage.

that's not how DR works. independent sources of Multiplicative protection always give you exactly what they say on the tin, they are not affected by anything at all.

 

you say that as if there's any difference to EHP and HP. it's the same thing. an value to attribute the amount of Damage you can receive beore dying. whether you have 3 Million Health or you have 1000 Health with 3000x worth of DR, it's literally the same.

Edited by taiiat
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adaptation is overhyped honestly, relying on facetanking is very lazy and boring way to play.

Keep moving and bulletjumping and enemies won't touch you, dark souls teaches you that avoiding a hit is much better than taking one, i suppose there are ways to tank in wf but not really my playstyle, rolling guard, movement and shield gating is all i need to survive.

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On 2021-02-11 at 2:41 PM, (XBOX)GodMasterTP said:

Ahm...I could solo tank lvl 300+ corrupted enemies with Rhino. If I had a group supporting me, like Nidus/Chroma I could've gone much further (specially because Iron Skin stacks exponentially, not linearly). DR definitely isn't the way to tank high levels enemies, unless your definition of high levels enemies is not the same as mine.

 

There's an old video in my profile of me doing lvl 300 Kuva on Rhino 0 lives used before all the scaling nerfs and recent power creep.
Solo endurance runs are pretty much all I did in this game for fun. The rest was just grinding to use new stuff in those endurance runs.

On 2021-02-11 at 2:41 PM, (XBOX)GodMasterTP said:

I wouldn't dare to say Rhino can tank lvl 9999 enemies, by my calculations they can deal 2 million damage at least, maybe if I had a Nidus/Chroma and a Void buff I could reach 100m+ Iron Skin. But no DR tank can go that far except for him, Nidus/Trinity have 1m EHP if you count Adaptation...but that mod is sooo inconsistent, I doubt you really have that

 

DR tanks can break 1 billion last I did the math.

Trinity could hit 200k on her own. Add in Gara + Ancient Healer + Adaptation (assumed 90%) and that's 200million with only two players.
Think it can't go higher with another 2 players? Esp if Blessing still stacks for some reason. If it does then just add two Trinity and it's 3.2 billion.

On 2021-02-11 at 2:41 PM, (XBOX)GodMasterTP said:

98,7% DR is trash, to survive high level enemies you would need 99,5% or more.

 

Getting 98.7% DR Nekked. I was making a point of how easy it is to stack DR.

DR stacking is just far more dependable, potentially stronger and more than you'll need to clear 9,999 hits.
I mean anything past that are kinda pointless numbers wouldn't you say? That's why I said this game ended long ago when it comes to scaling.

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10 hours ago, Xzorn said:

 

There's an old video in my profile of me doing lvl 300 Kuva on Rhino 0 lives used before all the scaling nerfs and recent power creep.
Solo endurance runs are pretty much all I did in this game for fun. The rest was just grinding to use new stuff in those endurance runs.

 

DR tanks can break 1 billion last I did the math.

Trinity could hit 200k on her own. Add in Gara + Ancient Healer + Adaptation (assumed 90%) and that's 200million with only two players.
Think it can't go higher with another 2 players? Esp if Blessing still stacks for some reason. If it does then just add two Trinity and it's 3.2 billion.

 

Getting 98.7% DR Nekked. I was making a point of how easy it is to stack DR.

DR stacking is just far more dependable, potentially stronger and more than you'll need to clear 9,999 hits.
I mean anything past that are kinda pointless numbers wouldn't you say? That's why I said this game ended long ago when it comes to scaling.

I'll calculate right here, if that ends up working against me, so be it.

Iron Skin total health = (1200+((2,5×BA×(1+AM)+(2,5×EA))+ICC))×(1+SM)

BA = Base Armor; AM = Armor Mods; EA = External Armor (arcanes, health conversion, etc);  ICC = Ironclad Charge; SM = Strenght Mods 

My current build has 284% strenght without growing power, Health Conversion, Arcane Tanker, I also have elemental ward subsumed. If I go into a party full of people using Growing Power, a Nidus/Chroma/Equinox, I can get an extra 150% str (100% from GP and 50% from Equinox).

My Rhino total str = 434%. Assuming Chroma has 300% base str and also Nidus (since he doesn't need to build for DR to resist at high levels anyways), Nidus will buff total str by ×2,125 due to GP and Equinox. Chroma will also have (300+150)×2,125 = 956,25% str. Vex Armor buff = 3347% (it rounds up, always), and Nidus doesn't need to keep buffing Chroma because VA retains the values. 

Now, after buffing Chroma he buffs Rhino, my total str goes to 922,25%. My Elemental ward goes to 1383% . Total armor buff = 1383+3347 =  4730%, since these buffs stack with armor mods (and I don't have any equipped), they'l be classified as AM.

Going back to the formula, If I charge through mere 20 enemies (something very easy to do with a Nidus in the party), while getting an ICC buff of 461% (rounded down) armor p/enemy, that's roughly 9222% armor for 20 enemies. Now that I showed I all the numbers, let's check hm Iron Skin I'd get: 

1) Iron Skin total health = (1200+((2,5×275×(1+4730%)+(2,5×2550))+9222%))×(1+922,25%)

2) Iron Skin total health = (1200+((33'206+6375)+9222%))×10,2225

3) Iron Skin total health = (1200+(3'689'741)×10,2225 = 37,718 million Iron Skin.

More than I expected for a party without Void Buffs. If my Rhino or the Nidus ever managed to receive a void buff, my Iron Skin would already jump to 130m+ due to it's exponential nature (that's not even considering that he could buff Chroma before buffing me), if both of us got a Void buff and he buffed Chroma before buffing me (repeating the cycle I mentioned earlier), I'd pretty much reach a billion. 

Yeah you kinda have a point, Rhino is indeed inferior because it's easier to stack DR than to stack strenght bonuses, also Rhino depends on Void buffs. My only problem with your calculations is...since when does these buffs stack? 

Has anyone ever tested to see if multiple instances of DR actually stack? For example: Warding Halo with Nidus Parasitic-link? Or Warding Halo w/ that skill from Gara?

 

 

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Speaking of one shot kills, this was a bit hard to survive, even shield gating couldn't help.

Got me as I landed from jumping around.
killed by 1,635 damage at 637 health from a level 115 MALICE using a AcolyteOpticor

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On 2021-02-13 at 5:18 PM, (XBOX)GodMasterTP said:

Has anyone ever tested to see if multiple instances of DR actually stack? For example: Warding Halo with Nidus Parasitic-link? Or Warding Halo w/ that skill from Gara?

 

Yes, plenty of times myself. All the DR abilities have a cap for that reason. Armor was previously horrible DR so frames like Chroma don't.

Even back when Chroma's Vex was multiplicative it wasn't very good defense. Puncture would just eat through it or a nasty bleed proc.
Nova was actually more durable than Chroma after they reworked him and that was without using her Slow.

For a long time Trinity's Blessing stacked which was esp dumb and hopefully a bug. Not sure if it still does but my boy Summit - Banned for Photoshop Did a 4-man Trinity T4 to lvl 1,000 on MoT and no one could get hurt. He also did one of my favorites which was lvl 300 with the Mining Laser.  Game breaks easily.

Spoiler

kHBSuaP.png

 

Edited by Xzorn
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