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is it just me? or should melee change again ?(bare with me please!!)


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I know i complain about melee every year since melee 3.0 and i know you don't want someone to bring up how stupidly overpowered melee is right now.

but i just can't tolerate it anymore. i'm not happy with it.

i used to be a CQC player, i LOVED exalted Warframes.

i mained the vanilla Destreza for two years!!!

DE my disappointment is immeasurable, and my love for close quarters combat is ruined :( 

what's the problem with melee now? 

DE Dumbed down stances and cranked melee weapons and melee mods up to eleven.

this left no room for build creativity and variety, all builds are the same, and all melee weapons are the same except a minor tweak in stats and different looks.

this also eliminated all potential strategies that melee could've had! all you have to do is spam E or circle (PS4) and everything dies.

or if you took my route, pick up a Stropha and one shot ALL enemies with heavy attacks, mindless, effortless heavy attacks, i took that route because i've found absolutely no reason to use melee combo attacks or the combo counter.
 

Give us more reasons to use these Dumbed down combo moves, and change the combo system altogether 

try to introduce new type of builds by changing priorities 

and finally do something about this abnormal damage we put out without even hitting the 12x combo

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primary and secondary need a buff, some exalted warframe weapons need a revisit, also khora's wipclaw fix and few warframes revisit(inaros,zephyr) .

frankly there's a lot of stuff that needs fixing

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I like the current melee, because it is more fluid than before, the problem in my opinion is the enemy strenght also dumbled down so they are not so strong on early levels, where they are scaled on later levels it depends on the mods. Most players who complain have umbral, nightmare, overpowered mods what the avarege or challenge seeking players don't have. Maybe few mods could get some stat revisit, also secondary and primary weapons could get some buffs. 

Nerfing what finally works in my opinion is just unfun.

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"I made my weapons OP, DE why'd you make me do this!?"

No one made you build a stropha. No one made you use blood rush. Why don't you just take it off and use a regular crit mod?

Condition overload and blood rush were "nerfed", remember? 

Edit: Also, R2 is my melee attack. Using the default ps4 controls is ridiculous.

Edited by (PSN)Madurai-Prime
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The problem with the current way of melee is two fold: Damage and mentality.

Damage is easy to explain, you get an enemy in range its going to die unless it can counter or stop your attacks, like Liches and Shield Lancers. How easy they are to die. And the weapons that dont kill them faster are usually left wayside.

Mentality is... well, what I said above. You can have the most stylish combos avalible, but when the mission is to have enemies die, the one that kills faster will win.

If we are to have another change to melees, I suggest we focus not on the stats, but on the Combos. Currently, Combos can do 2 distinct things: Lift and Increase damage.

I'm sure you noticed some combos throwing enemies in the air and there are some others that just give more damage on that hit: Tempo Royale's Standing M2 is one of them.

Vulpine Mask has granted Slash on the first hits of the standing Combo, but I think those are Increase Damage types.

Ultimately, we need combos that can give different utility when used or have enemies weaker to some Combos or types of Melees. Or some combos do other things like give some temporary Sprint/Bullet Jump speed when you hit enemies. It would complicate the system, but maybe complexity is what we need in this case...

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The only thing melee needs is a nerf in damage, there is no reason for us to deal the damage we do with melee weapons because there is nothing that can stand in our way. The stances are fine in their more streamlined manner, since quick melee did the same job prior and was the most used way for melee. It's good that all melee share the same combo input, since it helps muscle memory, it's hard to have that memory intact if you have 10 different weapon classes, all with their different input commands, it is even worse when those 10 weapon classes also have 2-3 different stances all with different input commands.

We know the damage is out of hand when things like max leveled liches and acolytes deep into steel path get decimated in seconds by our melee weapons. This thanks to both the melee update and the changes to statuses and how they effect bosses. Early on in steel path it is mostly enough to run up to an acolyte and hit it with the guaranteed Sword+Board slash proc, then go about your business as it dies from that proc and whatever heat got inflicted from S&A's normal damage procs. And when it comes to liches, they dont even have time to react between successful stabs, the moment they recover the prompt pops up for another stab.

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I won't stop saying this, melee needs some kind of restraint like stamina, there is zero downside using melee except for a few enemies like Nox and Bursa (and you still can hit them on weak spots with melee) and the Dragyns. Weapons have reload, magazine and ammo as downside (and to surpass it you need to invest in mods or using a single sentinel), spamming melee endlessly doesnt' have any restraint and that stuff about "but you need to be close to an enemie to hit him" is pure bullS#&$, since most melees achieve 5 or 7m of distance with a single mod and with our current mods and arcanes for frame eHP, damage from enemies isn't a problem anymore, even without mods we have shield gating to protect us.

There is no possible solution to this unless they buff enemies, nerf melee or add some sort of stamina back and honestly, those 3 options will cause backlash from the community. They cornered themselves on this, let's see how they solve it (and I'm sure they'll have to deal with this some day).

Edited by vanaukas
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2 minutes ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

"I made my weapons OP, DE why'd you make me do this!?"

No one made you build a stropha. No one made you use blood rush. Why don't you just take it off and use a regular crit mod?

Condition overload and blood rush were "nerfed", remember? 

Okay then, since its supposedly that easy: How exactly do you make your weapons not overpowered? How do you build your weapons to make them properly balanced against what you are currently fighting? How much DPS is the right amount for level 10 enemies? Level 20? 30? 100? 200? How many hits should it take for a properly balanced weapon to kill a Lancer of any level? What about a Bombard? Or a Crewman? And what exact build should you use to achieve any of that?

Also: Is the game more fun if you aren't overpowered? Does simply nerfing yourself, and killing enemies slower actually make it more fun to play? Does it make grinding less tedious? Does it make combos more fun to use?

And, finally: Why should we have to do this at all? The entire game is built around encouraging players to acquire more power so we can then acquire even more power. So if you aren't going to use that power you put so much time and effort into getting, what was the point? Why did you even bother getting it in the first place? If you stop using power, you stop getting power. And if you stop getting more power, you fairly quickly realize its pointless to play at all.

Warframe basically punishes you for playing it how it tells you to play it. A properly designed game would do the opposite, and encourage you to play the "right" way. You get a powerful new weapon, and now you can access more of the game. There needs to actually be a reason to gain more power. But Warframe's entire progression system is built around the assumption that bigger numbers equals bigger fun, and nothing else. So, beyond the early game, the is never any specific reason to actually become more powerful.

I also have to wonder, do you actually play this way? Do you actually practice what you preach, and self-nerf like you say? Or do you still just use whatever OP meta build makes grinding go the fastest?

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3 minutes ago, vanaukas said:

I won't stop saying this, melee needs some kind of restraint like stamina, there is zero downside using melee except for a few enemies like Nox and Bursa (and you still can hit them on weak spots with melee) and the Dragyns. Weapons have reload, magazine and ammo as downside (and to surpass it you need to invest in mods or using a single sentinel), spamming melee endlessly not and that stuff about "but you need to be close to an enemie to hit him" is pure bullS#&$, since most melees achieve 5 or 7m of distance with a single mod and with our current mods and arcanes for frame eHP, damage from enemies isn't a problem anymore, even without mods we have shield gating to protect us.

There is no possible solution to this unless they buff enemies, nerf melee or add some sort of stamina back and honestly, those 3 options will cause backlash from the community. They cornered themselves on this, let's see how they solve it (and I'm sure they'll have to deal with this some day).

With the glorious Vigilante Supplies, ammo isn't an issue at all, actually. We also have the Helminth/Protea solution.

I can spam the Bramma and acceltra til my hearts content. And with certain weapon buffs from frames, I can wipe the map just as fast or faster.

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3 minutes ago, Teljaxx said:

Okay then, since its supposedly that easy: How exactly do you make your weapons not overpowered? How do you build your weapons to make them properly balanced against what you are currently fighting? How much DPS is the right amount for level 10 enemies? Level 20? 30? 100? 200? How many hits should it take for a properly balanced weapon to kill a Lancer of any level? What about a Bombard? Or a Crewman? And what exact build should you use to achieve any of that?

Also: Is the game more fun if you aren't overpowered? Does simply nerfing yourself, and killing enemies slower actually make it more fun to play? Does it make grinding less tedious? Does it make combos more fun to use?

And, finally: Why should we have to do this at all? The entire game is built around encouraging players to acquire more power so we can then acquire even more power. So if you aren't going to use that power you put so much time and effort into getting, what was the point? Why did you even bother getting it in the first place? If you stop using power, you stop getting power. And if you stop getting more power, you fairly quickly realize its pointless to play at all.

Warframe basically punishes you for playing it how it tells you to play it. A properly designed game would do the opposite, and encourage you to play the "right" way. You get a powerful new weapon, and now you can access more of the game. There needs to actually be a reason to gain more power. But Warframe's entire progression system is built around the assumption that bigger numbers equals bigger fun, and nothing else. So, beyond the early game, the is never any specific reason to actually become more powerful.

I also have to wonder, do you actually play this way? Do you actually practice what you preach, and self-nerf like you say? Or do you still just use whatever OP meta build makes grinding go the fastest?

Maybe ask someone that cares? Like the OP? I love the game how it is.

I have no issues with melee or enemy scaling etc, so why would I look for solutions to something that doesn't need to be fixed?

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5 minutes ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

With the glorious Vigilante Supplies, ammo isn't an issue at all, actually. We also have the Helminth/Protea solution.

I can spam the Bramma and acceltra til my hearts content. And with certain weapon buffs from frames, I can wipe the map just as fast or faster.

 

11 minutes ago, vanaukas said:

 Weapons have reload, magazine and ammo as downside (and to surpass it you need to invest in mods or using a single sentinel)

I forgot to add Protea and Helminth tho

Edited by vanaukas
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8 minutes ago, vanaukas said:

I won't stop saying this, melee needs some kind of restraint like stamina, there is zero downside using melee except for a few enemies like Nox and Bursa (and you still can hit them on weak spots with melee) and the Dragyns. Weapons have reload, magazine and ammo as downside (and to surpass it you need to invest in mods or using a single sentinel), spamming melee endlessly doesnt' have any restraint and that stuff about "but you need to be close to an enemie to hit him" is pure bullS#&$, since most melees achieve 5 or 7m of distance with a single mod and with our current mods and arcanes for frame eHP, damage from enemies isn't a problem anymore, even without mods we have shield gating to protect us.

There is no possible solution to this unless they buff enemies, nerf melee or add some sort of stamina back and honestly, those 3 options will cause backlash from the community. They cornered themselves on this, let's see how they solve it (and I'm sure they'll have to deal with this some day).

Usually, in most other games, the limitation of melee is simply having to get close to your target to hit them. This is usually a super risky proposition, because you are going to get shot the entire time you are approaching your target.

But in Warframe, we can easily have such a massive amount of EHP, or just straight up become invincible, that this doesn't matter. Plus, we move so fast, that period of vulnerability is nearly non-existent. So, combining that with the superior damage output, and lack of other restrictions like reloading, melee ends up being the superior option in almost every situation.

Simply lowering its potential DPS would be a big step towards fixing this melee domination. But the rest of the game will also need some changes if DE ever wants things to truly be even between weapon types. Lower our EHP, so getting close is actually a risk. Reduce our agility so it takes longer to enter melee range. Slow down melee attacks, so you can't just spam them all the time without risking getting locked into an animation and not being able to dodge. Etc.

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1 hour ago, (PSN)Hopper_Orouk said:

I know i complain about melee every year since melee 3.0 and i know you don't want someone to bring up how stupidly overpowered melee is right now.

but i just can't tolerate it anymore. i'm not happy with it.

i used to be a CQC player, i LOVED exalted Warframes.

i mained the vanilla Destreza for two years!!!

DE my disappointment is immeasurable, and my love for close quarters combat is ruined :( 

what's the problem with melee now? 

DE Dumbed down stances and cranked melee weapons and melee mods up to eleven.

this left no room for build creativity and variety, all builds are the same, and all melee weapons are the same except a minor tweak in stats and different looks.

this also eliminated all potential strategies that melee could've had! all you have to do is spam E or circle (PS4) and everything dies.

or if you took my route, pick up a Stropha and one shot ALL enemies with heavy attacks, mindless, effortless heavy attacks, i took that route because i've found absolutely no reason to use melee combo attacks or the combo counter.
 

Give us more reasons to use these Dumbed down combo moves, and change the combo system altogether 

try to introduce new type of builds by changing priorities 

and finally do something about this abnormal damage we put out without even hitting the 12x combo

Here's a thing... Combos matter. The fact that you're not aware of this, kinda invalidates the rest of your post.
Not all weapons are the same, and not all stances are the same. Some stances make your weapons way stronger (especially ones with guaranteed slash procs in the "dumb combo").
The "abnormal" damage is quite ok, you need that abnormal damage in steel path, so yeah. It only seems abnormal compared to ranged weapoon damage, but that's only because ranged weapons don't have scaling damage mods (like CO and Blood Rush), which is something they need.

The could for example use a combo system tied to your accuracy, every hit would increase your combo, misses would shave a bit out of the counter. So its less of a problem with melee, but with ranged weapons.

Melee do still need some work, they never really released the full promised 3.0 thing. They still haven't released one-handed+secondary weapons outside of glaives, and there's still some work to be done with stances to baseline the whole thing. Also heavy attacks aren't quite what they promised, but that's kinda ok...

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6 minutes ago, vanaukas said:

 

I forgot to add Protea and Helminth tho

Mods are a part of the game's natural progression. Do you think that people shouldn't mod or forma? You don't have to put 100 forma in vauban like that one player, but gradually moving from 1 to 7 or 8 forma isn't out of this world. 

If a player wants to reach a certain level with a frame or weapon, they're gonna have to put that work into it. If you lower the bar to make casual 2 forma users stronger, how much stronger do you think min maxers will be? 

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1 minute ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

Do you think that people shouldn't mod or forma?

No and I don't udnerstand how you got that idea, since I was talking about primary and secondarie weapon restraint and how they can be surpassed with mods, sentinels or abilities while melee doesn't have any restraint and doesn't need any mod, sentinel or ability to surpass it, because it doesn't exist.

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7 minutes ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

Maybe ask someone that cares? Like the OP? I love the game how it is.

I have no issues with melee or enemy scaling etc, so why would I look for solutions to something that doesn't need to be fixed?

If you don't even believe in your own solution, then why did you suggest it? What was the point of saying anything at all?

I asked all those questions to show that you were simply dismissing the OPs argument, instead of actually solving anything. Because you are suggesting that their problem is of their own creation, and therefore doesn't matter. But your suggested solution doesn't actually fix anything. if it did, you could have answered all those questions I asked. But you can't, because this isn't a problem of our own creation. This isn't us playing the game wrong. This is a problem with the game itself.

And just because you are so unaware of that fact doesn't make it any less true. Unless, of course, you can prove how the game actually benefits from letting melee be overpowered? Or how bringing some proper balance to the system would actually make the game worse?

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1 minute ago, vanaukas said:

No and I don't udnerstand how you got that idea, since I was talking about primary and secondarie weapon restraint and how they can be surpassed with mods, sentinels or abilities while melee doesn't have any restraint and doesn't need any mod, sentinel or ability to surpass it, because it doesn't exist.

You need to forma melee weapons to fit Blood Rush, Condition Overload, weeping wounds and later on, primed faction mods. Without some of these mods, you're actually quite restrained. If I tried to go into Mot without them, I'd have to use way more hits to take enemies down. This would lower my ability to kill more enemies, which would drop life support faster.

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5 minutes ago, Teljaxx said:

If you don't even believe in your own solution, then why did you suggest it? What was the point of saying anything at all?

I asked all those questions to show that you were simply dismissing the OPs argument, instead of actually solving anything. Because you are suggesting that their problem is of their own creation, and therefore doesn't matter. But your suggested solution doesn't actually fix anything. if it did, you could have answered all those questions I asked. But you can't, because this isn't a problem of our own creation. This isn't us playing the game wrong. This is a problem with the game itself.

And just because you are so unaware of that fact doesn't make it any less true. Unless, of course, you can prove how the game actually benefits from letting melee be overpowered? Or how bringing some proper balance to the system would actually make the game worse?

The OP said "or if you took my route, pick up a Stropha and one shot...."

That means he decided to use the stropha. His issue is he doesn't want to be overpowered, yet for some reason can't stop himself from using overpowered things. 

If he doesn't want to be overpowered, then he needs to try to control his own actions and use a different weapon and different mods. 

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37 minutes ago, Kaotyke said:

If we are to have another change to melees, I suggest we focus not on the stats, but on the Combos. Currently, Combos can do 2 distinct things: Lift and Increase damage.

Combos can do few other things (not all). It's not "that much" but still worth nothing.

  • ranged attack (exodia, gunblades, glaives and Vitrica)
  • moving you forward while attacking or "jump" to enemy (block + forward + attack)
  • blocking
  • stun enemies - Vaykor Sydon, it's very tedious to get this buff... but it's nice reading the description.
  • move you to some place - slam attacks
  • pull enemies to you - Telos boltace
37 minutes ago, Kaotyke said:

Ultimately, we need combos that can give different utility when used or have enemies weaker to some Combos or types of Melees. Or some combos do other things like give some temporary Sprint/Bullet Jump speed when you hit enemies. It would complicate the system, but maybe complexity is what we need in this case...

That's why I like gunblades and melees with unique features. I would like reasons to use different melees. As for now you have maybe few types (not counting melees with unique features & zaws) that are interesting.

23 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

it's hard to have that memory intact if you have 10 different weapon classes, all with their different input commands, it is even worse when those 10 weapon classes also have 2-3 different stances all with different input commands.

This! "Free movement" is nice to have (you can move in any direction) however "standardized combos" are much better than random combos of previous system.

20 minutes ago, vanaukas said:

I won't stop saying this, melee needs some kind of restraint like stamina, there is zero downside using melee except for a few enemies like Nox and Bursa (and you still can hit them on weak spots with melee) and the Dragyns. Weapons have reload, magazine and ammo as downside (and to surpass it you need to invest in mods or using a single sentinel), spamming melee endlessly doesnt' have any restraint and that stuff about "but you need to be close to an enemie to hit him" is pure bullS#&$, since most melees achieve 5 or 7m of distance with a single mod and with our current mods and arcanes for frame eHP, damage from enemies isn't a problem anymore, even without mods we have shield gating to protect us.

Sure... every enemy is ~5 meters from you. If you have ever played Open world then you could see enemies farther away. I can "snipe" enemies without even seeing them.

1 hour ago, (PSN)Hopper_Orouk said:

Give us more reasons to use these Dumbed down combo moves, and change the combo system altogether 

try to introduce new type of builds by changing priorities

You have standing and moving combos. Sure you can always move & attack but that doesn't mean that combos are dumb.

As for second... yeah. They tried it with Glaives. After the change I guess you can have more varieties in builds.

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1 hour ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

"I made my weapons OP, DE why'd you make me do this!?"

No one made you build a stropha. No one made you use blood rush. Why don't you just take it off and use a regular crit mod?

Condition overload and blood rush were "nerfed", remember? 

Edit: Also, R2 is my melee attack. Using the default ps4 controls is ridiculous.

Such a bad response. If DE makes a warframe that has a 25 energy cost ability that wipes the entire map of enemies, you would say "oh just use these sucky ass frames instead". If they made anything broken in the game beyond repair, you would say "oh you can just gimp yourself as you please". Hopefully you don't get employed as on the balance team of a game or you would ruin it without question.  

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6 minutes ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

The OP said "or if you took my route, pick up a Stropha and one shot...."

That means he decided to use the stropha. His issue is he doesn't want to be overpowered, yet for some reason can't stop himself from using overpowered things. 

If he doesn't want to be overpowered, then he needs to try to control his own actions and use a different weapon and different mods. 

Do you seriously not see the issue in what you just said? You know its possible to become OP, and you know that being OP is a problem. But you don't think DE needs to fix this problem. Why?

I ask again: How does the game benefit from letting us be overpowered? Would balancing melee make the game worse?

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The way of Melee is there to appease the masses of kids and others that just jam on the buttons

Since we got the game, there was a combo Achievement in it that when most vets started, was actually something we strived to hit. Then came that day that DE gave use Blood Rush. Players clamored for this as it allowed them to get more damage while doing less building up slaps to the enemy. You do not have to do much except keep hitting the button and you get the reward of things dying in waves before your frame. I have not used Blood Rush yet but I am a different type of player. I like using my Primary/Secondary to hit the enemies, stab slash those that are melee and jump away to shoot while looking for the one with the MERCY symbol to put down with that Parazon. I enjoy Finishers from the get go. One of the reasons i miss Channeling- get rid of them bodies with a channel finish and keep on sneaking.

As for using combos built into the stances, yesh. I enjoy doing this but when you are in Pubs or in a squad, all that happens is AOE or someone running from one crowd to another building that meter before the combo expires. Combos extend the fun of the melee experience but can barely be used with so many META and kids just bwam pow bing everything in sight. Hey, they do not know we are here...lets Sneak Att- BOOM! BLAM!! EXPLODE!!!....nevermind

We the player do have a choice on how we mod. Nothing in WARFRAME says use the Meta Tenno.....that is all choice. Do different for your weapons of choice. WHen the community says -Finisher Damage on a Riven is a bonus since no one uses Finisher Damage, that tells you the way they think these days. No one is looking for that 1 on 1 clash with a Melee Opponent or a Sneak Attack or a Mercy....its all go American and bomb the foes. No more Ninja says the Meta Witch....BUT you can prove it wrong by building towards what makes each weapon and combo unique.

Choose your way. 

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