The Eros Wings Ephemera and the design of Warframe

[FastestKnightPrime]

There are so many problems with this game and here we are, debating about wings and arguing about art direction in a game that makes things up as they go along. 

Just let people enjoy things. The community loves them. I think they are AMAZING.

If you don't, just ignore them. Want a toggle? Fine, but keep them in the game, please.

[saifsaif45]

honestly

if they add a toggle, people will complain

if they don't add a toggle, people will complain

if they remove the wings, people will complain

if they make the wings temporary, people will complain

if they add the wings, people will complain

there is no solution to this that will satisfy the whole community

[PublikDomain]

5 minutes ago, saifsaif45 said:

honestly

if they add a toggle, people will complain

if they don't add a toggle, people will complain

if they remove the wings, people will complain

if they make the wings temporary, people will complain

if they add the wings, people will complain

there is no solution to this that will satisfy the whole community

If they add the toggle they don't have to remove the wings or make them temporary, and the people who would complain about them being added wouldn't have to complain any more because they could just turn them off. Adding a toggle satisfies all of the groups in your list except for the few narcissists in the first category who think that other people should be forced to look at them. And why should any of us defer to people with that kind of thinking?

[Sace]

vor 3 Stunden schrieb FastestKnightPrime:

If you don't, just ignore them. Want a toggle? Fine, but keep them in the game, please.

 

vor 31 Minuten schrieb PublikDomain:

If they add the toggle they don't have to remove the wings or make them temporary, and the people who would complain about them being added wouldn't have to complain any more because they could just turn them off. Adding a toggle satisfies all of the groups in your list except for the few narcissists in the first category who think that other people should be forced to look at them. And why should any of us defer to people with that kind of thinking?

 

Exactly my point. DE can add more and more permanent ridiculous and 'non-canon' stuff to the game for all I care. Just make a toggle and everyone except for the trolls will be happy.

[_R_o_g_u_e_]

33 minutes ago, PublikDomain said:

If they add the toggle they don't have to remove the wings or make them temporary, and the people who would complain about them being added wouldn't have to complain any more because they could just turn them off. Adding a toggle satisfies all of the groups in your list except for the few narcissists in the first category who think that other people should be forced to look at them. And why should any of us defer to people with that kind of thinking?

I think is much more narcissistic to demand to have control over other people’s appearance. If there’s a toggle, you will be able to alter how you see other people, how they chose to portray their frames. That’s incredibly more narcissistic than appreciating something that DE added.

[saifsaif45]

good point then

[SneakyErvin]

19 hours ago, Zimzala said:

While I can agree with your outlook that games like this can have a lot of visual clutter in hubs, and many games make changes to improve performance though rendering fewer things, I do not see any of it as 'punishment', that sounds like OTT 'this change is a slap in the face...' kind of thing to me.

The game is not changed by the community, and IME just with this topic, the community happily eats itself over virtually anything at the drop of a hat, so the way gamers act at scale won't change based on anything DE does with WF.

Totally agree from the perspective of actually being able to kill pixels, if the wings interfere, fix that, or giving people seizures, etc., fix that.

But the idea that in the public areas I can just turn off the design choices of the other players because I am being 'punished' by seeing them is just a very controlling/OCD/overbearing opinion/outlook from a human, not a reason, IMO, to change the code.

If the portion of the player base that wants that change is enough DE thinks there is ROI, great, DE will do as they will, but IMO, the outlook still not something I see as a positive thing, because from my POV, it's enabling stagnation and suppressing creativity. Just my POV.

You miss the point. I'm not saying the players get punished for not being able to turn of the effect as it is now or if DE simply says no later on. I'm saying the idea aswell as the players would get punished if the reasoning for not implementing a toggle would be the one given by you, simply that part of those that want a toggle want it for silly reasons so the idea should be written off based on that, leaving those that dont share the silly reasons to suffer, or be punished based on the actions or thoughts of others.

If DE were to say "no, we dont want that since it goes against our design philosophy" I wouldnt care, it is their game. But if they'd say "No, we dont want that because parts of the community just want it in order to remove animations that arent appealing to them" I would question their judgement. Since there would probably be a larger part of those that want such a toggle simply in order to remove actually intrusive animations.

[fo3nixz]

toggle then.

personally i dont care about the pink rhino with khora deluxe animation  + new ephemera < youchoice , your looks/fashion..

[Zimzala]

19 hours ago, Krankbert said:

It's not trying to suppress the creative output because anyone can see that it obviously wouldn't suppress the creative output. It wouldn't affect DE artists and designers at all.

Now please explain why you think it would. Why would it "suppress the creative output of DE artists and designers" to not make random people look at it who don't want to. Is Netflix suppressing the creative output of Adam Sandler by not making me watch The Ridiculous 6 before allowing me to watch something else? Is the government of Mexico suppressing the creative output of DE artists and designers by not making Warframe accounts mandatory for all citizens? Is the Pope suppressing the creative output of DE artists and designers by not showing Warframe concept art during this year's Easter mass? I think we're on to a worldwide conspiracy to suppress the creative output of DE here.

Do you not feel feelings?

Are you a Vulcan?

Would you not find having the developers of the game you make art for add a toggle to remove that art because of a few players that hate whimsy and disagree with your art direction?

Where did governments enter into this?

Are you not aware artists for the company have emotional outlooks on their creative effort just like the gamers here frothing at the mouth over DE 'ruining' their art style?

How is this so hard to see?

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

I bought the wings and put em on a pink Harrow. I can still see when I shoot as well.

[Zimzala]

1 hour ago, SneakyErvin said:

You miss the point. I'm not saying the players get punished for not being able to turn of the effect as it is now or if DE simply says no later on. I'm saying the idea aswell as the players would get punished if the reasoning for not implementing a toggle would be the one given by you, simply that part of those that want a toggle want it for silly reasons so the idea should be written off based on that, leaving those that dont share the silly reasons to suffer, or be punished based on the actions or thoughts of others.

If DE were to say "no, we dont want that since it goes against our design philosophy" I wouldnt care, it is their game. But if they'd say "No, we dont want that because parts of the community just want it in order to remove animations that arent appealing to them" I would question their judgement. Since there would probably be a larger part of those that want such a toggle simply in order to remove actually intrusive animations.

While I agree making these decisions on the ranting of forum goers like me are not the best sources of data, no matter what they do, not matter the reason, the idea of a game maker changing a game, or not, and that being 'punishment' or players would be 'suffering' is simply to OTT for me.

Changes in a video game do not punish players or make them suffer. IMO, that's players playing the part of the martyr in the story.

[Sace]

vor 8 Minuten schrieb Zimzala:

Do you not feel feelings?

Are you a Vulcan?

Would you not find having the developers of the game you make art for add a toggle to remove that art because of a few players that hate whimsy and disagree with your art direction?

Where did governments enter into this?

Are you not aware artists for the company have emotional outlooks on their creative effort just like the gamers here frothing at the mouth over DE 'ruining' their art style?

How is this so hard to see?

So pink Rhinos with stardust emitting feathered wings and pumpkin heads killing stuff with candy canes is the artists preferred vision of Warframe? Can I get a source on that? All of the default looks that came from said artists as well do look nothing like that, after all.

  

vor 4 Minuten schrieb Zimzala:

Changes in a video game do not punish players or make them suffer. IMO, that's players playing the part of the martyr in the story.

Then there shouldn't be a problem in changing a toggle for seasonal stuff into warframe, is there?

Nobody gets hurt that way.

[Zimzala]

2 minutes ago, Sace said:

So pink Rhinos with stardust emitting feathered wings and pumpkin heads killing stuff with candy canes is the artists preferred vision of Warframe? Can I get a source on that? All of the default looks that came from said artists as well do look nothing like that, after all.

  

Then there shouldn't be a problem in changing a toggle for seasonal stuff into warframe, is there?

Nobody gets hurt that way.

If WF design allows it, then it's part of the design, how is that hard? Defaults change and evolve, just like the rest of the game, nothing is written in stone except in the minds of those that cannot grow and change or refuse to do so.

The only problem IMO with the toggle provided is the POV from which the desire comes. If it's a performance, mechanical, or medical type of thing, that's one thing, but the desire here is for the players to be allowed to 'concern troll' the developers into preventing the art style from evolving, IMO, because of their close minded POV that WF style is a rigid thing they cannot handle changing.

[Sace]

vor 2 Minuten schrieb Zimzala:

If WF design allows it, then it's part of the design, how is that hard? Defaults change and evolve, just like the rest of the game, nothing is written in stone except in the minds of those that cannot grow and change or refuse to do so.

The only problem IMO with the toggle provided is the POV from which the desire comes. If it's a performance, mechanical, or medical type of thing, that's one thing, but the desire here is for the players to be allowed to 'concern troll' the developers into preventing the art style from evolving, IMO, because of their close minded POV that WF style is a rigid thing they cannot handle changing.

So people asking for a simple toggle because they favor aesthetics and setting to be somewhat consistent along the artistic choice (You cannot deny that seasonal stuff is not consistent to the setting) being made over the years are somehow concern trolling while people arguing against it because "THINK OF THE POOR ARTISTS" are not the actual concern trolls? OK.

[Zimzala]

1 minute ago, Sace said:

So people asking for a simple toggle because they favor aesthetics and setting to be somewhat consistent along the artistic choice (You cannot deny that seasonal stuff is not consistent to the setting) being made over the years are somehow concern trolling while people arguing against it because "THINK OF THE POOR ARTISTS" are not the actual concern trolls? OK.

Bold mine.

Yes I can. Void magic and the distant memories of the Tenno can explain the genesis for the designs, for example, with just a cursory effort of thought.

All it takes is a little creativity, rather than a direct desire to stifle the imagination.

The forum posters here rag on the developers all the time, including the artists now it seems, and for trying to give the artists some support from my POV, we get the hyperbole of 'punishment', and "think of the" crap.

If you can stand up and yell that you don't want to see the art, I can stand up and yell that I do not agree, that's how this works.

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

10 minutes ago, Sace said:

So people asking for a simple toggle because they favor aesthetics and setting to be somewhat consistent along the artistic choice (You cannot deny that seasonal stuff is not consistent to the setting) being made over the years are somehow concern trolling while people arguing against it because "THINK OF THE POOR ARTISTS" are not the actual concern trolls? OK.

If you were actually concerned people would have been asking to not look at x and y awhile ago, but they weren't. They just decided that it needed to bother them now because they don't like it.

As someone else said, it's not even for some medical reason or performance reason like the Bramma explosives. It's no secret this forum is a negative echo chamber full of people that want the game to regress, and even die rather than grow, because it's not personally what they want anymore. 

 

[Sace]

vor 25 Minuten schrieb Zimzala:

Yes I can. Void magic and the distant memories of the Tenno can explain the genesis for the designs, for example, with just a cursory effort of thought.

If you can stand up and yell that you don't want to see the art, I can stand up and yell that I do not agree, that's how this works.

🤣

Sure you can. You can also stand up and proclaim that you disagree without even trying Gauss once because 'THINK OF THE DEVS' after multiple people stated how bad his first iteration was. It just makes you look like a #&#036;&amp;(%. That's how this works.

  

vor 12 Minuten schrieb (PSN)Madurai-Prime:

If you were actually concerned people would have been asking to not look at x and y awhile ago, but they weren't. They just decided that it needed to bother them now because they don't like it.

As someone else said, it's not even for some medical reason or performance reason like the Bramma explosives. It's no secret this forum is a negative echo chamber full of people that want the game to regress, and even die rather than grow, because it's not personally what they want anymore. 

 

It was never that much of an issue because nobody actually wore them and many of them were seasonal-only like the 'stache and the pumpkin head. The wings are a whole different level of nuisance.

The second paragraph I can give right back at you. Instead of supporting more diverse options certain people chose to fire against it because "ARTISTIC VISION" and "OK BOOMER"  Not to mention all the other ad hominems and unwarranted passive-aggressiveness. You are part of the problem that is the negativity in the forums. :)

[PublikDomain]

9 hours ago, _R_o_g_u_e_ said:

I think is much more narcissistic to demand to have control over other people’s appearance. If there’s a toggle, you will be able to alter how you see other people, how they chose to portray their frames. That’s incredibly more narcissistic than appreciating something that DE added.

Quote

selfishness, involving a sense of entitlement, a lack of empathy, and a need for admiration, as characterizing a personality type.

I dunno, I'd think the people who won't consider others feelings and prioritize their own need to have others look at them are pretty spot on for the definition.

[PublikDomain]

10 minutes ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

If you were actually concerned people would have been asking to not look at x and y awhile ago, but they weren't.

I've been asking for this in one form or another since at least 2017 lol.

Spoiler

https://gfycat.com/biodegradablequerulousasianlion

Check the date.

[_R_o_g_u_e_]

35 minutes ago, PublikDomain said:

I dunno, I'd think the people who won't consider others feelings and prioritize their own need to have others look at them are pretty spot on for the definition.

This comes down to a fundamental misunderstanding of expressing yourself, or how one chooses to portray themselves. Self expression isn’t inherently vanity or for the point of “admiration.”

Vanity is a character flaw, and it’s wrong to prescribe that to people innately. If people want to depict their frames in a certain way, that’s entirely up to them. It’s for themselves, for you to alter how they appear, to even want to alter how they appear, is a form of extending your will over someone else.

A person is allowed to use any cosmetic in the game to express themselves or decorate their frames however they choose. That doesn’t imply vanity or a desire for admiration. That ability is part of what makes warframe so appealing.

Demanding tools to alter how other people appear however, runs in complete opposition to that ability. People wanting to appear a certain way doesn’t imply they want your admiration, simply that that’s how they want to be perceived.

Demanding the ability to change how someone is perceived, is honestly pretty questionable IMO.

DE has no incentive to hamstring their own cosmetic system.

I believe wanting to change how other people appear is a much truer embodiment of “selfishness, a sense of entitlement and a lack of empathy.”

I also believe that to be much more objective than prescribing “the need for admiration” to “wanting to express yourself.”

[SneakyErvin]

1 hour ago, Zimzala said:

While I agree making these decisions on the ranting of forum goers like me are not the best sources of data, no matter what they do, not matter the reason, the idea of a game maker changing a game, or not, and that being 'punishment' or players would be 'suffering' is simply to OTT for me.

Changes in a video game do not punish players or make them suffer. IMO, that's players playing the part of the martyr in the story.

It does punish or make them suffer if the decision regarding making the change or not is based on the "silly opinion" crowd while ignoring the sensible opinions. That doesnt make those with sensible opinions martyrs, since they dont share the cause with the "silly" part. They are just caught in the crossfire. I agree though that "it doesnt fit the theme!" shouldnt be a reason for a toggle, but if those players make up only 10% of the people that want a toggle, it would be straight up silly to not impliment it based on those 10%, since 90% of the reasons for the idea are sensible and simple QoL wishes. And if the numbers were the opposite one could question if there is an actual issue in the first place that would need a toggle since only 10% of those wanting it seem to think so.

In the end though, a toggle would harm no one, no matter what that toggle is used for, since it will just effect the player using the toggle and not the rest of the group. The rest of the group would be 100% unaware if a player is using a toggle or not, it would have no impact on gameplay in any negative way. 

Or should I sit here and be sad because there is a chance someone in my group doesnt hear my Octavia song or see the elemental weapon effects I've got rocking on my weapon?

[Snake551]

People here complainin whenever or not to see wings

Me here struggling with the fact that I spend several hours fashion framing my saryn around the wings(looks sick btw)

but I cant see nothing whilst playing her because the bloody wings take up half the screen so casting spores is a paint even with fov set to 90 :D

I just want an option to make the wings not so visible in missions if anything ^^

 

Quick edit,

I always found warframe to be a game that really lets you express yourself and  your ideas through fashion-frame, limiting people to a theme breaks that creativity. So what if people want wings or bunny ears. Play for yourself and do it your way the more options you get the better.

[Sace]

vor 4 Minuten schrieb Snake551:

People here complainin whenever or not to see wings

Me here struggling with the fact that I spend several hours fashion framing my saryn around the wings(looks sick btw)

but I cant see nothing whilst playing her because the bloody wings take up half the screen so casting spores is a paint even with fov set to 90 :D

I just want an option to make the wings not so visible in missions if anything ^^

I am sure this will be fixed pretty soon. We are asking for general toggles disabling seasonal cosmetics altogether :D

[PublikDomain]

On 2021-02-15 at 10:10 AM, _R_o_g_u_e_ said:

Demanding the ability to change how someone is perceived, is honestly pretty questionable IMO.

Demanding that people not be given the ability to improve their experience for the sake of your own vanity is also pretty questionable. I'd say it's much, much more. If someone does not want to view your particular form of self expression because they feel that it detracts from their experience, who are you to say that they cannot be allowed to look away and play in peace? Giving players the choice to opt out of viewing the most outlandish cosmetics gives players the ability to do that. Saying "no you have to look at me even if you don't like what you see" is selfish. It's like saying "you can't ask for ear plugs, me shouting in your ears is my self-expression!"

On 2021-02-15 at 10:10 AM, _R_o_g_u_e_ said:

DE has no incentive to hamstring their own cosmetic system.

Not exactly. Adding a toggle and making the rest of the cosmetics permanent would improve player experience across the board for everyone (except the aforementioned narcissists) so even if nothing else they gain a ton of good will from the playerbase for improving the game. DE also gains the freedom to create and sell more of these types of cosmetics without impacting the default user experience or the experience of players who have opted out. I know people who would pay money, myself included, for permanent bunny ears. But because I'm not a narcissist I know that many players do not feel the same way. An option to hide these cosmetics so other players don't have to be negatively affected by my self expression is only fair.

[Krankbert]

Am 15.2.2021 um 18:10 schrieb _R_o_g_u_e_:

A person is allowed to use any cosmetic in the game to express themselves or decorate their frames however they choose. That doesn’t imply vanity or a desire for admiration.

Demanding that other people look at how you decorated your Warframe doesn't imply vanity? Is that something you honestly think or something you say because your argument requires it?