"Melee Good, Gun Bad."

[Corvid]

6 hours ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

They didn't use modern assault rifles and pistols with homing explosives....

Everything they used, most of these meta players would say it's not efficient or call it trash.

They used whatever tools were needed to get the job done. If an automatic weapon or a bomb was the best way to do it, they likely would.

3 hours ago, (XBOX)Architect Prime said:

No. Not while DE nerfs things based on usage. 

If you can't show it, you don't know it.

[(PSN)Wil_Shatner_face]

2 hours ago, MqToasty said:

Fair enough.  I can see myself being turned off by this game (or avoid some content altogether) if melee were mostly useless like in many other shooters.  We all have different preferences, and it is only natural to want more content that caters to the playstyle we prefer.

More options are always better, IMO. I agree with Tiltskillet on the answer to your question, no it isn’t absolutely necessary for guns to be on par with melee, but I think it would improve the game if they were, simply because it expands the pool of player choice.

[SteveCutler]

I'm in the nerf melee camp. I think part of the reason why melee is so overpowered in the first place, is due to the existence of Blood Rush and Weeping Wounds. Not only do these mods make melee overpowered, but also less fun to play.

The light and heavy attack system was obviously designed and intended to be used in a way where you mix both light attacks and heavy attacks, using light attacks most of the time and being rewarded with a free heavy attack every now and then. Instead, players build exclusively for either light attacks or heavy attacks. The reason why players would build exclusively for light attacks is because of Blood Rush and Weeping Wounds, which are the only remaining ways to benefit from the combo counter with light attacks. Because we get such a ridiculous crit chance and status chance bonus, we never want to perform heavy attacks as we would lose DPS by doing so. This also causes player stress, as there's the constant fear of losing the entire combo if you fail to keep up with the micromanagement needed (unless you're using Naramon).

I really genuinely believe Blood Rush and Weeping Wounds need to just be deleted from the game, or made to only apply to heavy attacks. Buff up the base light attack damage if needed, but those mods have to go. If you remove Blood Rush and Weeping Wounds, suddenly melee won't seem so overpowered anymore, and yet will feel better to play.

The critical chance mods applying double to heavy attacks should probably be removed as well.

[(PSN)dday3six]

11 minutes ago, Corvid said:

They used whatever tools were needed to get the job done. If an automatic weapon or a bomb was the best way to do it, they likely would.

In reference to Ninja, and what they used: The most accurate way to describe Ninja would be as insurgents or guerrillas who specialized in unconventional warfare out of necessity. So ‘best’ would be constrained by availability. Not so much as what ordnance or weapon’s systems did or didn’t exist in a given time period, but rather what an individual would have ready access to.

[Loza03]

25 minutes ago, SteveCutler said:

I'm in the nerf melee camp. I think part of the reason why melee is so overpowered in the first place, is due to the existence of Blood Rush and Weeping Wounds. Not only do these mods make melee overpowered, but also less fun to play.

The light and heavy attack system was obviously designed and intended to be used in a way where you mix both light attacks and heavy attacks, using light attacks most of the time and being rewarded with a free heavy attack every now and then. Instead, players build exclusively for either light attacks or heavy attacks. The reason why players would build exclusively for light attacks is because of Blood Rush and Weeping Wounds, which are the only remaining ways to benefit from the combo counter with light attacks. Because we get such a ridiculous crit chance and status chance bonus, we never want to perform heavy attacks as we would lose DPS by doing so. This also causes player stress, as there's the constant fear of losing the entire combo if you fail to keep up with the micromanagement needed (unless you're using Naramon).

I really genuinely believe Blood Rush and Weeping Wounds need to just be deleted from the game, or made to only apply to heavy attacks. Buff up the base light attack damage if needed, but those mods have to go. If you remove Blood Rush and Weeping Wounds, suddenly melee won't seem so overpowered anymore, and yet will feel better to play.

The critical chance mods applying double to heavy attacks should probably be removed as well.

Agreed. Crit applying twice to Heavies was in direct response, attempting to make heavy attacks more worthwhile.

Scaling mods do not serve a valuable purpose anymore.

[(PSN)dday3six]

22 minutes ago, SteveCutler said:

I'm in the nerf melee camp. I think part of the reason why melee is so overpowered in the first place, is due to the existence of Blood Rush and Weeping Wounds. Not only do these mods make melee overpowered, but also less fun to play.

The light and heavy attack system was obviously designed and intended to be used in a way where you mix both light attacks and heavy attacks, using light attacks most of the time and being rewarded with a free heavy attack every now and then. Instead, players build exclusively for either light attacks or heavy attacks. The reason why players would build exclusively for light attacks is because of Blood Rush and Weeping Wounds, which are the only remaining ways to benefit from the combo counter with light attacks. Because we get such a ridiculous crit chance and status chance bonus, we never want to perform heavy attacks as we would lose DPS by doing so. This also causes player stress, as there's the constant fear of losing the entire combo if you fail to keep up with the micromanagement needed (unless you're using Naramon).

I really genuinely believe Blood Rush and Weeping Wounds need to just be deleted from the game, or made to only apply to heavy attacks. Buff up the base light attack damage if needed, but those mods have to go. If you remove Blood Rush and Weeping Wounds, suddenly melee won't seem so overpowered anymore, and yet will feel better to play.

The critical chance mods applying double to heavy attacks should probably be removed as well.

Ultimately how does this help though? Nerfing melee output does not erase the issues plaguing firearms currently. Also fun is not one dimensional. Some people derive fun from killing mobs efficiently. 

[KittySkin]

32 minutes ago, SteveCutler said:

I'm in the nerf melee camp. I think part of the reason why melee is so overpowered in the first place, is due to the existence of Blood Rush and Weeping Wounds. Not only do these mods make melee overpowered, but also less fun to play.

The light and heavy attack system was obviously designed and intended to be used in a way where you mix both light attacks and heavy attacks, using light attacks most of the time and being rewarded with a free heavy attack every now and then. Instead, players build exclusively for either light attacks or heavy attacks. The reason why players would build exclusively for light attacks is because of Blood Rush and Weeping Wounds, which are the only remaining ways to benefit from the combo counter with light attacks. Because we get such a ridiculous crit chance and status chance bonus, we never want to perform heavy attacks as we would lose DPS by doing so. This also causes player stress, as there's the constant fear of losing the entire combo if you fail to keep up with the micromanagement needed (unless you're using Naramon).

I really genuinely believe Blood Rush and Weeping Wounds need to just be deleted from the game, or made to only apply to heavy attacks. Buff up the base light attack damage if needed, but those mods have to go. If you remove Blood Rush and Weeping Wounds, suddenly melee won't seem so overpowered anymore, and yet will feel better to play.

The critical chance mods applying double to heavy attacks should probably be removed as well.

This. Removing those 2 mods alone will nerf melee A LOT. Both of them are super narrowed in the gameplay they provide, since the combo counter its also high. If we capped at 4x, then be it, losing combo wouldnt be as bad and the DPS as high, but at 12x cap... Its overly broken.

[Dunkelheit]

vor einer Stunde schrieb (PSN)Wil_Shatner_face:

?? What? You said some primaries outshine melee but you can’t name any? Probably because that statement is just false.

It is false and we all know it.

Try using a gun in SP  and tell me that it is better than melee. Even the strongest ranged weapons are bad in SP. As long as I use melee, I barely need to stop to kill something.

And btw, guns were the far, far, far (imagine 1000x "far") better than melee when the game started. Melee was absolutely useless back then. Then slowly, but surely, they grew to the weapons they are now. I think the game would be better if melee could not kill everything, but everyone needed to rely on armor/shield strip from frames.

On the other side, I like the game how it is now, very much. It is just fun to murder the denizens of the enemy in the hundreds :)

[(PSN)dday3six]

4 minutes ago, KittySkin said:

This. Removing those 2 mods alone will nerf melee A LOT. Both of them are super narrowed in the gameplay they provide, since the combo counter its also high. If we capped at 4x, then be it, losing combo wouldnt be as bad and the DPS as high, but at 12x cap... Its overly broken.

Seems to be a common line of thought. So to simplify but in the end re-ask. How does making cheetahs slower suddenly make sloths faster? 

Nerfing melee doesn’t alter the actual output of firearms. It only halts the top end without addressing the underlying issues of scaling damage.  If you want melee nerfed be honest, but don’t pretend as if it suddenly somehow results in primary and secondary weapons having better damage output. 

[Surbusken]

You will always find someone who dislikes whatever you like. Neither opinion is necessarily wrong, people can like and want whatever they feel llike.

If you wanted the game to be a 100% stealth game so what, you can't argue with what people like or that they don't have the right of having their own preferences. It's a messed up mentality going to war over other people having an opinion.

What you can't argue is there are a few items at the top, both frames and weapons marginalizing everything else in the game.

You also can't argue developers have a very real monetary reason to interchange power creep items depending on what they want to sell.

From my perspective it makes a lot more sense to make every weapon and frame popular. Though I don't stress it because it's their own work and content they are crapping on.

It's also a question of competence and amount of work. They might simply not be able or fear they will break the game even worse if they try.

Khora's whipclaw fix as an example. Imagine that exponentially, with wide reaching consequences across all frames and weapons.

[(PSN)dday3six]

13 minutes ago, Dunkelheit said:

It is false and we all know it.

Try using a gun in SP  and tell me that it is better than melee. Even the strongest ranged weapons are bad in SP. As long as I use melee, I barely need to stop to kill something.

And btw, guns were the far, far, far (imagine 1000x "far") better than melee when the game started. Melee was absolutely useless back then. Then slowly, but surely, they grew to the weapons they are now. I think the game would be better if melee could not kill everything, but everyone needed to rely on armor/shield strip from frames.

On the other side, I like the game how it is now, very much. It is just fun to murder the denizens of the enemy in the hundreds :)

Depends...

Deep in SP Endurance firearms are mostly utility. Just clearing dailies, star chart, etc. They are not as effective but still perfectly useable.

[Danielw8]

37 minutes ago, Dunkelheit said:

It is false and we all know it.

Try using a gun in SP  and tell me that it is better than melee. Even the strongest ranged weapons are bad in SP. As long as I use melee, I barely need to stop to kill something.

And btw, guns were the far, far, far (imagine 1000x "far") better than melee when the game started. Melee was absolutely useless back then. Then slowly, but surely, they grew to the weapons they are now. I think the game would be better if melee could not kill everything, but everyone needed to rely on armor/shield strip from frames.

On the other side, I like the game how it is now, very much. It is just fun to murder the denizens of the enemy in the hundreds :)

you can use guns... just an example what i like and what i tried: opticor vandal, phage, kuva quartakk, kuva bramma prob cernos (with rivens)

for example with kuva kohm + roar i can kill lvl 5k really fast

Kuva hind with 2 burst can kill lvlcap corrupted enemies without roar/faction mods  (non steel path)

Im not saying melee are not op, im just saying weapons are viable requires more formas, rivens and probly buffs/armor strip, but for example lvl 200 steel path? you are super fine

The power of melee come when you have 9m range, and you have ultra high attack speed, and you multiproc slash for free with bonification because melee have stances, without limit/stop its not only condition overload, blood rush and weeping wounds (also they are broken)

hard to balance honestly, i think melee need 30% nerf and weapons 30% buff

PD: In the other hand they nerf catchmoon so bad and meanwhile we have stropha the catchmoon 2.0 hitting by 1 million without rivens just using heavy attack builds (without scaling damage)

PD2: Catchmoon still viable with buffs

 

[Dunkelheit]

vor 3 Minuten schrieb Danielw8:

you can use guns... just an example what i like and what i tried: opticor vandal, phage, kuva quartakk, kuva bramma prob cernos (with rivens)

for example with kuva kohm + roar i can kill lvl 5k really fast

Kuva hind with 2 burst can kill lvlcap corrupted enemies without roar/faction mods  (non steel path)

Im not saying melee are not op, im just saying weapons are viable requires more formas, rivens and probly buffs/armor strip, but for example lvl 200 steel path? you are super fine

The power of melee come when you have 9m range, and you have ultra high attack speed, and you multiproc slash for free with bonification because melee have stances, without limit/stop its not only condition overload, blood rush and weeping wounds (also they are broken)

hard to balance honestly, i think melee need 30% nerf and weapons 30% buff

 

Yeah, give me a spoon and I can level Mount Everest, just not that fast.

Same goes for weapons. Sure you can kill any enemy in the game, with armor strip, anything is possible. But if you want to, we can both clear an exterminate in lvl 200 SP. Who might be done faster? You with your Hind or Kohm or me with Kronen Prime (assuming we both use no armor strip and no rivens)? In addition, I can do it with 95% of all melee weapons, but 95% of the guns will take a lot of time in SP 200+, even excellent weapons like the acceltra. You also need to spec for ammo recovery or you will run out of bullets fast with most weapons.

I mean everything you said is not wrong, but you did not see my point.

I would like to add that a numbers buff/nerf is not enough here, you need a systemic change. Weeping Wounds, CO, Blood Rush are just crazy mods. With the ability to keep counter up to 12x easily for the whole game, these mods are just too strong

[Danielw8]

 

32 minutes ago, Dunkelheit said:

Yeah, give me a spoon and I can level Mount Everest, just not that fast.

Same goes for weapons. Sure you can kill any enemy in the game, with armor strip, anything is possible. But if you want to, we can both clear an exterminate in lvl 200 SP. Who might be done faster? You with your Hind or Kohm or me with Kronen Prime (assuming we both use no armor strip and no rivens)? In addition, I can do it with 95% of all melee weapons, but 95% of the guns will take a lot of time in SP 200+, even excellent weapons like the acceltra. You also need to spec for ammo recovery or you will run out of bullets fast with most weapons.

I mean everything you said is not wrong, but you did not see my point.

I would like to add that a numbers buff/nerf is not enough here, you need a systemic change. Weeping Wounds, CO, Blood Rush are just crazy mods. With the ability to keep counter up to 12x easily for the whole game, these mods are just too strong

Please read my answer again

[vegetosayajin]

6 minutes ago, Dunkelheit said:

Who might be done faster?

No matter the rivens or anything by the time you kill one enemy with a primary you would have killed 20-30 with melee on high levels.
And for the argument(that is stupid) that endurance is not indicative of the game and nothing should be judged by it - it's simply not true, it's a testing ground for the best way and tool do to the job quicker then anything else and it translates to low level the same way(in most cases that is).
So the point "the game is not endurance bla bla" is totally false when discussing weapon or frame balance (I think that was that bronze guy's argument in some video).
The fact rn is that primaries and secondaries are just for fun and in itself there is nothing wrong with that, but they can be fun and powerful at the same time.

[(PSN)dday3six]

44 minutes ago, Dunkelheit said:

Yeah, give me a spoon and I can level Mount Everest, just not that fast.

Same goes for weapons. Sure you can kill any enemy in the game, with armor strip, anything is possible. But if you want to, we can both clear an exterminate in lvl 200 SP. Who might be done faster? You with your Hind or Kohm or me with Kronen Prime (assuming we both use no armor strip and no rivens)? In addition, I can do it with 95% of all melee weapons, but 95% of the guns will take a lot of time in SP 200+, even excellent weapons like the acceltra. You also need to spec for ammo recovery or you will run out of bullets fast with most weapons.

I mean everything you said is not wrong, but you did not see my point.

I would like to add that a numbers buff/nerf is not enough here, you need a systemic change. Weeping Wounds, CO, Blood Rush are just crazy mods. With the ability to keep counter up to 12x easily for the whole game, these mods are just too strong

I grasp the notion, but 95% is hyperbole. I didn’t bother to fully calculate it but I’ll wager 25% or less.

No Armor strip means no Corrosive or Heat on those weapons. No rivens further limits space. You’ll need high enough slash, status, and crit since you be using Viral and prox to by pass armor. 

Honestly too, I think you’re very much underestimating how good Slash/Viral is. With the Acceltra for example you don’t spam it you let the prox finish mobs off. 

[(PSN)Wil_Shatner_face]

58 minutes ago, vegetosayajin said:

And for the argument(that is stupid) that endurance is not indicative of the game and nothing should be judged by it - it's simply not true, it's a testing ground for the best way and tool do to the job quicker then anything else and it translates to low level the same way(in most cases that is).

Well this just isn’t true. Guns are perfectly viable in low levels which invalidates your last sentence.

Guns are good in just about every piece of relevant content except for Steel Path. And I know DE said the game would never be balanced around SP, but I think they should reconsider that stance to make the game mode more fun.

[vegetosayajin]

2 minutes ago, (PSN)Wil_Shatner_face said:

Well this just isn’t true. Guns are perfectly viable in low levels which invalidates your last sentence.

Yes, also bullet jumping can kill enemies. You don't seem to get the point, everything can kill low level content and melee even there will be the better choice(even more prominent now after the glaive rework when you don't even need an aoe weapon anymore). Even on low level content melee is still the better pick, that's why primaries and secondaries need a gigantic buff.

[KittySkin]

2 hours ago, (PSN)dday3six said:

Seems to be a common line of thought. So to simplify but in the end re-ask. How does making cheetahs slower suddenly make sloths faster? 

Nerfing melee doesn’t alter the actual output of firearms. It only halts the top end without addressing the underlying issues of scaling damage.  If you want melee nerfed be honest, but don’t pretend as if it suddenly somehow results in primary and secondary weapons having better damage output. 

You cant adress something by always pumping the numbers. If that worked, diablo 3 wouldnt be the balance mess it is.

First you need to streamline the general damage output of players, and then tailor enemies to said damage. Firearms does a great job, unless facing S#&$loads of armor and other stuff that its way off the charts, melee weapons are not "where they belong and firearms are underperforming", melee weapons are overperforming. If after streamlining damage on all weapon classes you need to change something, then be it, but current melee combo system its not healty, it rewards lack of variety and avoiding using all your tools instead of rewarding using them.

Adding a similar mod or combo system on firearms wont fix a thing, will just exacervate the issue even further.

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

3 hours ago, SteveCutler said:

I'm in the nerf melee camp. I think part of the reason why melee is so overpowered in the first place, is due to the existence of Blood Rush and Weeping Wounds. Not only do these mods make melee overpowered, but also less fun to play.

The light and heavy attack system was obviously designed and intended to be used in a way where you mix both light attacks and heavy attacks, using light attacks most of the time and being rewarded with a free heavy attack every now and then. Instead, players build exclusively for either light attacks or heavy attacks. The reason why players would build exclusively for light attacks is because of Blood Rush and Weeping Wounds, which are the only remaining ways to benefit from the combo counter with light attacks. Because we get such a ridiculous crit chance and status chance bonus, we never want to perform heavy attacks as we would lose DPS by doing so. This also causes player stress, as there's the constant fear of losing the entire combo if you fail to keep up with the micromanagement needed (unless you're using Naramon).

I really genuinely believe Blood Rush and Weeping Wounds need to just be deleted from the game, or made to only apply to heavy attacks. Buff up the base light attack damage if needed, but those mods have to go. If you remove Blood Rush and Weeping Wounds, suddenly melee won't seem so overpowered anymore, and yet will feel better to play.

The critical chance mods applying double to heavy attacks should probably be removed as well.

So there's 2 separate arguments, apparently. Wanting to nerf melee for no reason, then the actual rational people that want some lower performing weapons to be buffed. 

How does nerfing melee buff lower performing weapons? If no adjustments are made to lower performing weapons, how does touching a completely unrelated area make those weapons stronger? 

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

44 minutes ago, vegetosayajin said:

Yes, also bullet jumping can kill enemies. You don't seem to get the point, everything can kill low level content and melee even there will be the better choice(even more prominent now after the glaive rework when you don't even need an aoe weapon anymore). Even on low level content melee is still the better pick, that's why primaries and secondaries need a gigantic buff.

Guns are the better pick for low level enemies, so that's not entirely correct. People want to kill steel path enemies with primaries and secondaries easier. No one even cares about low level enemies, as they can be killed easily by anything. 

You still need range for melee which means Primed reach and a range riven. That's what makes melee great. I don't want to bullet jump or void dash right up the face of every group of enemies.

For low level enemies all I have to do is grab a weapon with a large magazine to spray with my eyes closed, or grab an aoe primary ot secondary and wipe groups from 20m away with sprint mods.

[SteveCutler]

11 minutes ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

Wanting to nerf melee for no reason

I stated the reasoning in my post. Not only would it bring melee more in-line with guns (i.e. balancing), but it would also make melee feel better (i.e. improving gameplay). This was already explained in my post.

11 minutes ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

How does nerfing melee buff lower performing weapons?

I never claimed that it would.

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

1 minute ago, SteveCutler said:

I stated the reasoning in my post. Not only would it bring melee more in-line with guns (i.e. balancing), but it would also make melee feel better (i.e. improving gameplay). This was already explained in my post.

I never claimed that it would.

You don't really decide what feels better for the entire gaming population. 

[SteveCutler]

1 minute ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

You don't really decide what feels better for the entire gaming population. 

Sure, and neither do you. I never claimed that I speak for everyone. I gave my opinion about what would improve the game, along with the thought and reasoning behind it. Ultimately, someone has to decide what's best for the game, and that will be DE.

I haven't read through the entire thread, but at least in your most recent posts, I haven't seen any reasoning from you, but rather just shooting down opinions with no counter-argument.

[CephalonCarnage]

23 minutes ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

You still need range for melee which means Primed reach and a range riven. That's what makes melee great. I don't want to bullet jump or void dash right up the face of every group of enemies.

No, it seems you want the fabulous power of melee in a ranged attack :) Which is fair, because its what everyone wants - kill everything with no effort. A crazy few want gameplay though, silly people that they are.