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How to easily solve the Gun vs Melee dilemma


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49 minutes ago, Tyreaus said:

I think you should probably double-check the rest of what I wrote there, because I mentioned that I observe people leaning toward melee even in cases where Slash isn't a dominant factor. Basically: it's prominent in both high-level (i.e. Slash-dominant) and low-level missions. From what I can tell, it's because of the accessibility of Slash and the AoE of melee weapons, respectively.

Also, you didn't even answer the question.

Did I mention the part about "this seems confusing to me"?

To explain: as far as I've ever understood "burst damage", it's been in reference to on-demand instantaneous damage. This is in comparison to sustained damage. And you mention "burst damage" in reference to heavy attacks, which lack ramp-up, whereas sustained damage - I would think - is things with ramp-up like Blood Rush and Weeping Wounds. The sort of stuff that takes a bit to reach a higher DPS.

So when you mention giving firearms more burst damage, but pointing to scaling mods that I would tie closer to sustained rather than burst damage, I'm a touch confused. That doesn't mean your point is bad, it means I don't understand it.

Not everything is an attack. Sometimes someone just wants clarification.

Burst DPS = goes very high but can't be sustained for too long. 

Consistent DPS = literally a DPS that can be sustained indefinitely (can be high or low, it really depends on how you balance). 

By removing the Heavy Attacks functionality and giving something close to it to Guns. You would have Guns with much higher DPS potential, but can't be sustained for too long due to ammo efficiency. Meanwhile melees have less damage, but could be easily sustained because they don't cost anything.

That simple, that way your guns would cause more damage (which actually makes sense, even irl context), but they wouldn't be able to be sustained for too long due to ammo costs and ammo availability.

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On 2021-02-11 at 10:25 AM, (XBOX)GodMasterTP said:

If you don't know the difference between Sustained DPS and Burst DPS, not my problem. Also, if you can't correlate ideas in your head, that's called interpretation btw, that is not my problem too. I am not obligated to explain every detail, even the most basic ones, just because you're lacking in interpretation skills.

I'm pretty sure you're the one that just doesn't understand. I mean, really? "So we have to remove heavy attack spam"? It's pretty clear you don't even understand your own issue. Heavy attack spam isn't the reason why melee is overpowered. The combo stacks, the fact that melee is AOE, and mod interactions are.

Not only that but you're condescending to everyone who points that out. Before you bother taking the time to type out an insult next time make sure you know what you're talking about, you look pretty ignorant of the topic; having something like +660% cc blender deals more damage than dropping that to spam heavy.

 

 

On 2021-02-11 at 10:53 PM, (XBOX)GodMasterTP said:

Burst DPS = goes very high but can't be sustained for too long. 

Consistent DPS = literally a DPS that can be sustained indefinitely (can be high or low, it really depends on how you balance).

No, burst damage is how much damage it deals in a short time. Your definition of "Consistent DPS" can deal more damage than your definition of "Burst DPS" in a very short time, even just one attack when it comes to melee (just because something is labeled "heavy" doesn't mean it have a higher burst damage or per/attack damage).

Before you go on another insult spree get your facts straight, the one that needs to understand the topic is you.

Edited by SpringRocker
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12 hours ago, SpringRocker said:

It's pretty clear you don't even understand your own issue. Heavy attack spam isn't the reason why melee is overpowered.

And I never said it was, you created a problem in my argument just to present a solution that was never needed. Stop trying to roleplay the victim, that's ridiculous and doesn't bring nothing to the topic. 

12 hours ago, SpringRocker said:

The combo stacks, the fact that melee is AOE, and mod interactions are.

All of that can apply to heavy attacks, you act like Heavy Attacks aren't part of melee.

12 hours ago, SpringRocker said:

Not only that but you're condescending to everyone who points that out.

There's only 2 guys, including you, that pointed that out. Both are wrong tho because I never stated the problem was on Heavy Attacks. Stop trying to roleplay the victim, that's ridiculous and doesn't bring nothing to the topic.

12 hours ago, SpringRocker said:

having something like +660% cc blender deals more damage than dropping that to spam heavy.

No, it doesn't, that's why Glaive heavy attack spam is the meta for endurance, that's why people use heavy attack builds for Stropha and not combo builds to hunt eidolons. Heavy attack builds can reach much higher damage multipliers, some of them have 6 times more damage than basic attacks by default (also because initial combo exists, who would've thought? 🤡), having 100% less cc wouldn't mean nothing, but it turns around they can have more cc with a riven, up to 1100% if the dispostion is high enough. Even with 10 status effects on an enemy, it's very unlikely ANY combo build will ever surpass a heavy attack build in terms of damage, but that goes all over the window when you use CO with heavy attack builds.

It seems you don't know anything and on top of playing the victim, you're actually playing a clown too 🤡 honk honk entertain me more please 🤡🤡

12 hours ago, SpringRocker said:

No, burst damage is how much damage it deals in a short time.

But I am talking about Burst DPS, not Burst Damage. Burst Damage Per Second also includes the periodic nature of it, Burst Damage is just a single instance. 

Therefore when I say "Burst DPS", stating that it can't be sustained for too long is enough to explain it due to its periodic nature. Entertain me more 🤡

12 hours ago, SpringRocker said:

Your definition of "Consistent DPS" can deal more damage than your definition of "Burst DPS" in a very short time, even just one attack when it comes to melee (just because something is labeled "heavy" doesn't mean it have a higher burst damage or per/attack damage).

Tl;dr "Heavy attacks build have less DPS than combo builds" 🤡🤡🤡🤡🤡🤡 

I love that anyone can go test whatever you said in less than 5 minutes and prove you wrong, just by swapping mods 🤡🤡🤡🤡

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On 2021-02-09 at 10:17 PM, (XBOX)GodMasterTP said:

1) Melees should have less burst power (or at least, very stricted). So we have to remove heavy attack spam, sadly...I'll miss you Fragor Prime aka The Smash God. Honorable mention to Wolf Sledge aka ThorArrivesInWakanda.mp4.

2) Primaries/Secondaries should cause 2 times more damage by default, they also should have access to mods that give some kind of scaling like the ones that melees have currently. (This could also apply to archguns to an even higher degree, in normal gameplay they kinda feel like trash...except Mausolon, I love Mausolon)

3) Ammo drops should be more rare. To compensate that Guns now have a ton of damage. And by rare I mean...dude, good luck finding ammo even with mutation mods

I feel this is the wrong fix, and it totally ignores the variety we already have.

We have slow heavy high damage melee and rapid melee with lots of hits.

We have slow high damage single target guns and rapid fire or AoE weapons that sustain damage.

We have guns that regen ammo, guns that trade ammo for health, guns that have ammo economy problems and guns that never run out.

Making all melee weak but consistent and all guns burst damage occasionally takes all that variety away. 

There's a reason we almost never use archguns, making all guns act like archguns and archguns even more so is the wrong path.

On 2021-02-09 at 10:17 PM, (XBOX)GodMasterTP said:

That's it. Problem solved

It doesn't solve the problem at all - it just takes variety away. The only worthwhile melee become the rapid combo builders, the only worthwhile guns become the heavy hitters with great ammo economy.

I agree with this bit though:

On 2021-02-09 at 10:17 PM, (XBOX)GodMasterTP said:

2) Primaries/Secondaries should cause 2 times more damage by default, they also should have access to mods that give some kind of scaling like the ones that melees have currently

Yes, just that, stop there. Guns do as much damage as melee, players choose which they want to use, players choose whethe they want high single target, or high AoE, or high burst damage, or being able to sustain damage, or just CC or pre-procs or whatever.

This needs a fix because dominant melee ruines play variety, the fix cannot be restricting play variety more.

Edited by (XBOX)KayAitch
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This thread is the monkey paw of balancing: 'we heard your concerns about guns being too weak so now we buffed their damage by a lot but you can no longer use them because you just wont have ammo for it'.

I dont understand what's conceptually wrong with building for pure heavy attacks. You're giving up a lot of what makes melee powerful (weeping wounds, blood rush, arguably CO unless you are status priming every single enemy, fast attacking) so you should get something valuable out of it.

Warframe's main progression system is acquiring mods. Guns could do with a few more powerful ones (although I am not sure anything can salvage the trashpile that calls itself Veldt) but melee already gets it right. The reason many guns feel out of place however is the lack of enemies that want us to use guns over melee. 

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I feel there's a fundamental problem with trying to define separate functions for guns and melee, because at the end of the day, there isn't that much functional difference between those classes of weapons outside of range, and that's fine. Some people enjoy melee more than they do guns, or vice versa, and nobody specifically needs to be pushed one way or the other. In fact, it is the arbitrary separation of guns vs. melee that I think is responsible for the balancing problems between the two: back in Melee 2.0 and before Acolyte mods, melee sucked because it was balanced along fundamentally different lines from guns, an issue subsequent band-aid mods only worsened. Now, with Melee 3.0, melee continues to be balanced along fundamentally different lines, except now they got overbuffed, so the tables have turned. I therefore do believe the issue mostly boils down to damage and ease of use, and think both melee and guns need to be about equal on both counts.

If there is another issue, though, it's that while there's some way for melee to work off of guns, via status and Condition Overload, the reverse currently isn't true, which makes it easy for players to get stuck in melee and have reason to switch back: if the Lifted effect from ground slams gave some bonus to guns, that could potentially be a start, though there are likely other ways to make guns pick up on melee.

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7 hours ago, (XBOX)KayAitch said:

There's a reason we almost never use archguns, making all guns act like archguns and archguns even more so is the wrong path.

HAHAHAHAHAH he is seriously implying archguns deal damage. Congratulations, you've earned the benefit of being completely ignored from here on. 

6 hours ago, Drachnyn said:

we heard your concerns about guns being too weak so now we buffed their damage by a lot but you can no longer use them because you just wont have ammo for it'.

👉 Completely ignoring that the high damage functionality from Heavy Attacks was now implemented on guns and the reason why I chose to reduce ammo efficiency, is simply because Heavy Attack spam is much more powerful than combo builds, and it would be even more powerful on primaries due to the existance of Hunter Munitions, even more powerful on secondaries simply because their mods are already strong as hell. Also, multi-shot. 

🤡🤡🤡🤡🤡 entertain me more

6 hours ago, Drachnyn said:

I dont understand what's conceptually wrong with building for pure heavy attacks.

Having enough damage to one shot every living being and a bit less mobility vs Combo builds. Combo builds fall flat on endurance runs, while HA spam builds can survive even without using CO as long as they have innate status procs like slash/toxin.

Some heavy attack already have 6 times more damage than basic attacks, with no combo, with a mere Corrupted charge it goes to 12 times on top of mods like PPP/Sacrificial Pressure and CO. Heavy Attacks are OP as hell, but my problem was never with them, it's with melee covering literally EVERY OPTION possible, melee can: 

1) Have consistent DPS through combo builds, a lot of AoE and mobility.

2) Have stupidly high Burst DPS with Heavy Attacks by sacrificing a little bit of mobility. 

3) Have single target ranged damage with Gunblades. 

By passing the Burst DPS functionality to Guns, and removing it from melees. You not only fix Gunblades having trivialized Guns for ranged combat and boss fights in general, but you also fix melee covering every DPS option. Now things are divide with: 

1) Melees have low DPS, but they don't cost anything. 

2) Guns have high DPS, but they cost ammo (and this time, enough to be noticeable).

It's not complicated to get the real problem with the system, just improving the damage that guns cause won't fix anything, it will actually create more problems. Guns have more natural advantages than melees, if they just caused more damage, people would just go back to guns and abandon melees. Guns already have a big advantage that they trivialize movement speed, therefore you don't have to get close to enemies. 

Guns also pair much better with CC than melees, because as I said, you don't have to get close to enemies. If they had the same damage output as melees, people would simply jump right back to guns because even if you have (technically) less mobility with guns, you're probably taking less damage anyway simply because you wipe out everything in your line of sight much faster due to not needing movement speed.

No bro, you don't comprehend the technical problems that just buffing guns would bring. At least I explained some of them to you.

But you're free to offering a different alternative to removing HA from melees and putting them on guns.

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2 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

I feel there's a fundamental problem with trying to define separate functions for guns and melee, because at the end of the day, there isn't that much functional difference between those classes of weapons outside of range, and that's fine.

No it's not fine, that's why I created a difference between them with my suggestion. 

On E V E R Y single action game you ever play that has both melees and guns, they have different functions. You don't really need to be a genius to realize that nobody gives them the same functions for a God damn reason: guns have the natural advantage of range. 

Dude, to realize how wrong it is to even argue against it, just ask for yourself: who doesn't equip Primed Reach on their #*!%ing melees nowadays? Range is so good that it is almost a mandatory mod. Range is so good that gunblades completely trivialize primaries/secondaries for boss fights (and I would argue, for anything else in the game except for spamming status procs).

That's why it's just not correct to straight up buff guns, because then we would created another problem.

 

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vor 1 Stunde schrieb (XBOX)GodMasterTP:

It's not complicated to get the real problem with the system, just improving the damage that guns cause won't fix anything, it will actually create more problems. Guns have more natural advantages than melees, if they just caused more damage, people would just go back to guns and abandon melees. Guns already have a big advantage that they trivialize movement speed, therefore you don't have to get close to enemies. 

Now that's just not true. If guns did tons more damage right now people would still happily use melee because it is perfectly functional as it is right now and using melee right now is fun. Things dont need to be the absolute best to still be good. Even when the catchmoon was at the height of its power, melee wasnt in a bad spot as a whole. Same thing as with the kuva nukor now. (Do you want to buff their damage aswell btw?).

vor 2 Stunden schrieb (XBOX)GodMasterTP:

Guns also pair much better with CC than melees, because as I said, you don't have to get close to enemies. If they had the same damage output as melees, people would simply jump right back to guns because even if you have (technically) less mobility with guns, you're probably taking less damage anyway simply because you wipe out everything in your line of sight much faster due to not needing movement speed.

Melee already provides better CC than most guns have (the guns that are struggling with being used atleast). Between staggering enemies, slams and directional blocking you have to worry about very little actually. Shoutouts to hunter recovery and pack leader at this point aswell. Additionally ranged enemies then try to melee strike you which is a very inefficient use of their time. I really dont think a majority of people will corner peek every enemy when other fun options are perfectly viable and fun.

People didnt use melee in the pre BR era not because guns were better but because melee was trash. If melee hadnt been trash people would have used it regardless of if guns were better.

I'm also not quite sure how you are building your melee weapons that you think combo is outclassed by heavy so if you could further enlighten me that would be great because I prefer using heavy attacks anyway. Big numbers on a single hit are fun but you shouldnt forget about all the status procs a good combo weapon can put out in a short time. In the time it takes you wind up the heavy attack you have probably already attacked 3 or 4 times with a combo weapon.

vor 2 Stunden schrieb (XBOX)GodMasterTP:

2) Guns have high DPS, but they cost ammo (and this time, enough to be noticeable).

I have played games with low ammo eco and that was never the fun part. Using the gun you like for most of the time is a lot better than not being able to use it for most of the time.

vor 2 Stunden schrieb (XBOX)GodMasterTP:

Dude, to realize how wrong it is to even argue against it, just ask for yourself: who doesn't equip Primed Reach on their #*!%ing melees nowadays?

We dont equip primed reach to reach an enemy that is just outside base range but to cover a bigger area. We dont have a mod that makes regular bullets into catchmoon bullets or gives them kuva nukor chaining. Even if such a mod existed people would still use melee as it is right now because it's fun and effective.

 

What guns actually need are more enemies that encourage a ranged approach with pinpoint accuracy. Something like the nox. Pin point accuracy is important for this because guns with good AoE coverage already see heavy use. A damage buff to bullet based guns would not be a bad thing however. Not all guns need a buff though (looking at you, kuva nukor).

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50 minutes ago, Drachnyn said:

Pin point accuracy is important for this because guns with good AoE coverage already see heavy use.

these only see good usage if they deliver status procs, or in other words, a quick buff for melee.

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vor 1 Minute schrieb gbjbaanb:

these only see good usage if they deliver status procs, or in other words, a quick buff for melee.

Most enemies you regularly encounter (sorry I just dont care about your lvl 99999999999999 enemies) will not live to see the end of it if you hold the kuva nukor on them. Also remind me again why the catchmoon was nerfed because it sure as hell wasnt because it was the best at throwing out status procs.

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3 hours ago, (XBOX)GodMasterTP said:

No it's not fine, that's why I created a difference between them with my suggestion. 

On E V E R Y single action game you ever play that has both melees and guns, they have different functions. You don't really need to be a genius to realize that nobody gives them the same functions for a God damn reason: guns have the natural advantage of range. 

Wait, so there needs to be some systemic difference between guns and melee... just because that's what some other games do? Why do those games do that? And, more importantly, are those reasons salient to Warframe? Because outside of that, I don't see why there needs to be that kind of divide.

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4 hours ago, Drachnyn said:

People didnt use melee in the pre BR era not because guns were better but because melee was trash. If melee hadnt been trash people would have used it regardless of if guns were better.

I won't even bother saying more than the necessary. Just so you notice how your arguments don't make sense, and please, instead of going right back to a response (like the other guys who clearly don't want to understand anything), take a minute to think about this:

👉🏽 You say that people would use melees anyway because of their other functionalities even while having less damage. 

👉🏽 Your claim actually proves my point. Because if nobody is using guns, it's not because of damage, but rather because they have worse functionalities.

👉🏽 Therefore my suggestion actually makes much more sense. Since it removes a functionality from melees and puts it on guns.

Also: If you think Heavy Attack builds cause less damage, you're probably not building correctly. There's 0 reason to bother about applying status with melee unless it's a slash proc (or just something that causes damage in general). The current meta revolves around using primers to support melee, not combo builds specifically. As long as your melee has guaranteed slash procs or something that causes damage, it's enough to be better than combo builds. Btw, most weapons when built for heavy attacks have a ×12 multiplier on basic damage, that means your combo build DPS would never surpass heavy attack DPS unless you could attack 12 times in at a max of 1,5s (counting wind up).

So, NO. The only explanations I have for your point of view are: 

1) Your build is trash. 10% chance of being true, it's very hard to not make a decent HA build. 

2) You forgot that CO works with Heavy Attack builds. 20% chance to be true. That would be too stupid but no so far from what I've seen from this community. 

3) You're only playing on sortie level and never touched Steel Path, so you don't actually notice the DPS difference in practice but only the KPS (Kills p/s) difference, and since combo builds are faster and more mobile...I think you got it already. 70% chance do be true.

3 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

Wait, so there needs to be some systemic difference between guns and melee... just because that's what some other games do? Why do those games do that? And, more importantly, are those reasons salient to Warframe? Because outside of that, I don't see why there needs to be that kind of divide.

If you need that much of an explanation, I wonder if you'll even understand if I explain.

To understand the basics, just think about the differences in speed between melees and guns. Let's assume you're using X melee and Y gun, both have exactly the same DPS, enough to kill each enemy in exactly 2 hits or 2 shots.

You encounter 5 groups of enemies (the quantity of enemies p/group is irrelevant) and they're all 30m away from you, and 10m away from each other. All of them are in your line of sight. 

Which weapon do you think would kill all 5 groups faster, X or Y? You don't need to answer, of course it's Y, the gun. Since they have the same DPS, but with the melee you'd have to run a total of 70m, while with the gun you wouldn't even need to move. 

"But with melee you'd have more mobility!!! therefore taking less hits!!!" 

That's just false. If you consider the big difference they would have in clear time, the mobility just wouldn't help the melee because mobility is not omnipotent, therefore you would take hits, just LESS hits. But since with the gun you'd kill much faster, you would end up taking less hits anyway just because you killed everything much faster.

From where do you think the motto "killing is the best CC" came?

Edited by (XBOX)GodMasterTP
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vor 16 Stunden schrieb (XBOX)GodMasterTP:

That's why it's just not correct to straight up buff guns, because then we would created another problem.

 

True, but removing H.A. will solve nothing.

The people then play only combo counter melee builds.

Congratulations!! you have killed diversity & fun.

 

 

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11 hours ago, (XBOX)GodMasterTP said:

If you need that much of an explanation, I wonder if you'll even understand if I explain.

Insulting other people's intelligence is generally not how you begin an explanation, nor how you convey a point across in a civil debate.

Quote

To understand the basics, just think about the differences in speed between melees and guns. Let's assume you're using X melee and Y gun, both have exactly the same DPS, enough to kill each enemy in exactly 2 hits or 2 shots.

You encounter 5 groups of enemies (the quantity of enemies p/group is irrelevant) and they're all 30m away from you, and 10m away from each other. All of them are in your line of sight. 

Which weapon do you think would kill all 5 groups faster, X or Y? You don't need to answer, of course it's Y, the gun. Since they have the same DPS, but with the melee you'd have to run a total of 70m, while with the gun you wouldn't even need to move. 

"But with melee you'd have more mobility!!! therefore taking less hits!!!" 

That's just false. If you consider the big difference they would have in clear time, the mobility just wouldn't help the melee because mobility is not omnipotent, therefore you would take hits, just LESS hits. But since with the gun you'd kill much faster, you would end up taking less hits anyway just because you killed everything much faster.

From where do you think the motto "killing is the best CC" came?

Sure, but what does that have to do with the discussion at hand? You might have me confused with some other person you've been arguing with on this thread, because I never requested to balance guns and melee to have the exact same DPS, nor did I ever make the argument that melee gives more mobility, which I agree with you isn't really true. I merely questioned the need to establish systemic differences between guns and melee, which I don't think the above answers at all.

Edited by Teridax68
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vor 11 Stunden schrieb (XBOX)GodMasterTP:

I won't even bother saying more than the necessary. Just so you notice how your arguments don't make sense, and please, instead of going right back to a response (like the other guys who clearly don't want to understand anything), take a minute to think about this:

👉🏽 You say that people would use melees anyway because of their other functionalities even while having less damage. 

👉🏽 Your claim actually proves my point. Because if nobody is using guns, it's not because of damage, but rather because they have worse functionalities.

👉🏽 Therefore my suggestion actually makes much more sense. Since it removes a functionality from melees and puts it on guns.

Also: If you think Heavy Attack builds cause less damage, you're probably not building correctly. There's 0 reason to bother about applying status with melee unless it's a slash proc (or just something that causes damage in general). The current meta revolves around using primers to support melee, not combo builds specifically. As long as your melee has guaranteed slash procs or something that causes damage, it's enough to be better than combo builds. Btw, most weapons when built for heavy attacks have a ×12 multiplier on basic damage, that means your combo build DPS would never surpass heavy attack DPS unless you could attack 12 times in at a max of 1,5s (counting wind up).

So, NO. The only explanations I have for your point of view are: 

1) Your build is trash. 10% chance of being true, it's very hard to not make a decent HA build. 

2) You forgot that CO works with Heavy Attack builds. 20% chance to be true. That would be too stupid but no so far from what I've seen from this community. 

3) You're only playing on sortie level and never touched Steel Path, so you don't actually notice the DPS difference in practice but only the KPS (Kills p/s) difference, and since combo builds are faster and more mobile...I think you got it already. 70% chance do be true.

First of all, yes i dont waste my time with 69 hour survivals. Steel path is only fun for the enemy density and occasionally disruption missions (the only mission that gets more interesting if you slap EHP increases on the enemy). Survival just bores me out of my mind. But max level has never been a design concern, it's just irrelevant. There is nothing to gain there except for the circle jerking of endurance runners. Give me a mission that starts at max level and maybe all of this becomes a little bit relevant.

I meant people would still use melee (even if it was the less damaging option but still effective) because melee right now is fun. You can have fun with something that is not absolutely meta as long as it's still effective in its own right. This is important because there will always be something that is objectively the best in a given situation. It's okay for something else to be not quite as powerful. There is no need to remove functionality from melee at all. What we need is more interesting enemies. Demolysts and Lich both become more dangerous if you mindlessly stay close. Nox units encourage hitting its weakpoint with a precise weapon (i think they should have more DR on body shots). Some of the infested enemies have interesting auras. Enemy design is the thing that needs to get expanded.

I enjoy heavy attack builds a lot, it's a different playstyle than babysitting your combo counter. And big number is just a way of thinking in games anyway. You would just kill build variety when there are much better solutions. Some guns could do with a few buffs however but definitely not at the cost of ammo economy (look at you, veldt).

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all i have to say on the subject is SPACE NINJAS <--- hello the game is ninjas in space ninjas don't use guns why are you trying to encourage gun use I'm American I love my guns but this is a game based on Ninjas...

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On 2021-02-15 at 4:14 PM, Claimingkarma said:

hello the game is ninjas in space ninjas don't use guns

no, they use throwing stars and similar stealth weapons. They do not use nikanas like a space samurai, or spiked boxing gloves. This is not a space Samurai game, its space ninjas. Those secondary ranged 'guns' are where the game should be at by your definition.

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Melee heavy attack ain't an issue, it implies either being limited to ×2 combo mult (corrupted charge) or investment in heavy attack efficiency.

The real issues are forced slash proc (because slash is OP), condition overload damage bonus, weeping wounds (because slash is OP), and blood rush.

Nerf viral, nerf slash, nerf condition overload and blood rush. It would be enough to have a better balance between melee and guns. Then see if casual players can deal with it or if NPC needs to be less spongy. In a team with buffers (roar, vex armor, mag bubble) / debuffers (sonar, chakram, nova 4th) even with those nerfs the game should still be payable.

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On 2021-02-15 at 4:14 PM, Claimingkarma said:

all i have to say on the subject is SPACE NINJAS <--- hello the game is ninjas in space ninjas don't use guns why are you trying to encourage gun use I'm American I love my guns but this is a game based on Ninjas...

Ninja didn't fight anybody if they could help it, because they were shorter-than-average, unarmoured people with small, easily transported and usually jerry-rigged weapons (if they were carrying them at all) and no superpowers going up against entire guard patrols professional soldiers in full armour.

So not only did they absolutely use guns if they could get their hands on them whilst running for dear life, the Tenno, bloodthirsty six-foot super-soldiers who's skin is armour and have enough space magic to level a small continent have already somewhat disqualified themselves from ninjadom.

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12 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

no superpowers

Spoiler

vanish where did you go GIFMaybe a few tricks.

 

13 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

disqualified themselves from ninjadom

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ninjas GIFAgreed. We can fly around a lot, but we can pretty much tank anything. Not exactly the "ninja way".

I don't like it, but I look at the evolution of Warframe like this:

u9pxh91yyco31.png

Credit to: artevalentinapaz

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On 2021-02-19 at 11:28 AM, LillyRaccune said:
  Reveal hidden contents

vanish where did you go GIFMaybe a few tricks.

 

  Reveal hidden contents

ninjas GIFAgreed. We can fly around a lot, but we can pretty much tank anything. Not exactly the "ninja way".

I don't like it, but I look at the evolution of Warframe like this:

u9pxh91yyco31.png

Credit to: artevalentinapaz

love it that comic tickles me insides

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On 2021-02-10 at 9:50 PM, (PSN)haphazardlynamed said:

Risk and Reward....

Its fine for a melee to be a OHK in lots of games, because its usually balanced by incredibly short range vs guns.

In warframe, this balance is nonexistant because enemies don't pose any significant risk to us regardless of range, and our Frames are flying beyblades of death that close any distance instantly.

that tenno put it right quite good.

in about every combat situation (that isn't like warframe...) melee is a good way when either finding oneself in close quarter fights either by mistake or by choice - but it's very dangerous because you'll be exposed to other enemies at range (again, if you forget the jedi-melee blocking nonsense we have in warframe - not that don't like this nonsense too, mind you). so usually, melee is the way of 'silently' disposing ones opponents when you have a drop on them (and no, silencers are not as good since they still are quite loud compared to a 'blade in the dark'). but again, this isn't usefull in warframe where stealth is sadly broken when you're not using invisibility and ofc, since we usually don't care much about cover either, there isn't much different (technically) about melee fighting in warframe and the use of close quarter range weaponary (your shotgun, so to speak).

this is something DE tried multiple times to 'fix' but always kinda failed in doing so, likely because of them wanting to keep the original idea they had when developing the game... i don't want to say the result is bad or anything (it isn't or else i wouldn't played it as long as i have) but it makes it nigh impossible now to change the 'problem' of melee versus range vs ability we witness in nowadays warframe game.

as for the OP's suggestions, i agree with some but in total, it won't solve the core-problem of it - it will only end in migrating it yet another time (which doesn't mean it might be fun in a new way though)

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