I hate everything Star Days represent, because it reminds me what Warframe used to be.

[KittySkin]

On 2021-02-15 at 9:30 PM, Teljaxx said:

Anyone who is willing to settle for a worse version of something just because they are too cheap and/or lazy to try anything else is just plain sad. Try exploring outside you tiny little box of ignorance for once, you'd be surprised how nice it is out here.

And, as I said in my previous post: It doesn't matter what I like or don't like. The problem is that Warframe's development model doesn't give me, or anyone else, a choice in the matter. Just wait, keep playing long enough, and you'll end up in my position. Hating DE for removing something you liked, or forcing in something you don't like. Its inevitable.

Intentions don't matter, only execution does. It doesn't matter what DE wants Warframe to be if that thing just plain doesn't work. Even if I intend to use my car as a submarine, it doesn't make driving it into the ocean a good idea.

Plus, even if they wanted it to be, Ralijack simply wasn't part of the game at first. Therefore, nothing in the entire rest of the game was designed with it in mind. That's why it has ended up being a completely isolated content island. If they had actually designed the entire game around it, that wouldn't have been the case. But they didn't, because they couldn't.

This is yet another reason why sequels are better than endless "Live Service" games. If DE had made "Warframe 2" they could have saved Railjack for it, and built the entire thing around it, so it would all work together properly. But they didn't. Instead they tried to shoehorn an entirely different genre of game into their once focused 3rd person shooter. And all it has done is split their development efforts even further than they already were, so everything has gotten worse because of it. Because now they have to spend their time making a 3rd person shooter, AND a spaceship game at the same time.

And, of course, Railjack isn't the only time they've done this. Its just the most egregious. Necremechs, mining, fishing, Archwing, even the open world maps have done very little but dilute Warframe, and slow down development. Its turned a continent into an island chain.

If they ever release "Warframe 2", im quitting warframe. Period. On a grinding GAS game releasing a "2" part its a SUPER $&*^ move, specially because how long it takes for you to gear up and all the stuff you accumulated.

I dont get how you manage to be this upset about a game, I dont enjoyed everything in game, but fir the most part, I enjoyed 90% of my time in it.

Open worlds being the only thing I dissliked and doing them with friends turned up to be super fun as well.

What for you its an issue, for me its not. I love how DE push to do new stuff instead of iterating the same stuff again and again, even if from time to time there are stuff that its "meh" or downright terrible, I like the fact that instead of sticking with a proven formula and just releasing basillons of the same game with modern day graphics (hello every damn call of duty, fifa, battlefield, etc), they came up with "hey, we though this S#&$ could be funny, give it a try and if it gies well, we add more of this.

Feeling that every few updates im relearning the game again for me at least, its what made me keep playing.

[SneakyErvin]

4 hours ago, akrid45 said:

i'm sorry did you just say warframe has more active players playing than destiny 2? someone clearly didn't even check if what he is saying is correct before posting 

 

WF = Several PC launcher options.

Destiny 2 = Only Steam.

WF has a Standalone and a Steam version that are both huge and it now also has the Epic store, though the impact of that is yet to be seen. You however, like many others seem to think Steam is the only launch option for WF. Maybe you should check your own info? That is always a good start if you wanna try to correct others.

1 hour ago, Teljaxx said:

Covid has been messing things up in America and Canada for almost exactly a year. But Warframe's updates have been getting slower and smaller for many years. Its clearly not just because DE has been out of the office due to quarantine. Though, I guess you wouldn't have noticed, since it started before you even joined. You never even saw any of the old weekly Tenno Reinforcement updates, did you?

The base game of Destiny 2 went F2P because they changed publishers. It wasn't because it was failing. They had actually gotten a fairly significant boost in players just before doing so from the release of Forsaken. They actually did it because they intended to do it that way from the beginning, but Activision wouldn't let them. And just like Warframe, since they didn't do it from the beginning, it also caused problems. Ever since then they have had trouble getting their microtransactions to be profitable enough.

And, once again, shutting down Warframe now and moving on to a sequel would be a horrible idea. But it could have worked if they did it earlier. It wasn't nearly as unsuccessful in its first few years as you seem to think it was. If DE had planned it right, they could have potentially used every big, game changing update they did to make a sequel. Archwing could have been the basis of Warframe 2, open Worlds Warframe 3, and Railjack Warframe 4. If they had done that, then each new system could have been fully integrated into the core game from the beginning, instead of being haphazardly grafted on afterwards. And we would have ended up with far fewer shriveled up, forgotten systems in the game.

You know why games like Battlefield can have on foot, tank, plane, and boat mechanics all working together? Because they have a massive "AAA" team and budget working for years to make it all work before the game even comes out. DE doesn't have that luxury. They have a much smaller budget and team, and they spent way less time on any of their updates. EA can devote a team that is the size of all of DE to just making any one part of their games work. DE obviously can't do that, yet they also have far more things to split their attention at this point. Again, this is an inevitable problem every "Live Service" game eventually faces. Every new thing they add just means more work from then on. And DE is only making it worse by making every big new update add something completely different to the game.

Not only does Railjack dilute the rest of the game, but Railjack itself is diluted by all the other stuff you have to do in it. Its primarily space combat. But you also have to constantly stop flying the ship to go kill borders, patch holes, run the forge, and take your Archwing out to deal with Crewships and space stations. And, even when you are flying the ship, its not very fun, since it handles about as well as a cruise ship in a swamp. If you ever have actually played Elite Dangerous, you would know exactly what my problem is. And no, its not just because Railjacks are supposed to be big and heavy because they aren't little fighters. Elite has plenty of big ships too, bigger than even Railjacks, and yet they are still so much more fun to fly. Its because the super in depth and well made flight model of Elite is just plain better than the barebones one that DE cobbled together for Railjack.

Besides, it doesn't matter what you say, its super obvious that Railjack is unpopular. Did you know that only 2.5% of all Steam players have built their own Railjack? Or that only 1.9% have even killed 100 enemies in a Railjack? Those are both pretty basic things, yet so few people have those achievements. Sure, you don't have to build your own ship to play Railjack missions. And there are other ways to kill enemies, like using your Archwing. But even so, those numbers are surprisingly low. More people have reached Gold Dragon rank than that. I'm still only a Silver Dragon after all these years, yet I killed 100 Railjack enemies in like four or five missions, despite using my Archwing almost every chance I get. Those numbers should not be comparable at all.

I guess we'll have to see if the next big update actually helps with any of this. Or if it just ends up being more of the same, but now in Corpus flavor. Either way, it won't do anything about Necramechs, or mining, or fishing, or any of the other similar problems this game also has.

I thought we were talking RJ here and actual events since RJ focus seems to have been your gripe. And as for slowed down releases. No not really, we've had the same intervals of releases. What has changed is that some content releases were smaller in order for them to rework older things in the game, but that is what happens in all games at some point. And this was outside of covid. And I dont care squat diddly about tenno reinforcements since it isnt content. It is also not impacted by development of things like RJ, so being mad at RJ and other content releases because you see less reinforcements is so utterly silly.

Dest2 went free to play long long before it ever hit Steam. It had a horrible release and was handed out for free on Battle.net already, shortly after the initial release for that matter. And the reason they have trouble getting their microtransactions profitable enough is because everything costs in that game. It isnt even actually free if you wanna play it since you must pick up the expansions, which they later on rob you off aswell. 

So you think DE should have kept the updates and let WF die slowly back then in order to make a sequel? Yeah I'm sure they wouldnt have gotten branded with a massive "these guys abandon their games" label. And WF did poorly in the beginning, very poorly. It turned positive over the course of time though.

Oh so EA based games get a pass even though they are filled with bugs, but you rage on DE for bugs because they implement RJ? You know that RJ and vehicle combat from BF are fairly similar, neither provides an accurate simulation. Another thing to note is that the bugs in BF games are often far more impacting on the gameplay than anything we have in WF. Shouldnt the BF games be scrutinized the same way by saying "they should focus on one part of the game, not add all these vehicles because it would reduce bugs!"? Or are you just saying DICE are massively incompetent since they have far larger teams and backing and still fail to release a good working game? Naa it is OK to have 1+ years of broken netcode in a PvP game cos it comes from a big studio.

So you dont enjoy RJ and the concept, got it.

Those steam achievments would only be interesting if each member of a group had to bring a RJ to a mission. It is also based on total player numbers, not active, which means it compares percentages to 8 years worth of players that are active and inactive. You are in reality looking at 500k+ players that have done those things on Steam alone. Without taking into account the other half or so of the community that is not on Steam. Knowing how to use the numbers is more important than just looking at the numbers.

[Teljaxx]

16 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

WF = Several PC launcher options.

Destiny 2 = Only Steam.

WF has a Standalone and a Steam version that are both huge and it now also has the Epic store, though the impact of that is yet to be seen. You however, like many others seem to think Steam is the only launch option for WF. Maybe you should check your own info? That is always a good start if you wanna try to correct others.

I thought we were talking RJ here and actual events since RJ focus seems to have been your gripe. And as for slowed down releases. No not really, we've had the same intervals of releases. What has changed is that some content releases were smaller in order for them to rework older things in the game, but that is what happens in all games at some point. And this was outside of covid. And I dont care squat diddly about tenno reinforcements since it isnt content. It is also not impacted by development of things like RJ, so being mad at RJ and other content releases because you see less reinforcements is so utterly silly.

Dest2 went free to play long long before it ever hit Steam. It had a horrible release and was handed out for free on Battle.net already, shortly after the initial release for that matter. And the reason they have trouble getting their microtransactions profitable enough is because everything costs in that game. It isnt even actually free if you wanna play it since you must pick up the expansions, which they later on rob you off aswell. 

So you think DE should have kept the updates and let WF die slowly back then in order to make a sequel? Yeah I'm sure they wouldnt have gotten branded with a massive "these guys abandon their games" label. And WF did poorly in the beginning, very poorly. It turned positive over the course of time though.

Oh so EA based games get a pass even though they are filled with bugs, but you rage on DE for bugs because they implement RJ? You know that RJ and vehicle combat from BF are fairly similar, neither provides an accurate simulation. Another thing to note is that the bugs in BF games are often far more impacting on the gameplay than anything we have in WF. Shouldnt the BF games be scrutinized the same way by saying "they should focus on one part of the game, not add all these vehicles because it would reduce bugs!"? Or are you just saying DICE are massively incompetent since they have far larger teams and backing and still fail to release a good working game? Naa it is OK to have 1+ years of broken netcode in a PvP game cos it comes from a big studio.

So you dont enjoy RJ and the concept, got it.

Those steam achievments would only be interesting if each member of a group had to bring a RJ to a mission. It is also based on total player numbers, not active, which means it compares percentages to 8 years worth of players that are active and inactive. You are in reality looking at 500k+ players that have done those things on Steam alone. Without taking into account the other half or so of the community that is not on Steam. Knowing how to use the numbers is more important than just looking at the numbers.

I never said Destiny was better than Warframe. Its not. They have made their own horrible mistakes, plus most of the same ones as Warframe. The main thing they did right was actually making a sequel at some point.

This was never just about Railjack. Its about the fact that DE keeps diluting their game with more and more peripheral stuff, while ignoring the core parts that attracted most of us in the first place. Railjack is just the most obvious example of that, so its what I have been focusing on.

You're also still stuck on DE making a sequel NOW, which I have already said wouldn't work. They missed that bus a long time ago. But that also doesn't excuse anything, because its still DE's fault that it wouldn't work. They made bad choices from day one, and the game suffers from it. Mostly because of people like you who are willing to do this kind of mental gymnastics to excuse them, just because you can't admit that the game that sucks up all your free time isn't as good as you think it is.

Even though they don't show the entire player population, those Steam achievements still totally matter. I seriously doubt there is a massive difference in percentages of players on any other platform. There is absolutely no reason to assume that all Railjack players are clustered onto, say, the Playstation, and none of them are on Steam. Besides, you conveniently ignored the one that matters the most: the kills. How is it that someone like me, who has barely played any Railjack at all, and primarily uses my Archwing when doing to, has gotten the 100 Railjack kills achievement? Yet, somehow, all the supposed huge fans of it that totally exist and play it all the time, haven't gotten that same achievement? That seems like one of the most basic things that everyone should have. And yet, somehow, only a microscopic 1.9% of all Steam players have managed to do so. That is quite telling.

Also, its not that I don't enjoy Railjack as a concept. It was kind of fun, for a few missions. But it doesn't have nearly the staying power DE thinks it does. They clearly want everyone to play it for hours and hours over years and years. But there simply isn't any reason to actually do so. And I doubt there ever will be, because they simply don't have the resources to make it as good as it should be. As we deserve it to be.

20 hours ago, KittySkin said:

If they ever release "Warframe 2", im quitting warframe. Period. On a grinding GAS game releasing a "2" part its a SUPER $&*^ move, specially because how long it takes for you to gear up and all the stuff you accumulated.

I dont get how you manage to be this upset about a game, I dont enjoyed everything in game, but fir the most part, I enjoyed 90% of my time in it.

Open worlds being the only thing I dissliked and doing them with friends turned up to be super fun as well.

What for you its an issue, for me its not. I love how DE push to do new stuff instead of iterating the same stuff again and again, even if from time to time there are stuff that its "meh" or downright terrible, I like the fact that instead of sticking with a proven formula and just releasing basillons of the same game with modern day graphics (hello every damn call of duty, fifa, battlefield, etc), they came up with "hey, we though this S#&$ could be funny, give it a try and if it gies well, we add more of this.

Feeling that every few updates im relearning the game again for me at least, its what made me keep playing.

You enjoy 90% of your time in Warframe, huh? Do you realize what that actually means?

Because I have over 2,400 hours on record in this game, if I only enjoyed 90% of that time, that would mean I have spent a total of 240 hours playing, but not enjoying it. That's more time than I spend overall in almost any other game. That's really bad. And I'm fairly certain that I have enjoyed quite a bit less than 90% of my time in this game.

That's one of the main problems with super grindy, "Live Service" games like this. They are designed to keep you playing beyond what you really want to do. That's what causes burnout. And, in reality, the very concept of being burnt out on a video game, aka something that you do 100% voluntarily because you enjoy it, is absurd. If you stop liking it, you should just leave, right? So why do so many people keep playing for so long that they start to hate it? Why is burn out such a common occurrence that it has an official name and everything? Because that's how these games are designed. They manipulate you, and make you feel compelled to play, regardless of whether you're actually having fun. Because, even if you aren't enjoying it now, grinding for that shiny new toy will make it fun again, right? Says the addict, with out realizing that's what they are.

Again, its not just Warframe that has these problems. That's why I'm being so stubborn about all this. This kind of thing has become way too common across the industry. And I'm tired of having to avoid playing what looks like a cool game, just because I know its going to do all this same manipulative crap all over again. And if the only way I can even try to convince anyone to actually pay attention to this stuff is to rant about it on a game forum, then so be it. If I can get even one more person to actually care about the quality of their entertainment, and to expect better than this, then I win.

[KittySkin]

3 hours ago, Teljaxx said:

I never said Destiny was better than Warframe. Its not. They have made their own horrible mistakes, plus most of the same ones as Warframe. The main thing they did right was actually making a sequel at some point.

This was never just about Railjack. Its about the fact that DE keeps diluting their game with more and more peripheral stuff, while ignoring the core parts that attracted most of us in the first place. Railjack is just the most obvious example of that, so its what I have been focusing on.

You're also still stuck on DE making a sequel NOW, which I have already said wouldn't work. They missed that bus a long time ago. But that also doesn't excuse anything, because its still DE's fault that it wouldn't work. They made bad choices from day one, and the game suffers from it. Mostly because of people like you who are willing to do this kind of mental gymnastics to excuse them, just because you can't admit that the game that sucks up all your free time isn't as good as you think it is.

Even though they don't show the entire player population, those Steam achievements still totally matter. I seriously doubt there is a massive difference in percentages of players on any other platform. There is absolutely no reason to assume that all Railjack players are clustered onto, say, the Playstation, and none of them are on Steam. Besides, you conveniently ignored the one that matters the most: the kills. How is it that someone like me, who has barely played any Railjack at all, and primarily uses my Archwing when doing to, has gotten the 100 Railjack kills achievement? Yet, somehow, all the supposed huge fans of it that totally exist and play it all the time, haven't gotten that same achievement? That seems like one of the most basic things that everyone should have. And yet, somehow, only a microscopic 1.9% of all Steam players have managed to do so. That is quite telling.

Also, its not that I don't enjoy Railjack as a concept. It was kind of fun, for a few missions. But it doesn't have nearly the staying power DE thinks it does. They clearly want everyone to play it for hours and hours over years and years. But there simply isn't any reason to actually do so. And I doubt there ever will be, because they simply don't have the resources to make it as good as it should be. As we deserve it to be.

You enjoy 90% of your time in Warframe, huh? Do you realize what that actually means?

Because I have over 2,400 hours on record in this game, if I only enjoyed 90% of that time, that would mean I have spent a total of 240 hours playing, but not enjoying it. That's more time than I spend overall in almost any other game. That's really bad. And I'm fairly certain that I have enjoyed quite a bit less than 90% of my time in this game.

That's one of the main problems with super grindy, "Live Service" games like this. They are designed to keep you playing beyond what you really want to do. That's what causes burnout. And, in reality, the very concept of being burnt out on a video game, aka something that you do 100% voluntarily because you enjoy it, is absurd. If you stop liking it, you should just leave, right? So why do so many people keep playing for so long that they start to hate it? Why is burn out such a common occurrence that it has an official name and everything? Because that's how these games are designed. They manipulate you, and make you feel compelled to play, regardless of whether you're actually having fun. Because, even if you aren't enjoying it now, grinding for that shiny new toy will make it fun again, right? Says the addict, with out realizing that's what they are.

Again, its not just Warframe that has these problems. That's why I'm being so stubborn about all this. This kind of thing has become way too common across the industry. And I'm tired of having to avoid playing what looks like a cool game, just because I know its going to do all this same manipulative crap all over again. And if the only way I can even try to convince anyone to actually pay attention to this stuff is to rant about it on a game forum, then so be it. If I can get even one more person to actually care about the quality of their entertainment, and to expect better than this, then I win.

Super funny is that the 10% time not enjoying it was because I wanted to get a specific thing and didnt wanted to pay plat for it. I also studyied a career where I certainly didnt enjoy even 20% of it, because the career was what I wanted, but the process of doing it wasnt fun at all. Not even a single bit.

Being under the ilussion that a magic item in a game will make it fun again its certainly like an addiction, and as far as Im concerned, its not my case. Even when I decided to do things of the game that I did not enjoyed, that was because the rest of it was enjoyable.

Same can be said about single player games, I absolutly hated certain bosses in dark souls, that doesnt mean the game was bad for me, once I overcome them I enjoyed again the rest of the journey, the same can be said here.

Sometimes they release content that its not appealing to me, but if theres something fun to get from said content, I do it, if not, I dont. And if the mission type its not fun, S#&$ happens, I can live with that as long as once done with it, I can enjoy my new toy on the rest of the game.

Stop trying to compare this to a cocaine addiction, its not even similarly grounded and its WAY off the charts. And this is comming from someone that used to do cocaine when I was younger.

Enduring something that you dont enjoy because theres something that you want at the end of the road its not an addiction, its part of life. It happens in GAS games, happens in single player games, happens in human relationships, in workplaces and in stuying process too. Its impossible to have a 100% enjoy rate on something, theres always that thing that you simply disslike and its goddamn ok, but calling that an addiction its WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY of the charts.

Some games are atrocious, im not going to deny that, lootboxes are the worst of all, but all games have serotonin inducers in them, from killing a hard enemy to looting that so much desired item. And anything that induce serotonin releases on the brain can turn into an addiction, and even having sex or practicing a sport do that!

[(XBOX)IIIIRED1IIII]

On 2021-02-11 at 8:50 PM, ReddyDisco said:

Tbh this how a lot of gamers are and you can just never please then since their demands are endless.

[Krankbert]

vor 19 Minuten schrieb (XBOX)IIIIRED1IIII:

Tbh this how a lot of gamers are and you can just never please then since their demands are endless.

The particularly nice thing about this mental short-circuit is that you can stop thinking. You can just dismiss any and all criticism that is ever brought against any game without even once engaging your brain.  Just assume that everyone who thinks different from you is a toxic moron who doesn't need to be listened to because he's impossible to please anyway and you'll never have to deal with anyone's opinion ever again.

Can you lot seriously not think of a single thing to say about the specific matter at hand and still feel so compelled by your fanboyism to speak out against it anyway, that you actually resort to dismissing the entire concept of criticism and not liking something?

[fo3nixz]

regular weekly or monthly new  mini-events, (no razorback,no fomorian, no thermia fractures, no ghouls) wuld be nice.

even potato or build forma wuld be nice reward

[SneakyErvin]

6 hours ago, Teljaxx said:

I never said Destiny was better than Warframe. Its not. They have made their own horrible mistakes, plus most of the same ones as Warframe. The main thing they did right was actually making a sequel at some point.

This was never just about Railjack. Its about the fact that DE keeps diluting their game with more and more peripheral stuff, while ignoring the core parts that attracted most of us in the first place. Railjack is just the most obvious example of that, so its what I have been focusing on.

You're also still stuck on DE making a sequel NOW, which I have already said wouldn't work. They missed that bus a long time ago. But that also doesn't excuse anything, because its still DE's fault that it wouldn't work. They made bad choices from day one, and the game suffers from it. Mostly because of people like you who are willing to do this kind of mental gymnastics to excuse them, just because you can't admit that the game that sucks up all your free time isn't as good as you think it is.

Even though they don't show the entire player population, those Steam achievements still totally matter. I seriously doubt there is a massive difference in percentages of players on any other platform. There is absolutely no reason to assume that all Railjack players are clustered onto, say, the Playstation, and none of them are on Steam. Besides, you conveniently ignored the one that matters the most: the kills. How is it that someone like me, who has barely played any Railjack at all, and primarily uses my Archwing when doing to, has gotten the 100 Railjack kills achievement? Yet, somehow, all the supposed huge fans of it that totally exist and play it all the time, haven't gotten that same achievement? That seems like one of the most basic things that everyone should have. And yet, somehow, only a microscopic 1.9% of all Steam players have managed to do so. That is quite telling.

Also, its not that I don't enjoy Railjack as a concept. It was kind of fun, for a few missions. But it doesn't have nearly the staying power DE thinks it does. They clearly want everyone to play it for hours and hours over years and years. But there simply isn't any reason to actually do so. And I doubt there ever will be, because they simply don't have the resources to make it as good as it should be. As we deserve it to be.

Kinda odd you say that one of the things Destiny did good was making a sequel, when the sequel failled horribly at release and still struggles to this day. I mean, it has gone "F2P" and relies on a cash shop, but it still cannot keep itself afloat without also asking for payment for every single actual content release. Expansions that are in no way cheap nor unique either in their content.

Yet about a million of the PC playerbase that has been active since Empyrean got released have built a RJ. I'd say that is a pretty large part that is also attracted to RJ even though they like the rest of the game also.

I'm not stuck on a sequel based on now. I'm saying there hasnt been a time in WF's history where designing a sequel or designing the core around making a sequel would have worked, since the game would have never had the time to grow like it did in either case, so the response from gamers would have been lukewarm. Creating the base game around future sequels would have made it crash and burn, since the changes they had to make that later attracted insane amounts of people wouldnt have been a thing since it would have been a game with an ending. If wouldnt have mattered if they pumped out WF2, 3, 4, 5 or whatever after that, the initial part would have ended up making such things not worth it. But when it is a live service game you can test what works overtime, and you need far less people to do it compared to making several stand alone games. I mean, we know WF had a very rocky start, designing the game to prepare for sequels wouldnt have changed that. There might have been a few different design choices, but likely not many enough to make a different initial impact. Then they'd also have to get a monetization model that would open the possibility for a second installment. And when I personally play a game and a sequel comes out, I tend to think about the game I played, if it was done well and if I wanna spend time on a sequel where things may end up being in the same state.

Yeah the Steam numbers show something, but you also dont really understand the numbers they represent. They are based on a persentage taken from total registered accounts on Steam that have had it installed at one single point during the last 8 years (which is 20m+ since it was 18.6m in 2018). You need to account for the actual active users of the game. And out of the active users it is a far larger percent than those 2%-ish numbers since we know the active playerbase for WF is around 4 million atm. And 2% based on total Steam users translate to 400000 players (2% out of 20m) or 500000 for built RJs. Add in the standalone and other launch options on PC and you sit at 700000-1000000 that have achieved those things on PC. Now compare that to the 4 million unique concurrent users and you have quite a large part of the PC community that has done it and the same numbers likely apply to the other platforms aswell. Even if we removed everything except the Steam users on PC it would still be a whooping 400000 people that have performed the 100 kills and about 500000 thousand of those 4 million active players that have built a Railjack, and that would be the representation from PC only out of those 4 million, which in reality also accounts for all other platforms, increasing number amount of players that have done those thing further. And this is still with genrous math that favors the people that think WF on PC is accurately presented through Steam chart while ignoring the other launcher options we have, like the SA version. And yes it is quite telling, if you actually know how to use the numbers you look at and throw around.

And the reason it doesnt have the staying power could be because it simply isnt... you know... finalized yet. And I think they do have the resources, other things have gotten in the way though that are out of their hands. 

 

[Zimzala]

1 hour ago, Krankbert said:

The particularly nice thing about this mental short-circuit is that you can stop thinking. You can just dismiss any and all criticism that is ever brought against any game without even once engaging your brain.  Just assume that everyone who thinks different from you is a toxic moron who doesn't need to be listened to because he's impossible to please anyway and you'll never have to deal with anyone's opinion ever again.

Can you lot seriously not think of a single thing to say about the specific matter at hand and still feel so compelled by your fanboyism to speak out against it anyway, that you actually resort to dismissing the entire concept of criticism and not liking something?

The particularly nice thing about this is that it takes the idea of recognizing some gamers are determined to be upset at the rest of us for having fun, and assuming that anyone realizing this as reality is, in turn, applying the brush more broadly than is reality, AKA, pot-kettle-black.

When the thread starter is nothing more than an appeal to the 'good old days', why try and make it out to be anything more than the personal, subjective, rant that it is?

Recognizing that there are players determined to be unhappy is not saying everyone that does not agree is one of those players.

But you know, when you whole goal is to try and treat DE and WF players that like the game as if they are the bad guys, I guess it's hard to make the distinction.

[Krankbert]

vor 31 Minuten schrieb Zimzala:

When the thread starter is nothing more than an appeal to the 'good old days', why try and make it out to be anything more than the personal, subjective, rant that it is?

Recognizing that there are players determined to be unhappy is not saying everyone that does not agree is one of those players.

If you didn't think that everyone that does not agree was one of those players, then why say it here? The fact of the matter is that you have zero reason to say this about the thread starter, and you still do it. If you don't care who you say this about, that means either you think it applies to everyone or it's just some dishonest thing you say to put someone down. Do you prefer that I think it is the latter?

vor 31 Minuten schrieb Zimzala:

But you know, when you whole goal is to try and treat DE and WF players that like the game as if they are the bad guys, I guess it's hard to make the distinction.

Someone doesn't like something about the game? His goal must be to treat DE and everyone who likes the game as the bad guys. This sentence alone betrays you.

"Treat WF players that like the game as if they are the bad guys". You seriously think criticizing the game is an insult directed at you.

[Thundervision]

On 2021-02-12 at 7:12 PM, Roble_Viejo said:

You can't say with a straight face that any of the updates from 2019 and
2020 were "far more exciting" than The Sacrifice which came out in 2017

I could probably say the same regarding events...

I miss the Gradivus Dilemma event. Some call it grindy as hell and tedious, but for me the sheer amount of various rewards ('tatos, credits, Lab weapons etc., not a lousy chance to obtain some item X that hundreds of which could be spent on so-called rewards) and pure joy and excitement it gave me  (replaying the same node for 100 times just so Grineer would get hold of a sector w/o getting tired) can't be topped by any latest event.

- I probably missed some good rewards while doing this, but I had fun of doing so and no regrets.

 

But now... No matter how amazing ideas and designs are, most of the time all the events creators' hard work is getting shattered and broken because of some dumb event currency, points etc. economy that turn any joy you'd otherwise get from it into a horrendous repetitive hours-wasting job so DE could have shiny "Players Online" numbers and the players themselves would work toward affording to buy a shiny so-called reward and just getting a nausea feeling when look

Witnessing the very first event (that already had a progression-breaking bug where drones would become invulnerable) and up to this day, the only thing I can say is that we somehow went from simplistic yet rewarding events to the well-thought-out ones concept- & design-wise, but with a simply insane economy (usually meaning grind) where most of the time you have to actually buy your rewards or tear your enemies apart for a 2-5% chance to get a shiny.

Aside bugs, it's just stupid how after the Scarlet Spear, that did have its flaws (on top of the Railjack being a beacon tug), but was also well-rewarding in terms of time and pay, we get the Orphix Venom in the same concept, but with incredibly dragged out progression because it, obviously, lasted for weeks, so it somehow justifies the grind.

That's how I feel about latest events in general (I still liked some of them). I like the work artists and modellers do (scripters, too, obviously), but all it goes in vain when I'm forced to play the same thing over and over again wasting an hour of real time to be able to afford 1.5 items. I have no other feelings and thoughts but "ffs, once I'm done with it, I'm not touching it ever again".

And I guess, this could also be applied to Landscape/Open World nodes.

[Teljaxx]

12 hours ago, KittySkin said:

Super funny is that the 10% time not enjoying it was because I wanted to get a specific thing and didnt wanted to pay plat for it. I also studyied a career where I certainly didnt enjoy even 20% of it, because the career was what I wanted, but the process of doing it wasnt fun at all. Not even a single bit.

Being under the ilussion that a magic item in a game will make it fun again its certainly like an addiction, and as far as Im concerned, its not my case. Even when I decided to do things of the game that I did not enjoyed, that was because the rest of it was enjoyable.

Same can be said about single player games, I absolutly hated certain bosses in dark souls, that doesnt mean the game was bad for me, once I overcome them I enjoyed again the rest of the journey, the same can be said here.

Sometimes they release content that its not appealing to me, but if theres something fun to get from said content, I do it, if not, I dont. And if the mission type its not fun, S#&$ happens, I can live with that as long as once done with it, I can enjoy my new toy on the rest of the game.

Stop trying to compare this to a cocaine addiction, its not even similarly grounded and its WAY off the charts. And this is comming from someone that used to do cocaine when I was younger.

Enduring something that you dont enjoy because theres something that you want at the end of the road its not an addiction, its part of life. It happens in GAS games, happens in single player games, happens in human relationships, in workplaces and in stuying process too. Its impossible to have a 100% enjoy rate on something, theres always that thing that you simply disslike and its goddamn ok, but calling that an addiction its WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY of the charts.

Some games are atrocious, im not going to deny that, lootboxes are the worst of all, but all games have serotonin inducers in them, from killing a hard enemy to looting that so much desired item. And anything that induce serotonin releases on the brain can turn into an addiction, and even having sex or practicing a sport do that!

You admitted to the real problem without even realizing it. Games and work are not the same thing. Games should not induce the same feelings of stress as a job, or studying for a degree. Yet these days, many of them do. And again, that's a massive problem, and what causes burnout. If you ever need to take a break from the thing that you usually use to take a break, then something has gone horribly wrong.

The reason you do work, or study, even if you hate doing its not because its fun, Its because you have to to get your reward. You work to get paid. You study to get a degree, to get paid better. But that's not why you should play video games. You should play them because they are fun. That's why we pay for them, instead of the other way around. But as soon as they introduce heavy grinding, like Warframe, then the game basically becomes a job that you pay to do. And that's not cool.

And the fact that this has become so normalized these days. That people do seem to honestly think that this is good game design. Hek, that a game expecting you to play it, and nothing else, for thousands of hours is a good thing, is just sad.

I mean seriously, I have seen tons of people call Warframe a "time waster", like its a good thing. What kind of messed up society do we live in that intentionally wasting your time is considered good entertainment?

Of course, I'm one to talk about wasting time... Look at me, yelling at the brick wall of internet ignorance that is a gaming forum, expecting to convince anyone of anything.

[KittySkin]

8 minutes ago, Teljaxx said:

You admitted to the real problem without even realizing it. Games and work are not the same thing. Games should not induce the same feelings of stress as a job, or studying for a degree. Yet these days, many of them do. And again, that's a massive problem, and what causes burnout. If you ever need to take a break from the thing that you usually use to take a break, then something has gone horribly wrong.

The reason you do work, or study, even if you hate doing its not because its fun, Its because you have to to get your reward. You work to get paid. You study to get a degree, to get paid better. But that's not why you should play video games. You should play them because they are fun. That's why we pay for them, instead of the other way around. But as soon as they introduce heavy grinding, like Warframe, then the game basically becomes a job that you pay to do. And that's not cool.

And the fact that this has become so normalized these days. That people do seem to honestly think that this is good game design. Hek, that a game expecting you to play it, and nothing else, for thousands of hours is a good thing, is just sad.

I mean seriously, I have seen tons of people call Warframe a "time waster", like its a good thing. What kind of messed up society do we live in that intentionally wasting your time is considered good entertainment?

Of course, I'm one to talk about wasting time... Look at me, yelling at the brick wall of internet ignorance that is a gaming forum, expecting to convince anyone of anything.

I never said warframe produce me any kind of stress, god know that I stoped playing lol because of that. Any kind of ludicrous activity its theorically a "time waster", so its a way too broad definition TBH, and again, games wherent always fun, like never. Even games as old as the very first mario bross was a nightmare for people that cant simply stop.

The issue at least for me, its not about games, but about people. As you said, messed up society that needs ANYTHING in order to distract itself from its horrible life, non realized dreams, etc.

Be games, drugs, overworking, overtraining, anything that you do to the point of burning out, its because you are having an issue and are trying to blame the issue into other stuff or hide it. You can even be burned out of having sex, something that its the peak definition of "ludicrous activity", and thats a sign that its not the game industry, but the way people take stuff.

I used to be burned out of the game (and general gaming) and realized that I was just hidding away from other stuff that was really destroying me on an emotional level (familiar stuff, not something to bring to the table), once I fixed that, I started to enjoy gaming again and was able to take distance from activities that where a chore, games are a product, they are meant to produce money and nothing else, they produce money entertaining people, and if the society its as messed up as you said, games are  going to cather to that, distracting people from its life as long as possible.

Compared to most GAS games, warframe behaves pretty well TBH, and compared to other non GAS games it fares pretty well too.

Lets hope for our society to fix itself (something that its not going to happen and we know it), but blaming the gaming industry for doing industry desicions its not the best way to aim to the real issue and fix it.

Also, nice chat, enjoying it a lot :)

[Teljaxx]

  

8 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

Kinda odd you say that one of the things Destiny did good was making a sequel, when the sequel failled horribly at release and still struggles to this day. I mean, it has gone "F2P" and relies on a cash shop, but it still cannot keep itself afloat without also asking for payment for every single actual content release. Expansions that are in no way cheap nor unique either in their content.

Yet about a million of the PC playerbase that has been active since Empyrean got released have built a RJ. I'd say that is a pretty large part that is also attracted to RJ even though they like the rest of the game also.

I'm not stuck on a sequel based on now. I'm saying there hasnt been a time in WF's history where designing a sequel or designing the core around making a sequel would have worked, since the game would have never had the time to grow like it did in either case, so the response from gamers would have been lukewarm. Creating the base game around future sequels would have made it crash and burn, since the changes they had to make that later attracted insane amounts of people wouldnt have been a thing since it would have been a game with an ending. If wouldnt have mattered if they pumped out WF2, 3, 4, 5 or whatever after that, the initial part would have ended up making such things not worth it. But when it is a live service game you can test what works overtime, and you need far less people to do it compared to making several stand alone games. I mean, we know WF had a very rocky start, designing the game to prepare for sequels wouldnt have changed that. There might have been a few different design choices, but likely not many enough to make a different initial impact. Then they'd also have to get a monetization model that would open the possibility for a second installment. And when I personally play a game and a sequel comes out, I tend to think about the game I played, if it was done well and if I wanna spend time on a sequel where things may end up being in the same state.

Yeah the Steam numbers show something, but you also dont really understand the numbers they represent. They are based on a persentage taken from total registered accounts on Steam that have had it installed at one single point during the last 8 years (which is 20m+ since it was 18.6m in 2018). You need to account for the actual active users of the game. And out of the active users it is a far larger percent than those 2%-ish numbers since we know the active playerbase for WF is around 4 million atm. And 2% based on total Steam users translate to 400000 players (2% out of 20m) or 500000 for built RJs. Add in the standalone and other launch options on PC and you sit at 700000-1000000 that have achieved those things on PC. Now compare that to the 4 million unique concurrent users and you have quite a large part of the PC community that has done it and the same numbers likely apply to the other platforms aswell. Even if we removed everything except the Steam users on PC it would still be a whooping 400000 people that have performed the 100 kills and about 500000 thousand of those 4 million active players that have built a Railjack, and that would be the representation from PC only out of those 4 million, which in reality also accounts for all other platforms, increasing number amount of players that have done those thing further. And this is still with genrous math that favors the people that think WF on PC is accurately presented through Steam chart while ignoring the other launcher options we have, like the SA version. And yes it is quite telling, if you actually know how to use the numbers you look at and throw around.

And the reason it doesnt have the staying power could be because it simply isnt... you know... finalized yet. And I think they do have the resources, other things have gotten in the way though that are out of their hands. 

 

You don't seem to understand the point of sequels. You claim that Warframe wouldn't have had the chance to grow if they had made Warframe 2. But that's exactly how it would have grown.

Sequels actually let games grow much more effectively than "Live Service" development does. Because they let the developers actually undo their mistakes, along with adding new things and moving forwards. "Live Service" games can't do that nearly as easily. There, they just have to sweep the mess under the rug, and hope no one notices.

For example: Warframe is currently on the (unfinished) 3.0 version of its melee system. That system still has some of the DNA of the very first one version hidden deep within it. And that can cause some strange problems to happen. Its like trying to use the exact same engine in multiple different cars. Sure, it might still work, but you would be much better off if you had one that was specifically designed for each one, instead of the same old worn out hand-me-down.

Plus, the other advantage of sequels, as I mentioned earlier, is that they don't take away as much from their players. Even though the second game is out, you can still go back and play the first one if you like it better. Or, if you like the second one best, you can play it. Its the player's choice, and that is extremely important for player satisfaction. Its also something that "Live Service" games don't provide. There, if the Devs change something, you have to deal with it. There is no old version to go back to.

And of course, the worst part of "Live Service" games: They inevitably die. And at that point, it literally becomes impossible to play any version of it at all. Hope those thousands of hours you spent on it were fun, since all those fancy rewards you farmed up don't exist anymore.

Every "Live Service" ends on a sour note. You ether play it until you get burnt out, and leave. Play it until the Devs change it so much you no longer enjoy it. Or, you play it until it dies an inglorious death, and you lament never being able to play it ever again. Fun! And totally worth it.

Not to mention the fact that everything in "Live Service" games releases unfinished. And even though you seem to think so, that isn't an excuse for poor quality. If its not worth playing, its not worth playing, end of story. It doesn't matter why. It doesn't matter if the Devs have *Promised* that it will get better. Its still bad right now.

[Teljaxx]

6 minutes ago, KittySkin said:

I never said warframe produce me any kind of stress, god know that I stoped playing lol because of that. Any kind of ludicrous activity its theorically a "time waster", so its a way too broad definition TBH, and again, games wherent always fun, like never. Even games as old as the very first mario bross was a nightmare for people that cant simply stop.

The issue at least for me, its not about games, but about people. As you said, messed up society that needs ANYTHING in order to distract itself from its horrible life, non realized dreams, etc.

Be games, drugs, overworking, overtraining, anything that you do to the point of burning out, its because you are having an issue and are trying to blame the issue into other stuff or hide it. You can even be burned out of having sex, something that its the peak definition of "ludicrous activity", and thats a sign that its not the game industry, but the way people take stuff.

I used to be burned out of the game (and general gaming) and realized that I was just hidding away from other stuff that was really destroying me on an emotional level (familiar stuff, not something to bring to the table), once I fixed that, I started to enjoy gaming again and was able to take distance from activities that where a chore, games are a product, they are meant to produce money and nothing else, they produce money entertaining people, and if the society its as messed up as you said, games are  going to cather to that, distracting people from its life as long as possible.

Compared to most GAS games, warframe behaves pretty well TBH, and compared to other non GAS games it fares pretty well too.

Lets hope for our society to fix itself (something that its not going to happen and we know it), but blaming the gaming industry for doing industry desicions its not the best way to aim to the real issue and fix it.

Also, nice chat, enjoying it a lot :)

Sure, any game can be stressful. But most of the time, you can just stop playing if it gets to be too much. But, with Warframe, much of that stress comes from things like limited time events, where if you don't play RIGHT NOW, to get those items RIGHT NOW, you might miss them forever. In that situation, not playing is actually what causes the stress, so then what are you supposed to do about it? I mean, even though I barely even care about any of the items DE keeps adding (They're useless if you never play to use them, after all.) I still get that little twinge of regret whenever something goes away, and I didn't get it.

And that's because, as you said, Warframe is like a drug. Its designed to be addictive. That's the only way DE can get people to play it for so long. But its still not good game design, even if it is better than the rest. That's not exactly hard to do in this market. Its like saying Stalin was a great guy, because at least he wasn't Hitler. It would matter if these were the only games to choose from, but they aren't. There are still plenty of other games to play that don't rely on all this manipulative crap to squeeze as much profit as they can out of their audience.

You are right, anyone can get addicted to anything. But the bad thing about games like Warframe is that they are intentionally designed to be addictive, while ones like Mario aren't. And that's because they need their players to never stop playing, to keep making money. That's how DLC and Microtransactions work. Nintendo didn't need to manipulate people into playing Mario forever, because that's not how it made money. It was actually better for them if their players play it for a bit, then move on to a different game. And, it was better for the players, because they got more choice over the games they had to play. They weren't just stuck playing only Mario, desperately hoping for Nintendo to put out more updates to keep things fresh. And desperately hoping that the next update doesn't ruin the whole game. And that the game stays successful enough to keep getting updates, instead of vanishing forever. And they didn't need to stress out over missing limited time events.

Its actually surprising that the "AAA" Industry hasn't choked itself to death on all these infinite games they keep trying to make. They want everyone to simply play one game forever. But then they also keep releasing new ones of those games every couple months.

Also, there is a massive difference between wanting some good entertainment after a long day's work, and being so desperate for any escape that even the most brainless activity is acceptable. Again, its not just Warframe, its the popularity of all the "time waster" games out there. Really, the fact that that's even a common enough thing to be considered a valid genre of game speaks volumes. They are especially popular on mobile, of course, since people are apparently so afraid of simply sitting quietly, alone with their thoughts for even a few minutes, that playing (and paying for) something as pointless as Candy Crush is preferable. Again, this says bad things about society overall.

Warframe is definitely an extension of that same mentality. That's why its gotten easier, and less balanced over time. Powercreep is a feature, not a flaw, because DE wants to cater to those people that don't want to try, or think about anything. The player's that just want to be able to buy the biggest gun, then hold the go button and win, every time. Which is why, the only time I actually enjoy playing Warframe anymore is when my insomnia kicks in, and I am so tired I can't think clearly enough to play anything else. Then Warframe's super mindless, impossible to lose, gameplay is perfect to help me finally get to sleep. And no, that is not a compliment to the game.

[KittySkin]

3 hours ago, Teljaxx said:

Sure, any game can be stressful. But most of the time, you can just stop playing if it gets to be too much. But, with Warframe, much of that stress comes from things like limited time events, where if you don't play RIGHT NOW, to get those items RIGHT NOW, you might miss them forever. In that situation, not playing is actually what causes the stress, so then what are you supposed to do about it? I mean, even though I barely even care about any of the items DE keeps adding (They're useless if you never play to use them, after all.) I still get that little twinge of regret whenever something goes away, and I didn't get it.

And that's because, as you said, Warframe is like a drug. Its designed to be addictive. That's the only way DE can get people to play it for so long. But its still not good game design, even if it is better than the rest. That's not exactly hard to do in this market. Its like saying Stalin was a great guy, because at least he wasn't Hitler. It would matter if these were the only games to choose from, but they aren't. There are still plenty of other games to play that don't rely on all this manipulative crap to squeeze as much profit as they can out of their audience.

You are right, anyone can get addicted to anything. But the bad thing about games like Warframe is that they are intentionally designed to be addictive, while ones like Mario aren't. And that's because they need their players to never stop playing, to keep making money. That's how DLC and Microtransactions work. Nintendo didn't need to manipulate people into playing Mario forever, because that's not how it made money. It was actually better for them if their players play it for a bit, then move on to a different game. And, it was better for the players, because they got more choice over the games they had to play. They weren't just stuck playing only Mario, desperately hoping for Nintendo to put out more updates to keep things fresh. And desperately hoping that the next update doesn't ruin the whole game. And that the game stays successful enough to keep getting updates, instead of vanishing forever. And they didn't need to stress out over missing limited time events.

Its actually surprising that the "AAA" Industry hasn't choked itself to death on all these infinite games they keep trying to make. They want everyone to simply play one game forever. But then they also keep releasing new ones of those games every couple months.

Also, there is a massive difference between wanting some good entertainment after a long day's work, and being so desperate for any escape that even the most brainless activity is acceptable. Again, its not just Warframe, its the popularity of all the "time waster" games out there. Really, the fact that that's even a common enough thing to be considered a valid genre of game speaks volumes. They are especially popular on mobile, of course, since people are apparently so afraid of simply sitting quietly, alone with their thoughts for even a few minutes, that playing (and paying for) something as pointless as Candy Crush is preferable. Again, this says bad things about society overall.

Warframe is definitely an extension of that same mentality. That's why its gotten easier, and less balanced over time. Powercreep is a feature, not a flaw, because DE wants to cater to those people that don't want to try, or think about anything. The player's that just want to be able to buy the biggest gun, then hold the go button and win, every time. Which is why, the only time I actually enjoy playing Warframe anymore is when my insomnia kicks in, and I am so tired I can't think clearly enough to play anything else. Then Warframe's super mindless, impossible to lose, gameplay is perfect to help me finally get to sleep. And no, that is not a compliment to the game.

100% agree on FOMO strategy being S#&$. At least DE re release everything from time to time and usually on a stupidly easy to get way, but its attrocious. I stoped playing a lot of games because constant FOMO or constant need to keep up with the endgame, thats a thing I like about warframe actually. It has no endgame, no real challenge, so when Im tired as #*!%, I can just sit, take what im in the mood to use and go jam.

IDK if its a good or a bad thing, but I enjoy relaxed gameplay from time to time, and I also enjoy stupidly hard games too, guess its all about my mental state at the time.

One thing I hate from warframe was the "catch up" thing wjen they release S#&$loads of stuff and you want to be up to date again. Can seriously get why this is S#&$ty for people, specially those who lack any kind of self control or are prone to develop adictions.

Also, IDK if mario's strategy its less S#&$, I mean, release a game, let it die, release a game, let it die, etc. And make people buy again and again and again the same thing with brand new colors. Its not something that I can see as a good practice, even if its healthier than the actual GAS one.

Also, for AAA studios not chocking themselfs, they do GAS rotations. Its an industry technique, I actually studied it.

They release a "big new game", push for it to get as much users as they can, gradually start to milk them until they strike balance between S#&$ty tactics and people endurance and then release another big game to cather to audience not previously cathered.

In game design career we see this and get tasked to investigate and identify the addictive components of different games and see how that is linked to monetization, how said game belongs to a segmented market, etc.

Its pretty interesting although terrifying since you realize how absurdly easy its to cheat people and milk them away from every single penny they have.

Personally im developing my game as a non GAS one, with just regular DLCs (old school quality DLCs, not this S#&$ty skins and additional single mission for 10 usd).

[SneakyErvin]

11 hours ago, Teljaxx said:

  

You don't seem to understand the point of sequels. You claim that Warframe wouldn't have had the chance to grow if they had made Warframe 2. But that's exactly how it would have grown.

Sequels actually let games grow much more effectively than "Live Service" development does. Because they let the developers actually undo their mistakes, along with adding new things and moving forwards. "Live Service" games can't do that nearly as easily. There, they just have to sweep the mess under the rug, and hope no one notices.

For example: Warframe is currently on the (unfinished) 3.0 version of its melee system. That system still has some of the DNA of the very first one version hidden deep within it. And that can cause some strange problems to happen. Its like trying to use the exact same engine in multiple different cars. Sure, it might still work, but you would be much better off if you had one that was specifically designed for each one, instead of the same old worn out hand-me-down.

Plus, the other advantage of sequels, as I mentioned earlier, is that they don't take away as much from their players. Even though the second game is out, you can still go back and play the first one if you like it better. Or, if you like the second one best, you can play it. Its the player's choice, and that is extremely important for player satisfaction. Its also something that "Live Service" games don't provide. There, if the Devs change something, you have to deal with it. There is no old version to go back to.

And of course, the worst part of "Live Service" games: They inevitably die. And at that point, it literally becomes impossible to play any version of it at all. Hope those thousands of hours you spent on it were fun, since all those fancy rewards you farmed up don't exist anymore.

Every "Live Service" ends on a sour note. You ether play it until you get burnt out, and leave. Play it until the Devs change it so much you no longer enjoy it. Or, you play it until it dies an inglorious death, and you lament never being able to play it ever again. Fun! And totally worth it.

Not to mention the fact that everything in "Live Service" games releases unfinished. And even though you seem to think so, that isn't an excuse for poor quality. If its not worth playing, its not worth playing, end of story. It doesn't matter why. It doesn't matter if the Devs have *Promised* that it will get better. Its still bad right now.

No a sequel would have only let it grow if it was successful at start so people would have faith in a sequel aswell as the dev studio making it. If WF had been popular right out the door with no need to grow through quite drastic changes, then yeah a sequel would have worked. But we can only go on what we know about WF's history and initial state, which shows us a sequel wouldnt have made a difference since people would have already given up on the game/frenchise/company by then. I have plenty of failed games in my past, and there are none of them were I'd pick up a sequel if there ever was one made since I already have a grasp of how things worked out during the first try.

Do you have even remotely valid evidence to support that far fetched theory? Live service games, especially those that are free to play or B2P with free future content are the ones that most easily have a chance to change, since it costs nothing for the player to come back and try the new thing. As opposed to a game with a sequel, where a new buy in is needed to try the possible improvements. And in order for a sequel based WF to have had a chance, it would have had to be a B2P game initially to raise funds for a sequel.

There is a benefit of sequel based games yes, but there are also drawbacks. No actual time investment options that allow replayability, since they tend to have an ending, they also eventually stop getting supported. Live service games can allow you to invest time over years and years to come while presenting you with new things to do aswell. I just played through The Witcher 3 and prior to that Shadow Warrior 2, both games being sequel and expansion based. It was a fun playthrough on each, but they both quickly grew old when you'd gone through the game. I started up NG+ in The Witcher 3 and made it to Velen, then I was bored out of my mind since I had already seen it all and there was no longer any value in it. Same with Shadow Warrior 2, did some extra grinding after finishing the game at a higher difficulty, but it was the same with no actual future content to grind for or progress towards. And even in "normal" games you run into stuff like having to live with the changes the dev does even when patching isnt mandatory. You may sit there refusing to get a patch since X thing is changed, while also missing out on Y change that is a positive change you could benefit from.

GAAS games ending isnt a problem, since by the time most of them end, you are already fed up with them and have moved on. I spent years in DaoC and WoW, both those games are still very much alive and kicking, but I dont play them anymore. The one single game I've played that got shut down prior to me quitting it was Marvel Heroes. But I still have 4000+ fond hours in that game, something I wouldnt have had in it if it wasnt a GAAS game. And we can compare that to D3 and Grim Dawn, both being non-gaas games really, games that I've barely played a 10th of the hours that I spent in Marvel Heroes, since they never had significant updates that gave a reason for progress. And now we sit here 9 years later with D3 and their sequel still isnt out, then when you add to that you had 11 years between the second and third installment of the frenchise.

Stop using the word "fact" since it isnt fact. There is no difference between unifnished live service game and "normal" games, both can release in unfinished states and both cannot. Live service simply means a content plan beyond the initial finished release, like we've seen in games like WoW and other MMOs. Vanilla WoW was feature complete, the rest of the releases from content patches to expansions was simply their way of setting up the future of the game. No different to a game packing everything in expansions just to avoid being a gaas game. It doesnt matter what type the game is, if the content that is released is unfinished, then it is unfinished, there is no grey area. By your own logic CP2077 would have been flawless since it isnt a live service game while Vanilla WoW should have been a broken mess, both times it released. And here we sit with the opposite outcome.

[(PSN)Wil_Shatner_face]

13 hours ago, Teljaxx said:

Of course, I'm one to talk about wasting time... Look at me, yelling at the brick wall of internet ignorance that is a gaming forum, expecting to convince anyone of anything.

The irony of this statement is hilarious. You just can’t seem to understand that different people enjoy different things. Literally every thread you post in you tell everyone who enjoys the game that they’re wrong, and they shouldn’t be having fun playing WF.

It’s like you think you’re smarter than the rest of us for seeing Warframe for what it really is, and we’re all just too ignorant to understand.

I just don’t get it. Why do you care so much that other people like this game? What are you trying to accomplish? I don’t like peas, so I just don’t eat them. I don’t tell everyone who likes peas that they’re wrong. You’re a confusing individual.

”Warframe is bad and anyone who disagrees is wrong” - You, all the time.

[Zimzala]

23 hours ago, Krankbert said:

"Treat WF players that like the game as if they are the bad guys". You seriously think criticizing the game is an insult directed at you.

Nope.

The fact of the matter is that some posters/players take out their FUD about WF on both players and DE.

As I stated and you directly ignored, pointing out that some posters/players hold intractable opinions does not, in fact, mean, say, or imply that all players with a contradictory opinion are intractable.

I don't think that posters here are all jerks that are out to get DE over their FUD against game companies stealing from them, just some of them, for example.

1 hour ago, (PSN)Wil_Shatner_face said:

”Warframe is bad and anyone who disagrees is wrong” - You, all the time.

As others point out, they are here, just like they are in all things.

Some people are just unhappy and want everyone else to be unhappy and not have fun playing a game they now dislike.

IME, those players that have decided WF/DE are the bad guys have a really hard time accepting reality.

Pining for the 'good old days' is long tired trope from an POV that does nothing by try and hold back progress, just like in every other aspect of life, IME?IMO.

One Google search will show you how this 'good old days' things is a huge fallacy.

Why should I give any real response to an idea that's based on a fallacy?

[Krankbert]

vor 13 Minuten schrieb Zimzala:

Nope.

The fact of the matter is that some posters/players take out their FUD about WF on both players and DE.

As I stated and you directly ignored, pointing out that some posters/players hold intractable opinions does not, in fact, mean, say, or imply that all players with a contradictory opinion are intractable.

I'm sorry, apparently you must have accidentially not read this part of the comment you quoted, where I directly addressed that point:

vor 23 Stunden schrieb Krankbert:

If you didn't think that everyone that does not agree was one of those players, then why say it here? The fact of the matter is that you have zero reason to say this about the thread starter, and you still do it. If you don't care who you say this about, that means either you think it applies to everyone or it's just some dishonest thing you say to put someone down. Do you prefer that I think it is the latter?

(How do you "directly ignore" something anyway.)

[Zimzala]

1 minute ago, Krankbert said:

I'm sorry, apparently you must have accidentially not read this part of the comment you quoted, where I directly addressed that point:

(How do you "directly ignore" something anyway.)

I saw what you wrote and you still try to make theses things binary when they are grey-gray, IMO.

You ignore the fact I am saying it's grey-gray, and try to use the words to imply what I 'should' or 'should not' be doing, when you don't get to dictate that for me.

You try to twist my words into something you can attack.

So, we are done. Have a nice life, I hope you find happiness, we will not interact further. 🖖

[Krankbert]

vor 5 Minuten schrieb Zimzala:

I saw what you wrote

Okay then. So when you said that I ignored what you wrote, you had actually seen my response and were just lying?

[(XBOX)IIIIRED1IIII]

On 2021-02-20 at 6:22 AM, Krankbert said:

The particularly nice thing about this mental short-circuit is that you can stop thinking. You can just dismiss any and all criticism that is ever brought against any game without even once engaging your brain.  Just assume that everyone who thinks different from you is a toxic moron who doesn't need to be listened to because he's impossible to please anyway and you'll never have to deal with anyone's opinion ever again.

Can you lot seriously not think of a single thing to say about the specific matter at hand and still feel so compelled by your fanboyism to speak out against it anyway, that you actually resort to dismissing the entire concept of criticism and not liking something?

I mean it can go both ways. It’s good to have a balanced way of thinking. Just a lot people will complain about something even though it’s fine. It’s just that they have a lack of understanding on how it works so they think it’s a flaw with the system rather then themselves.

[Teljaxx]

13 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

No a sequel would have only let it grow if it was successful at start so people would have faith in a sequel aswell as the dev studio making it. If WF had been popular right out the door with no need to grow through quite drastic changes, then yeah a sequel would have worked. But we can only go on what we know about WF's history and initial state, which shows us a sequel wouldnt have made a difference since people would have already given up on the game/frenchise/company by then. I have plenty of failed games in my past, and there are none of them were I'd pick up a sequel if there ever was one made since I already have a grasp of how things worked out during the first try.

Do you have even remotely valid evidence to support that far fetched theory? Live service games, especially those that are free to play or B2P with free future content are the ones that most easily have a chance to change, since it costs nothing for the player to come back and try the new thing. As opposed to a game with a sequel, where a new buy in is needed to try the possible improvements. And in order for a sequel based WF to have had a chance, it would have had to be a B2P game initially to raise funds for a sequel.

There is a benefit of sequel based games yes, but there are also drawbacks. No actual time investment options that allow replayability, since they tend to have an ending, they also eventually stop getting supported. Live service games can allow you to invest time over years and years to come while presenting you with new things to do aswell. I just played through The Witcher 3 and prior to that Shadow Warrior 2, both games being sequel and expansion based. It was a fun playthrough on each, but they both quickly grew old when you'd gone through the game. I started up NG+ in The Witcher 3 and made it to Velen, then I was bored out of my mind since I had already seen it all and there was no longer any value in it. Same with Shadow Warrior 2, did some extra grinding after finishing the game at a higher difficulty, but it was the same with no actual future content to grind for or progress towards. And even in "normal" games you run into stuff like having to live with the changes the dev does even when patching isnt mandatory. You may sit there refusing to get a patch since X thing is changed, while also missing out on Y change that is a positive change you could benefit from.

GAAS games ending isnt a problem, since by the time most of them end, you are already fed up with them and have moved on. I spent years in DaoC and WoW, both those games are still very much alive and kicking, but I dont play them anymore. The one single game I've played that got shut down prior to me quitting it was Marvel Heroes. But I still have 4000+ fond hours in that game, something I wouldnt have had in it if it wasnt a GAAS game. And we can compare that to D3 and Grim Dawn, both being non-gaas games really, games that I've barely played a 10th of the hours that I spent in Marvel Heroes, since they never had significant updates that gave a reason for progress. And now we sit here 9 years later with D3 and their sequel still isnt out, then when you add to that you had 11 years between the second and third installment of the frenchise.

Stop using the word "fact" since it isnt fact. There is no difference between unifnished live service game and "normal" games, both can release in unfinished states and both cannot. Live service simply means a content plan beyond the initial finished release, like we've seen in games like WoW and other MMOs. Vanilla WoW was feature complete, the rest of the releases from content patches to expansions was simply their way of setting up the future of the game. No different to a game packing everything in expansions just to avoid being a gaas game. It doesnt matter what type the game is, if the content that is released is unfinished, then it is unfinished, there is no grey area. By your own logic CP2077 would have been flawless since it isnt a live service game while Vanilla WoW should have been a broken mess, both times it released. And here we sit with the opposite outcome.

You are basing your entire argument here on the assumption that playing a game forever is a good thing. That's not true. Doing something for so long that you start to hate it is unhealthy. Its more likely addiction, than true enjoyment. And I have already mentioned how all these games are designed to be more addicting than fun.

Its far better to play a game for a finite amount of time, enjoy the entire thing, have it end in a satisfying way, then move on to something else. Because that way, you can still come back to it again later, and enjoy it all over again if you want. And even if you never do come back, you still have all the happy memories from when you did play it. They haven't been ruined by burnout. This is why people still play things like the very first Mario, or Doom, despite having beaten them hundreds of times over the last 25-30 years. They never wear out their welcome, and let you play them on your schedule, not theirs.

The problem is that the only way to actually make a game playable for thousands of hours is with massive amounts of padding. Like grinding. And grinding isn't fun, its work. Having a system where you collect things, like resources for crafting or XP for leveling up, is fine. As long as it isn't the only progression system in the game. But that's how Warframe and its contemporaries work. Beyond some tiny part of the game, like the starchart, or quests, the only way to make progress is to grind for things simply for the sake of grinding for things. And that's just plain lazy design.

And that's the entire reason why a Warframe sequel wouldn't work. Its because it would end up completely nullifying all of the work we have put into grinding for stuff over the last 8 years. But that's not a flaw with the concept of sequels, its a flaw with Warframe itself. And its a conscious choice DE made from the beginning. They chose to make this game all fluff, no substance. And now its too late to go back.

I also never said sequential games can't be flawed. Or that those flaws can't be fixed. But there is a point when trying to fix what already exists just plain isn't worth it, and starting from scratch is the best option. Like with Anthem. They are currently working on a massive "Anthem 2.0" update that will supposedly fix everything. I seriously doubt it will. The flaws in that game run so deep that really, the only way to truly fix it would be to start over, and actually spend more than 11 months making it this time.

But, thanks to people like you, with your self defeating attitude of "if the first wasn't good, the sequel wont be either", they can't do that, and are now stuck trying to duct tape their mess back together as best they can.

[Teljaxx]

13 hours ago, (PSN)Wil_Shatner_face said:

The irony of this statement is hilarious. You just can’t seem to understand that different people enjoy different things. Literally every thread you post in you tell everyone who enjoys the game that they’re wrong, and they shouldn’t be having fun playing WF.

It’s like you think you’re smarter than the rest of us for seeing Warframe for what it really is, and we’re all just too ignorant to understand.

I just don’t get it. Why do you care so much that other people like this game? What are you trying to accomplish? I don’t like peas, so I just don’t eat them. I don’t tell everyone who likes peas that they’re wrong. You’re a confusing individual.

”Warframe is bad and anyone who disagrees is wrong” - You, all the time.

  I have never said people can't enjoy Warframe. As a matter of fact, the entire problem I have with it is that there is still fun to be had here. If there wasn't, I wouldn't say anything, and would have just abandoned it long a go.

The problem is that all the bits fun it does offer are buried under giant disgusting piles if terrible game design. Its like having to dig through a landfill for the few nuggets of gold that might be hidden in there. And every update, DE adds a new gold nugget, along with another ton of garbage.

The other problem I have is that so many people will so vehemently defend this, and act like Warframe is the best game ever made. They will bend over backwards to defend DE for blessing them with such huge mountains of garbage to dig through. Again, I wouldn't have a problem with this, if it was limited to only Warframe. But this zealous love of all the terrible things Warframe does affects the game industry as a whole. These kinds of addiction manipulating, FOMO inducing, grind padded BS mechanics have become all too common, and have ruined far too many games that could have been otherwise great. I am sick and tired of it being this way. And I am sick and tired of so many people simply accepting it as normal, like there is no other way to make games.

So sure, you can interpret this as me being all smug and superior. But if more people acted like this, if more people were actually as critical of their entertainment as I am, we would all benefit from it. Because there would be no complacent masses for the cheap and greedy "AAA" industry to market these games to. So the would finally be forced to actually innovate, and try being creative for once, the way the indie sector does, instead of just farting out more of whatever is the most profitable fad that year.

So its not just "Warframe is bad" as you oversimplified. Its that Warframe, and way too many other games, do a lot of bad things in the name of profitability that they don't really need to. And anyone that is willing to just lie back and accept that is a fool.