"Melee Good, Gun Bad."

[CephalonCarnage]

Nerfing melee makes a better choice than buffing ranged. Simply because the problem is those overpowered meta mods, buffing ranged will mean something similar is added. And then we'd have the same problem, twice over!

Nerfing melee to bring it in line with ranged weaponry makes sense - remove the stupid mods and things start to settle down. If this nerf is a problem fr the playerbase, then it should also be combined with a nerf to SP enemies. Trying to make things fair and fun is more important than simply adding more and more numbers to things. That way lies madness - a ranged weapon mod that does 12x damage if you shoot whilst jumping up and down would not make the game any better.

These crazy inflated number mods need to go completely, and that probably means a rebalance of all damage and enemy resistances too. No more insane armour scaling, no more invulnerabilities, no more reductions based on DPS.

[Kaggelos]

Personally i'd suggest having some elite units that are really dangerous af in close range, similar to liches. And also give us primed gun mods, its about time. ALso a good credit and endo sink, im swimming in those xD

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

23 minutes ago, SteveCutler said:

Sure, and neither do you. I never claimed that I speak for everyone. I gave my opinion about what would improve the game, along with the thought and reasoning behind it. Ultimately, someone has to decide what's best for the game, and that will be DE.

I haven't read through the entire thread, but at least in your most recent posts, I haven't seen any reasoning from you, but rather just shooting down opinions with no counter-argument.

Ok, maybe try taking another copy of your condition overload, weeping wounds, bloodrush, and any other mods you feel are too strong, and rank them up to level 2.....instead of max.

That's an immediate solution to your own problem.

If you get bored fighting level 40 plebs, and decide you want to try Steel path and you feel you need a slight bump in damage....here we go...gasp...rank your mods up to level 3! Whooaaaa

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

13 minutes ago, gbjbaanb said:

Nerfing melee makes a better choice than buffing ranged. Simply because the problem is those overpowered meta mods, buffing ranged will mean something similar is added. And then we'd have the same problem, twice over!

Nerfing melee to bring it in line with ranged weaponry makes sense - remove the stupid mods and things start to settle down. If this nerf is a problem fr the playerbase, then it should also be combined with a nerf to SP enemies. Trying to make things fair and fun is more important than simply adding more and more numbers to things. That way lies madness - a ranged weapon mod that does 12x damage if you shoot whilst jumping up and down would not make the game any better.

These crazy inflated number mods need to go completely, and that probably means a rebalance of all damage and enemy resistances too. No more insane armour scaling, no more invulnerabilities, no more reductions based on DPS.

Enemies were already nerfed. Nice try though. My akzani hits higher level enemies for 1 point of damage. This has nothing to to with melee now, does it? 

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

19 minutes ago, gbjbaanb said:

No, it seems you want the fabulous power of melee in a ranged attack :) Which is fair, because its what everyone wants - kill everything with no effort. A crazy few want gameplay though, silly people that they are.

Nice...so you're saying I should be closer to enemies to melee....therefore exposing me to enemy grab attacks and other dangers, therefore continuing the obvious mechanic of melee being able to do more damage due to higher risk. Cool.

[CephalonCarnage]

3 minutes ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

therefore continuing the obvious mechanic of melee being able to do more damage due to higher risk

there is no higher risk of melee. You have so many advantages - not least that you're no longer standing around for lots of enemies to hit you. Try reading the whole thread, this has already been gone over.

 

And if your akzani prime does 1point of damage, you are agreeing that the whole system is broken. Making that akzani do 10x damage is not fixing anything.

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

19 minutes ago, gbjbaanb said:

there is no higher risk of melee. You have so many advantages - not least that you're no longer standing around for lots of enemies to hit you. Try reading the whole thread, this has already been gone over.

 

And if your akzani prime does 1point of damage, you are agreeing that the whole system is broken. Making that akzani do 10x damage is not fixing anything.

"Not only does the Ancient Disruptor possess an aura that allows its nearby allies to drain Warframe energy with each attack, their own melee attacks have a 10% chance of dealing 
 Magnetic proc on players, draining the player's Warframe energy over the duration of the proc and temporarily reducing shields.

An Infested heavy melee unit, the Ancient Healer stands out for the ability to cast a damage mitigation aura around surrounding allies.

The link range to other enemies is ten meters

Energy Leech/Parasitic units are capable of draining players' energy within 15 meters at the rate of 5s−1

Shock Eximus units project an aura that increases allies' resistance to 
 Electricity and 
 Magnetic damage by 50%. On enemies, it reduces resistance to 
 Electricity and 
 Magnetic damage by 50%. They also emit an 
 Electricity status effect aura that affects all enemies within a 5 meter radius – players within a 2 meter radius will take damage at a steady rate. 

. On enemies, it reduces resistance to 
 Toxin damage by 50%. They emit a potent toxin aura in a 10 meter range. When inflicted, an 8 second 
 Toxin proc will persist and deal moderate damage over time, depending on the level of the enemy which inflicted the proc. 

To counter its ineffectiveness at range, the Nox can charge forward, causing all in his path to be knocked down as well as allowing him to close the distance for his gun to be more effective. They only do this as a last resort, however, once their glass helmets are destroyed.

Combined with the ability to emit a constant 3-m aura of 
 Toxin damage when the helmet is broken, the charge allows the Nox to knock down Tenno, then deal damage directly to their health."

So should I keep going? Or are you going to ignore basic common sense mechanics that get progressively more dangerous the higher in level you go?

 

[ShogunGunshow]

I mean, content creators are finally just saying what most of us have known for a while, now: melee is totally busted, mostly thanks to their bevy of multiplicative bonuses that come from mods like BR, CO, etc. Whether it's a nerf to them or the introduction of new multiplicative mods for guns, something needs to be done to reign in the melee dominance - and I say this as someone that has primarily used melee weapons their entire play time.

Status probably also needs yet another rework to promote use of semi-autos, but one thing at a time.

[CephalonCarnage]

2 minutes ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

"Not only does the Ancient Disruptor possess an aura that allows its nearby allies to drain Warframe energy with each attack, their own melee attacks have a 10% chance of dealing 
 Magnetic proc on players, draining the player's Warframe energy over the duration of the proc and temporarily reducing shields.

An Infested heavy melee unit, the Ancient Healer stands out for the ability to cast a damage mitigation aura around surrounding allies.

The link range to other enemies is ten meters

Energy Leech/Parasitic units are capable of draining players' energy within 15 meters at the rate of 5s−1

Shock Eximus units project an aura that increases allies' resistance to 
 Electricity and 
 Magnetic damage by 50%. On enemies, it reduces resistance to 
 Electricity and 
 Magnetic damage by 50%. They also emit an 
 Electricity status effect aura that affects all enemies within a 5 meter radius – players within a 2 meter radius will take damage at a steady rate. 

. On enemies, it reduces resistance to 
 Toxin damage by 50%. They emit a potent toxin aura in a 10 meter range. When inflicted, an 8 second 
 Toxin proc will persist and deal moderate damage over time, depending on the level of the enemy which inflicted the proc. 

To counter its ineffectiveness at range, the Nox can charge forward, causing all in his path to be knocked down as well as allowing him to close the distance for his gun to be more effective. They only do this as a last resort, however, once their glass helmets are destroyed.

Combined with the ability to emit a constant 3-m aura of 
 Toxin damage when the helmet is broken, the charge allows the Nox to knock down Tenno, then deal damage directly to their health."

So should I keep going? Or are you going to ignore basic common sense mechanics that get progressively more dangerous the higher in level you go?

 

2 high level enemies you should avoid. That convieniently forgets to mention the ranged attacks of theese that can hook you, knock you over and pull you towards them. That doesn't occur when in melee range.

And Nox that can hurt you - if it gets to charge at you. Again something that only occurs if you're not in melee distance. Thus you are at greater risk from these enemies when standing at range. Risk/reward of melee is significantly lower than than ranged!

So, no perhaps you should not keep going as your hole will soon be so deep you'll need a ladder to get out.

[Aldain]

4 minutes ago, ShogunGunshow said:

introduction of new multiplicative mods for guns

FOR THE LOVE OF GOD NO.

Enough with the damn multiplication spam on every damn calculation in the game, it already has bloated things to obnoxious levels we don't need more of it.

The numbers of Warframe are already hysterically insane, we don't need more 2 billion damage red crits, honestly we need to make crits a "Yes/No" thing with a single multiplier and not this insane "Yellow/Orange/Red" nonsense that makes bloated DR sponges and immunity to everything short of crits a thing.

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

4 minutes ago, gbjbaanb said:

2 high level enemies you should avoid. That convieniently forgets to mention the ranged attacks of theese that can hook you, knock you over and pull you towards them. That doesn't occur when in melee range.

And Nox that can hurt you - if it gets to charge at you. Again something that only occurs if you're not in melee distance. Thus you are at greater risk from these enemies when standing at range. Risk/reward of melee is significantly lower than than ranged!

So, no perhaps you should not keep going as your hole will soon be so deep you'll need a ladder to get out.

There are hundreds of cubby holes and deep hallways that can be used to funnel enemies into and shoot at them with significantly less danger. 

If you haven't heard, DE even had to alter enemy AI on a tileset because people took it to the extreme and used a place to farm essence for kuva before the Steel path changes.

[(PSN)Wil_Shatner_face]

2 hours ago, vegetosayajin said:

Yes, also bullet jumping can kill enemies. You don't seem to get the point, everything can kill low level content and melee even there will be the better choice(even more prominent now after the glaive rework when you don't even need an aoe weapon anymore). Even on low level content melee is still the better pick, that's why primaries and secondaries need a gigantic buff.

No, the difference between ranged and melee at low levels is negligible. I would actually argue that guns are slightly better at star chart levels, but again it’s negligible so who cares?

Primaries and secondaries are great options for everything up to and including Arbitrations. I just think primaries and secondaries should also be viable in Steel Path. Whether DE gets there by buffing guns or by nerfing enemies and melee, I personally do not care.

[Tiltskillet]

8 hours ago, MqToasty said:

Fair enough.  I can see myself being turned off by this game (or avoid some content altogether) if melee were mostly useless like in many other shooters.  We all have different preferences, and it is only natural to want more content that caters to the playstyle we prefer.

Don't get me wrong, I gravitate toward melee in every game it's available, and have made a lifelong habit of trying to shoehorn classes designed for range into wack melee builds.  And while it's got plenty of flaws, overall I really enjoy melee in this game.  I'd be more unhappy if melee got nerfed and ranged got buffed in such a way that the situation in high level content was exactly reversed.

 

[Loza03]

4 hours ago, (PSN)dday3six said:

Ultimately how does this help though? Nerfing melee output does not erase the issues plaguing firearms currently. Also fun is not one dimensional. Some people derive fun from killing mobs efficiently. 

Why nerf not buff: Because you'd need to buff everything as opposed to nerfing one thing. In fact, you'd actually only really need to nerf one or two parts of melee, since Melee's baseline performance is frankly just fine.

Why it helps firearms: firearms, whilst not entirely OK, are only damage-wise out of proportion due soley to melee. They definitely have their own issues (for example, weapon switch speed encourages only using one gun the whole way through the mission), but in terms of damage, they're frankly alright.

Fun is subjective: Some people do derive fun from killing mobs efficiently, but at the moment, the two are mutually exclusive because melee is just that much more effective. That means that 'tough' enemies need to be designed with Melee's damage output and abilities, meaning that people who like to zip around and use acrobatics, or shoot guns, or generally not use the meta strategies get slowly designed out of new content. Steel Path and launch Railjack ground troops were major examples of this. Nerfing melee and having both be roughly in propotion to each other means that more playstyles can be catered to.

[(PSN)dday3six]

4 hours ago, KittySkin said:

You cant adress something by always pumping the numbers. If that worked, diablo 3 wouldnt be the balance mess it is.

First you need to streamline the general damage output of players, and then tailor enemies to said damage. Firearms does a great job, unless facing S#&$loads of armor and other stuff that its way off the charts, melee weapons are not "where they belong and firearms are underperforming", melee weapons are overperforming. If after streamlining damage on all weapon classes you need to change something, then be it, but current melee combo system its not healty, it rewards lack of variety and avoiding using all your tools instead of rewarding using them.

Adding a similar mod or combo system on firearms wont fix a thing, will just exacervate the issue even further.

D3 is D3 and Warframe is Warframe. Just because stats and damage numbers exist in both doesn't mean they are so directly comparable. They're both trying to accomplish different things in wildly differing environments. It's apples and oranges. 

It's NOT melee weapons in general that are overperforming. It's a handful of select melee weapons at the top which potentially are. Melee weapons stat'd with high crit, status, and slash are the presumed culprits. There is a wide berth between the Kronen Prime and the Bo for instance. Due to the former's triple threat of stats it's able to best utilize Viral stacks and Bleed or Toxin prox, while the latter lacks Slash completely, and has lower critical chance. This is an important part of the equation and it seems to be glossed over often. It's of particular import to note that when comparing ranged vs melee weapons you need to compare weapons that are roughly in the same tier as well. 

I know that players don't enjoy having their builds or play ragged on, but time and time again I find people are not using good builds on their primary and secondary weapons. They use the incorrect elements. Forgo Bane, Cleanse, and Expel mods. Slap Heavy Caliber on everything. They don't headshot (which has a 4x multiplier, btw) so Argon Scope and Laser Sight might as well not exist. So, while this doesn't make up for all the difference in melee's DPS. I have encountered that many people are also artificially widening the gap via user error. Outside of Endurance runs even in Steel Path when firearms are built and used correctly they continue to perform for the content most players do. 

Weapons will form a meta as long as stat difference persist, but if everything was the same then it's just a choice of blaster color and weapon model. Let's also not neglect to acknowledge that secondary mods are more robust than primary mods. Then rifle mods are better generally speaking than shotgun mods. An issue that nerfing melee's output will not address in the slightest. I am not wholly against the gap between firearms and melee being shrunk. There are many issues that exist with firearms which are independent of melee's top output, and continue to be overlooked in the discussion. 

You need to define variety more explicitly. Are you talking about all weapons being equal? Because filler and master fodder are always going to exist, they need to in fact. Not just new players, but players in general need access to reasonable weapons, but also the carrot of better weapons awaiting them along the road of progression. 

As to not using all your tools. Even after melee eclipses the output of ranged weapons, said weapons take on the role of utility. function to disable bubbles, proc status effects, and group mobs. Weapons such as the Miter, Ferrox, Proboscis Cernos and the ever present Kuva Nukor as still used rather than melee only. Frankly it seems as if players often forget that they can group enemy mobs, Viral them up, and then unload their primaries into them similar as they would with melee to extend the life of a primaries DPS. In the vein of using all the tools. Synth pet mods, and other reload weapon while holstered mods are pretty mainstay, or at least the should be considering that they reload weapons while you melee. 

 

[(PSN)dday3six]

4 hours ago, Loza03 said:

Why nerf not buff: Because you'd need to buff everything as opposed to nerfing one thing. In fact, you'd actually only really need to nerf one or two parts of melee, since Melee's baseline performance is frankly just fine.

Why it helps firearms: firearms, whilst not entirely OK, are only damage-wise out of proportion due soley to melee. They definitely have their own issues (for example, weapon switch speed encourages only using one gun the whole way through the mission), but in terms of damage, they're frankly alright.

Fun is subjective: Some people do derive fun from killing mobs efficiently, but at the moment, the two are mutually exclusive because melee is just that much more effective. That means that 'tough' enemies need to be designed with Melee's damage output and abilities, meaning that people who like to zip around and use acrobatics, or shoot guns, or generally not use the meta strategies get slowly designed out of new content. Steel Path and launch Railjack ground troops were major examples of this. Nerfing melee and having both be roughly in propotion to each other means that more playstyles can be catered to.

Everything? No...

Stop delineating the utterly false pretense that any melee weapon automatically outclasses all ranged ones in every situation.

As I stated previously it's only a few melees that truly rise so high above the rest due to high crit, status, and slash values.

DE could buff the critical chance some of the higher tier ranged weapons so more could hit over 100% and buff proc chance of Hunter Munitions to 50%. Then suddenly the gap between the highest ends of melee and range is lessened dramatically.

 

[KittySkin]

35 minutes ago, (PSN)dday3six said:

D3 is D3 and Warframe is Warframe. Just because stats and damage numbers exist in both doesn't mean they are so directly comparable. They're both trying to accomplish different things in wildly differing environments. It's apples and oranges. 

It's NOT melee weapons in general that are overperforming. It's a handful of select melee weapons at the top which potentially are. Melee weapons stat'd with high crit, status, and slash are the presumed culprits. There is a wide berth between the Kronen Prime and the Bo for instance. Due to the former's triple threat of stats it's able to best utilize Viral stacks and Bleed or Toxin prox, while the latter lacks Slash completely, and has lower critical chance. This is an important part of the equation and it seems to be glossed over often. It's of particular import to note that when comparing ranged vs melee weapons you need to compare weapons that are roughly in the same tier as well. 

I know that players don't enjoy having their builds or play ragged on, but time and time again I find people are not using good builds on their primary and secondary weapons. They use the incorrect elements. Forgo Bane, Cleanse, and Expel mods. Slap Heavy Caliber on everything. They don't headshot (which has a 4x multiplier, btw) so Argon Scope and Laser Sight might as well not exist. So, while this doesn't make up for all the difference in melee's DPS. I have encountered that many people are also artificially widening the gap via user error. Outside of Endurance runs even in Steel Path when firearms are built and used correctly they continue to perform for the content most players do. 

Weapons will form a meta as long as stat difference persist, but if everything was the same then it's just a choice of blaster color and weapon model. Let's also not neglect to acknowledge that secondary mods are more robust than primary mods. Then rifle mods are better generally speaking than shotgun mods. An issue that nerfing melee's output will not address in the slightest. I am not wholly against the gap between firearms and melee being shrunk. There are many issues that exist with firearms which are independent of melee's top output, and continue to be overlooked in the discussion. 

You need to define variety more explicitly. Are you talking about all weapons being equal? Because filler and master fodder are always going to exist, they need to in fact. Not just new players, but players in general need access to reasonable weapons, but also the carrot of better weapons awaiting them along the road of progression. 

As to not using all your tools. Even after melee eclipses the output of ranged weapons, said weapons take on the role of utility. function to disable bubbles, proc status effects, and group mobs. Weapons such as the Miter, Ferrox, Proboscis Cernos and the ever present Kuva Nukor as still used rather than melee only. Frankly it seems as if players often forget that they can group enemy mobs, Viral them up, and then unload their primaries into them similar as they would with melee to extend the life of a primaries DPS. In the vein of using all the tools. Synth pet mods, and other reload weapon while holstered mods are pretty mainstay, or at least the should be considering that they reload weapons while you melee. 

 

Im sorry to say, but most primary weapons dont have a place for argon scope, for example, since for that they need to remove any of the other mandatory mods. 

I use primary and secondary weapons a lot, but theres no place where an assault rifle will ein against melee or an AOE bow, because how the game its designed, you use it to break bubbles and thats all. 

Unless slash procs gets balanced and enemy armor tunned, the viable weapons end up being VERY narrowed, and thats where melee win the most. Lots of forced procs

[(PSN)dday3six]

18 minutes ago, KittySkin said:

Im sorry to say, but most primary weapons dont have a place for argon scope, for example, since for that they need to remove any of the other mandatory mods. 

I use primary and secondary weapons a lot, but theres no place where an assault rifle will ein against melee or an AOE bow, because how the game its designed, you use it to break bubbles and thats all. 

Unless slash procs gets balanced and enemy armor tunned, the viable weapons end up being VERY narrowed, and thats where melee win the most. Lots of forced procs

Argon Scope is mostly the generic for Primed Bane mods for quick and easy non-Endurance runs on some weapons. The point was more about headshots and the misuse of Heavy Cal since 4x is greater than 1.55x. 

Ignis Wraith, Amprex, Acceltra, Trumna, Kuva Tonkor, Kuva Ogris, Opticor Vandal, Supra Vandal, Kuva Hind, Kuva Quartakk, Fulmin, Kuva Chakkhurr, Stahlta are classified as ARs, and each could 'win' against melee or an AOE Bow. Hyperbole isn't as helpful as people think.

[(XBOX)WafflyLearner89]

My opinion is this: melee does not need a huge nerf, but it does need it's power spread out. What I mean is if the melee system was given more depth with more mechanics implemented, the power from the simple melee should be spread out.

Plus, primary/secondary weapons should be made to be as effective as melee weapons in power. 

It would help if the enemies were given more depth in difficulty outside of bullet sponge. Maybe they should make enemy types that encourage tenno to use all the weapons in their arsenal equally. 🤔

[_R_o_g_u_e_]

29 minutes ago, (XBOX)WafflyLearner89 said:

My opinion is this: melee does not need a huge nerf, but it does need it's power spread out. What I mean is if the melee system was given more depth with more mechanics implemented, the power from the simple melee should be spread out.

Plus, primary/secondary weapons should be made to be as effective as melee weapons in power. 

It would help if the enemies were given more depth in difficulty outside of bullet sponge. Maybe they should make enemy types that encourage tenno to use all the weapons in their arsenal equally. 🤔

The words “depth” and “mechanics” are almost meaningless on their own. You might as well have just said “I want melee to be more enjoyable.”

Do you have any examples of what you’re referring to?

[Loza03]

1 minute ago, (PSN)dday3six said:

Everything? No...

Stop delineating the utterly false pretense that any melee weapon automatically outclasses all ranged ones in every situation.

As I stated previously it's only a few melees that truly rise so high above the rest due to high crit, status, and slash values.

DE could buff the critical chance some of the higher tier ranged weapons so more could hit over 100% and buff proc chance of Hunter Munitions to 50%. Then suddenly the gap between the highest ends of melee and range is lessened dramatically.

 

Interesting claim. I decided to stress-test this claim, by seeing if a particular melee could manage to best a Steel Path mission.

That melee being my 0-forma, no-catalyst Skana.  I furthered this by challenging myself to do it with no abilities

Spoiler

 

 

I of course used a Scaling mod. If I'd decided to make use of a Catalyst, I could have dramatically reduced the time taken by using Condition Overload and Drifting Contact (whilst still being able to heal via Life Strike), which would likely have also prevented those deaths - although then again, those were primarily due to Acolytes. And I still took one of them out anyway, as you can see (I have a booster active).

 

Point being, no, Melee's that are capable of high-level content aren't limited to the best-of-the-best hallowed few. With just the use of Weeping Wounds, the first weapon you can ever get becomes a decent weapon capable of the Steel Path. More than that, the addition of just a couple of extra scaling mods would make it comparable to the likes of the Mausolon, an MR14 arch-gun. And of course, a ranged equivalent, the Mk-1 Braton struggles to take out a single Lancer in the same circumstances - and I mean struggles like 'can't do it on its full magazine, let alone a full clip' struggles.

[Aldain]

3 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

That melee being my 0-forma, no-catalyst Skana.  I furthered this by challenging myself to do it with no abilities

If there were ever an object of evidence that proves just how whackjob OP melee is it would be that.

So a Skana can do Steel Path E Prime with zero abilities, anyone want to try that same thing with a Rivenless Lato or Braton?

[Loza03]

5 minutes ago, Aldain said:

If there were ever an object of evidence that proves just how whackjob OP melee is it would be that.

So a Skana can do Steel Path E Prime with zero abilities, anyone want to try that same thing with a Rivenless Lato or Braton?

I did.

I got about 4 enemies in, then ran out of ammo and dropped in the Mausolon to complete the mission.

[Aldain]

1 minute ago, Loza03 said:

I did.

I got about 4 enemies in, then ran out of ammo and dropped in the Mausolon to complete the mission.

Interesting.

So I have one question to the thread at large...

[(PSN)Hopper_Orouk]

I don't understand, if you guys don't want people to complain or post feedback about the game here on the forums.

Then what exactly is it that you do here?