"Melee Good, Gun Bad."

[XzWasPzX]

Do not nerf melee, simply buff guns... Increase base damage, allow damage escalation based on enemies level, there are some strategies that devs can use to buff guns instead of nerf melee, which has been already nerf since melee 3.0.

[Angwah]

Look, it's not about nerfing melee, but the couple of mods which have a ridiculously outsized effect.

Another test, now with a Mk1 Bo. No formas, just bought from the market as a MR27 and threw a reactor on it:

Mk 1 Bo

SP Exterminate Mission success

SP Exterminate mission success stats

Yeah, forgot I was still in Zenurik so even had to rebuild combo all the time. Didn't matter in the end. No pet equipped, and no abilities used. WF Arcanes were Arcane Strike & Avenger. Operator Arcanes were Lockdown and Repair, but only had to use them against acolytes. 

So, in short, against SP enemies a Mk1 Bo with the scaling mods (CO, BF and WW) and a single element was enough. And they procced enough status to keep me on my feet just with Healing Return. Even against Acolytes it was up to the task, though without going Operator + Lockdown + Repair they would obviously have killed me, but, eh, risky not doing that or using WF abilities to shut them down, even with bleeding edge meta weapons equipped, so that's fair game in my eyes. 

It's not about guns being weak or slash+viral/heat being broken. Yeah, sure, it's part of the larger issue, but the real culprits are all the damn multipliers and the worst offenders in that department are CO, BF & WW. They can even bring a stupid Mk1 Bo up to the level of dealing with SP. 

 

[MonsterOfMyOwn]

The "nerf vs buff" debate is deeper than just "melee good / gun bad", it also has to adress "casual missions with randos vs sharpened teamplay", and overall risk / reward, and rewards vs time.

The current situation is warframe being : casual, solo player friendly, around 3h of grind to get new shiny stuff (kuva weapons, new warframe missions, full set of prime weapon / frame), some content have longer tedious grind (railjack intrinsics, open world syndicates).

To a certain extent you can nerf weeping wounds, condition overload, bloodrush, slash damages, viral status, without making content unplayable, because with 4 players playing as a team you'll still be able to complete a mission, and it would make buff/support more relevant. But it would also imply to limit solo players and power fantasy. And would also make the grind more risky / longer

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

2 hours ago, Angwah said:

Look, it's not about nerfing melee, but the couple of mods which have a ridiculously outsized effect.

Another test, now with a Mk1 Bo. No formas, just bought from the market as a MR27 and threw a reactor on it:

Mk 1 Bo

SP Exterminate Mission success

SP Exterminate mission success stats

Yeah, forgot I was still in Zenurik so even had to rebuild combo all the time. Didn't matter in the end. No pet equipped, and no abilities used. WF Arcanes were Arcane Strike & Avenger. Operator Arcanes were Lockdown and Repair, but only had to use them against acolytes. 

So, in short, against SP enemies a Mk1 Bo with the scaling mods (CO, BF and WW) and a single element was enough. And they procced enough status to keep me on my feet just with Healing Return. Even against Acolytes it was up to the task, though without going Operator + Lockdown + Repair they would obviously have killed me, but, eh, risky not doing that or using WF abilities to shut them down, even with bleeding edge meta weapons equipped, so that's fair game in my eyes. 

It's not about guns being weak or slash+viral/heat being broken. Yeah, sure, it's part of the larger issue, but the real culprits are all the damn multipliers and the worst offenders in that department are CO, BF & WW. They can even bring a stupid Mk1 Bo up to the level of dealing with SP. 

 

Your first 2 links are the same picture, and your 3rd screenshot doesn't have the time shown? How long did the mission take and what mission was it?

Edit: Nevermind it showed up

[Angwah]

3 minutes ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

Your first 2 links are the same picture, and your 3rd screenshot doesn't have the time shown? How long did the mission take and what mission was it?

Dammit! Anyway, fixed.

It was SP Mariana, and it took about half an hour. Obviously not a speed run, but what do you expect? Would have gone lots faster if I was Naramon instead of Zenurik though.

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

1 minute ago, Angwah said:

Dammit! Anyway, fixed.

It was SP Mariana, and it took about half an hour. Obviously not a speed run, but what do you expect? Would have gone lots faster if I was Naramon instead of Zenurik though.

Uhm....35min is absolutely ridiculous.....

I can solo exploiter orb with guns in 25min....

Keep in mind WW and BR were already nerfed. I really doubt they're touching them again. It's more realistic to do what they did to melee to guns in some gun update 3.0 and start out buffing the base damage, status and crit of some weapons and seeing how they perform before adding combo hit counters for rapidly firing weapons and co mods for guns which would be ridiculously abusable which is what some people have been asking for.

[Angwah]

8 minutes ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

Uhm....35min is absolutely ridiculous.....

I can solo exploiter orb with guns in 25min....

Keep in mind WW and BR were already nerfed. I really doubt they're touching them again. It's more realistic to do what they did to melee to guns in some gun update 3.0 and start out buffing the base damage, status and crit of some weapons and seeing how they perform before adding combo hit counters for rapidly firing weapons and co mods for guns which would be ridiculously abusable which is what some people have been asking for.

Well yes. Mk1 Bo is a ridiculous weapon, and I gave it a stupid build (dropping BR for 60/60 cold+toxic would have been better, or fitting in more reach, didn't need both BR & WW), didn't go in with the melee school, didn't have a pet, didn't use abilities, didn't use Operator (except with Acolytes), etc. 

I just pressed 'E'.

Anyway, I indeed doubt they'll be touching them again, even if they really should, and as I obviously think those 3 mods are OP, I wouldn't want them ported over as they are to ranged weapons. I wouldn't mind ranged weapons interacting with the combo mechanic, though with saner mods.

If you think BR, WW and CO would be ridiculously abusable with ranged weapons, well, they are equally abusable with melee after all.

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

13 minutes ago, Angwah said:

Well yes. Mk1 Bo is a ridiculous weapon, and I gave it a stupid build (dropping BR for 60/60 cold+toxic would have been better, or fitting in more reach, didn't need both BR & WW), didn't go in with the melee school, didn't have a pet, didn't use abilities, didn't use Operator (except with Acolytes), etc. 

I just pressed 'E'.

Anyway, I indeed doubt they'll be touching them again, even if they really should, and as I obviously think those 3 mods are OP, I wouldn't want them ported over as they are to ranged weapons. I wouldn't mind ranged weapons interacting with the combo mechanic, though with saner mods.

If you think BR, WW and CO would be ridiculously abusable with ranged weapons, well, they are equally abusable with melee after all.

CO and BR WW mods would be great for regular weapons. By abusable I mean with the current and upcoming weapons that are being released....

DE seems to be aware of the place guns are in, or they wouldn't be releasing guns with massively improved base damage status and crit. 

Those same scaling mods would help an akzani, but would be abused on the Bramma for example....although it would be easy to simply not allow a few handful of already great performing weapons to not use said mods. 

I also don't agree they should be touched again for melee. There are too many facets of the game that are "overpowered" to just pick on one. You have a divided community and many of us see no issue with the game as it is. The freedom of movement and power is why we play and support the game. 

[Angwah]

15 minutes ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

CO and BR WW mods would be great for regular weapons. By abusable I mean with the current and upcoming weapons that are being released....

DE seems to be aware of the place guns are in, or they wouldn't be releasing guns with massively improved base damage status and crit. 

Those same scaling mods would help an akzani, but would be abused on the Bramma for example....although it would be easy to simply not allow a few handful of already great performing weapons to not use said mods. 

I also don't agree they should be touched again for melee. There are too many facets of the game that are "overpowered" to just pick on one. You have a divided community and many of us see no issue with the game as it is. The freedom of movement and power is why we play and support the game. 

Eh, the root of this issue has already been touched on by someone else in this thread. It indeed has to do with base stats and how mods interact with them. Basically bonuses are generally calculated as multipliers to those base stats.

Stack those multipliers too high and stuff gets wonky as even small differences get distorted into huge differences in performance. BR, WW and CO are huge multipliers so the effect is really outsized with them in particular, but this is also why even 0,5 disposition Riven with the right stats is so awesome, because you can keep stacking those same multipliers.

Aaaaand that brings us to the situation where the scale of damage goes from what amounts to a tickle to numbers so big they overflow the buffer of the variable DE uses to show on-screen. So yeah, I actually believe they ought to look beyond individual weapons and mods and reassess how all the numbers get calculated. Less multipliers, more additions, close that spread in damage output (followed by closing the spread in ehp of enemies).