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How would you improve Rivens?


Cloud
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You guys are hilarious.

You sit in this echo chamber with a handful of players and toss out the same old "if you don't think like we do, your brain is broken" (gambling problem? really?), or that I am just some old luddite or something 'stuck in the mud'.

Hilarious.

I can totally accept the fact there are people in the world that like to play games in different ways without tryin to say their brains are broken, they simply enjoy different things. Let's also be really clear - the 'mud' comparison has seriously racial origins, so I will just leave that one alone.

So sure, call me crazy, say I have a gambling problem, tell the world the Evil Game Companies are preying on us all, whatever, it's pretty fun to watch, TBH, and is just the exact same old tired circular arguments I have seen for decades playing games and talking about them, "As the Hamster Wheel Turns" indeed.

Meanwhile, I will enjoy this game and others, while so very many of you kvetch and moan because the Evil Game Company will not fulfill your dreams.

🖖

Edited by Zimzala
speeling hard
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I'd do 2 things to rivens.

1. Set all rivens to the lowest dispo.

2. Rebalance all weapons so all are even in strength with slightly different uses. Instead of being picked for "moar damage!" they'd be picked for use and playstyle of the player.

The rivens would simply serve as QoL mods after that, as a possible replacement to a rare mod where you can roll for the stats you want instead. While being able to get slightly more stats out of it if you are also prepared to use a negative.

There is absolutely zero reason to have weapon power tied to MR since MR has no actual impact on how we handle enemies or what defense and offense we have against them based on level difference. MR just leaves several weapons in the dirt lightyears behind the rest.

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6 hours ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

Expecting to farm everything in a game

It's a free to play game, my man. What in Warframe can't be farmed? That's literally the game's tagline. NINJAS PLAY FREE. What in this game requires you to go to the market if you want to make reasonable progress? Rivens and Rivens alone. That's not right.

7 hours ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

So they improved all these RNG systems, yea....but people are still buying liches and ephemeras in trade chat, they're obviously still buying prime parts and whole sets.....they're still buying arcanes and rivens as well...people are still buying and selling a lot of things.....so why is that? I thought you said people shouldn't have to trade and it should all be optional?

You just described *an optional system*. 🤦‍♀️

Trading these things should be optional, and it is. You can get Liches and Ephemera and Prime parts and Arcanes at a reasonable pace through your own effort. You cannot do the same with Rivens. The excessiveness of the RNG does not allow this when your only non-trade option is to gamble with worse than 1 in 1,000 odds. That is the problem.

6 hours ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

You could start selling

https://emoji.gg/assets/emoji/8241_NoBugsBunny.png

For the third or fourth time, I shouldn't have to. I don't want to. I'm not going to.

6 hours ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

I'm just saying be prepared to be disappointed if you don't get your way right away.

Buddy I've been saying this same stuff for more than four years. You think I don't know this??? I'm long past being disappointed by Rivens, now I'm just disappointed by DE for their inaction and the community for their incessant defense of this terrible system.

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2 minutes ago, PublikDomain said:

It's a free to play game, my man. What in Warframe can't be farmed? That's literally the game's tagline. NINJAS PLAY FREE. What in this game requires you to go to the market if you want to make reasonable progress? Rivens and Rivens alone. That's not right.

You just described *an optional system*. 🤦‍♀️

Trading these things should be optional, and it is. You can get Liches and Ephemera and Prime parts and Arcanes at a reasonable pace through your own effort. You cannot do the same with Rivens. The excessiveness of the RNG does not allow this when your only non-trade option is to gamble with worse than 1 in 1,000 odds. That is the problem.

https://emoji.gg/assets/emoji/8241_NoBugsBunny.png

For the third or fourth time, I shouldn't have to. I don't want to. I'm not going to.

Buddy I've been saying this same stuff for more than four years. You think I don't know this??? I'm long past being disappointed by Rivens, now I'm just disappointed by DE for their inaction and the community for their incessant defense of this terrible system.

Welcome to business. You're upset that a game basically has 1 loot box rng portion, while other people have actually seen games with basically 3 to 8 other rng loot box additions. 

Nothing is perfect, the game has to make money, and that's just how it goes. 

If they ever make rivens untradeable or fix the RNG, you will see other shady tactics put in place to replace them. 

Warframe isn't a charity. Sorry. 

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9 minutes ago, PublikDomain said:

Buddy I've been saying this same stuff for more than four years. You think I don't know this??? I'm long past being disappointed by Rivens, now I'm just disappointed by DE for their inaction and the community for their incessant defense of this terrible system.

So?

Really, so what?

You are 'dissapoint'. Who cares?

I think most of the gaming community, not this game, the entire 'Internet posting' gaming community, are a bunch a whiny, immature, selfish, elitist twits, personally, having been a gamer for about 40 years, from playing cards with the adults as a kid up until today playing GaaS games with kids that think they are adults.

Internet Posters talk a big game about how they 'take companies to task' and 'show the community how they are lemmings' that 'just roll over and take it', yet don't have the basic logic and life skills to either make a proposal to a company with ROI projections in a real business case. Nor do they have the ability realize they are trapped by their own brain chemistry and leave behind a game that is obviously causing them stress, while 'talking about the same stuff for more than four years' in circles, rather than removing the stressor from their lives and finding a new entertainment vehicle, all while trying to bring everyone else down, IME.

So really, why would any of us care about the outlook of disgruntled gamers that just want to tear down stuff we find fun, because they forgot how to find what they would find fun and decided to demand companies do their bidding?

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1 minute ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

You're upset that a game basically has 1 loot box rng portion, while other people have actually seen games with basically 3 to 8 other rng loot box additions. 

Well, yes. I'm glad you understand.

FWIW I've seen plenty of S#&$ty loot boxes and scummy business practices in other games. I still occasionally play War Thunder and that game is run by absolute scumbags. They've got literal loot boxes, like the kind with premium keys and everything, terribly grindy events with rewards that are only feasible if you make the game a second job or pay real money to buy them outright, a weird #*!%in' crypto-currency thing where you can buy vehicles from other players for like $300 or more, premium P2W vehicles that cost $40-60 per vehicle, paid premium time that makes non-premium play basically impossible, premium vehicles that require you to buy other premium vehicles as a prerequisite, partnerships with those weird Asian points websites where you have to buy things with basically Microsoft Points, you name it, they've done it. Absolute scum of the earth F2P business practices. And that's why I'm never going to give them money.

DE, on the other hand, tends to be pretty fair about their monetization. It's the best part about Warframe IMO: the whole "Ninjas play free" tagline is more or less true. You can indeed play the game for free, and because they're so fair about it it seem like most players have no problem throwing some money at the game from time to time. You basically never see a player who hasn't spent money on premium cosmetics. DE's fairness is, aside from the setting, one of the reasons I care about this game at all. So yes, I'm not happy about an otherwise wonderfully-monetized F2P game allowing a bad, cancerous loot box mechanic to grow and fester for years. I think DE can be better than that. Like, not too long ago they removed a literal loot box and replaced them with open-faced mod packs. This was another good change that made the game better. They should do something similar with Rivens.

58 minutes ago, Zimzala said:

I can totally accept the fact there are people in the world that like to play games in different ways without tryin to say their brains are broken,

4 minutes ago, Zimzala said:

I think most of the gaming community, not this game, the entire 'Internet posting' gaming community, are a bunch a whiny, immature, selfish, elitist twits, personally, having been a gamer for about 40 years, from playing cards with the adults as a kid up until today playing GaaS games with kids that think they are adults.

🤦‍♀️

This is what I meant, Zim, when I called you a hypocrite.

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Just now, PublikDomain said:

 

🤦‍♀️

This is what I meant, Zim, when I called you a hypocrite.

By saying I think these people are acting like children who did not get the ice cream flavor they desired, I am not saying they are broken, I am not saying I do not accept their POV as being a valid POV, I am simply expressing my POV at their outlooks, which I find distasteful.

None of that says they are broken, like the implication of a 'gambling problem' does, it just says I find their outlook distasteful.

Gamers at scale IME are some of the most whiny and immature humans I have generally encountered, from video games to Friday Night Magic.

Some of them are close, personal friends.

Selfish, whiny, elitist - these are points of view and attitudes, not mental health issues. These people are not 'crazy' or 'broken', they simply hold ideas and POVs that I think should be called out for being what they are. It does not mean the people holding these thoughts and POVs are broken, like saying someone has a gambling problem or being called a 'worthless human being' for preferring a game take longer to finish, as has occurred with me here on these forums.

Finally, yes, I am a hypocrite, full stop, because i am human. If each of us does not have the self reflection to realize that to be human is to be a hypocrite, then one is not really being honest with oneself, it is just part of the human condition.

If it makes you feel better to call me the 'bad guy' and call yourself the 'good guy', please go right ahead, I have been the 'bad guy' plenty and I can live with that.

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3 hours ago, PublikDomain said:

It's a free to play game, my man. What in Warframe can't be farmed? That's literally the game's tagline. NINJAS PLAY FREE. What in this game requires you to go to the market if you want to make reasonable progress? Rivens and Rivens alone. That's not right.

You just described *an optional system*. 🤦‍♀️

Trading these things should be optional, and it is. You can get Liches and Ephemera and Prime parts and Arcanes at a reasonable pace through your own effort. You cannot do the same with Rivens. The excessiveness of the RNG does not allow this when your only non-trade option is to gamble with worse than 1 in 1,000 odds. That is the problem.

https://emoji.gg/assets/emoji/8241_NoBugsBunny.png

For the third or fourth time, I shouldn't have to. I don't want to. I'm not going to.

Buddy I've been saying this same stuff for more than four years. You think I don't know this??? I'm long past being disappointed by Rivens, now I'm just disappointed by DE for their inaction and the community for their incessant defense of this terrible system.

Just because you dont like something, doesnt mean its terrible. 

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3 hours ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

Welcome to business. You're upset that a game basically has 1 loot box rng portion, while other people have actually seen games with basically 3 to 8 other rng loot box additions. 

Nothing is perfect, the game has to make money, and that's just how it goes. 

If they ever make rivens untradeable or fix the RNG, you will see other shady tactics put in place to replace them. 

Warframe isn't a charity. Sorry. 

This. 

I spend money on this game on occasion because i like supporting DE. 

It should be enough that DE allows us to earn plat from other players. 

 

You can even farm enough plat to buy a collection of good rivens for free, ffs. 

 

>"i dont want to pay money to buy rivens from trade chat"

>"but i also dont want to participate in selling items to raise plat"

>"but it isnt enough for me to simply not participate in the riven market, i want the entire system changed to accomodate my desire to have rivens while maintaining point A and B. Screw everybody who disagrees with me".

 

This is entitlement at its finest. 

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At this point there is nothing they can do to improve it. Any changes would cause a lot of trouble for people who invested plat, more trouble than dispositions already cause which completely took me out of it. I'm not going to grind for something that can be changed on a whim lol especially with so little positive return considering how many times I rolled things when I bothered with the system.

 

What makes it worse is if a weapon you have a riven for gets primed and you can't even be excited about it because of a different disposition and if your favorite is in a good spot, you never know when that can change and turn a prized possession into garbage if it ruins an entire build.

 

Overall, the money they probably make over it now and the silence leave this to be just another one of those issues that will never be addressed.

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35 minutes ago, (XBOX)ECCHO SIERRA said:

You gonna refund everyone's time and plat investment into the system?

Read the ToS. This game is subject to change at any time. Legally there is nothing anyone could do if they did. How is it any different to all the other times that they've completely invalidated players time investment into the game?

Edited by -CdG-Zilchy
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On 2021-02-09 at 9:31 AM, Cloud said:

It is well known both in game and on this forum, how the Riven System is quite disliked for various and different reasons. Someone even hates the whole concept of it, even asking for their removal.

Now, leaving aside the last option which is quite extreme, if you had the power to change anything regarding Rivens, what would you pick and why? (You can take more options)

1- Way of acquisition

2- Way of unveil

3- Way of cycling/changing stats

4- Types and/or Amount of bonuses

5- Which weapons could use them

6- Disposition and relations to other variants of the weapon

7- Others

Delete them from the game entirely.

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Rivens were a mistake. No, you cannot change my mind. They were a band aid fix to a glaring problem--that problem being proper weapon balance and scaling. However, sadly, I cannot see them ever being removed, mainly because they were also added as a means of extra revenue generation for DE. Not that there's anything wrong with that.

What I find funny is they added them as a band aid fix due to many weapons being weak, but then went ahead and overhauled melee to such a degree that they rendered the original intention of buffing primaries/secondaries via these rivens for naught. Now even some of the most weakest melee weapons with the right builds completely destroy some of the strongest primary/secondary weapons--even with a riven in them.

If it were up to me and I had the resources to do so, I'd scrap rivens entirely, have all the weapons be put through balance checks and overhauled (like adding unique traits/abilities to more weapons etc) and have damage/scaling looked at.

However, we're stuck with rivens. Best I can think of for now is either DE nerfs melee (no fun allowed path) or DE universally buffs primaries/secondaries to bring them up to the same level as melee.

Regardless, would like to see more unique abilities on weapons--like the Pyrana Prime gaining an ethereal double and increasing fire rate, Dual Toxocyst gaining increased fire rate on head shots, etc etc.

Edited by Numerikuu
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55 minutes ago, (XBOX)ECCHO SIERRA said:

Just because you dont like something, doesnt mean its terrible. 

*In my opinion* the RNG is terrible. *In my opinion* having worse than 1 in 1,000 odds for every part of the system is terrible. *In my opinion*, which OP was asking for, these are the the terrible parts of the Riven system that ought to be improved. *In my opinion*, DE could address what *in my opinion* are the problems with the system by implementing deterministic unveiling and stat locking. *In my opinion* spending my time and effort in ways where I can make measurable progress is far better than blind RNG. Sorry if having an opinion offends you.

52 minutes ago, (XBOX)ECCHO SIERRA said:

>"but it isnt enough for me to simply not participate in the riven market, i want the entire system changed to accomodate my desire to have rivens while maintaining point A and B. Screw everybody who disagrees with me".

I mean, yeah. None of the things I've suggested would do diddly squat to the people that want to suffer through the existing RNG.

  • Adding specific types of Veiled Rivens to Palladino wouldn't do anything to you. You could just roll a dice and pick one to buy randomly.
  • Adding deterministic unveiling wouldn't do anything to you. You could still choose the random Riven.
  • Adding stat locking wouldn't do anything to you. You could continue rollling blindly.
  • Adding more misc stats would affect you, and it would instead probably benefit you unless you're the type that only wants meta stats on your Rivens.
  • Allowing all weapons, like the Artax, to roll Rivens wouldn't affect you any more than when a new weapon or Riven category is added.
  • Adjusting Disposition more often when a weapon is added wouldn't do anything to you, and would instead benefit you since it would settle sooner and change less often.
  • Including Rivens in game balance would affect you, but with the ability to get any Riven and lock stats it wouldn't be any different than adding Forma or a potato to your weapon.

So how dare I want changes to a system that would improve my user experience without affecting you. How dare I not want to be beholden to the market in a game whose tagline is "Ninjas play free". It seems to me like the "screw anyone who disagrees with me" mentality extends far more to the naysayers in this thread than anyone else. There are a lot of interesting ideas in this thread, and just who do you think it is poo-pooing on them? Like the guy who mentioned replacing Rivens with a crafting system? And as always the people dumping on everyones ideas have nothing to provide to the discussion except whining and insults.

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12 минут назад, PublikDomain сказал:
  • Adding specific types of Veiled Rivens to Palladino wouldn't do anything to you. You could just roll a dice and pick one to buy randomly.
  • Adding deterministic unveiling wouldn't do anything to you. You could still choose the random Riven.
  • Adding stat locking wouldn't do anything to you. You could continue rollling blindly.

no one will pick random riven.

in result according to your points 1 and 2 we will end up with a S#&$ ton of vectis/rubico rivens and 0 veldt rivens for example. same for pistols (99% nukor, 1% else)and melee.
zaw kitgun etc rivens provably will stop to exist

and with statlocking 99% of rivens will be with locked cc, cd or ms - in other words people just want a way to get god roll rivens almost for free

sure you as a game developer knows for sure what are you talking about

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Rivens are just fine. I do have a minor adjustment or "improvement" I want and that is to have more than 180 slots (at MR30) or remove the cap entirely for rivens. Let us just buy more space if we want to. Why does DE implement this? It is after all an additional platinum sink for anyone who collects like I do. Transmutation is sometimes wasteful and I am already forced to do this regularly to participate in sorties. 

I do not get why some get so incensed by rivens. Understand that there are players who like playing against RNG and drawing that rare god roll can actually be fun. That failure to get a good roll, sudden disposition changes and/or losing your investment are part of the risks of playing the game (just like any other game in existence).

However, I do understand that not everyone can handle the baggage of taking risks. But deterministic or locking stats sounds even more ridiculous since they tend to be abused more than often so it is a big no no for me. 

Edited by Alpha_Tango
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19 minutes ago, Merrcenary said:

in result according to your points 1 and 2 we will end up with a S#&$ ton of vectis/rubico rivens and 0 veldt rivens for example. same for pistols (99% nukor, 1% else)and melee.

This is a concern I see floated a lot, and I'm not sure if it really matters. If someone really wants a dozen Vectis or Rubicos, I don't know if it's my business or yours... Let em, if that's their jam let em have at it. The existing Disposition system already addresses popular weapons that become too powerful and would do the same here.

21 minutes ago, Merrcenary said:

zaw kitgun etc rivens provably will stop to exist

That's probably fine, though I think keeping them as a separate category could be necessary since a Kitgun could fall under all of the gun categories. Though DE could certainly drop those categories which would result in a little less clutter, so sounds like a good idea to me. I may adopt and formalize this idea.

23 minutes ago, Merrcenary said:

and with statlocking 99% of rivens will be with locked cc, cd or ms - in other words people just want a way to get god roll rivens almost for free

Not free, with effort. The numbers I quoted for getting any 3 specific positive stats ended up being like 2 weeks to acquire the Riven for the weapon and then about 300k Kuva over 40 rolls. I think that's a fine amount of effort to ask of one mod, and I'd hardly call that "free".

27 minutes ago, Merrcenary said:

sure you as a game developer knows for sure what are you talking about

Literally working in Unreal rn.

https://i.imgur.com/l9gOz9y.png

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Most of that list needs to be looked at. Not even sure DE wants the same system I do. 

1, Riven system at the moment is deeply flawed, impossible to get the riven you want. Unless DE changes how rivens work which is technically difficult. 

2, Outside of some minor changes could use resource system like helminth. a

3, Kuva needs to be changed, again I would look towards less RNG more helminth resource system. 

4, Base stats need to increase 5% turns into 15% without any upgrades. Add crit mod and follows the normal rules. So everything increases by set amount which you can increase further. 

5, I don't think weak weapons alone should get rivens. Not against this happening if makes rivens stronger with less rng. 

6, Not sure what to say here 

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4 минуты назад, PublikDomain сказал:

This is a concern I see floated a lot, and I'm not sure if it really matters. If someone really wants a dozen Vectis or Rubicos, I don't know if it's my business or yours... Let em, if that's their jam let em have at it. The existing Disposition system already addresses popular weapons that become too powerful and would do the same here.

 

8 минут назад, PublikDomain сказал:

Literally working in Unreal rn.

then implement your prototype of the riven system and test how people will use it and what drawbacks will immediately appear. because what you advise and what the results may be is clearly not how the DEs designed their system

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57 minutes ago, Merrcenary said:

then implement your prototype of the riven system and test how people will use it and what drawbacks will immediately appear,

Sure lemme just ask my boss if I can adjust their game's design to accommodate that, lol. Actually - let me not. They might actually like the idea and make me implement it for real.

Though I guess I could go further than my image mockups and make a working prototype on my own time. I don't know what it'd tell you other than "dang, this is way more convenient than what we have now", and it seems like that'd be a bit of a waste of time. Even if I spent a few hours working on such a thing the usual crew would still crap on the idea because nothing is ever good enough for them. Plus there's the logistics of actually getting builds out to people, etc. A nice idea but maybe not worth it.

ETA: Yeah, #*!%it. Gimme a few days. Probably won't be a packaged thing you can download but I can make some nice gifs of how everything would work. Next time this thread comes around, or if it's still up when I'm finished, I can flop my girthy prototype onto the table and scare off the naysayers.

57 minutes ago, Merrcenary said:

because what you advise and what the results may be is clearly not how the DEs designed their system

Well yeah, DE designed their system to be excessively grindy so they can siphon money out of whales. or if they didn't, that was the result and they're more than happy keeping quiet and ignoring the problems that surface. The results of what I propose would go against that so clearly DE isn't going to take action on them. None of the ideas presented here by me or others are going to be seen by DE, and I think most of us know that. We can still talk about it, though.

Edited by PublikDomain
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24 minutes ago, Merrcenary said:

 

then implement your prototype of the riven system and test how people will use it and what drawbacks will immediately appear. because what you advise and what the results may be is clearly not how the DEs designed their system

Bold mine.

The people that think Riven and the systems around them are huge problems simply will not accept, IMO, that DE had the audacity to make a system they dislike and the continuing audacity to not turn that system into one that they do like.

No amount of conversation or interaction with theses individuals will result in them understanding that the point of the system is that it remains non-deterministic.

The people that think it's 'bad' simply view playing games as a chore to finish, a puzzle with a final solution, etc., IME/IMO, based on posts here and all over the Internet forever and a day.

Some people think "RNG Rewards = Bad" and nothing will move them from that opinion.

I find it hilarious and entertaining that they tilt at windmills with such fervor. Sometimes, they have good zingers as well. It's especially fun when they accuse those of us that take things in the game less seriously of somehow being 'pushovers' in RL, etc., that one is my personal favorite, next to "if the game company does not remove RNG, it will die".

That's not even to touch on how much some of the armchair developers think the simplistic and exploitable systems they come up with are oh-so-much-better than a company making money off of games already.

The Riven haters of this game are definitely some of the most interesting to observe and IMO/IME, some of the most determine to remove RNG. It's like not being able to get the exact Riven they desire is a personal insult from DE, a "slap in the face" as many like to say.

Very entertaining.

Edited by Zimzala
words hard
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12 hours ago, (XBOX)TyeGoo said:

I'd change acquisition. Since release I didn't unveil one riven I received for a weapon I like, hence I still sit at 0 rivens owned. It's always tetra, gorgon, halikar and other nonsense. 

I'd introduce a system where it's like do x things with x weapon (a long term goal, so something that can't be done in a few days/weeks) that unlocks a guaranteed riven for that weapon. Something like a check list. Of course, it only works once per account to prevent people stocking up on rivens for x weapon. 

But at least this way people can actually work towards getting rivens for weapons where they want one for. 

I'd keep the current acquisition too though, because there's people who love getting slapped in the face unveiling gorgon rivens until death. 

Off topic I know but hey man what’s your beef with the Gorgon? The Prisma variant is actually very good.

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