Making Frost a proper area denial tank: Critique + Rework

[Teridax68]

Part 1: Critique

It is generally known at this point that Frost is one of those warframes who's kind of fallen to the wayside over the years. He's not by any means the worst warframe out there, but he's certainly struggled to remain relevant in a game that has left him behind for a while. His design has aged imperfectly in three key respects:

• He's consistently second-rate to other frames, especially Limbo: Once upon a time, Frost was the best objective defender around thanks to his bubble, and was also known for his crowd control. Now, many other frames outperform him in his key contributions: Limbo in particular defends objectives better thanks to his own damage-immune bubble, outputs better and more consistent crowd control thanks to Statis's long-duration stun, and has more survivability and damage thanks to his rift mechanics. There's nothing Frost excels at anymore, so he spends most of his time in the shadow of other frames these days.
• Most of his kit is redundant and too niche: a common problem with older warframe designs is how their abilities overlap in effects and function, and this problem is particularly bad with Frost. Freeze and Ice Wave do nothing Avalanche can't do (at least, not without their augments), which means his builds tend to revolve almost entirely around pressing one button. Snow Globe is arguably what the frame is best known for, and the ability is only really useful in a handful of mission types, further limiting his capabilities in a game where frames are now designed to be more versatile.
• His stats are awkward: Frost has low base Energy despite needing to spam his Snow Globe to make the most use of the ability, and sits in-between above-average base shields and an armor scaling on his 3, even though armor and shields don't interact at all with one another. The end result is a frame who's not nearly as durable as his stats and kit would suggest.

Effectively, Frost's been overtaken by other frames, and is held back by old-timey design and stats that make him feel like he's only got half a kit. There's a niche somewhere within him, but it needs to be brought out through tweaks: personally, I'd support altering his design in the manner outlined below to make him a tank with strong area denial and crowd control.

Part 2: Rework

Detailed changes are listed below, but as a TL;DR, here is the outline:

• Base shields and Energy increased.
• Passive changed to have Frost freeze enemies hit over time, which all of his abilities dip into.
• Freeze pierces through enemies, recharges Frost's shields for each enemy hit, and can generate overshields.
• Ice Wave's augment is made baseline, also creates a large area that progressively freezes enemies in it over time via Frost's passive.
• Snow Globe changed more drastically:
  • As a baseline, creates a bubble around Frost that follows him around and deals percentage health damage to enemies inside, which freezes them via his passive.
  • Augment makes the bubble static and buffs its durability based on Frost's armor, i.e. regular bubble.
  • Bubble health and scaling changed: no longer spammable, has a duration, and bubble uses Frost's shields with bonus damage reduction.
• Avalanche no longer instantly freezes enemies, instead creates two radial pulses: first pulse reduces enemy shields and armor, second pulse deals damage scaling with enemy level. Frozen enemies propagate both pulses when hit.

Key goals here are to give each ability a purpose, and give Frost both more versatility and standout contributions: with these changes, he should be able to lock down areas and choke points, tanking enemies through his shields as he does, but should also be able to put his entire kit to use outside of missions with defense objectives.

Part 2.5: Rework Details

(Disclaimer: numbers are placeholder, and only meant to give a general idea of the underlying effects. The truly balanced numbers would likely look very different)

Stats

Spoiler

Current:

• Base shields: 150 - 450 (175 - 525 on Prime)
• Base Energy: 100 - 150

New:

• Base shields: 250 - 750 (275 - 825 on Prime)
• Base Energy: 150 - 225 (175 - 262.5 on Prime)

Passive

Spoiler

Current: Any melee assailant that strikes Frost has a 10% chance to be temporarily frozen for 20 seconds on impact.

New: Enemies damaged by Frost receive 1 stack of Cold status every 0.2 seconds until maximum stacks are reached. Frost can apply up to 11 stacks of Cold, rather than 10: at 11 stacks, enemies are frozen solid for the duration of the status effect.

• Applies from any source of damage, including weapons, abilities, and mods, so long as Frost is the one to deal it.
• Because the effect lasts as long as the enemy has 11 Cold status stacks, the freeze duration is affected by status duration.

Freeze

Spoiler

Current: Frost launches an icy projectile in the direction of the reticle, traveling until it reaches an enemy or a surface. The projectile deals 150 / 225 / 275 / 350  Cold damage to an enemy if hit directly and freezes them in place for 5 / 7 / 12 / 15 seconds. Inflicts 50 / 100 / 125 / 150  Cold damage with a 600% status chance to all enemies within a radius of 3 meters from the impact point.

New: Frost launches a 45° cone of icy projectiles, centered around his reticle, that punches through enemies hit, dealing 150 / 225 / 275 / 350 Cold damage with a 500 / 700 / 900 / 1100% status chance and 75 / 100 / 125 / 150% increased status duration. Each enemy frozen this way restores Frost's shields by 7.5 / 10 / 12.5 / 15% of their maximum.

• Damage and shield restoration are affected by Ability Strength.
• Cone angle is affected by Ability Range.
• Status duration increase is affected by Ability Duration.
• Shield restoration can generate overshields.

Ice Wave

Spoiler

Current: Frost sends forth a wave of ice shards that deals 300 / 445 / 565 / 700 Cold damage with a 600% status chance to all targets in its area of effect. The wave has an initial width of 1.5 / 2 / 2.5 / 3 meters, disperses at a 30 / 35 / 40 / 45° angle, and travels over a distance of 10 / 12 / 17 / 20 meters.

New: Frost sends forth a 1.5 / 2 / 2.5 / 3-meter wide trail of ice shards that explodes into a 7.5 / 10 / 12.5 / 15-meter radius circular area upon hitting an enemy or terrain, dealing 300 / 445 / 565 / 700 Cold damage to enemies hit. The trail and area then persist for 9 / 11 / 13 / 15 seconds, dealing 75 / 100 / 125 / 150 Cold damage each second to enemies in contact with them.

• Damage is affected by Ability Strength.
• Trail width and area radius are affected by Ability Range.
• Trail and area duration are affected by Ability Duration.
• Cast duration and delay removed, ability is now a one-handed animation.
• Casting the ability dissipates the previous cast's trail and area.

New Augment - Ice Skating: Frost and his allies gain 50 / 100 / 150 / 200% increased sprint and slide speed and 100% friction reduction while in contact with the trail and area.

• Speed modifier is affected by Ability Strength.
• Friction reduction is not affected by mods, and does not stack with other sources of friction reduction.
• Can be equipped in the Exilus slot.

Snow Globe

Spoiler

Current: Frost creates a protective globe of ice with a diameter of 10 meters, a base health of 3000 / 4000 / 4500 / 5000, and additional health equal to 500% of Frost's base armor bonuses. Upon activation, the globe is invulnerable for 1 / 2 / 3 / 4 seconds. Incoming damage that is absorbed during the invulnerability period is converted into health and added to the globe's health. Costs 50 Energy.

New: Frost projects his shields as a 3-meter radius bubble centered on him that intercepts incoming hits, redirecting the damage to his shields and giving them an additional 20 / 30 / 40 / 50% damage reduction. The bubble holds for 10 / 15 / 20 / 25 seconds, renders Frost immune to status, knockdowns, and staggers, and deals Cold damage to enemies inside equal to 9 / 11 / 13 / 15% of their current health (minimum 1) each second. The bubble disappears while Frost's shields are depleted, but reappears when fully recharged. Costs 75 Energy.

• Bonus damage reduction and damage are affected by Ability Strength.
• Bubble radius is affected by Ability Range.
• Duration is affected by Ability Duration.
• Bonus damage reduction is capped at 65%, for a total of 90% damage reduction while shields are active.
• Unlike the current version, bubble does not block allies or Frost.
• Ability can be ended early by recasting it while it is active at no cost.
• Ability is now a one-handed animation.

New Augment - Glacial Globe: Bubble remains stationary once deployed, and has its own independent health equal to Frost's shields plus 200 / 300 / 400 / 500% of his armor.

• Armor multiplier is affected by Ability Strength.
• Bubble still benefits from Frost's shield regeneration and restoration, including overshields.

Avalanche

Spoiler

Current: Frost summons an avalanche to crash down around him, striking all surrounding enemies within 8 / 10 / 12 / 15 meters with a 600% Cold status chance. Shortly after, an icy pulse rapidly expands over the area, freezing enemies in place and reducing their current armor by 25 / 30 / 35 / 40% for 5 / 6 / 7 / 8 seconds. When the pulse dissipates, frozen enemies are immediately dealt 800 / 1000 / 1200 / 1500 Cold damage. If an enemy dies from the sheer cold, they violently shatter upon death, dealing 100 / 200 / 300 / 400 Cold damage to enemies in a 3 / 3.5 / 4 / 4.5 meter radius.

New: Frost generates a pulse that reduces the armor and shields of enemies within 9 / 11 / 13 / 15 meters by 20 / 30 / 40 / 50% for 7 / 8 / 9 / 10 seconds. After 1 second, an avalanche crashes down upon the affected area, dealing 100 / 150 / 200 / 250 Cold damage to enemies hit, multiplied by enemy level. Frozen enemies recast the ability, centered on themselves, when hit by either pulse.

• Armor reduction, shield reduction, and damage are affected by Ability Strength, though the enemy level multiplier isn't affected by mods.
• Pulse and avalanche radii are affected by Ability Range.
• Armor and shield reduction duration are affected by Ability Duration.
• Enemies who recast the ability damage themselves again with their own avalanche, but the armor and shield reduction does not stack.
• Recasted pulses can also trigger recasts on frozen enemies, allowing the ability to propagate infinitely, though each enemy can only propagate the ability once. 
• Ability is now a one-handed animation.

Part 3: Conclusion + Q&A

To wrap things up: Frost is an old frame whose kit has aged somewhat poorly, but at the same time I think he has all the necessary foundations to be an excellent frame. His theme gives a lot to work with, and despite their overlap, his abilities all have some degree of flavor, especially when factoring in some augments. With a few tweaks in the right direction, I think the frame could feel a lot better to play, and would be able to stand out from the rest in his own respects.

Just to anticipate some potential questions and/or comments, I've assembled a Q&A, which I recommend reading just in case:

Spoiler

Q: Why change Snow Globe so much when it's Frost's most popular ability?

A: Snow Globe is useful (in some missions), and arguably Frost's strongest current effect, but I'd argue not all that fun to use: it requires a degree of spam to work properly, and after that, objective defense just becomes a matter of hanging around the objective and spamming 3 whenever the bubble drops low or enemies walk into it. Given the rest of his kit, the ability is also kinda just.... there. I think it would benefit the ability to make it more general-purpose as a baseline (and then let players opt into the more niche, OG objective defense version via the augment), but also have its upkeep depend more on using other abilities, namely Freeze, rather than spam. It would also help to let it make Frost genuinely tankier, as he's currently kinda squishy despite having such a strong defensive ability, mainly because nobody's going to stay still for long inside their bubble in a mobility-heavy game like Warframe.

---

Q: Why remove the radial freeze from Avalanche? Isn't that part of its main appeal right now?

A: The issue there is simple: if Frost can freeze everyone around him instantly with his 4, he has no reason to use his 1. Thus, either his 4 instantly freezes people, and his 1 does something else, or his 1 becomes the go-to for freezing stuff, and his 4 has a different function. I opted for the latter, because Avalanche has armor reduction built in already, and clearly has a lot more damage attached to it than Freeze, itself an ability made to apply hard crowd control. With the above, Frost would be able to use Freeze to insta-freeze enemies and recharge/overcharge his shields (and could also build for range to freeze more enemies in front of him), while his 4 would be a radial nuke/vulnerability debuff. Technically speaking, his 4 would still be able to freeze enemies, due to the new passive, it just wouldn't be instant like his 1.

---

Q: The listed damage for Avalanche is so low! How come?

A: Because it's multiplied by the target enemy's level. Against a level 10 enemy, the damage would be multiplied by 10 (so 2500 damage, not counting other mods); against a level 100 enemy, the damage would be multiplied by 100 (so 25,000 damage), and so on. This means the ability would only deal the listed base damage against a level 1 enemy, and would otherwise scale along very similar lines to Vauban's Flechette Orb and Photon Strike.

---

Q: If Frost is meant to be a shield tank, why keep the Avalanche augment in its current state?

A: The above rework kind of does make the Avalanche augment redundant for Frost, but given that players like using it, and it gives ally utility, I'd rather not fix what ain't broke in that particular case.

---

Q: The numbers on the rework are far too much of a buff and/or nerf! Unplayable 0/10.

A: ... yes. But seriously, though, the numbers could be anything in practice, so if they seem too high or too low, try nudging them around and see what would be more reasonable. The goal here isn't to make Frost the most power-creeped frame in the game (though he could probably use a buff, and the above certainly isn't intended to be a nerf), so if the numbers are off, that's not at all intentional.

---

Q: Why make Frost a shield tank? Doesn't his 3 scale with armor?

A: Frost has above-average shields in addition to above-average armor, and armor arguably doesn't make sense as the core stat for a frame whose defenses are based on blocking damage before it gets to his health. Thus, I think it would make sense to make Frost a shield tank, give him tools to help him with that, and then add an option for armor scaling via the augment on his 3 (which would make more sense there, as he wouldn't be able to use the bubble to shield himself consistently, as is the case now).

---

Q: What's the deal with making all of Frost's animations one-handed? Isn't he meant to be a slow, icy frame?

A: This is possibly more of a personal preference thing, but I really dislike animation locks. It's awkward to have to constantly stop and stun oneself when casting abilities in Warframe, and I don't think it makes any sense to have to do that in the middle of our parkour. I'd much rather make abilities much smoother to cast, which I think should also make them feel a lot more responsive, and then implement different degrees of speed via the abilities themselves. In the case of Frost, having a delay on some of his abilities' key functions, e.g. the freeze from his passive, the area spread on his 2, the damage on his 4, I think would do a better job of conveying his "slow as ice" theme than animation locks.

---

Q: That Ice Wave augment is useless!

A: Probably. I hadn't come up with any other particularly interesting replacements for the current augment, and figured super-Maglev shenanigans could be fun and appropriate for an ice rink ability, so if the augment were an Exilus mod... why not.

---

Q: This isn't Frost, this is a completely different warframe! Why do you hate Frost so much?

A: If you truly feel like typing this kind of comment, I would very much appreciate an explanation as to how my changes would break from Frost's identity. I genuinely tried to stay as close to the original kit as possible with the above changes, which is why the abilities are intended to function largely in the same way (i.e. freezing blast on 1, wave of ice on 2, delayed radial damage on 4). My implementation is almost certainly not perfect, but the honest intent here is to have the Frost we have now, plus some tweaks and additions (with maybe some heavier changes on Snow Globe), rather than a frame that plays completely differently and does completely different things.

And that should do it! Thank you for reading this far. What do you think of the above? What are your general thoughts on Frost, and how would you personally like to see him change, if at all?

[maycne.sonahoz]

50 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

I'd support altering his design in the manner outlined below to make him a tank with strong area denial and crowd control

This overall summarizes the changes you suggest, and is also the reason i'm against this. I like using Frost for defense type missions, and i'd like to keep doing that.

I have seen some explaining "how to use Frost" and complaining that many (if not most) players use him to put a Snow Globe on a defense target and then stay inside with it. Your rework basically forces them to do exactly that as the base.
Granted, you also changed its augment to make it stationary. In order to stay closer to the current kit, i'd rather invert the behavior so it stays stationary by default.

Your suggestion to make the bubble disappear when Frost's shields deplete works also against this. It basically means that if the situation worsens to the point you can't keep shields at all, you can't either protect the defense target with your abilities.

Furthermore, if we go about "outperforming", a strong contender to your rework's Snow Globe would be Zephyr's Turbulence. The latter does not provide damage reduction, status immunity or passive damage, but it simply repeals all incoming projectiles.

[DrivaMain]

1 hour ago, maycne.sonahoz said:

This overall summarizes the changes you suggest, and is also the reason i'm against this. I like using Frost for defense type missions, and i'd like to keep doing that.

Then just use him according to your play style. That's why modding exist.

The Goal of OP's rework proposal is to make frost more up to date to the current state of the game where DPS and constant mobility is king.

I do agree on your part where the arbitrary shield depletion will make this ability useless in high level where your shields are constantly depleted. Snow Globe should only have a health value as a balancing mechanic instead.

[maycne.sonahoz]

43 minutes ago, DrivaMain said:

Then just use him according to your play style. That's why modding exist.

That reply could also work on many rework suggestions. :p

[(PSN)Frost_Nephilim]

5 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

Passive

Ok

5 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

Freeze

I dont really feel shields is fitting, health and armor maybe but normal shields seems off. Cold usually has a negative effect on shields which is why mods like "Warm Coat" exist

I also feel that way about the stat changes that increase base shields as opposed to health

5 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

Ice Wave

This sounds okay, i prefer more scaling damage tho, to the point where i can eventually shatter any enemy with it, even if the build up is long.

5 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

Snow Globe

 

5 hours ago, maycne.sonahoz said:

i'd rather invert the behavior so it stays stationary by default

100% agree here, like 100. Disrespecting current Frost lovers by making this beautiful ability a augment. Trying to mess up our builds for what?

 

Also, 1,000 times no to snowglobe disappearing when shields are depleted! The globes bad enough jeez

5 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

Avalanche

I think the idea to include shields in this 1 is a beautiful idea and makes loads of sense. 

However

Removal of radial freeze i both dislike and find unnecessary. 

 

Id give the rework a 5.8/10 as it stands right now. Its nice but does a few things that get under my skin

[Teridax68]

5 hours ago, maycne.sonahoz said:

I have seen some explaining "how to use Frost" and complaining that many (if not most) players use him to put a Snow Globe on a defense target and then stay inside with it. Your rework basically forces them to do exactly that as the base.

But it doesn't as the base, because the globe follows Frost, not the objective. If you wanted static defense, you'd be better off using the augment, or using his other abilities to help defend.

Quote

Granted, you also changed its augment to make it stationary. In order to stay closer to the current kit, i'd rather invert the behavior so it stays stationary by default.

This is actually covered in the Q&A:

6 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

 

  Hide contents

Q: Why change Snow Globe so much when it's Frost's most popular ability?

A: Snow Globe is useful (in some missions), and arguably Frost's strongest current effect, but I'd argue not all that fun to use: it requires a degree of spam to work properly, and after that, objective defense just becomes a matter of hanging around the objective and spamming 3 whenever the bubble drops low or enemies walk into it. Given the rest of his kit, the ability is also kinda just.... there. I think it would benefit the ability to make it more general-purpose as a baseline (and then let players opt into the more niche, OG objective defense version via the augment), but also have its upkeep depend more on using other abilities, namely Freeze, rather than spam. It would also help to let it make Frost genuinely tankier, as he's currently kinda squishy despite having such a strong defensive ability, mainly because nobody's going to stay still for long inside their bubble in a mobility-heavy game like Warframe.

 

I also outlined the issue at the beginning of the post: having an ability that's good in objective defense and useless everywhere else is one of the reasons why Frost feels like half a frame or less in most missions. Having a niche shouldn't mean having a stunted kit outside of that niche.

Quote

Your suggestion to make the bubble disappear when Frost's shields deplete works also against this. It basically means that if the situation worsens to the point you can't keep shields at all, you can't either protect the defense target with your abilities.

You'd have to build and play pretty awfully for that to happen, because A) Frost would have massive base shields, second only to Hildryn's, B) The bubble would provide significant damage reduction, and C) Frost would be able to replenish large amounts of his shields instantly with his 1. Were you to play the frame normally, the bubble would stay up just fine, and you'd still be able to bring it back up from 0 to full through his abilities even in ultra-high level missions.

Quote

Furthermore, if we go about "outperforming", a strong contender to your rework's Snow Globe would be Zephyr's Turbulence. The latter does not provide damage reduction, status immunity or passive damage, but it simply repeals all incoming projectiles.

Snow Globe doesn't provide immunity to incoming projectiles, nor can be augmented to increase one's movement and projectile speed. You're comparing apples and oranges here.

3 hours ago, DrivaMain said:

I do agree on your part where the arbitrary shield depletion will make this ability useless in high level where your shields are constantly depleted. Snow Globe should only have a health value as a balancing mechanic instead.

I'm not sure where the idea is coming from here that the above shields would get constantly depleted. Hildryn does just fine in higher levels, and she doesn't get 90% innate damage reduction to her own shields. My proposal for Frost may not give him as many base shields as Hildryn, but it does give him means of significantly increasing his durability while shielded, as well as a means of instantly replenishing large portions of his shields and granting himself overshields.

Just to give a bit of math here: at 750 base shields, and 90% damage reduction on shields, Frost would have 7500 hit points' worth of shields. Hildryn, at 1575 base shields and 25% damage reduction on shields, would have 2100 hit points' worth of shields. Due to the increased multiplier from the damage reduction, this difference increases even further when factoring in shield mods and overshields. In this respect, I may have in fact significantly overtuned the buffs to Frost's shields.

30 minutes ago, (PSN)IIFrost_GhostII said:

I dont really feel shields is fitting, health and armor maybe but normal shields seems off. Cold usually has a negative effect on shields which is why mods like "Warm Coat" exist

I also feel that way about the stat changes that increase base shields as opposed to health

Covered this in the Q&A: Frost isn't really a frame who wants to rely on armor for durability, because that means enemies have gone through his bubble and his shields, and he has no means of giving himself defenses after that. By contrast, higher shields, and tying shields and the bubble together, would make him an actual tank, whereas the amount of armor that would be needed to make him a proper tank would be absurd. The fact that cold affects shields especially I think justifies this all the more thematically, as I think it could highlight Frost's control over cold.

Quote

This sounds okay, i prefer more scaling damage tho, to the point where i can eventually shatter any enemy with it, even if the build up is long.

Avalanche deals scaling damage.

Quote

100% agree here, like 100. Disrespecting current Frost lovers by making this beautiful ability a augment. Trying to mess up our builds for what?

This is also in the Q&A. If you love the ability as is, you'd still be able to have it, the baseline ability would just be the more commonly useful of the two, and the augment would unlock the more niche use, as should be the case for any frame ability and augment. As it stands, if you're using the 3 for objective defense, you ought to be using the augment anyway, so this shouldn't mess up your build.

Quote

Also, 1,000 times no to snowglobe disappearing when shields are depleted! The globes bad enough jeez

Unlike the current version, the globe could be recharged, which given the shield restore on Freeze should not be a difficult task. I did some math above, but TL;DR the globe would have significantly increased baseline durability and strong scaling with shield mods compared to the current ability, without having to be spam-casted to be worth something, and would be recharged automatically just by playing normally, instead of requiring a refresh, so you'd be able to maintain your globe from a distance and not have to babysit it.

 

[(PSN)Frost_Nephilim]

3 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

Frost isn't really a frame who wants to rely on armor for durability

Yea thats what im saying, fix that the other way by making him a frame that wants to rely on armor 

3 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

The fact that cold affects shields especially I think justifies this all the more thematically, as I think it could highlight Frost's control over cold

What? Thats like saying that ember shows control over fire by it getting hotter when in the water

Cause water does to fire what cold does to shields

I cant see the logic youre making from this 🤔

8 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

Avalanche deals scaling damage.

Thats why i said i like the way ice wave shatters enemies. 

Also avalanche doesnt need to scale anymore than already does. Armor is massive, shield is massive, damage too? I think if you are going to go for damage, it atleast needs to be a build up. Modded right, avalanche becomes way more nuke than it already was as you have it currently. The people that be crying about having nothing to kill would throw a tantrum

Even if the damage numbers are just a place holder.

16 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

more commonly useful

I disagree here. In survival and missions where the defense objective moves yes, everything else no

19 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

Unlike the current version, the globe could be recharged, which given the shield restore on Freeze should not be a difficult task. I did some math above, but TL;DR the globe would have significantly increased baseline durability and strong scaling with shield mods compared to the current ability, without having to be spam-casted to be worth something, and would be recharged automatically just by playing normally, instead of requiring a refresh, so you'd be able to maintain your globe from a distance and not have to babysit it.

I could see but still, loosing shields for globe deletion? I cant see that working out well in high levels either

I mean even harrow starts to struggle a bit, and he has a way to regen energy. Shield gating gave him more of an edge but still

I dont feel this 1

[Teridax68]

1 minute ago, (PSN)IIFrost_GhostII said:

Yea thats what im saying, fix that the other way by making him a frame that wants to rely on armor 

Alright, sure, but then how would you propose going about that? None of his abilities play to his armor, other than the scaling on Snow Globe, which otherwise has no interaction with him relying on armor for personal durability.

1 minute ago, (PSN)IIFrost_GhostII said:

What? Thats like saying that ember shows control over fire by it getting hotter when in the water

Uh, no, it just means Frost's control over cold means he can arguably be expected to both reduce shields and increase his own. His Snow Globe is effectively a shield of ice, as well.

1 minute ago, (PSN)IIFrost_GhostII said:

Cause water does to fire what cold does to shields

I recommend looking up superconductors, you're in for a world of discovery.

1 minute ago, (PSN)IIFrost_GhostII said:

Thats why i said i like the way ice wave shatters enemies.

Ice Wave doesn't shatter enemies, Avalanche does. Why do you want Ice Wave to deal scaling damage?

1 minute ago, (PSN)IIFrost_GhostII said:

Also avalanche doesnt need to scale anymore than already does. Armor is massive, shield is massive, damage too? I think if you are going to go for damage, it atleast needs to be a build up. Modded right, avalanche becomes way more nuke than it already was as you have it currently. The people that be crying about having nothing to kill would throw a tantrum

Even if the damage numbers are just a place holder.

This is like saying Vauban is a nuke frame due to his delayed explosion on Photon Strike, which he clearly isn't. I would recommend thinking about how the ability would play out, because an explosion delayed by 1 second (and 1 second more for each recast) isn't exactly going to be the height of nuking in Warframe. The ability's damage itself would also be fairly mediocre without the recasting from frozen enemies, and in order to freeze enemies you'd have to set that up with either Freeze or some other prior damage. There would, effectively, be plenty of opportunity for other players to deal damage of their own, and Frost would only be truly nuking if he were playing solo, or if he were playing at extremely high levels with a team of non-nukers.

1 minute ago, (PSN)IIFrost_GhostII said:

I disagree here. In survival and missions where the defense objective moves yes, everything else no

Everything else yes, actually. If you go into literally any mission, you'd be able to use the baseline bubble as a durability steroid, and I don't think one can argue that durability steroids are undesirable.

1 minute ago, (PSN)IIFrost_GhostII said:

I could see but still, loosing shields for globe deletion? I cant see that working out well in high levels either

I mean even harrow starts to struggle a bit, and he has a way to regen energy. Shield gating gave him more of an edge but still

I dont feel this 1

And what about Hildryn? Harrow may have more overshields, Energy regen, and even invincibility on his 4, but when Covenant's on cooldown, he's actually a pretty squishy frame as a baseline. Meanwhile, Hildryn does just fine in high levels, and my version of Frost has even more EHP via his shields. I pointed out in an above comment that I may have in fact severely overbuffed him in that respect, though I'm keeping the numbers as is just to show the intent isn't to downgrade him.

[maycne.sonahoz]

19 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

I also outlined the issue at the beginning of the post: having an ability that's good in objective defense and useless everywhere else is one of the reasons why Frost feels like half a frame or less in most missions. Having a niche shouldn't mean having a stunted kit outside of that niche.

We're certainly on opposite terms about that.
I have no problem with an ability i would use only in limited circumstances, but still enjoy using nonetheless. Heck, i even unlocked most of the star chart with the Frost Prime bundle, and having one fixed-location ability wasn't an issue at all.
I do have a problem with suggestions about making that use less practical. Downgrading an objective oriented use to an augment because it's "niche" is exactly that. Although i might be thankful to you still allowing that use somehow, rather than outright discarding it like it happened with Ember.

[Teridax68]

2 minutes ago, maycne.sonahoz said:

We're certainly on opposite terms about that.
I have no problem with an ability i would use only in limited circumstances, but still enjoy using nonetheless. Heck, i even unlocked most of the star chart with the Frost Prime bundle, and having one fixed-location ability wasn't an issue at all.
I do have a problem with suggestions about making that use less practical. Downgrading an objective oriented use to an augment because it's "niche" is exactly that. Although i might be thankful to you still allowing that use somehow, rather than outright discarding it like it happened with Ember.

You may personally not have a problem with it, but clearly, there are many more people out there who would rather just pick a frame that isn't constrained to a niche as a baseline. At the end of the day, you are still being catered to with the augment, particularly since you should already be using the current version if you're properly building for objective defense. You would thus, in practice, remain completely unaffected, and everyone else would be able to enjoy a baseline ability that would be useful in more than three or four missions. If you think this would negatively impact your build, please show the build you're using for objective defense on Frost.

At the end of the day, it does seem like we have conflicting design philosophies, because I think the purpose of a frame's baseline kit is to be at the very least competent in most missions, and it should be up to the augments to cater to more specific playstyles and situations. A frame having specialized contributions should not be a reason for their abilities to be pretty much unusable in many, let alone most mission types, and that sort of design philosophy is precisely why many older frames struggle to see play.

[maycne.sonahoz]

12 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

At the end of the day, you are still being catered to with the augment, particularly since you should already be using the current version if you're properly building for objective defense.

I am not using Chilling Globe, i don't need it, i'm among those who stay inside the globe unless i am needed outside. My build is proper enough to work as intended without giving me trouble, thank you.

[(PSN)Frost_Nephilim]

8 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

Frost's control over cold means he can arguably be expected to both reduce shields and increase his own

Yes but you have him doing it with Ice is my point

9 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

Ice Wave doesn't shatter enemies, Avalanche does. Why do you want Ice Wave to deal scaling damage?

It does, you never 1 shot a group of enemies with it? Snow flies every where as enemies explode to bits

11 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

This is like saying Vauban is a nuke frame due to his delayed explosion on Photon Strike,

Photon strike has the radius of a pennie

Not to mention it has no armor or shield strip

13 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

would recommend thinking about how the ability would play out, because an explosion delayed by 1 second (and 1 second more for each recast) isn't exactly going to be the height of nuking in Warframe. The ability's damage itself would also be fairly mediocre without the recasting from frozen enemies, and in order to freeze enemies you'd have to set that up with either Freeze or some other prior damage. There would, effectively, be plenty of opportunity for other players to deal damage of their own, and Frost would only be truly nuking if he were playing solo, or if he were playing at extremely high levels with a team of non-nukers.

Im definetly missing some thing here. I especially get lost at "frozen enemy recast"

14 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

Everything else yes, actually. If you go into literally any mission, you'd be able to use the baseline bubble as a durability steroid, and I don't think one can argue that durability steroids are undesirable.

Im just about done, idk what youre talking about lol. Ive never met a durability steroid, she sounds like an interesting ship (thats how lost i am)

17 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

And what about Hildryn

4k shields for arcane aegis and barrier to proc, pillage granting back massive amounts of over shields, requiring no energy to cast?

Harrow is more worthy of a comparison is why, those buffs to frost stats isnt about to touch hildryn

22 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

Alright, sure, but then how would you propose going about that? None of his abilities play to his armor, other than the scaling on Snow Globe, which otherwise has no interaction with him relying on armor for personal durability.

I tried to turn his shield into an ice shield that benefits off of armor and functions differently from normal health

Other directions to go could sit around healing, better armor damage reduction, the armor strengthening abilities and abilities altering the armor, etc

Or get more creative by making damage to his health strengthen his next ability in some way, giving him other ways to go invincible without shield gating, using armor as an additional energy pool, etc

Many ways to go about it

 

[(PSN)Frost_Nephilim]

18 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

You may personally not have a problem with it, but clearly, there are many more people out there who would rather just pick a frame that isn't constrained to a niche as a baseline.

Let them pick the other frame, leave frost lovers alone

The ability isnt broke so

[Teridax68]

37 minutes ago, maycne.sonahoz said:

I am not using Chilling Globe, i don't need it, i'm among those who stay inside the globe unless i am needed outside. My build is proper enough to work as intended without giving me trouble, thank you.

So by your own admission, not only is your playstyle even more niche than the one players typically engage in when picking Frost for objective defense, it's one that's unlikely to appeal to many people given that you're opting to park yourself in a small area for prolonged periods of time, in a game whose core appeal includes hypermobility. That's all fine for you, but why are you expecting this to be the default for everyone else as well?

Also, the reason I'm asking you to list your build is to see whether it's only made up of mods essential to the playstyle: if there's even a single mod that isn't, then you have enough room to equip Chilling Globe, or the above augment. Given the way you're describing your build as "proper enough", it doesn't sound like it would exactly suffer if a mod were swapped out for the augment.

33 minutes ago, (PSN)IIFrost_GhostII said:

Yes but you have him doing it with Ice is my point

And the meaningful difference between cold and ice in this context is... ?

Quote

It does, you never 1 shot a group of enemies with it? Snow flies every where as enemies explode to bits

I don't know if there's a language barrier or a comprehension problem here, because Ice Wave, Frost's 2, does not shatter enemies. Avalanche, Frost's 4, does. If there's a "snow flying everywhere" effect on Frost's 2, the effect is purely cosmetic, and has no gameplay effect.

Quote

Photon strike has the radius of a pennie

Not to mention it has no armor or shield strip

15m base range isn't exactly massive either, and Photon Strike is much more spammable. At the end of the day, I don't get how you're criticizing Frost for being a nuke frame due to the addition of scaling damage, while asking for that same scaling damage on another of his abilities instead. Wouldn't that just make him a nuke frame by that same token?

Quote

Im definetly missing some thing here. I especially get lost at "frozen enemy recast"

I think you might be, and I recommend you read the descriptions again. "Frozen enemy recast" means the ability repeats itself every time it hits a frozen enemy: the enemy effectively casts Avalanche again, centered around themselves, if hit by the ability, which can then do the same to other frozen enemies. The ability would thus be okay with no setup, but would really shine if you managed to freeze a crowd of enemies, who'd all explode each other, in the same manner as the current shatter effect (in theory, anyway, the shatter damage in practice is crap).

Quote

Im just about done, idk what youre talking about lol. Ive never met a durability steroid, she sounds like an interesting ship (thats how lost i am)

I don't really know what to tell you here, as I'm using terms here that are normally universally understood in gaming spaces. To be clear, a steroid in this context is a power-up, a buff to your own character that increases their power for a duration. Given that my baseline version of Snow Globe would give Frost a persistent 90% damage reduction while shielded for its duration, it's therefore a steroid that would boost his durability, and significantly at that. That is the sort of ability that would be useful in any mission, because more survivability is pretty much always desirable.

Quote

4k shields for arcane aegis and barrier to proc, pillage granting back massive amounts of over shields, requiring no energy to cast?

Harrow is more worthy of a comparison is why, those buffs to frost stats isnt about to touch hildryn

Except as mentioned above, Snow Globe multiplies those shield stats by 10 with just a little bit of Strength, and also multiplies the effectiveness of all shield restoration as a result. Frost would also be able to get "massive amounts of over shields" (whatever that means, given that overshields are capped at 1200) with a cheap ability, so it is in fact Hildryn, and not Harrow, who would be the better point of comparison.

Quote

I tried to turn his shield into an ice shield that benefits off of armor and functions differently from normal health

Other directions to go could sit around healing, better armor damage reduction, the armor strengthening abilities and abilities altering the armor, etc

Or get more creative by making damage to his health strengthen his next ability in some way, giving him other ways to go invincible without shield gating, using armor as an additional energy pool, etc

Many ways to go about it

And how many of those would actually be good? Making his base shields scale off of armor is just more durability with extra steps, healing and extra armor wouldn't interact at all with Snow Globe's protection, and giving him bonus scalings based on armor or damage to health would just be trying to shoehorn a stat that would otherwise have no interaction with his playstyle. Literally nothing you listed justifies why you think armor is an important stat for Frost, let alone why it's more important than shields.

30 minutes ago, (PSN)IIFrost_GhostII said:

Let them pick the other frame, leave frost lovers alone

Or, perhaps, don't gatekeep a frame that everyone deserves to enjoy. This isn't just your game, this is everyone else's as well, and at the end of the day the kit I am proposing would still cater to you. You would still be able to have your static bubble if you wanted, and if you're building for objective defense, you should already be having that augment equipped now, so there would be no change. You aren't entitled to severely limiting a warframe's broader appeal purely for your own personal convenience, and have no reason to act as if you were. It's that kind of incredibly insular attitude that frequently has discussion go nowhere on these forums, because it makes people tear each other down for the sake of their own little fiefdoms and highly specific personal preferences, instead of working together to come up with ideas that would appeal to more than just one or a small handful of people.

[(PSN)Frost_Nephilim]

30 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

And the meaningful difference between cold and ice in this context is... ?

But your doing it with cold is my point

30 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

don't know if there's a language barrier or a comprehension problem here, because Ice Wave, Frost's 2, does not shatter enemies. Avalanche, Frost's 4, does. If there's a "snow flying everywhere" effect on Frost's 2, the effect is purely cosmetic, and has no gameplay effect.

Lolol well let me be clear

I like the way ice wave kills

30 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

while asking for that same scaling

Nope, different scaling

30 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

"Frozen enemy recast" means the ability repeats itself every time it hits a frozen enemy: the enemy effectively casts Avalanche again, centered around themselves, if hit by the ability, which can then do the same to other frozen enemies

Jeezus, it did mean what i thought it meant

Dude, what the

30 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

That is the sort of ability that would be useful in any mission, because more survivability is pretty much always desirable

Meh, yeah but like im saying you can still get away with frost's current setup and i dont think anyone who currently uses frost for the way he is should be punnished after a rework by losing a mod slot. Its not necessary

Everybody has their favorite warframe with a favorite kit. I find it better to respect it, and only address weakness that do not effect the kits core, in respect to those who currently love what they have.

Only reason i agree with the other person

30 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

Except as mentioned above, Snow Globe multiplies those shield stats by 10 with just a little bit of Strength, and also multiplies the effectiveness of all shield restoration as a result. Frost would also be able to get "massive amounts of over shields" (whatever that means, given that overshields are capped at 1200) with a cheap ability, so it is in fact Hildryn, and not Harrow, who would be the better point of comparison.

This was missed

What the actual

30 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

Or, perhaps, don't gatekeep a frame that everyone deserves to enjoy

Augment

Yep, i just dont agree here. These changes are way too much in the wrong direction to me. Im not saying it would turn frost into a bad warframe or something, hed unquestionly would be very, very powerful. But its not something i want or feel is needed.

To each their own

[maycne.sonahoz]

21 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

So by your own admission, not only is your playstyle even more niche than the one players typically engage in when picking Frost for objective defense, it's one that's unlikely to appeal to many people given that you're opting to park yourself in a small area for prolonged periods of time, in a game whose core appeal includes hypermobility. That's all fine for you, but why are you expecting this to be the default for everyone else as well?

What could i use for a mission involving protecting a static target against a horde of enemies coming from all sides? Oh, an ability that creates a spherical barrier large enough to protect me, the target, and even the allies, and still allowing everyone to shoot the incoming waves! Well isn't that straightforward!

And no, i don't need patronizing on which "essential" mods to use. But worry not, you can be sure i'll change my build if i become unsatisfied with it. ;)

[Teridax68]

48 minutes ago, (PSN)IIFrost_GhostII said:

But your doing it with cold is my point

It feels like you're just straight-up trolling here. What is the point you are trying to make?

48 minutes ago, (PSN)IIFrost_GhostII said:

Lolol well let me be clear

I like the way ice wave kills

That's fine, that's not changing.

48 minutes ago, (PSN)IIFrost_GhostII said:

Nope, different scaling

Which "different scaling"? How does that meaningfully change anything being said here? At the end of the day, you're accusing me of making Frost a nuke frame on the pure basis of having scaling damage... while asking for scaling damage on Frost. Something doesn't compute.

48 minutes ago, (PSN)IIFrost_GhostII said:

Jeezus, it did mean what i thought it meant

Dude, what the

... yes?

48 minutes ago, (PSN)IIFrost_GhostII said:

Meh, yeah but like im saying you can still get away with frost's current setup

How so? He's known for not being particularly durable.

48 minutes ago, (PSN)IIFrost_GhostII said:

and i dont think anyone who currently uses frost for the way he is should be punnished after a rework by losing a mod slot. Its not necessary

I think it absolutely is necessary, and I don't think anyone would be getting punished. Tell me, what's your build on Frost when you go defending objectives? Are all of its mods so essential that you wouldn't be able to replace even one with the Snow Globe augment, assuming you don't have it there already?

48 minutes ago, (PSN)IIFrost_GhostII said:

Everybody has their favorite warframe with a favorite kit. I find it better to respect it, and only address weakness that do not effect the kits core, in respect to those who currently love what they have.

Only reason i agree with the other person

Respecting a frame and their kit is not the same as stonewalling any improvements to the frame simply because you like bits of it that are major problems, and aren't ready for any meaningful change. If DE listened to the people who screamed bloody murder at the mere announcement of the Nezha and Wukong reworks, and cancelled them before anyone got a chance to actually try them out, the frames would have remained in the garbage pile: they certainly would've appealed to a handful of people, but then many more people wouldn't have had a chance to fall in love with those frames. Similarly, wanting a frame to retain a really antiquated and clearly dysfunctional design just because that's the one you got used to prevents the frame from attracting many more fans, some of whom could possibly become even more dedicated to the frame than you.

48 minutes ago, (PSN)IIFrost_GhostII said:

This was missed

What the actual

... yes? Are you still going to accuse my Frost changes of making him squishy now?

48 minutes ago, (PSN)IIFrost_GhostII said:

Augment

Yep, i just dont agree here. These changes are way too much in the wrong direction to me. Im not saying it would turn frost into a bad warframe or something, hed unquestionly would be very, very powerful. But its not something i want or feel is needed.

To each their own

To each their own indeed, I guess. I still don't think it's really a change in a direction too far from what Frost is now, especially since you'd be able to deploy his bubble exactly the way you'd want, though from what you're telling me, you'd rather make Frost some kind of armor tank, which I think pulls him in another, even more drastic direction that I don't think really fits the frame.

37 minutes ago, maycne.sonahoz said:

What could i use for a mission involving protecting a static target against a horde of enemies coming from all sides? Oh, an ability that creates a spherical barrier large enough to protect me, the target, and even the allies, and still allowing everyone to shoot the incoming waves! Well isn't that straightforward!

Indeed! If only one could do that with the above kit... oh wait, that's right, you can. You'd be able to do exactly that, because you'd be able to build towards that exact purpose, as you should already be doing now. I genuinely fail to see what the problem is here.

37 minutes ago, maycne.sonahoz said:

And no, i don't need patronizing on which "essential" mods to use. But worry not, you can be sure i'll change my build if i become unsatisfied with it. ;)

I don't think it's really patronizing to ask for evidence that your build is as impossible to change as you're claiming it to be. In the end, you're making a mountain out of a molehill by asking an entire frame to be left to stagnate, simply because you don't like the idea of having to equip a mod when building towards a specific objective. I thus don't think it's unreasonable to ask for your build and see what's going on there, and I think it's also particularly strange that you'd be so reluctant to share something so simple. What exactly do you have to hide?

[(PSN)Frost_Nephilim]

4 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

It feels like you're just straight-up trolling here

How? If you scroll up following the trail of quote responses, it says what im referring to???

Anyway, i need for someone else to look it over because im not sure if im processing whats being said here correctly. I thought i was following but after the explanations this sounds completely broken, and out of place

I cant really offer anymore feedback till then, im sorry. I just dont understand

[(PSN)Frost_Nephilim]

11 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

What is the point you are trying to make?

Youre increasing his shields with cold, ice, frost, chilling abilities

[Teridax68]

24 minutes ago, (PSN)IIFrost_GhostII said:

How? If you scroll up following the trail of quote responses, it says what im referring to???

And that is precisely what led me to believe you are trolling: when I justify Frost's theme of cold in relation to shields, you tell me that the problem is I'm "doing it with ice". When I ask you to clarify the difference between cold and ice in this context, you then reply to me that I'm "doing it with cold". How does that follow?

24 minutes ago, (PSN)IIFrost_GhostII said:

Anyway, i need for someone else to look it over because im not sure if im processing whats being said here correctly. I thought i was following but after the explanations this sounds completely broken, and out of place

I cant really offer anymore feedback till then, im sorry. I just dont understand

It does look for sure like you could benefit from giving the above kit another, more thorough read, as from the looks of it you commented based on an incomplete understanding of what I was posting, and missed vital information on multiple counts.

26 minutes ago, (PSN)IIFrost_GhostII said:

Youre increasing his shields with cold, ice, frost, chilling abilities

Yes, and? Again, Snow Globe is literally a bubble shield, plus creating protective sheets of ice and superconducting shielding tech through ultra-cold temperatures are both reasonable, particularly as Frost, once again, has above average shields. What exactly do armor or health have to do with ice?

[(PSN)Frost_Nephilim]

29 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

Yes, and?

Why is Warm Coat a mod? Cause cold harms shields right?

Theres a reason i said cold does to shields what what water does to fire

Its why i said i dont see the logic in this

But you replied

3 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

Uh, no, it just means Frost's control over cold means he can arguably be expected to both reduce shields and increase his own. His Snow Globe is effectively a shield of ice, as well.

This is saying that frost is still going to suffer from cold temperatures but not as much because he has "control over cold" by using his ice (cold) abilities to increase his shields

Like this isnt making sense, cold hurts shields, how is frost increasing it with it? "Control over cold"??? What does that even mean lol

Warframe Shields is not a ice like snow globe, so i dont even know why thats bring brought up???

 

Like its too much confusion, i gtg lol

[Teridax68]

3 minutes ago, (PSN)IIFrost_GhostII said:

Why is Warm Coat a mod? What does cold do to shields?

Theres a reason i said cold does to shields what what water does to fire

Its why i said i dont see the logic in this

But you replied

This is saying that frost is still going to suffer from cold temps but not as much because he has "control over cold" by using his ice (cold) abilities to increase his shields

Like this isnt making sense, cold hurts shields, how is frost increasing it with it? "Control over cold"??? What does that even mean lol

I think you'd be much less confused if you merely read what I posted in reply, including in the one directly above your own. More generally, the problem at hand still seems to be that you're only skimming what's being said, or otherwise not taking the proper time to fully understand it, and I'd rather not have to repeat myself.

[(PSN)Frost_Nephilim]

3 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

merely read what I posted

Wow. Welp gl

[(XBOX)TheWayOfWisdom]

So here's my thoughts.

Quote

His stats are awkward: Frost has low base Energy despite needing to spam his Snow Globe to make the most use of the ability,

I'll agree that his globe is a bit spammy. However, your rework largely eliminates the spam from all abilities, so buffing the base energy pool doesn't seem to quite follow. Not gonna say no to a bigger energy pool though.

Quote

New: Enemies damaged by Frost receive 1 stack of Cold status every 0.2 seconds until maximum stacks are reached. Frost can apply up to 11 stacks of Cold, rather than 10: at 11 stacks, enemies are frozen solid for the duration of the status effect.

• Applies from any source of damage, including weapons, abilities, and mods, so long as Frost is the one to deal it.
• Because the effect lasts as long as the enemy has 11 Cold status stacks, the freeze duration is affected by status duration.

Feels massively overpowered. You get completely free hard CC. Higher proc cap is neat, but the cold stacking on damage needs a lower cap and/or a slower increase rate.

Ice Wave:
I'd rather see its effects just be baked into Freeze. So remove the wave and have Freeze just leave a lingering AoE that procs cold. Leaves a free slot for a new ability. Your proposed version feels like it still suffers from redundancy.

Snow Globe:
DR feels a bit generic, but it is what it is.
Making it deactivate while shields are down seems kinda meaningless and an unnecessary punishment. Granted I realize the intended loop would be to cast Freeze often to maintain shields, but still.
Range could stand to be a touch higher.

Quote

Bonus damage reduction is capped at 65%, for a total of 90% damage reduction while shields are active.

Nope, unless you want Adaptation to break it and give Frost damage type immunity. So long as Adaptation exists, making things additive to health/shield damage modifiers is a bad idea. Make it multiplicative and cap it at 75-80% or so.

Avalanche:
Completely OP. I know you said current values are placeholder, but its far too strong. A simple recast will nuke pretty much any unit that does not have innate DR.
Example: You mod for 200% strength cast it once with 7 frozen units around you. You effectively now have a 3500 base damage AoE that strips all armor/shields and scales with enemy level.
Your armor strip have damage that scales with enemy level and density is a no-go. Flechette orb and Photon Strike only scale at 1/10th the rate of enemy level, and neither strip armor, or scale with enemy density.

 

[Teridax68]

42 minutes ago, (XBOX)TheWayOfWisdom said:

So here's my thoughts.

I'll agree that his globe is a bit spammy. However, your rework largely eliminates the spam from all abilities, so buffing the base energy pool doesn't seem to quite follow. Not gonna say no to a bigger energy pool though.

That is true, I may likely have double-dipped in that respect. If there is possible justification, it's that I increased the base cost on Snow Globe, and also expect Frost to cast his 1 a lot more often, plus make more general use of his abilities, though arguably that's a moot point given how other frames have the same Energy pool and comparable ability usage.

Quote

Feels massively overpowered. You get completely free hard CC. Higher proc cap is neat, but the cold stacking on damage needs a lower cap and/or a slower increase rate.

That's possible, yeah. If I were to choose between the two, I'd choose a slower increase rate, though I'd argue that having to wait a full 2 seconds for an enemy to get stunned may already make the effect a lot less strong than it may otherwise come across. In most scenarios, most enemies will be dead within 2 seconds, and in the scenarios where they can survive that long while you're actively trying to freeze them through the passive alone, they'd be able to hurt you quite a bit.

Quote

Ice Wave:
I'd rather see its effects just be baked into Freeze. So remove the wave and have Freeze just leave a lingering AoE that procs cold. Leaves a free slot for a new ability. Your proposed version feels like it still suffers from redundancy.

I feel there is value in separating the two abilities, because Freeze provides instant hard CC, and in the above version Ice Wave would lock down an entire, much larger area, though over a longer time period. There probably is room for mixing the two abilities and coming up with another, but I tried to play the above kit as safe as I could and not stray too far if I could avoid it. If you look at the comments, you'll see two people kicking and screaming just because I suggested to make Snow Globe centered on Frost as a baseline, and only make it stationary with its augment equipped, so you can probably imagine how they and others might have reacted to a new ability...

Quote

Snow Globe:
DR feels a bit generic, but it is what it is.

Indeed. I thought of other ways to give Frost more durability with his bubble up, including bonus shield capacity, but the problem there is that I also want the player to be able to activate and deactivate the ability at will, so a flat increase wouldn't really work. As generic as DR is, I think it would fit the bill here, especially since it would act as a multiplier to shield restoration in addition to shields.

Quote

Making it deactivate while shields are down seems kinda meaningless and an unnecessary punishment. Granted I realize the intended loop would be to cast Freeze often to maintain shields, but still.

Given that the bubble would literally just be Frost's shields, I figured it wouldn't make sense to have it still up while Frost's shields were down, certainly not if it meant redirecting damage to his health. Similarly, I don't think it would actually help Frost if his shield regen kept getting interrupted while recovering his shield gate due to making himself a bigger target.

Quote

Range could stand to be a touch higher.

I think this is one of the rare cases where more range would likely not actually be to the frame's benefit, because the bigger the bubble, the more shots Frost would intercept, whether he'd like it or not. Ideally, Frost should have enough range on the bubble to act as some kind of barrier between enemy shots and his team in choke points, but the bubble also oughtn't be so big as to make him eat every shot in the room all the time. With that said, though, the range is a fair bit lower than on the current bubble, so it could likely stand to be upped a little.

Quote

Nope, unless you want Adaptation to break it and give Frost damage type immunity. So long as Adaptation exists, making things additive to health/shield damage modifiers is a bad idea. Make it multiplicative and cap it at 75-80% or so.

That's not how Adaptation works. Adaptation is multiplicative to the innate 25% damage reduction provided by shields, so 90% DR from shields wouldn't provide damage immunity. The flat added damage reduction here is only additive to the innate DR on shields, so you're adding 25 to whichever number is listed, up to 90%. If this sounds OP, bear in mind this would in fact be worse than most DR steroids, whose 90% DR is multiplicative and independent of the 25% DR from shields, on top of which you then layer Adaptation.

Quote

Avalanche:
Completely OP. I know you said current values are placeholder, but its far too strong. A simple recast will nuke pretty much any unit that does not have innate DR.
Example: You mod for 200% strength cast it once with 7 frozen units around you. You effectively now have a 3500 base damage AoE that strips all armor/shields and scales with enemy level.

The numbers are likely too strong, though it is also worth bearing in mind that the ability is in fact meant to work really well off of frozen enemies, especially when you compare the time needed to freeze, shred, then nuke those enemies relative to just shooting or meleeing them. If the ability ramps up too well against crowds, it might help to have the recast only deal a percentage of the original's damage.

Quote

Your armor strip have damage that scales with enemy level and density is a no-go. Flechette orb and Photon Strike only scale at 1/10th the rate of enemy level, and neither strip armor, or scale with enemy density.

It is worth mentioning that Flechette Orb and Photon Strike only cost 25 and 75 Energy respectively, whereas Avalanche costs 100, so the latter does in fact have permission to be a stronger effect than either (though not necessarily to a ridiculous extent), and Vauban also gets access to an armor shred on his own kit. As for the scaling, that's a complete red herring which misunderstands the math at hand. Just to give a quick proof:

Vauban's enemy multiplier on Flechette Orb and Photon Strike is ceil(Enemy level / 10). At level 1, the multiplier is 1; at level 11, the multiplier becomes 2; at level 21 it becomes 3, and so on. The base damage on Photon Strike's main blast goes to 2500: effectively, one could divide the base damage by 10, multiply the multiplier by 10, and obtain exactly the same results. At 250 base damage, you'd thus have a x10 multiplier at level 1, a x20 multiplier at level 11, a x30 multiplier at level 21, and so on.

On my version of Avalanche, the base damage is 250, and the multiplier is equal to the enemy's level. Thus, the multiplier is x1 at level 1, x11 at level 11, x21 at level 21, and so on. Thus, when you compare the formulas, not only would my version of the ability scale at exactly the same rate as Photon Strike, it would actually deal worse damage than Photon Strike at every level due to being slightly behind in multipliers, all else held equal: at level 11, Photon Strike deals 5000 damage unmodded, whereas Avalanche would only deal 2750. At level 21, Photon Strike deals 7500 damage compared to Avalanche's 5250. At level 101, Photon Strike deals 27,500 damage, and Avalanche 25,250. The difference goes down at higher enemy levels, but never disappears.

Hopefully that should clarify things. I can certainly agree that the combination of scaling damage, ramp-up with enemy density, and armor and shield shred may be too much with the above listed numbers, but the claim that the level scaling on my ability beats Vauban's is mathematically wrong, plain and simple.