Ways i think conclave could be made better

[(NSW)ACE6368]

Ok i was looking into conclave because i wanted the Riv armour sets but like no one ever plays conclave. Once in a blue moon you could find a match with someone sure but they are usually like on a different level and it makes really hard to get the armour set and other cosmetics (not to mention how much standing it costs and how little standing you actually get from playing conclave and the daily cap). So i wish DE would implement A.I.s in the conclave like the specters in the index that way it's easier finding matches and i won't have to drag friends into conclave which they don't want to play, increase how much standing you get after a round and maybe remove the daily cap cuz i don't want to have to wait for a whole day to do something again that is already very tedious 

[Loxyen]

Index: PvE

Rathuum: PvE

Conclave: PvP

Conclave Syndicate Rewards: Mods that help you altering your playstyle within Conclave (yay DE was generous enough to make some mods and augments work in pve now), Cosmetics to represent your dedication towards Conclave Warframe's PvP mode.

Hope you see where this goes. 😉

And no the bots won't make it better just easier to exploit/cheese standing so that DE would have to make them not give any standing at all like private lobbies...

The Conclave Syndicate already is the fastest and easiest to max out.

If you have trouble finding matches check this:

 

[standardheadache]

On 2021-02-08 at 11:17 AM, (NSW)ACE6368 said:

... i won't have to drag friends into conclave which they don't want to play...

Why not make some friends that play Conclave? They don't have to be your closest, even acquaintances can help you know when matches are up, which are usually every day. It depends on your time zone.

On 2021-02-08 at 11:17 AM, (NSW)ACE6368 said:

maybe remove the daily cap cuz i don't want to have to wait for a whole day to do something again that is already very tedious 

I agree with removing the daily cap, but it's moreso for people who enjoy the mode to still be rewarded for playing it after their standing is maxed. If the experience is tedious for you, it's one of the least rewarding syndicates, and you can buy the fanciest Riv set with plat. As for the other rewards, the Tron skins are relatively low-resolution, the syandana needs active play to light, most of the mods only work in PvP, and those that are cross-mode can usually be earned in other ways. If you were to skip one syndicate because you don't enjoy the gameplay, this would be the one.

[Tyreaus]

4 hours ago, Loxyen said:

The Conclave Syndicate already is the fastest and easiest to max out.

Citation needed? I get around 1.5k (maybe 2k if I'm really on my game) standing per 10 min match in Conclave and ~500 standing for a single syndicate (~700 total) in a smidge over 1 minute in a lazy Capture run (done solo). And I'd tend to consider myself right about average in both.

[Loxyen]

11 hours ago, Tyreaus said:

Citation needed? I get around 1.5k (maybe 2k if I'm really on my game) standing per 10 min match in Conclave and ~500 standing for a single syndicate (~700 total) in a smidge over 1 minute in a lazy Capture run (done solo). And I'd tend to consider myself right about average in both.

I mean sure... you do you... But you could do that easily aswell in a random match.. 

https://imgur.com/a/74MrxL6

[Tyreaus]

3 hours ago, Loxyen said:

I mean sure... you do you... But you could do that easily aswell in a random match.. 

https://imgur.com/a/74MrxL6

"You do you?" Turn that around. You're the one proclaiming it's the fastest and easiest syndicate to level when over half the lobby is (probably) making under what one could get for a quick-ish Capture run (my 1.5k games land my kills around the 5-ish-plus range). That seems neither the quickest nor the easiest for the average player. Quickest and fastest for you? Sure. But in case that leaderboard didn't tell you, you're not the only one playing.

[Loxyen]

2 hours ago, Tyreaus said:

"You do you?" Turn that around. You're the one proclaiming it's the fastest and easiest syndicate to level when over half the lobby is (probably) making under what one could get for a quick-ish Capture run (my 1.5k games land my kills around the 5-ish-plus range). That seems neither the quickest nor the easiest for the average player. Quickest and fastest for you? Sure. But in case that leaderboard didn't tell you, you're not the only one playing.

You can get the regular standing cap AND the rep from the challenges as additional reputation on top AND you get additional 50k from Teshin for doing some weeklies. The reputation gain is based on your performance during the match. From Conclave you get the most standing shoved up the arse by far. How fast you gain it depends on you.

[standardheadache]

6 hours ago, Tyreaus said:

"You do you?" Turn that around. You're the one proclaiming it's the fastest and easiest syndicate to level when over half the lobby is (probably) making under what one could get for a quick-ish Capture run (my 1.5k games land my kills around the 5-ish-plus range). That seems neither the quickest nor the easiest for the average player. Quickest and fastest for you? Sure. But in case that leaderboard didn't tell you, you're not the only one playing.

I don't play that often anymore, but my standing gain from an average well-balanced match range from 3-7k, where I generally go 1:1. You get more points for ability kills, combo kills, aerial kills (you're aerial), aerial kills (enemy is aerial), headshots, and probably a few other factors I'm forgetting. I've been playing Conclave since TWW, but some people exceed what I could ever do in a few months, if that. It really depends on how much you want to put into the mode. Me? I'm content vibing with my Tetra and my Nova in tight spaces and feeding off easy kills like a vulture.

[Tyreaus]

20 hours ago, Loxyen said:

You can get the regular standing cap AND the rep from the challenges as additional reputation on top AND you get additional 50k from Teshin for doing some weeklies. The reputation gain is based on your performance during the match. From Conclave you get the most standing shoved up the arse by far. How fast you gain it depends on you.

Woah woah woah, what happened to this being the easiest syndicate to max? Now I have to do a crap-load of other challenges on top of playing the mode to get standing gains above what I'd get from a lazy Capture speed-run (where I am still setting aside the syndicate missions)? One of which, if I recall right for that 50K standing, involves winning 20 games (and against someone like you, say, that's very unlikely - which is a fairly common problem with many of the challenges).

17 hours ago, standardheadache said:

I don't play that often anymore, but my standing gain from an average well-balanced match range from 3-7k, where I generally go 1:1. You get more points for ability kills, combo kills, aerial kills (you're aerial), aerial kills (enemy is aerial), headshots, and probably a few other factors I'm forgetting. I've been playing Conclave since TWW, but some people exceed what I could ever do in a few months, if that. It really depends on how much you want to put into the mode. Me? I'm content vibing with my Tetra and my Nova in tight spaces and feeding off easy kills like a vulture.

AFAIK, deaths don't count for or against, so it'd be kills not KDR. And as Loxyen's screen-cap shows, it's entirely possible to get 10-odd kills with a 1:1 KDR. It's more common to get 4-5 - half that amount. And, assuming I'm right, and that 3-7k happens to be around the 10 kill area, well...

(Though I don't know what your kill amounts are so...that's entirely assumptive conjecture)

Maybe there is some element to how I played that factors in some as well - I don't know. I don't know in what ways the way I play mixes in with how well I do. But we're also talking about Conclave being the easiest syndicate to max. I am totally open to admitting it's one of the fastest, potentially. Yet this is turning out to be contingent on balanced matches and performance and doing additional challenges and finding matches where challenges are possible for an average player. None of that screams "easiest" when the next comparable thing is going for a virtual walk.

And it's kind of bothersome when someone says "it's fine" after considering only their side of their own nose. Maybe, you know, there's a reason the topic of standing gain comes up time and time again. Because 7/8ths of a lobby isn't getting 20k standing in a match.

[Loxyen]

2 hours ago, Tyreaus said:

Woah woah woah, what happened to this being the easiest syndicate to max? Now I have to do a crap-load of other challenges on top of playing the mode to get standing gains above what I'd get from a lazy Capture speed-run (where I am still setting aside the syndicate missions)? One of which, if I recall right for that 50K standing, involves winning 20 games (and against someone like you, say, that's very unlikely - which is a fairly common problem with many of the challenges).

AFAIK, deaths don't count for or against, so it'd be kills not KDR. And as Loxyen's screen-cap shows, it's entirely possible to get 10-odd kills with a 1:1 KDR. It's more common to get 4-5 - half that amount. And, assuming I'm right, and that 3-7k happens to be around the 10 kill area, well...

(Though I don't know what your kill amounts are so...that's entirely assumptive conjecture)

Maybe there is some element to how I played that factors in some as well - I don't know. I don't know in what ways the way I play mixes in with how well I do. But we're also talking about Conclave being the easiest syndicate to max. I am totally open to admitting it's one of the fastest, potentially. Yet this is turning out to be contingent on balanced matches and performance and doing additional challenges and finding matches where challenges are possible for an average player. None of that screams "easiest" when the next comparable thing is going for a virtual walk.

And it's kind of bothersome when someone says "it's fine" after considering only their side of their own nose. Maybe, you know, there's a reason the topic of standing gain comes up time and time again. Because 7/8ths of a lobby isn't getting 20k standing in a match.

Cherry picking are we? Most challenges are done while playing for the daily cap anyway. Don't tell me stuff like smashing ctrl while getting 3-4 kills is the Everest kind of a challenge... Depending on your daily challenges it actually could complete up to 2 challenges at once. Crap-load my arse... Its additional rep on top of your daily cap while you already play and 2 possible dailies each mode. Even at 2.0 Conclave's launch time everyone was laughing about how ridiculously easy the challenges were and thought about harder ones that'll be deemed worthy the name challenge. Meaning in consideration for beginners DE already set a very low bar to begin with.

If anything the matchmaking and the dwindling player numbers due to the years of dev neglect are the problem here.

Its complete 20 matches within a week, not win...

https://imgur.com/a/gFPKwgh

 

[Tyreaus]

6 hours ago, Loxyen said:

Cherry picking are we?

You mean like how you point to specific challenges that anyone can do and ignore the others that require a touch higher skill? 

6 hours ago, Loxyen said:

Most challenges are done while playing for the daily cap anyway. Don't tell me stuff like smashing ctrl while getting 3-4 kills is the Everest kind of a challenge... Depending on your daily challenges it actually could complete up to 2 challenges at once.

That's true that those situations are possible - but there are also ones like Kill Streak, Streak Stopped, various Lunaro ones, the headshot one...you know, the sorts of things that are little more toward the Himalayas.

Moreover, and correct me if I'm wrong because I haven't hopped into Conclave in some time: aren't Focused challenges ones that have to be completed in a single match? In which case, half the lobby there likely wouldn't have completed those?

6 hours ago, Loxyen said:

Crap-load my arse... Its additional rep on top of your daily cap while you already play and 2 possible dailies each mode.

And then I shall motion to the other syndicate missions. The ones I ignored in my initial assessment. Which can give equitable standing for less effort.

6 hours ago, Loxyen said:

Even at 2.0 Conclave's launch time everyone was laughing about how ridiculously easy the challenges were and thought about harder ones that'll be deemed worthy the name challenge. Meaning in consideration for beginners DE already set a very low bar to begin with.

And, to reiterate, this is compared to taking a stroll in a Capture mission for a quite equitable amount of standing (and remember: it's PvP so it's already a touch more difficult by its nature. That's not bad, that's just a fact.). That the challenges aren't especially difficult in isolation indicates nothing of a comparison. And if you're making the claim it's the fastest and easiest, that makes comparisons.

6 hours ago, Loxyen said:

If anything the matchmaking and the dwindling player numbers due to the years of dev neglect are the problem here.

And there is, of course, no possible way it could also be due to people like SpezzaOssa leaving after getting maybe a touch over 1/100th the standing of the top player and having to spend somewhere around 2,500 hours at that rate for many of the rewards. I don't recall exact numbers and when I started counting my 15,000-odd games, but from what I recall, those bottom two players are going to be spending somewhere around 100 games for a skin. Something around 166 hours of getting their rear end pushed in. There's no way that almost total annihilation of extrinsic headway could possibly discourage people from engaging in Conclave, especially when the rewards are largely cosmetic or PvP-centric. And in other revelations: I don't exist.

And no kidding dev neglect has shot Conclave in the kneecaps. But, y'know, maybe other parts of the mode's design are also contributing to that player loss? Maybe things aren't great despite the fact you're having the time of your life at the top of the leaderboard? Perhaps the insistence of things fitting to a particular mould is undermining the rest of the structure? Not like Conclave was massively flourishing before the mess of shield gating and fall-off bugs and Telos and so on. Hell, the playerbase being too small to support matchmaking has been a problem since I can remember first playing Conclave, back when it was still (at least decently) well-balanced.

That's why I've espoused the benefits of adding things like bots not necessarily for standing gain (I'd lean toward increasing base standing over making bots grant standing because, again, 1/100th) but to make lobbies feel more active - at least when there was more than one lobby, as by my observations, things have regressed even further since then. Nowadays the main benefit would just be reprieve and a feeling of progress (even absent actual syndicate progress) for the players at the bottom of the leaderboard. Let's be real: SpezzaOssa isn't going to stick around. The effort isn't worth 200 standing and getting smacked in the arse with a paddle for ten minutes. There's no fun to be had in that, even intrinsically. Without SpezzaOssa, Groxonator probably doesn't get any kills. He gets relegated to 200 standing and a paddling. Or maybe he gets one kill and gets 300. Either way, he goes. You haven't even gotten into buggy or glitchy bullocks with the PvE bleed-overs - the sorts of stuff dev neglect has certainly created - and you've already yeeted a quarter of your lobby onto the Void on a non-refundable basis.

That's not to say dev neglect doesn't also hurt (because of course it does), but you're talking about an extant framework that gives 200 standing and a smack on the arse to some players for 10 minutes of their time - and given their position, that's probably 10 minutes of not fun time. The average standing gain in a Conclave match may be around the same, possibly a smidge above a casual walk through a Capture mission - I can see those averages being about equal once all challenge completions and syndicate missions are accounted for given an average skill level and RNG on the challenge draws (even though that 50k is very highly unlikely for an average player, expected values are a thing and all). And all time and gains considered, setting aside all the bullcrap about what's actually faster and easier...that's not a bad number for Conclave. 1.5k-2k isn't terrible for 10 minutes. The problem is, it isn't like other syndicates where gains don't appreciably fluctuate between players. Pretty much anybody can go for a walk in a Capture mission and get within the ballpark of the standing I got with little issue, and they can easily do any of the syndicate missions without a big problem too. The lowest end for them is maybe about the 2-2.5k / 10m range - just to ballpark. The lowest end for Conclave sits around 1/10th of that on a good day, and for a much more miserable time.

Or, in other words: if you want to talk about people leaving Conclave, it's probably worth looking at both ends, not just the high one. Both in terms of extrinsic values and intrinsic ones. Because your 24 kills and 20,000 standing gain isn't going to mean jack to the guy who just spent 10 minutes getting smacked around for 200 standing and is walking out the door. Those gains are great for you, but he's the type you're going to need to keep around if you want people for your matchmaking to work.

Or, don't. It's entirely an option to focus on the higher end and not even pay lip service to the rest. It works for DE, after all.

(To be clear: that last bit isn't sarcasm. DE is doing just fine ignoring Conclave, and Conclave would survive ignoring the lower-skilled players as it does. Doesn't mean neither is lacking because of that.)

[Loxyen]

16 hours ago, Tyreaus said:

You mean like how you point to specific challenges that anyone can do and ignore the others that require a touch higher skill? 

As you said its just a touch which shouldn't even be a problem to begin with because there are the very easy ones aswell.

 

16 hours ago, Tyreaus said:

That's true that those situations are possible - but there are also ones like Kill Streak, Streak Stopped, various Lunaro ones, the headshot one...you know, the sorts of things that are little more toward the Himalayas.

Moreover, and correct me if I'm wrong because I haven't hopped into Conclave in some time: aren't Focused challenges ones that have to be completed in a single match? In which case, half the lobby there likely wouldn't have completed those?

You mean stuff like "Kill 3 enemies while Airborne in a match"? Sure they exist, but we also got stuff like "Complete 1 matches" and a lot of other versions that are not limited by one match. "Capture 4 Cephalons", "Kill 4 enemies while Airborn", "Return your team's Cephalon 1 times", "Complete 6 Successful Passes to teammates" as examples. That makes 5 unlimited vs 3 with the phrase 'in a match' of my dailies rn. Solid ratio tbh.

 

16 hours ago, Tyreaus said:

And, to reiterate, this is compared to taking a stroll in a Capture mission for a quite equitable amount of standing (and remember: it's PvP so it's already a touch more difficult by its nature. That's not bad, that's just a fact.). That the challenges aren't especially difficult in isolation indicates nothing of a comparison. And if you're making the claim it's the fastest and easiest, that makes comparisons.

Isolation? I picked the time around its launch deliberately, because it used to be a very active and change/development happy point in time in Conclave's history. You had players from all kinds of games, skill levels and backgrounds overall and all came to a similar consensus like I stated and that consisted as the essential opinion at least until poe launched, when DE stopped the development for Conclave. Which caused bugs and unbalance due to reworks and a dwindling player count in the end.

 

17 hours ago, Tyreaus said:

And there is, of course, no possible way it could also be due to people like SpezzaOssa leaving after getting maybe a touch over 1/100th the standing of the top player and having to spend somewhere around 2,500 hours at that rate for many of the rewards. I don't recall exact numbers and when I started counting my 15,000-odd games, but from what I recall, those bottom two players are going to be spending somewhere around 100 games for a skin. Something around 166 hours of getting their rear end pushed in. There's no way that almost total annihilation of extrinsic headway could possibly discourage people from engaging in Conclave, especially when the rewards are largely cosmetic or PvP-centric. And in other revelations: I don't exist.

If the game gets no dev support and thus inevitably keeps changing to the worse people will leave and thats what happened.  <-problem

If there are less people playing you will meet less people of your own 'skill level' and thus have to face more unfair match ups, which of course makes it harder to gain standing for somebody new. But look at the same time we have a friend list and a chat to stay in touch with players that are at a similar level, the Conclave discord and other partnered servers with their Conclave sections offer big chances to get into touch with said players aswell. Yes these are band aid solutions for player feedback that DE used to and still ignores.

Comming back to your point people struggling with the challenges in a pvp setting is not the problem, its a symptom caused by the problem I stated above and it would be way more efficient to focus the development on a fix of the problem than just one of its symptoms. The challenges are easy, but the match ups make them hard as you stated on your own.

 

17 hours ago, Tyreaus said:

And no kidding dev neglect has shot Conclave in the kneecaps. But, y'know, maybe other parts of the mode's design are also contributing to that player loss? Maybe things aren't great despite the fact you're having the time of your life at the top of the leaderboard? Perhaps the insistence of things fitting to a particular mould is undermining the rest of the structure? Not like Conclave was massively flourishing before the mess of shield gating and fall-off bugs and Telos and so on. Hell, the playerbase being too small to support matchmaking has been a problem since I can remember first playing Conclave, back when it was still (at least decently) well-balanced.

I have fun goofing around with fun builds at the bottom of the leaderboard aswell... imagine that. xD And yes I'd love to see Conclave being more populated again.

Yes the pvp matchmaking system needs a rework aswell and players been asking for stuff like a server browser for ages. For people who don't know how it works it easily seems like the mode is completely dead due to multiple layers of restrictions. RC or not, several regions, ping limits, connection bugs (and don't forget that full and private lobbies aren't shown either, there is no chance knowing about them unless somebody of your fl/clan plays there)

 

Ultimately we both share the same goal, but I doubt that an adjustment of the standing gain would fix anything as long as we have that hindrance of a match making system and such a low player population caused by dev neglect constantly interfering. Yes bots would function as some filler, but I highly doubt that DE is capable of developing and balance an AI that'll cover for all kinds of skill level... not even by ability... but how even would you define the perimeters of said 'skill levels'? Not to mention that they'd create a two layer meta, one against bots and one against those who use the bot meta and cause new problems... I'd honestly like to see that effort put into use to fix the matchmaking, bugs and existing exploits first, so that people who do play the mode like to stay and play in an healthy environment. The potential of people exploiting the bot system if they give reputation is way to high as we already got to know about the booster warnings, their overall toxicity (before the warnings) and private lobbies not giving reputation.

[(PSN)Xx-Ribbium-xX]

On 2021-02-09 at 7:58 PM, Loxyen said:

Index: PvE

Rathuum: PvE

Conclave: PvP

Conclave Syndicate Rewards: Mods that help you altering your playstyle within Conclave (yay DE was generous enough to make some mods and augments work in pve now), Cosmetics to represent your dedication towards Conclave Warframe's PvP mode.

Hope you see where this goes. 😉

And no the bots won't make it better just easier to exploit/cheese standing so that DE would have to make them not give any standing at all like private lobbies...

The Conclave Syndicate already is the fastest and easiest to max out.

If you have trouble finding matches check this:

 

^this