"Melee Good, Gun Bad."

[Traumtulpe]

Apparently the current fad is to demand melee nerfs. My Youtube reccomendations say so. As someone who doesn't currently play warframe, nor plans on doing so for the remaining duration of the current Night Wave (3-18 months), I feel adequately qualified to share my opinion.

Yes, melee is "too strong", but it makes no difference. The complainers usually use Inaros, making them functionally invincible. Thus removing the risk from using melee. Players being invincible is the real issue here.

Guns are not bad. They are perfectly fine, you are bad.

DE has given up on balancing weapons. Their general aim is to make them do enough damage, then add diminishing returns on the DPS important enemies can recieve. It doesn't work very well, and dealing significantly less damage per shot when your +firerate Arcane activates feels terrible.

You can reduce melee damage by 75% and it changes nothing. I know because I sometimes equip all Dragon Keys. Melee has forced bleeds, which bypass armor and thus kill everything. And you'll still be invincible.

The solution: Roll out a test server build with -50% melee damage. Just so everyone can see that Warframe still isn't any more fun than before. Or just hotfix it silently. Would anyone even notice?

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

It's really true that youtubers get people riled up. Classic propaganda. 

We should honestly be nerfing youtubers haha. 

 

[captainHalide]

Melee has the weeping wounds / condition overload / blood rush / power spike where ranged does not, and it offers melee the chance to gain multi-factor multiplicative damage boosts where range has flat-capped damage bonuses. 

Melee does not need a nerf.  Ranged just needs an equivalent scaling power set to keep up.

[Sevek7]

29 minutes ago, Traumtulpe said:

risk from using melee

Yeah this has always been DE's statement too: "Using melee is risky because you get up close and personal, so you should be rewarded with high damage because you took the risk."

Only one problem: due to Warframe's AI, melee range is actually the safest place to be!

1) When you're in melee range, a large number of grouped enemies have their aim blocked by their friends, and so they don't even attack you at all. If you stay at long range, they spread out and all of them shoot at you.

2) When using melee weapons, your attacks keep you very mobile. Therefore enemies are likely to miss their attacks on you. If you stay at range and line up shots with ranged weapons, you are a sitting duck and get hit a lot.

3) Melee autoblocks 100% of frontal damage, including special effects like knockdowns.

I agree with you in principle. Melee should be a risky choice rewarded with high damage. But that's simply not how Warframe works. It's the safe & easy choice that still comes with the massive damage boost. 

[Vortex]

We don't need any video to see that melee are overpowered if compared to guns.

And i don't follow any youtuber or use any video to have my own feedback/conclusion, i only play the game.

[NinjaKitsune56]

22 minutes ago, Sevek7 said:

Only one problem: due to Warframe's AI, melee range is actually the safest place to be!

The one exception to this is Infested, since none of them give a damn about their friends' proximity. This is due to the fact Mutalist MOAs offer field support simply by shooting the ground around you, as well as the AOE capability of Mutalist Ospreys (which does nothing to their friends) and the varied Ancient Healer eximus, which all provide benefits to their friends through simple proximity. With them, I just break out the Radiation/Viral weapons and start blasting everything that screeches at me. Which is everything on an Infested map.

[Sevek7]

21 minutes ago, NinjaKitsune56 said:

The one exception to this is Infested, since none of them give a damn about their friends' proximity. This is due to the fact Mutalist MOAs offer field support simply by shooting the ground around you, as well as the AOE capability of Mutalist Ospreys (which does nothing to their friends) and the varied Ancient Healer eximus, which all provide benefits to their friends through simple proximity. With them, I just break out the Radiation/Viral weapons and start blasting everything that screeches at me. Which is everything on an Infested map.

Ah yes fair point :) I was thinking mainly about enemies that have both ranged and melee attacks. You're right that infested don't fit the statements I made earlier. 

[Uhkretor]

1 hour ago, Traumtulpe said:

Melee has forced bleeds, which bypass armor

Correction - "Some Melee weapons, and respective stances, has forced bleeds on certain combos, which bypass 30% armor"

 

Please do correct that, since that's how Slash bleed damage works now. Thanks in advance.

[shut]

23 minutes ago, Uhkretor said:

Correction - "Some Melee weapons, and respective stances, has forced bleeds on certain combos, which bypass 30% armor"

 

Please do correct that, since that's how Slash bleed damage works now. Thanks in advance.

This literally is not how bleed damage works, but ok lol

 

[Genitive]

Invincibility isn't the issue. The issue is that melee weapons deal significantly more damage than guns with less investment.

[Xaero]

1 hour ago, Uhkretor said:

that's how Slash bleed damage works now

Doesn’t Bleed deal True damage that completely ignores armor?

[Traumtulpe]

2 hours ago, Sevek7 said:

[...]

Not quite. A lot of enemies don't stop to shoot you above medium distance, or become very inaccurate. You are also able to bullet jump and glide while shooting, reducing enemies accuracy further. Melee does not block status effects, nor does it block anything while attacking, or anything you aren't looking at.

Most importantly, you distract from the fact that the player is invincible to begin with. If this is not the case, melee does actually present a risk. Have an example:

I used to level Warframes in a Steel Path survival mission (for the Helminth), using a melee weapon. However, one of them was too lightly armored and had too low HP to survive 10 minutes without getting oneshot (utilizing what little mods I could fit). So I used a Kuva Tonkor instead, took me ~12 minutes, but without XP loss from death.

[(XBOX)Big Roy 324]

4 hours ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

It's really true that youtubers get people riled up. Classic propaganda. 

We should honestly be nerfing youtubers haha. 

 

These kind of statements are why many claim this game is dying.  The feed back of those youtubers is legit. Melee out performs gunplay by a wide margin.  I literally never potato my melee weapons unless I am certain I like them and I usually don't struggle in their use against higher star chart/sortie level enemies. 

However, it's not just that melee is strong but it's not complicated or involved in anyway.  You literally just spam the button. We don't need to nerf melee as much as a rework in how it works.  Somehow it needs to be more complicated and gunplay more rewarding for less investment. 

Also steel path should show that there are issues with how the game is played. Level 100+ enemies by the numbers should be impossible or extremely challenging. They aren't and it's because of how simple the game can become when you can prime them with statuses and spam melee. 

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

16 minutes ago, (XBOX)Big Roy 324 said:

These kind of statements are why many claim this game is dying.  The feed back of those youtubers is legit. Melee out performs gunplay by a wide margin.  I literally never potato my melee weapons unless I am certain I like them and I usually don't struggle in their use against higher star chart/sortie level enemies. 

However, it's not just that melee is strong but it's not complicated or involved in anyway.  You literally just spam the button. We don't need to nerf melee as much as a rework in how it works.  Somehow it needs to be more complicated and gunplay more rewarding for less investment. 

Also steel path should show that there are issues with how the game is played. Level 100+ enemies by the numbers should be impossible or extremely challenging. They aren't and it's because of how simple the game can become when you can prime them with statuses and spam melee. 

Any gun can kill star chart and sortie level enemies as well. People just aren't admitting they want to one shot Steel path enemies with guns. 

You have some people that think their progression stops at 1 forma. Any gun with 3+ forma can kill T3 sortie enemies, with even more forma putting you over the top. It's not that hard. It requires knowing how to mod.

And melee stances have multiple uses. It's not the games fault people spam the same button. You have other combos available to you.

Level 100 enemies are absolutely nothing.....is that a joke? You do realize that the enemy level goes to 9999, right? For people that actually know how to play the game, level 30 and level 100 are the same. It's usually around level 400 to 600 that you have to start getting serious.

Players need to start actually thinking and modding according to the faction they're fighting and utilizing their frames abilities to synergize with their guns. I do 60 minutes in steel path and arbitrations with guns....but I actually worked on my builds and use proper mods. 

[(XBOX)Big Roy 324]

1 minute ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

Any gun can kill star chart and sortie level enemies as well. People just aren't admitting they want to one shot Steel path enemies with guns. 

You have some people that think their progression stops at 1 forma. Any gun with 3+ forma can kill T3 sortie enemies, with even more forma putting you over the top. It's not that hard. It requires knowing how to mod.

And melee stances have multiple uses. It's not the games fault people spam the same button. You have other combos available to you.

Level 100 enemies are absolutely nothing.....is that a joke? You do realize that the enemy level goes to 9999, right? For people that actually know how to play the game, level 30 and level 100 are the same. It's usually around level 400 to 600 that you have to start getting serious.

Players need to start actually thinking and modding according to the faction they're fighting and utilizing their frames abilities to synergize with their guns. I do 60 minutes in steel path and arbitrations with guns....but I actually worked on my builds and use proper mods. 

No offense but you do realize most people have lives, play other games, or value their time?  The issue isn't that you can get enemies of high health and damage. It's that once you do they really aren't any different than lower level ones. The issue isn't that you have to spam melee to kill everything. It's that you can killing any illusion of difficulty.

Modding isn't really modding but owning good mods that you can slot into your weapons.  The fact that you have to go to level 400-600 to get serious in warframe while other games can succeed in surprising you and killing you on middle and lower difficulty levels should be a clue. I do understand yourself and many others have lots of time and investment in this game.  So you would like to be rewarded for that.  However, I would like you to consider if the reward you feel you received is sufficient for your further enjoyment. 

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

7 minutes ago, (XBOX)Big Roy 324 said:

No offense but you do realize most people have lives, play other games, or value their time?  The issue isn't that you can get enemies of high health and damage. It's that once you do they really aren't any different than lower level ones. The issue isn't that you have to spam melee to kill everything. It's that you can killing any illusion of difficulty.

Modding isn't really modding but owning good mods that you can slot into your weapons.  The fact that you have to go to level 400-600 to get serious in warframe while other games can succeed in surprising you and killing you on middle and lower difficulty levels should be a clue. I do understand yourself and many others have lots of time and investment in this game.  So you would like to be rewarded for that.  However, I would like you to consider if the reward you feel you received is sufficient for your further enjoyment. 

You don't actually have to fight level 500 enemies, though. That's the point. The entire base game is so easy, that any weapon can kill any regular level enemy. DE does this so you don't actually have to try hard anything. 

Mods and forma are the main progression of the game. The games basic mods drop from rotation rewards and enemies. There are 3 tiers. You have to complete missions on planets further in the solar system to get them. The Void, Sedna, Jupiter, Neptune etc. Rotation C means you have to stay until the 20min mark in survival, round 20 for defense and round 4 for disruption.

You need to understand the games mechanics and anyone can do this. 

Grineer and the corrupted are the only tough enemies.....their armor needs to be lowered via corrosive, heat, abilities that lower armor, and you can even use viral to further lower their EHP. You can spread these statuses out between 2 guns. That's corrosive on one weapon, and viral on another weapon. You can add 2 elements on a weapon easily by using unranked 60/60 mods.

The infested and corpus are easy, you just have to mod for them accordingly.

[(XBOX)GodMasterTP]

4 hours ago, Uhkretor said:

Correction - "Some Melee weapons, and respective stances, has forced bleeds on certain combos, which bypass 30% armor"

 

Please do correct that, since that's how Slash bleed damage works now. Thanks in advance.

Slash still bypass all armor, I don't know where the hell you got that 30% info but it is wrong.

[Tyreaus]

6 hours ago, Traumtulpe said:

Players being invincible is the real issue here.

Okay, that could be a fair point, and probably a good first step before tweaking other elements of melee as it might be needed after the--

6 hours ago, Traumtulpe said:

The solution: Roll out a test server build with -50% melee damage.

Wot.

[Andele3025]

8 hours ago, Traumtulpe said:

Yes, melee is "too strong", but it makes no difference. The complainers usually use Inaros, making them functionally invincible. Thus removing the risk from using melee.

You can reduce melee damage by 75% and it changes nothing. I know because I sometimes equip all Dragon Keys. Melee has forced bleeds, which bypass armor and thus

The solution: Roll out a test server build with -50% melee damage. Just so everyone can see that Warframe still isn't any more fun than before. Or just hotfix it silently. Would anyone even notice?

Ah yes, the "too strong" melee whose damage is around 40-60k dps (excluding the 2 actually insane stances as far as multipliers go in BJ and SO) is too high compared to the 40-60k dps of guns (excluding the insane cases like a max stack heat beam gun).

Clearly has nothing to do with CLEAVE, mods, lack of base polarities on guns, CLEAVE, people being trash at modding with ammo economy in mind, skill floor of aiming, CLEAVE or anything similar, oh geeze if only we had historical precedent that guns that do something like (CLEAVE) reduce said pitfalls end up extremely used *cough ignis, catchmoon, bramma, nukor... likely soon a certain 5th bow and tri-RPG as they keep rising in popularity cough*.
No no no clearly already gutted in any depth options melee (since melee lost free movement, sprint influence on dashes, block cancels, keyboard steer dashes, stances being 90% cut apart and glued with animation locks, loss of functional life strike and loss of around 40% of its high end potential damage to instead ramp much quicker as guns have no need to ramp, but at least got the floor brough up and standardized in range) should lose 50% of its damage.

[Drachnyn]

The difference in damage is not what makes melee so powerful, it's inherently being AoE and only very few guns can compete with that. I also disagree with melee being the riskier style of play, only removed by playing functionally invincible frames (Inaros definitely is one of the less offending frames on that front). Directional blocking and melee slams negate a lot of enemy damage, far more then regular rifles can. Closing the distance also is not an issue. That is if you dont want to camp behind a corner and just abuse hitscan mechanics of course.

Melee should stay as powerful as it is (not saying there shouldnt be changes to stances to make them more fluid because that definitely needs to happen) we "just" need more enemies that encourage the use of regular rifles. If everything is a basic fodder enemy, AoE will always prevail. DE has made attempts at making more interesting enemies, some of them more successful that other.

[MonsterOfMyOwn]

Yes guns are lacklusters, and have little use appart from hunter munitions or AoE status spam (which is conveniently used by your condition overloaded melee. Use Cedo alt fire for maximum grofit).

In steel path you don't have to do long endless to experience the difference between melee and guns efficiency.

So what need nerfs ? Basically just slash status.

What need buffs ? guns and most status.

What I'd like to see is an increase of headshot damages for guns that require aiming (i.e. not melee nor ignis wraith / catchmoon / nukor kuva), and an overall damage buff for anything that is not a melee with both condition overload + bloodrush (note that the Cedo make any melee better with condition overload than primed pressure point)

[Krilexis]

I see everywhere "Slash is king" so if we want something out of guns is to bring back puncture and impact and other "forgotten" statuses like blast.

[Loza03]

The main issue I have with this thread is it's taking the issue in isolation.

 

Melee dealing 20X the amount of damage of guns, in armour-piercing format whilst having a damage resist, innate CC and no ammo requirement is a problem. BUT so is players being invincible or having means of disregarding enemies entirely at the push of a button with no limiting factors on how much they can do it. It's not an either-or situation here. 

Both are problems on their own, and they exacerbate each other.

[MonsterOfMyOwn]

il y a 1 minute, Krilexis a dit :

I see everywhere "Slash is king" so if we want something out of guns is to bring back puncture and impact and other "forgotten" statuses like blast.

Slash + viral is king (when you farm against grineer, but why farming anywhere else ?)

[Marvelous_A]

Melee is the best category for hybrid build and melee weapons benefits greatly from status effects because CO exists. Ammo efficiency is also an issue for guns while melee is mostly no-brainer.