"Melee Good, Gun Bad."

[Hypernaut1]

They're ninjas. Melee should be the first option when in range. 

 Leave it up to youtubers to turn a non issue into the next big thing to complain about. They need content right? I expect a bunch of damage comparison videos now and backseat game designing videos. 

[JackHargreav]

Yeah and if they nerf us to make melee riskier everyone will cry.

Just buff the primary weapons and problem solved. There are some weapons that became painfully outdated.

[0_The_F00l]

21 hours ago, Uhkretor said:

Correction - "Some Melee weapons, and respective stances, has forced bleeds on certain combos, which bypass 30% armor"

 

Please do correct that, since that's how Slash bleed damage works now. Thanks in advance.

The hell did you get that from ? Slash procs still completely bypass Armor unless there was some change in an undocumented patch. You really shouldn't be apreading misinformation.

 

As to the topic at hand , it's not just about "Melee stronk" it's about "melee stronk and convenient "

Melee has a lot of things going for it 

1. Access to multiple damage boost mods (Condition overload , bloodrush , heavy , elemental ) that are multiplicative to each other and can usually be placed in a single build.

2. Stances with forced procs (one of the reasons why some weapon types are preferred over others), there is the flip side where some weapons are not preferred for the same reason.

3. Damage passthrough/AOE , you don't just attack one enemy , you attack every enemy in range and though there is a concept of damage reducing after every passthrough it really isn't noticeable.

4. Improved survivability , by blocking front facing attacks and having access to life steal mods.

5. Minimum awareness of enemies is needed to actually attack or follow them around , while guns do need some aiming (outside the exceptions of aoe weapons ) 

6. No downtime for reload ,

7. No ammo dependence.

 

With these many things (and more niche ones which I haven't highlighted ) it is obvious why melee is better in most scenarios.

 

 

[MonsterOfMyOwn]

il y a 25 minutes, Marvelous_A a dit :

Melee is the best category for hybrid build and melee weapons benefits greatly from status effects because CO exists. Ammo efficiency is also an issue for guns while melee is mostly no-brainer.

Don't forget bloodrush (even without naramon). You rarely have red crit with guns, but any hybrid melee can have red 

[vanaukas]

Melee is fine on damage, nerfing them won't solve the issue, buffing primaries and secondaries won't solve the issue. Melee needs some kind of restraint to avoid being able to spam E endlessly, that would require a similar approach on how guns have restratins that you can surpass with mods/Carrier/abilities. Melee doesn't have any downside on use besides few enemies and some bosses that involves some gun mechanics (aka weakspots most of the time), wich can be surpassed using a gunbalde most of the time if you can get in the optimal range for no falloff dmg.

[Aldain]

You don't even need Weeping Wounds or CO or whatnot to make melee bonkers in most content either.

My Pennant can do a heavy attack, with nothing more than the auto 2x combo from Corrupt Charge and a general slapdash of damage mods and apply a Slash proc which can MELT anything below level 300+ in one swing and a few seconds of bleed.

Melee does so much damage that even unga bunga builds outpace 99% of guns, we went from Melee being useless outside of meme builds and bad CO math to Guns being useless unless they're AoE status hoses or just Bramma style "dumbfire" tier.

[(PSN)Wil_Shatner_face]

52 minutes ago, MonsterOfMyOwn said:

Don't forget bloodrush (even without naramon). You rarely have red crit with guns, but any hybrid melee can have red 

There are also plenty of melee weapons that can’t red crit that are still extremely powerful. Red crits don’t really matter other than looking cool on the screen.

[(XBOX)GodMasterTP]

1 hour ago, 0_The_F00l said:

Damage passthrough/AOE , you don't just attack one enemy , you attack every enemy in range and though there is a concept of damage reducing after every passthrough it really isn't noticeable.

It is really noticeable, you're just either fighting really weak enemies or you're thinking it works like punchthrough, because it doesn't. 

Imagine 3 enemies, 2 are paired horizontally and 2 vertically, they're positioned in a way that makes the shape of an L. In that case, your damage won't be reduced horizontally but vertically, that's how followthrough works.

[KittySkin]

19 hours ago, (XBOX)Big Roy 324 said:

No offense but you do realize most people have lives, play other games, or value their time?  The issue isn't that you can get enemies of high health and damage. It's that once you do they really aren't any different than lower level ones. The issue isn't that you have to spam melee to kill everything. It's that you can killing any illusion of difficulty.

Modding isn't really modding but owning good mods that you can slot into your weapons.  The fact that you have to go to level 400-600 to get serious in warframe while other games can succeed in surprising you and killing you on middle and lower difficulty levels should be a clue. I do understand yourself and many others have lots of time and investment in this game.  So you would like to be rewarded for that.  However, I would like you to consider if the reward you feel you received is sufficient for your further enjoyment. 

You have something to think here. Warframe players are not used to being killed by low level enemies. In fact, if theres any form of challenge, they want it to be removed (the majority of the player base). Thats mainly because its a grind based game and grinding while having challenges are usually not a good thing, but people are so used to play just for the reward. A lot of looter games have this same issue, IDK how they can fix it without turning into a pay to play game, where grinding its not part of the monetization.

[(XBOX)GodMasterTP]

1 hour ago, 0_The_F00l said:

Improved survivability , by blocking front facing attacks and having access to life steal mods.

A half truth, you either attack or block, you can't do both. And if you're at melee range, chances are you are surrounded because you can't position yourself in a way that every enemy is in line of sight.

[Veridian]

1 hour ago, 0_The_F00l said:

....

On top of that I'd add that you can safely get away with a few QoL mods that are way better than any ranged equivalent, the most glaring being Life strike and Healing return.

More capacity as well = cheaper to min/max

 

[(XBOX)GodMasterTP]

1 hour ago, 0_The_F00l said:

. No ammo dependence.

This point is pretty irrelevant because no weapon except for Kohm and Kuva Bramma will have any problem with ammo efficiency.

[MonsterOfMyOwn]

il y a 2 minutes, (PSN)Wil_Shatner_face a dit :

There are also plenty of melee weapons that can’t red crit that are still extremely powerful. Red crits don’t really matter other than looking cool on the screen.

I'm not sure about what you mean. Condition overload is now kinda universal if you use the Cedo, and heavy attacks with forced slash are also better with high crit chance / mult

[(PSN)Wil_Shatner_face]

2 minutes ago, MonsterOfMyOwn said:

I'm not sure about what you mean. Condition overload is now kinda universal if you use the Cedo, and heavy attacks with forced slash are also better with high crit chance / mult

Huh? Condition Overload has nothing to do with your critical damage tier. You mentioned red crits, so I pointed out that some melee weapons can never red crit simply because their base crit chance is too low, but they can still be extremely powerful.

[ReddyDisco]

i got baited, thought this was a sarcastic melee nerf thread about melee nerf threads

was expecting more memes :(

[0_The_F00l]

29 minutes ago, (XBOX)GodMasterTP said:

It is really noticeable, you're just either fighting really weak enemies or you're thinking it works like punchthrough, because it doesn't. 

Imagine 3 enemies, 2 are paired horizontally and 2 vertically, they're positioned in a way that makes the shape of an L. In that case, your damage won't be reduced horizontally but vertically, that's how followthrough works.

There is a visible stat in game that shows how much damage you do after every consecutive enemy between 0.5 to 0.7 on average,

and most melee attacks don't go in the same direction repeatedly they will have a left to right to left to right swings , 

So the first enemy that takes most damage the first time will be taking the least damage in the second swing so it usually averages out if the enemies aren't dead in the first few swings. 

I don't have enough free time to do 3 hour extended runs , so your observations may be different than mine in those scenarios.

27 minutes ago, (XBOX)GodMasterTP said:

A half truth, you either attack or block, you can't do both. And if you're at melee range, chances are you are surrounded because you can't position yourself in a way that every enemy is in line of sight.

Well , yes but you can't block with ranged weapons at all,  so for the purpose of comparison you get innate DR by simply looking at the enemy , you do not get that benefit with ranged weapons ( I have had mixed results with glaive dual wield when aiming )

And when you are within melee range the enemies themselves will block loS of those behind them. 

And the few times I have been surrounded completely by enemies on all sides is usually when I got teleported by a commander or in ESO , in most other scenarios the enemies are either in front of me or so far behind that there is a door blocking the enemy los.

25 minutes ago, (XBOX)GodMasterTP said:

This point is pretty irrelevant because no weapon except for Kohm and Kuva Bramma will have any problem with ammo efficiency.

Still a point to be considered which adds to the convenience of melee. And there are a few more that are pretty poor on ammo efficiency but are also just overall weak.

37 minutes ago, Ver1dian said:

On top of that I'd add that you can safely get away with a few QoL mods that are way better than any ranged equivalent, the most glaring being Life strike and Healing return.

More capacity as well = cheaper to min/max

 

I did highlight how we get added survivability.

[MonsterOfMyOwn]

il y a 33 minutes, (PSN)Wil_Shatner_face a dit :

Huh? Condition Overload has nothing to do with your critical damage tier. You mentioned red crits, so I pointed out that some melee weapons can never red crit simply because their base crit chance is too low, but they can still be extremely powerful.

My point is that my melee are either combo x2 for heavy, crit with blood rush or status with condition overload.

I have a meme build for a fragor with finisher damage, but I barely use it

I'm prolly biased because I mostly play steel path

[Tiltskillet]

56 minutes ago, (XBOX)GodMasterTP said:

It is really noticeable, you're just either fighting really weak enemies or you're thinking it works like punchthrough, because it doesn't. 

 

I absolutely agree that follow through is a big deal.  What's most remarkable to me though is how good even low follow through melee weapons can be at quickly dealing with masses of enemies in SP.  

Hammers, admittedly, don't fare that well for me, but I think that has a lot to do with their stances lacking forced bleed procs.  Whip blades: no problemo.

 

[(XBOX)GodMasterTP]

10 minutes ago, Tiltskillet said:

I absolutely agree that follow through is a big deal.  What's most remarkable to me though is how good even low follow through melee weapons can be at quickly dealing with masses of enemies in SP.  

Hammers, admittedly, don't fare that well for me, but I think that has a lot to do with their stances lacking forced bleed procs.  Whip blades: no problemo.

 

Forced slash procs are indeed very OP, I don't think they should be removed tho. Slash was much better before, now there is actually a reason to build for different statuses. 

My real problem is that some weapons don't really have forced procs, or just have VERY USELESS forced procs...like lifted...God, Heavy Blades took a massive L with that stupid lifted status.

Anyways, what puts Guns behind melees is mostly what Guns don't have in terms of mods, not in features themselves. Cedo is the best example of that, you literally just had to add CO to a Gun, even tho its built in CO is weaker than the CO that melees have, it is already enough to make it useful at high levels.

[(PSN)Wil_Shatner_face]

1 hour ago, MonsterOfMyOwn said:

My point is that my melee are either combo x2 for heavy, crit with blood rush or status with condition overload.

I have a meme build for a fragor with finisher damage, but I barely use it

I'm prolly biased because I mostly play steel path

At this point I don’t even know what you’re talking about. What I’m saying applies to Steel Path as well as every other game mode: red crits don’t really matter.

Take the Ceti Lacera vs the Jat Kusar for example. Both excellent blade and whips that can shred Steel Path enemies, but only the Jat Kusar can red crit due to its high innate crit chance. Does that make it better than the Ceti Lacera? No it does not, because Ceti Lacera excels in other areas such as status chance and attack speed. Both are great weapons. I hope this clears up what I mean.

[-Vahagn-]

On 2021-02-09 at 10:45 AM, Traumtulpe said:

Guns are not bad. They are perfectly fine, you are bad.

Silly me, I forgot to put condition overload, weeping wounds and blood rush on my Paris.

[MqToasty]

As a relatively new player here, I have to ask: is it necessarily a problem that melee is meta in this game?  Every game has its meta and no game can possibly (nor should the developers want to) balance every weapon.  There are already a handful of bosses that require us to shoot straight with a ranged weapon, there are sorties that lock us into certain weapon types, vehicular combat (archwing and necramech) are basically all-ranged affairs.  Is that not good enough?  Now I can go on about how this game is ostensibly about space ninjas so it should be all slice and dice, or about how being a 3rd person game makes aiming less precise, but I actually do not want to argue that melee should be meta.  I just want to ask if people actually see this as a problem, and if so, why?

[(PSN)Wil_Shatner_face]

11 minutes ago, MqToasty said:

 I just want to ask if people actually see this as a problem, and if so, why?

I think the simple answer is that it limits player choice. If melee is overwhelmingly better than ranged then people just won’t use ranged weapons at all.

Of course guns are still perfectly viable in most content in this game, anything up to sorties at least. But when guns can barely scratch Steel Path enemies without some kind of debuff first, I’d say that’s a problem.

[GEN-Son_17]

4 hours ago, Drachnyn said:

The difference in damage is not what makes melee so powerful, it's inherently being AoE and only very few guns can compete with that. I also disagree with melee being the riskier style of play, only removed by playing functionally invincible frames (Inaros definitely is one of the less offending frames on that front). Directional blocking and melee slams negate a lot of enemy damage, far more then regular rifles can. Closing the distance also is not an issue. That is if you dont want to camp behind a corner and just abuse hitscan mechanics of course.

Melee should stay as powerful as it is (not saying there shouldnt be changes to stances to make them more fluid because that definitely needs to happen) we "just" need more enemies that encourage the use of regular rifles. If everything is a basic fodder enemy, AoE will always prevail. DE has made attempts at making more interesting enemies, some of them more successful that other.

Agreed. Warframes are NINJAS first. The devs even stated that melee is and should be the most powerful weapon a warframe has because...well, ninja. This is only really noticed in steel path though, which is not a place DE intends to make the marker of gameplay.

 This also goes back to a poster stating that youtubers have too much influence. All youtubers were told before any other player that SP was not intended to be worked on much. Now, just like always, they choose not to listen and decide to force a change anyway and then claim "DE doesn't listen". 

[Yamazuki]

3 hours ago, MonsterOfMyOwn said:

Don't forget bloodrush (even without naramon). You rarely have red crit with guns, but any hybrid melee can have red 

If red crits matter, most melee don't get them anymore, and you can get them even with guns. Although, red crits don't matter, they're just "appealing" to see. There was some whining when the stats were changed about red crits being gone from most melee weapons.

I've used the non-meta ranged weapons even in SP, and surprise, I can kill enemies with them [without Warframe buffs/debuffs], but also surprise, some issues weapons have aren't their damage, but their lack of aoe [or both]. Why would anyone bother with single target guns when you can run around mindless shooting the air with aoe ranged weapons and kill everything? Yet, no one really bothers to suggest fixing them for how Warframe is designed, even though DE just keeps releasing more and more aoe weapons or aoe alternate fire systems. A general damage increase does literally nothing to fix the issue of aoe vs single target, single target guns would have to 1 shot enemies to be competitive with aoe, or have some small aoe effect per shot. Grouping enemies is pretty easy, so at least a small explosive effect would make a huge difference.

Even if melee was deleted [nerfed to the ground] from the game, the weapons being used wouldn't change, at all. Most people already opt into use aoe guns, and anyone that used melee would either quit or transition into specific abilities, that wait for it... are aoe. It's also not as if the high class known as Content Creators, would be happy. They don't care about guns vs melee, they're literally paid to complain. Remember when the whining was actually about aoe abilities vs everything else? Last I checked, abilities weren't nerfed, the closest was Khora, but the nerf did nothing. Yet, the complaining shifted anyways.

Then there's the whole "priming" melee damage that gets thrown around. Anyone that hasn't sat in a mission for several hours is complaining for the sake of complaining, and everyone already knows by now DE won't balance for something they won't encourage doing; and overbuffing ranged weapons to 1 shot everything defeats the purpose of "endurance" running, and even the melee guaranteed kill was removed. "Priming" a melee is a massive waste of time, and it's "hilarious" [not] when content creators would showcase doing this in Simalcrum; during the priming any decent gun would've just killed said enemy in significantly less time. I'm also not sure why people go out of their way to mention loadouts dedicated to maxing out melee damage, but seemingly refuse to acknowledge loadouts that insanely increase ranged dps output, which is one of the reasons all bosses, despite almost all of them being pretty much immune to non-gunblades, still die in a single hit. These silly phases, and immunities don't exist due to melee.

Even Necramechs were released to use aoe ranged damage spam. Railjack? aoe spam. 

I'm sure by now you'll realize it's aoe that matters above all. If a gun 1 taps 10 enemies, and another gun takes 10 shots while hitting one, the logical thing to expect is most people are going to use the first gun. Although, somehow people come to the conclusion that the way to fix the second gun never being used is to nerf melee and abilities. Nerfing alternatives doesn't make single target guns any stronger against the alleged high level enemies they are seemingly unable to kill.