The Eros Wings Ephemera and the design of Warframe

[_R_o_g_u_e_]

10 minutes ago, Sace said:

Why, though? It's just a whimsical addition and does not subtract to your gameplay in any way. I am under the impression that adding more choice is always desirable.

But you aren't asking for more choice, you're asking to be able to censor other plays appearance. I don't imagine DE will ever implement a system that allows you to change how someone else looks, and I'm glad of that.  

[(XBOX)YoungGunn82]

34 minutes ago, Hypernaut1 said:

Right now everyone thinks they look cool with wings. Hopefully it'll die down in a few weeks.

This is probably most likely. I’ll admit tho when I saw a Mesa Prime with wings, I cringed a little bit. 

[SneakyErvin]

21 hours ago, AndrejDelaney said:

 

Without the Orokin Grineer wouldn't exist. They were and still are Orokin creations, nothing will ever change that. And I believe that the Orokin themselves believed their technology to be perfect - but look at Ordis. Look at the Orokin towers. Yes, look at the Grineer and the state they are in, right now (Shouldn't perfect technology also lead to perfect results that can withstand time?). Look at the Sentients and their rebellion against their creators who were - who would have thought - the Orokin. Doesn't look like perfect technology to me - because if it were, why did the Orokin empire fall? But I really don't want to get further into this, as it goes beyond the topic of this thread.

So are all the Syandanas that have energy trails coming off them now also holographic? C'mon. 

I already proposed 2 examples as to how you could have altered the look to fit the event AND the overall design of Warframe. 

Again: Classic, High Fantasy <-> Science Fiction. Two different things that follow two different design philosophies. You can mix and match to an extent and make it work - but not by simply glueing them to each other.

Things can break over time no matter how perfect they are. Just as the Grineer has broken down over time since they rely on new technology to keep themselves "populated". And you were the one to mention perfection, I still dont know why. I simply answered to that. And you took it from being about perfectly looking wings to suddenly be about perfection in technology. Your initial gripe was that they looked too perfect to fit. Even though we have "perfect" looking frames already.

No but we talk about an ephemera, which isnt a syandana. We do for that matter also have holographic syandanas, several infact. And all ephemeras are probably holograms when we consider what they do.

The wings already fit since they have nothing to do with if it is fantasy, high fantasy or sci-fi. They simply fit the innocent event they come from. And if you must have them fit, we just need to look at the gothic inspiration in WF, and feathered "angelic" wings already have their place a very short step away. And what is this "overall design of Warframe" when we have so many different design inspirations already? We can just look at the several screenshots where we can see these wings fitting perfectly fine with the design of several frames and even more so in the environment of several of those screenshots.

[Sace]

vor 17 Minuten schrieb Zimzala:

My point is no matter WHAT is changed, no matter HOW, it's changed, the player base will go to war over it, and claim they are not, in fact, a school of piranha ready to turn on themselves.

A toggle to remove the whimsical additions the developers choose to add is direct play to dictate the design, from my POV, based on disliking the whimsy that has been added.

While the whole 'cannot see the screen bug' on clients is a real issue, the rest of things I read are just players arguing over their precious being violated with whimsy.

Adding a toggle to remove the whimsy is just adding a toggle to allow people to remain intolerant of developer design choices, IMO. 😁

Do I have a 'problem' with a toggle for things? Nope.

Do I think the developers should bow to such pressure to remove whimsy? Nope.

If anything, enabling players to choose the default look of warframes is actually adhering to developers design choices, not being intolerant about it. And I am not asking to remove anything, it should merely be toggled invisible or reverted from the players point of view. 

Also, as a strict solo-player, I don't think your opinion even qualifies because you, probably unlike everyone else here, are not even remotely affected by the things mentioned here. Sorry.

 

[Zimzala]

5 minutes ago, Sace said:

If anything, enabling players to choose the default look of warframes is actually adhering to developers design choices, not being intolerant about it. And I am not asking to remove anything, it should merely be toggled invisible or reverted from the players point of view. 

Also, as a strict solo-player, I don't think your opinion even qualifies because you, out of everyone else here, are not even remotely affected by the things mentioned here. Sorry.

 

Adding the whimsy was a developer design choice.

So now my opinion is not valid because I solo, that's rich!

So, I never go to hubs? Since I solo I have no valid aesthetic or design opinions unless they relate to solo play? Since I choose to solo because of players that want to tell me what to do and how to dress, I don't get an opinion?

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

[Krankbert]

vor 3 Minuten schrieb Zimzala:

So now my opinion is not valid because I solo, that's rich!

Yeah, how absurd. He should have gone with saying that your opinion is not valid because you're just programmed by Youtube. That's a classic that seems to be very popular around here.

Maybe also say that you're "rabid" or "having a meltdown" because you're posting an opinion here.

[Zimzala]

2 minutes ago, Krankbert said:

Yeah, how absurd. He should have gone with saying that your opinion is not valid because you're just programmed by Youtube. That's a classic that seems to be very popular around here.

Maybe also say that you're "rabid" or "having a meltdown" because you're posting an opinion here.

Rabid gamer opinions conveyed in the middle of meltdowns over aesthetic changes are still valid opinions, even if I disagree with them.

See the difference?

[Sace]

vor 4 Minuten schrieb Zimzala:

Adding the whimsy was a developer design choice.

So now my opinion is not valid because I solo, that's rich!

So, I never go to hubs? Since I solo I have no valid aesthetic or design opinions unless they relate to solo play? Since I choose to solo because of players that want to tell me what to do and how to dress, I don't get an opinion?

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

Damn, who is having a meltdown now? 😮

Imagine me explaining how developers should not bow to people complaining how bad the first iteration of Gauss is while never ever playing Gauss myself because I like Nezha more.

"Guys, I don't care how bad Gauss is, IT'S DESIGN CHOICE!"

You are here now explaining me how my perception is flawed and that it is no big deal while never being in the same position after all because you don't have foreign wings in your face in most missions. 

I can see how you just argue against a simple toggle out of spite, I just think that it's irrational.

[SneakyErvin]

1 hour ago, Sace said:

Exactly my point. There is no harm in adding a little toggle to disable any seasonal stuff ingame to further tweak the visual representation to the players preferences. Why do people make such a big deal of this?

I would honestly support a toggle for everything possible when it comes to cosmetics. Some people prefer a classic look and not having others being able to interfear with that would be great. It would have no impact on the player tooting their new shiny skin since they'd still see it all the same on their frame, but it would be a great thing for everyone else in the group.

Just an option each for the different cosmetic options.

Attachments for other players: On/off

Syandana On/off

Ephemera On/off

Show classic skin On/off

Show classic colors On/off

etc.

[Krankbert]

vor 16 Minuten schrieb Zimzala:

Rabid gamer opinions conveyed in the middle of meltdowns over aesthetic changes are still valid opinions, even if I disagree with them.

See the difference?

Those were all direct quotes from comments you made recently, including the one dismissing others' opinions entirely as mere programming by Youtubers. There is no difference between that and what you're doing because that is what you're doing, literally.

Also today, I've seen you mock and ridicule someone for proposing a change to the game because what he proposed "isn't how the game works" and how unbelievable you find it that people "don't understand that". I thought I should mention that before you pretend that you need or have any actual reasons for opposing any proposed change to the game.

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

44 minutes ago, Zimzala said:

My point is no matter WHAT is changed, no matter HOW, it's changed, the player base will go to war over it, and claim they are not, in fact, a school of piranha ready to turn on themselves.

A toggle to remove the whimsical additions the developers choose to add is direct play to dictate the design, from my POV, based on disliking the whimsy that has been added.

While the whole 'cannot see the screen bug' on clients is a real issue, the rest of things I read are just players arguing over their precious being violated with whimsy.

Adding a toggle to remove the whimsy is just adding a toggle to allow people to remain intolerant of developer design choices, IMO. 😁

Do I have a 'problem' with a toggle for things? Nope.

Do I think the developers should bow to such pressure to remove whimsy? Nope.

I agree. And for some, it's not even about not being able to see, as people have admitted they just don't want "anime wings" because "that's not what warframes about" claiming the wings are basically for some new generation of players. 

They're basically doing some warframe boomer stuff "back in my day, we wouldn't have worn those stupid wings!"

 

[Zimzala]

6 minutes ago, Krankbert said:

Those were all direct quotes from comments you made recently, including the one dismissing others' opinions entirely as mere programming by Youtubers. There is no difference between that and what you're doing because that is what you're doing, literally.

Nope.

I am calling the POVs behind the opinions like I see them, just as you are welcome to call the POVs as you see them in me.

The opinions others hold are as valid in the 'opinion marketplace' as my opinions, even if and I am blunt caustic about where I think those opinions come from. - mine come from being an extremely opinionated, blunt, melt-down loving, rude, and cranky old geek that has spent years hearing the same circular arguments about these things in games from a new round of arm-chair developers, year after year, game after game, who won't stop posting on forums even if it might be the better choice.

I know exactly who I am and I am not ashamed of it, never have been.

Also, as you point out, I go after the opinions and what attitudes and outlooks drive them. If we are not here to discuss the opinions, then what? People think that by addressing thier motives for opinions I cross some line - I don't care - I treat all the people in RL the same way, from bosses to my spouse.

By pointing out the DNA of where I think, IMO, another's opinion comes from, does not invalidate that opinion, it is simply an exercise in determining why a person holds that opinion, why the hold, it, where they got the data for it, etc.

"Why?" is my favorite question.

[Zimzala]

25 minutes ago, Sace said:

Damn, who is having a meltdown now? 😮

Imagine me explaining how developers should not bow to people complaining how bad the first iteration of Gauss is while never ever playing Gauss myself because I like Nezha more.

"Guys, I don't care how bad Gauss is, IT'S DESIGN CHOICE!"

You are here now explaining me how my perception is flawed and that it is no big deal while never being in the same position after all because you don't have foreign wings in your face in most missions. 

I can see how you just argue against a simple toggle out of spite, I just think that it's irrational.

I think if the developers want to put in that toggle to please customers, that's just fine. I have no issue at all with a toggle.

I also think asking for a toggle to negate the whimsy out of the game the developers put in the game is silly. I think it comes from a place of "get that whimsy out of my edgy-edge-lord looking game." I don't need anyone to agree with that opinion, I can still have that opinion all by myself. Solo, as it were. 😁

I have been referring here to aesthetic design choices, but to your Gauss point, I feel the same way, why should anyone have a toggle to remove Gauss from the game just because they don't like it? 😉

But really, while I love a good meltdown, how is falling over laughing at someone trying to invalidate my opinion because I solo, a meltdown?

I just thought that was about the funniest thing I have read in a long while.

[Hypernaut1]

There's probably a reason why developers don't put toggles for everything. 

[SneakyErvin]

6 minutes ago, Zimzala said:

Also, as you point out, I go after the opinions and what attitudes and outlooks drive them. If we are not here to discuss the opinions, then what? People think that by addressing thier motives for opinions I cross some line - I don't care - I treat all the people in RL the same way, from bosses to my spouse.

By pointing out the DNA of where I think, IMO, another's opinion comes from, does not invalidate that opinion, it is simply an exercise in determining why a person holds that opinion, why the hold, it, where they got the data for it, etc.

"Why?" is my favorite question.

So those with a valid reason behind wanting a certain QoL change should be punished because a few others may have a silly reason for that same QoL idea?

Like in this case of the wings. Several simply want to toggle it off since they are intrusive to gameplay while others want it simply so they dont have to see "animu wengz reee!". The valid concern of the intrusive issues far outweighs the "anime" or "theme" haters.

[Krankbert]

vor 16 Minuten schrieb Zimzala:

The opinions others hold are as valid in the 'opinion marketplace' as my opinions, even if and I am blunt caustic about where I think those opinions come from. - mine come from being an extremely opinionated, blunt, melt-down loving, rude, and cranky old geek that has spent years hearing the same circular arguments about these things in games from a new round of arm-chair developers, year after year, game after game, who won't stop posting on forums even if it might be the better choice.

Like I said, today, I've seen you mock and ridicule someone for proposing a change to the game because what he proposed "isn't how the game works". You can hardly pretend that you're respecting the opinions of others when all you do is attack them for voicing them, call them stupid and "programmed" for having them, and blindly lash out at any and all proposals to change the game in any manner because what's proposed isn't what the game is already like.

Personally, I think there's only one thing anyone needs to know about you:  

vor 8 Minuten schrieb Zimzala:

I think if the developers want to put in that toggle to please customers, that's just fine.

The fact that your entire reason for opposing this change and rabidly attacking and lashing out at anyone who is in favor of it is that the developers haven't yet implemented it. 

[(PSN)Elvenbane]

39 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

I would honestly support a toggle for everything possible when it comes to cosmetics. Some people prefer a classic look and not having others being able to interfear with that would be great. It would have no impact on the player tooting their new shiny skin since they'd still see it all the same on their frame, but it would be a great thing for everyone else in the group.

Just an option each for the different cosmetic options.

Attachments for other players: On/off

Syandana On/off

Ephemera On/off

Show classic skin On/off

Show classic colors On/off

etc.

Fashion frame is very important for this game, not seeing other frames how their operator sees them feels wrong...

Would have loved an energy color override though. ;)

5 minutes ago, Hypernaut1 said:

There's probably a reason why developers don't put toggles for everything. 

There's localization, having to add additional checks in the event loop, testing, having to maintain feature, making UI un-wield;y, etc. Options are bad. :)

 

[JackHargreav]

7 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

So those with a valid reason behind wanting a certain QoL change should be punished because a few others may have a silly reason for that same QoL idea?

Like in this case of the wings. Several simply want to toggle it off since they are intrusive to gameplay while others want it simply so they dont have to see "animu wengz reee!". The valid concern of the intrusive issues far outweighs the "anime" or "theme" haters.

Turning off cosmetics is counter intuitive at best.

Cosmetics are there to make money. If the players just turn off cosmetics and don't see the cosmetics then they won't feel like they're missing out. 

Sounds scummy? Well it's a f2p game that has to use some method to get ppl pay.

[SneakyErvin]

4 minutes ago, (PSN)Elvenbane said:

Fashion frame is very important for this game, not seeing other frames how their operator sees them feels wrong...

Would have loved an energy color override though. ;)

I only see fashionframe as important to me regarding my frame, I really couldnt care less what others look like, and barely every stop to look at others. 

[(PSN)Elvenbane]

1 minute ago, SneakyErvin said:

I only see fashionframe as important to me regarding my frame, I really couldnt care less what others look like, and barely every stop to look at others. 

Really? That's what I enjoy most about playing with others, seeing their cool or hideous creations is part of the fun.

[SneakyErvin]

3 minutes ago, JackHargreav said:

Turning off cosmetics is counter intuitive at best.

Cosmetics are there to make money. If the players just turn off cosmetics and don't see the cosmetics then they won't feel like they're missing out. 

Sounds scummy? Well it's a f2p game that has to use some method to get ppl pay.

I doubt anyone would go buy a Nyx skin because they ended up with a fabulous Nyx in their group if they themselves never touch the frame. Just as I dont think anyone would go "no point buying that skin for my fav frame since others can just ignore to see it, so I'll just sit here and look plain all the same".

[Sace]

vor 22 Minuten schrieb Zimzala:

I think if the developers want to put in that toggle to please customers, that's just fine. I have no issue at all with a toggle.

I also think asking for a toggle to negate the whimsy out of the game the developers put in the game is silly. I think it comes from a place of "get that whimsy out of my edgy-edge-lord looking game." I don't need anyone to agree with that opinion, I can still have that opinion all by myself. Solo, as it were. 😁

I have been referring here to aesthetic design choices, but to your Gauss point, I feel the same way, why should anyone have a toggle to remove Gauss from the game just because they don't like it? 😉

But really, while I love a good meltdown, how is falling over laughing at someone trying to invalidate my opinion because I solo, a meltdown?

I just thought that was about the funniest thing I have read in a long while.

The point of my Gauss analogy was that nobody is qualified to devalue other opinions if they are not even remotely affected by the issue at hand.

We recently (nov 2020) got a toggle to reduce visual noise of other players, a toggle for seasonal content just plays further into this.

Aforementioned toggle should, by your reasoning, also not exist because it obviously goes against the developers original design choice and yet, here it is.

 

vor 10 Minuten schrieb JackHargreav:

Turning off cosmetics is counter intuitive at best.

Cosmetics are there to make money. If the players just turn off cosmetics and don't see the cosmetics then they won't feel like they're missing out. 

Sounds scummy? Well it's a f2p game that has to use some method to get ppl pay.

Yeah, that's true. The seasonal stuff is free in the game, though. At least a toggle for that should be no problem.

[Krankbert]

vor 2 Minuten schrieb SneakyErvin:

I doubt anyone would go buy a Nyx skin because they ended up with a fabulous Nyx in their group if they themselves never touch the frame.

Drop the "if"-part. There is no reason for it to be there. Maybe you'll find more value in the argument if you don't deliberately distort it.

[SneakyErvin]

6 minutes ago, (PSN)Elvenbane said:

Really? That's what I enjoy most about playing with others, seeing their cool or hideous creations is part of the fun.

I tend to either be in the middle of killing something or standing at the extract, and if I'm at extract I tend to also be in the kitchen or toilet doing other things.

edit: Just to be clear, I'm not literally in the toilet. 😛

[Krankbert]

vor 1 Minute schrieb SneakyErvin:

and if I'm at extract I tend to also be in the kitchen or toilet doing other things.

I should bookmark this for use in the the next "why can't we kick people from the group" thread.