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How to easily solve the Gun vs Melee dilemma


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First, we have to address the real problem: 

●) There is pretty much no functional difference between the two classes aside from: damage. Specially because overtime, DE added weapons that cover functionalities from OTHER classes, like Gunblades (high single target damage) and Guns with AoE. Guns vs Melees should be Single Target vs AoE but DE kinda messed up with this, that doesn't mean we can't solve this problem.

Now that this is established, what is my solution? Simple, burst power vs consistent power. 

1) Melees should have less burst power (or at least, very stricted). So we have to remove heavy attack spam, sadly...I'll miss you Fragor Prime aka The Smash God. Honorable mention to Wolf Sledge aka ThorArrivesInWakanda.mp4.

2) Primaries/Secondaries should cause 2 times more damage by default, they also should have access to mods that give some kind of scaling like the ones that melees have currently. (This could also apply to archguns to an even higher degree, in normal gameplay they kinda feel like trash...except Mausolon, I love Mausolon)

3) Ammo drops should be more rare. To compensate that Guns now have a ton of damage. And by rare I mean...dude, good luck finding ammo even with mutation mods.

That's it. Problem solved. I know it will kinda hurt people who have invested (and like) a lot in Heavy Attack builds, specially rivens (I am one of those), but that's what I could think of.

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I think the melees should do 1/3 or less of the current damage taking into account that they all have area damage and can be spammed infinitely, in addition to the infinite damage scaling, some peps would disagree, but actually if you bring the extinguished dragon key with a full builded melee you can still kill everything, but will be more realistic instead of just the "press to nuke" thing.

And they should take more time to increase the damage.

They should have some drawback for that amound of damage and AoE, they even need to be reloaded or need some kind of energy.

Btw, i'm clearing lvl 50 grineers in hydron in seconds with my 2 moded lecta while my veldt with the same amount of mods needs almost 10 seconds to kill a single enemy, so... :v

Edited by Vortex
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Personally i'd make some elite enemies be dangerous af in close range, like Liches etc, so as to be a risk to melee. And at the same time, give us primed mods for guns, its about time.

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4 hours ago, Vortex said:

I think the melees should do 1/3 or less of the current damage taking into account that they all have area damage and can be spammed infinitely, in addition to the infinite damage scaling, some peps would disagree, but actually if you bring the extinguished dragon key with a full builded melee you can still kill everything, but will be more realistic instead of just the "press to nuke" thing.

And they should take more time to increase the damage.

They should have some drawback for that amound of damage and AoE, they even need to be reloaded or need some kind of energy.

Btw, i'm clearing lvl 50 grineers in hydron in seconds with my 2 moded lecta while my veldt with the same amount of mods needs almost 10 seconds to kill a single enemy, so... :v

Nah, I will disconsider everything you said. You reduce everything solely to damage.

Also, if you're going into a post comment about your ideas but not about your opinions on the ideas promoted in the post itself, just make your own post.

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The main problem I see with this thought process is that, at least based on my observations, melee tends to be the preferred option even in lower-level missions where regular firearms can handle enemies just fine. Probably due in large part to AoE of many melee weapons and the lack of risk in using them. And in higher level missions, you're talking about things like Slash coming to the forefront, ahead of raw damage - and many melee stances have guaranteed Slash procs built-in. Or in other words: in this scenario, at what point would using a firearm be preferred over continuing to use a melee? Might there be other changes necessary to nudge away from things like the dominance of Slash that makes melee preferable at higher levels?

Also, NGL, a bit confused when you talk about sustained / burst damage potential, mention dropping heavy attack spam (my Glaive may weep but okay), but then giving scaling mechanisms to firearms along the lines of the ones melee have - which, AFAIK, is Blood Rush and Weeping Wounds. Wouldn't that bestow firearms with sustained damage potential? Or, at least, try to in the face of limited ammo? And wouldn't sufficiently limited ammo kind of negate the bonus to those scaling attributes? There's some missing details there that just lead to confusion.

Edited by Tyreaus
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53 minutes ago, (XBOX)GodMasterTP said:

Nah, I will disconsider everything you said. You reduce everything solely to damage.

Also, if you're going into a post comment about your ideas but not about your opinions on the ideas promoted in the post itself, just make your own post.

Like you, I am free to give an opinion and discuss, if you don't like it then you are in the wrong place.

And by the way, it makes no difference whether you consider it or not.

The post is about the issue with melee and guns and it's explicit in the title, and everyone here has the right to express our opinions, nobody here is obliged to please you.

Edited by Vortex
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50 minutes ago, Tyreaus said:

And in higher level missions, you're talking about things like Slash coming to the forefront, ahead of raw damage - and many melee stances have guaranteed Slash procs built-in. Or in other words: in this scenario, at what point would using a firearm be preferred over continuing to use a melee? Might there be other changes necessary to nudge away from things like the dominance of Slash that makes melee preferable at higher levels?

You're overestimating slash by a lot, it's far from being as useful as it was. Melees are not better because they have guaranteed slash in some stances, in fact, I'm able to wipe out most content with my Xoris and it has guaranteed electricity. 

53 minutes ago, Tyreaus said:

Also, NGL, a bit confused when you talk about sustained / burst damage potential, mention dropping heavy attack spam (my Glaive may weep but okay), but then giving scaling mechanisms to firearms along the lines of the ones melee have - which, AFAIK, is Blood Rush and Weeping Wounds. Wouldn't that bestow firearms with sustained damage potential? Or, at least, try to in the face of limited ammo? And wouldn't sufficiently limited ammo kind of negate the bonus to those scaling attributes? There's some missing details there that just lead to confusion.

??? I wonder if you spent more time trying to find holes in my theory instead of trying to actually understand it. Because you literally explained how burst DPS works. 

=> Damage scales. 

=> Gun damage reaches its peak. 

=> Ammo depletes. 

=> Damage declines. 

You could make it so that the variant of Blood Rush/CO/Weeping Wounds for guns was much stronger than the melee variant, but it decreased ammo efficiency. Very simple.

That's like, the very concept of burst DPS, it reaches a very high point and then it drops.

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4 hours ago, Vortex said:

Like you, I am free to give an opinion and discuss, if you don't like it then you are in the wrong place.

And by the way, it makes no difference whether you consider it or not.

The post is about the issue with melee and guns and it's explicit in the title, and everyone here has the right to express our opinions, nobody here is obliged to please you.

No, the post is about MY solution to the problem, not the problem itself. If you're not capable enough to understand that simple concept, your problem. 

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3 hours ago, Kaggelos said:

Personally i'd make some elite enemies be dangerous af in close range, like Liches etc, so as to be a risk to melee. And at the same time, give us primed mods for guns, its about time.

Yes, Liches was a good implementation of encouraging ranged combat(Last time I was running them I survived the grab attacks, so stronger grab attacks was a better encouragement). I would definitely like to see more enemies that are dangerous at close range.

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1 minute ago, PhiThagRaid said:

Yes, Liches was a good implementation of encouraging ranged combat(Last time I was running them I survived the grab attacks, so stronger grab attacks was a better encouragement). I would definitely like to see more enemies that are dangerous at close range.

That's also a good solution, but tanky frames would be able to bypass that. I am not against this, it's just that this isn't enough.

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Risk and Reward....

Its fine for a melee to be a OHK in lots of games, because its usually balanced by incredibly short range vs guns.

In warframe, this balance is nonexistant because enemies don't pose any significant risk to us regardless of range, and our Frames are flying beyblades of death that close any distance instantly.

 

while I wouldn't mind Frame mobility being reeled in..... (I am a former Halo player after all) I don't see that sitting well with the playerbase

so where's that leave us? drastically reduce melee damage?

 

how about a subtle mechanic change? maybe reduce/remove the AoE 'follow through' multi-hit ability of melee weapons? so that melee encounters are a much more defined 1-on-1 affair and not sweeping through crowds like cutting grass?

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7 minutes ago, (PSN)haphazardlynamed said:

while I wouldn't mind Frame mobility being reeled in..... (I am a former Halo player after all) I don't see that sitting well with the playerbase

Yep, mobility is the best part of the game, weakening that would weaken the entire game for me.

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15 hours ago, (XBOX)GodMasterTP said:

No, the post is about MY solution to the problem, not the problem itself. If you're not capable enough to understand that simple concept, your problem. 

I believe that you came from a low-level community aka League of Legends and did not pay attention to the recommendations of the developers, I will help you this time:

How to Provide Good Constructive Feedback: A Dev’s Story - General - Warframe Forums

And just in case:

  • The best feedback occurs when two people discuss opposing viewpoints to find a constructive middle ground. Discussion is a natural part of feedback! Ensuring that it is polite and without personal attacks is key. We’re far less inclined to listen to feedback filled with personal attacks and rude speech. We are all trying our best!

And i'm out from your mighty "discussion", good luck.

Edited by Vortex
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19 hours ago, (XBOX)GodMasterTP said:

That's also a good solution, but tanky frames would be able to bypass that. I am not against this, it's just that this isn't enough.

They can just make grab attacks bypass defenses. Liches already do this.

I don’t see your suggestion as simple, because touching ammo economy can get pretty ugly fast. You have to take off meta weapons with terrible ammo economy for consideration.

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On 2021-02-09 at 5:17 PM, (XBOX)GodMasterTP said:

First, we have to address the real problem: 

●) There is pretty much no functional difference between the two classes aside from: damage. Specially because overtime, DE added weapons that cover functionalities from OTHER classes, like Gunblades (high single target damage) and Guns with AoE. Guns vs Melees should be Single Target vs AoE but DE kinda messed up with this, that doesn't mean we can't solve this problem.

Now that this is established, what is my solution? Simple, burst power vs consistent power. 

1) Melees should have less burst power (or at least, very stricted). So we have to remove heavy attack spam, sadly...I'll miss you Fragor Prime aka The Smash God. Honorable mention to Wolf Sledge aka ThorArrivesInWakanda.mp4.

2) Primaries/Secondaries should cause 2 times more damage by default, they also should have access to mods that give some kind of scaling like the ones that melees have currently. (This could also apply to archguns to an even higher degree, in normal gameplay they kinda feel like trash...except Mausolon, I love Mausolon)

3) Ammo drops should be more rare. To compensate that Guns now have a ton of damage. And by rare I mean...dude, good luck finding ammo even with mutation mods.

That's it. Problem solved. I know it will kinda hurt people who have invested (and like) a lot in Heavy Attack builds, specially rivens (I am one of those), but that's what I could think of.

Nothing has been established. You just made up your own rules out of thin air to then prop up your inaccurate feedback. 

Since many of us are now aware casual players with less attention to detail and nuance are gonna take a crack at buffing weapons giving terrible feedback, I went and tested some primaries and secondaries on T3 sortie enemies. 

My twin rogga built for toxin and magnetic: one shot every enemy with occasionally having to use a second shot to finish off the last 10% of health. 

The fulmin obviously one shot everything. 

Akvasto prime kills enemies in 1 to 3 shots, and that's just because I didn't wait for the slash procs to finish them off.

The Akzani actually didn't do much damage, but that's expected because it has very low base damage.

Many weapons are fully capable of killing enemies if you actually forma them and mod properly based on faction and their armor type. That's not even accounting for synergy with frame abilities and other teammates. 

You can also expect your damage to go even higher with Primed bane mods. 

You shouldn't expect to one shot steel path corrupted with weapons. That's just common sense. I can already kill large groups of steel path enemies with certain weapons. 

Edited by (PSN)Madurai-Prime
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On 2021-02-10 at 8:24 AM, (XBOX)GodMasterTP said:

Nah, I will disconsider everything you said. You reduce everything solely to damage.

Also, if you're going into a post comment about your ideas but not about your opinions on the ideas promoted in the post itself, just make your own post.

 

23 hours ago, (XBOX)GodMasterTP said:

No, the post is about MY solution to the problem, not the problem itself. If you're not capable enough to understand that simple concept, your problem. 

If you're telling people to not leave replies just because they think differently, why did you make a post? To stroke your own ego? Thing is that they're also right, melee is overpowered seeing as it deals lots of damage over an area. Your whole idea for things like removing heavy attack to call it "balanced" and making guns deal more damage with less ammo drops don't even make sense. You don't even explain what you're talking about.

 

This is a forum, not your personal blog. Also your "solution" shows that you don't even understand the issue you're addressing.

Edited by SpringRocker
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How to fix melee/gun issue in one change that doesn't affect numbers at all:

1) Make the combos harder to pull off.

That's it.  Getting rid of the basic one button spam combo means that melee still does more damage yes, but requires addition effort on the part of the player to do it. 

Edited by Klaeljanu
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On 2021-02-09 at 2:17 PM, (XBOX)GodMasterTP said:

1) Melees should have less burst power (or at least, very stricted). So we have to remove heavy attack spam, sadly...I'll miss you Fragor Prime aka The Smash God. Honorable mention to Wolf Sledge aka ThorArrivesInWakanda.mp4.

Heavy attacks are much slower to execute than just conventional melee attacks. Even though there are forced Slash procs of heavy attacks from certain weapons (Fang Prime, Reaper Prime, Glaive Prime, Pennant, etc.), it's just only one different playstyle from the conventional/"best" playstyle for Melee (Condition Overload, Blood Rush, Weeping Wounds, Berserker, (Primed) Reach, and certain Stance).

On 2021-02-09 at 2:17 PM, (XBOX)GodMasterTP said:

2) Primaries/Secondaries should cause 2 times more damage by default, they also should have access to mods that give some kind of scaling like the ones that melees have currently. (This could also apply to archguns to an even higher degree, in normal gameplay they kinda feel like trash...except Mausolon, I love Mausolon)

3) Ammo drops should be more rare. To compensate that Guns now have a ton of damage. And by rare I mean...dude, good luck finding ammo even with mutation mods.

That'll defeat the purpose of using ranged weapons, considering that Melee doesn't even cost ammo in the first place.

Using ranged weapons need to be a middle ground in terms of effectiveness and value compared to melee and abilities. It's ironic that using our ranged weapons poses a greater risk than using melee weapons against enemies, as most weapons in the game require precision. That in turn will likely leave us vulnerable by being less mobile than just to blend the enemies apart with our mobility and melee weapons as a result.

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3 hours ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

Nothing has been established. You just made up your own rules out of thin air to then prop up your inaccurate feedback. 

*Procceeds to talk about a subject that has nothing to do with anything I said.* 

3 hours ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

You shouldn't expect to one shot steel path corrupted with weapons.

That's literally what everybody is doing with melees. And I am supposed to be the one "making rules out of thin air". Hahaha that was hilarious

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20 hours ago, SpringRocker said:

If you're telling people to not leave replies just because they think differently, why did you make a post?

They can think differently, about MY post. If you're going into a post that proposes A as a topic, you talk about A as a topic.

20 hours ago, SpringRocker said:

Thing is that they're also right, melee is overpowered seeing as it deals lots of damage over an area.

☝️This, came before this 👇

20 hours ago, SpringRocker said:

Your whole idea for things like removing heavy attack to call it "balanced" and making guns deal more damage with less ammo drops don't even make sense.

If you don't know the difference between Sustained DPS and Burst DPS, not my problem. Also, if you can't correlate ideas in your head, that's called interpretation btw, that is not my problem too. I am not obligated to explain every detail, even the most basic ones, just because you're lacking in interpretation skills. But it's as simple as that: 

1) Gun damage > Melee damage. Due to the overall increase in Gun damage and decrease in Melee damage.

2) Gun availability < Melee availability. Due to the overall decrease in ammo availability and the fact that melees don't spend anything. 

20 hours ago, SpringRocker said:

You don't even explain what you're talking about.

Yeah I did explain, 2 or 3 times now, if you consider this comment. 

20 hours ago, SpringRocker said:

Also your "solution" shows that you don't even understand the issue you're addressing.

Strange, how can you claim that if you didn't understand anything I said, like you stated before? 🤔🤔 

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45 minutes ago, Klaeljanu said:

How to fix melee/gun issue in one change that doesn't affect numbers at all:

1) Make the combos harder to pull off.

That's it.  Getting rid of the basic one button spam combo means that melee still does more damage yes, but requires addition effort on the part of the player to do it. 

People would just drop combo builds and use heavy attack builds...you know, right? 

Also, DE got rid of the previous combo system, that worked almost like how you described, because people didn't like it either. Lmao 

 

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37 minutes ago, Duality52 said:

That'll defeat the purpose of using ranged weapons, considering that Melee doesn't even cost ammo in the first place.

Ahm...no, it wouldn't. Guns would have more DPS than a Heavy Attack, taking it's place in terms of functionality. 

But instead of being spammable, like Heavy Attacks, they would have to be used carefully due to ammo efficiency.

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45 minutes ago, Duality52 said:

Using ranged weapons need to be a middle ground in terms of effectiveness and value compared to melee and abilities.

That's exactly what my idea does. 

1) Gun damage > Melee damage. 

2) Gun availability < Melee availability. 

That pretty much defines different roles for both. Guns would cover, now, the role that Heavy Attacks had. 

While Melees would be the consistent DPS you would be using all the time.

Edited by (XBOX)GodMasterTP
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On 2021-02-10 at 9:57 AM, (XBOX)GodMasterTP said:

You're overestimating slash by a lot, it's far from being as useful as it was. Melees are not better because they have guaranteed slash in some stances, in fact, I'm able to wipe out most content with my Xoris and it has guaranteed electricity. 

I think you should probably double-check the rest of what I wrote there, because I mentioned that I observe people leaning toward melee even in cases where Slash isn't a dominant factor. Basically: it's prominent in both high-level (i.e. Slash-dominant) and low-level missions. From what I can tell, it's because of the accessibility of Slash and the AoE of melee weapons, respectively.

Also, you didn't even answer the question.

On 2021-02-10 at 9:57 AM, (XBOX)GodMasterTP said:

??? I wonder if you spent more time trying to find holes in my theory instead of trying to actually understand it. Because you literally explained how burst DPS works. 

Did I mention the part about "this seems confusing to me"?

To explain: as far as I've ever understood "burst damage", it's been in reference to on-demand instantaneous damage. This is in comparison to sustained damage. And you mention "burst damage" in reference to heavy attacks, which lack ramp-up, whereas sustained damage - I would think - is things with ramp-up like Blood Rush and Weeping Wounds. The sort of stuff that takes a bit to reach a higher DPS.

So when you mention giving firearms more burst damage, but pointing to scaling mods that I would tie closer to sustained rather than burst damage, I'm a touch confused. That doesn't mean your point is bad, it means I don't understand it.

Not everything is an attack. Sometimes someone just wants clarification.

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