What do you think about the rushing and trigger happy style?

[Snake551]

On 2021-02-14 at 6:28 PM, Travis05 said:

I can come across as negative or whining or toxic. But im tired of the kind of playstyle the game is trying to promote lately. Everyone have a different tastes. So if you like it, nothing wrong with that. Just want to tell my experience, and then you can come with your own conclusions.

I usually play public always, and im tired of trying to compete with my team for kills. AOE weapons, nuke warframes...The map is clean in seconds, and im there with a hitscan weapon, looking like an idiot. I like sniper and precision, and frames that reward skill. However, with this game is almost impossible to use more than two braincells in most cases. Might as well just stay AFK and see my team clean the mission. 

You can say, play solo. But that is not the issue. That solution actually solves nothing, this is a mmorpg. The teamplay should feel good, not a borefest.

On the other hand, people hate anything that isnt extermination. My team today let me clear two of the three vaults in a spy sortie because they were too scared to fail. I literally waited 10 minutes in the third vault door until someone finally decided to step in.

This is what happens when you make people used to turn off their brains. 

I see people hate spy. If the developers decide to erase that, or focus only on extermination and forget everything about defense or the rest of the modes...thats the day im out of here. Idk how they will change things in the future, it seems they are mostly focused on railjack now. But the base game needs a good touch in my opinion. Less innovation and more rework.

 

 

 

Do spies solo, people don't want to trigger because they often fail and then some rage toxic allies blame them for it.

Cant blame someone to want to be carried since they cant do it on their own.

As for not being able to get to enemies be happy. If your allies kill the enemies u earn more experience for your weapons. They do the work u get the grofit.

Only people who compete for kills are the ones who look at the leaderboards, if you care about it you look at it and u try to do it better than others if you dont just relax.

Play the game how you want to play it but don't expect others to play how you want them to.

[(PSN)thegarada]

On 2021-02-14 at 1:28 PM, Travis05 said:

I can come across as negative or whining or toxic. But im tired of the kind of playstyle the game is trying to promote lately. Everyone have a different tastes. So if you like it, nothing wrong with that. Just want to tell my experience, and then you can come with your own conclusions.

I usually play public always, and im tired of trying to compete with my team for kills. AOE weapons, nuke warframes...The map is clean in seconds, and im there with a hitscan weapon, looking like an idiot. I like sniper and precision, and frames that reward skill. However, with this game is almost impossible to use more than two braincells in most cases. Might as well just stay AFK and see my team clean the mission. 

You can say, play solo. But that is not the issue. That solution actually solves nothing, this is a mmorpg. The teamplay should feel good, not a borefest.

On the other hand, people hate anything that isnt extermination. My team today let me clear two of the three vaults in a spy sortie because they were too scared to fail. I literally waited 10 minutes in the third vault door until someone finally decided to step in.

This is what happens when you make people used to turn off their brains. 

I see people hate spy. If the developers decide to erase that, or focus only on extermination and forget everything about defense or the rest of the modes...thats the day im out of here. Idk how they will change things in the future, it seems they are mostly focused on railjack now. But the base game needs a good touch in my opinion. Less innovation and more rework.

 

 

 

After a while you kinda understand that the best way to farm anything below level 100 is melee + movement speed for missions with movement. Nuke for anything stationary. There is no place for anything else. 

Efficiency rules. If you run a sniper or a hit scan weapons, feel free. But I am running at 150 speed turning everything in my pass to dust. Why spend 5 minutes in a mission that can be finished in 3?

[kapn655321]

16 minutes ago, (PSN)thegarada said:

...There is no place for anything else. ...

....Why spend 5 minutes in a mission that can be finished in 3?

Yeah, that's the thing. Gonna have to assume you speed ran the thread and skipped all the bits where this is discussed at length, but, no matter..

There being no place for anything else is a problem when players don't want to do just that in a game that has elaborate maps, stealth mechanics, and AI patrols to stalk.

Think of the Hitman series.. or thief.. or any number of stealth titles, and how they have an audience of players. Now consider a game about being a space ninja, that has much of the mechanics that would comprise these other kinds of titles, has the mechanics from these games, and dis-incentivizes them arbitrarily.

So if you start this game thinking, "there are so many places to hide and snipe, or stealth from, and so many ways it could work..." but the game says, "yeah, but don't ever do that because loot," you might be like... "yeah, but... why is it like that? That would have been fun.. and very do-able? Why throw that away? I'd rather be doing that right now."

[_R_o_g_u_e_]

14 minutes ago, kapn655321 said:

Yeah, that's the thing. Gonna have to assume you speed ran the thread and skipped all the bits where this is discussed at length, but, no matter..

There being no place for anything else is a problem when players don't want to do just that in a game that has elaborate maps, stealth mechanics, and AI patrols to stalk.

Think of the Hitman series.. or thief.. or any number of stealth titles, and how they have an audience of players. Now consider a game about being a space ninja, that has much of the mechanics that would comprise these other kinds of titles, has the mechanics from these games, and dis-incentivizes them arbitrarily.

So if you start this game thinking, "there are so many places to hide and snipe, or stealth from, and so many ways it could work..." but the game says, "yeah, but don't ever do that because loot," you might be like... "yeah, but... why is it like that? That would have been fun.. and very do-able? Why throw that away? I'd rather be doing that right now."

Okay what? Thief and hit man are triple A games with their entire budgets built around stealth mechanics. They were designed that way from the ground up, with their engines being optimised for it.

Warframe has vision cones. You’re asking for the game to be something it’s absolutely not, and would cost billions of dollars for it to become. Warframe doesn’t need to compete with THIEF of all games, Warframe is unique.

The last thing Warframe needs to do is pillage ideas from other games, because it’s the fact that it’s unique that gives it an identity.

Also, please recall that the latest Thief game was received poorly by;

Thief fans

Critics

The general public 

So warframe is rationally disincentivized from becoming anything like it.

[kapn655321]

On 2021-02-15 at 10:49 PM, _R_o_g_u_e_ said:

Okay what? Thief and hit man are triple A games with their entire budgets built around stealth mechanics. They were designed that way from the ground up, with their engines being optimised for it.

Warframe has vision cones. You’re asking for the game to be something it’s absolutely not, and would cost billions of dollars for it to become. Warframe doesn’t need to compete with THIEF of all games, Warframe is unique.

The last thing Warframe needs to do is pillage ideas from other games, because it’s the fact that it’s unique that gives it an identity.

Also, please recall that the latest Thief game was received poorly by;

Thief fans

Critics

The general public 

So warframe is rationally disincentivized from becoming anything like it.

This is not what I meant.

Simple question: Is there an appetite for these mechanics?

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

1 hour ago, kapn655321 said:

This is not what I meant.

Simple question: Is there an appetite for these mechanics?

Not really. Most players are 1 dimensional meta users that always use this "efficiency" excuse.

You've probably seen them on the forums saying things like:

"Why use x when y exists/is more efficient?"

"X frame can't even nuke, what's the point of using it/its outdated and not worth using"

"Why use single target when I can use aoe? Aiming isn't efficient"

Anything that isn't Saryn or a Bramma is worthless to some of these people. Most of them are just bad players that need the crutch. 

[Krankbert]

vor einer Stunde schrieb kapn655321:

This is not what I meant.

Simple question: Is there an appetite for these mechanics?

Is there an audience for stealth games? Yes.

Are stealth sequences in games that aren’t designed as stealth games from the ground up universally panned? Also yes.

[kapn655321]

Just now, Krankbert said:

games that aren’t designed as stealth games

...and what would a game designed as stealth, do?

[Krankbert]

Gerade eben schrieb kapn655321:

...and what would a game designed as stealth, do?

For example, you’d not design the entire thing as a fast-paced looter shooter.

[kapn655321]

Just now, Krankbert said:

entire thing

Ah...

So you're telling me: Stealth kills, spy missions, AI alert levels, alarms, gun audibility, invisibility, patrols, maze like map design, and security cameras are all designed specifically for fast paced gameplay?

[Krankbert]

vor 21 Minuten schrieb kapn655321:

Ah...

So you're telling me: Stealth kills, spy missions, AI alert levels, alarms, gun audibility, invisibility, patrols, maze like map design, and security cameras are all designed specifically for fast paced gameplay?

Name one stealth game were the player character is effectively permanently invisible like the stealth Warframes all are.

Permanently invisible characters with silenced rocket launchers aren’t what you put in a stealth game, it’s what you put in a looter shooter to get more varied defense concepts.

[kapn655321]

17 minutes ago, Krankbert said:

Name one stealth game were the player character is effectively permanently invisible like the stealth Warframes all are.

I made a darn good point about stealth mechanics in warframe though, didn't I? ;)

Because the game was in fact designed around stealth.

History time if you're interested:
During the game's development, the AI and energy economy was too punishing to invis the whole time, because they were still figuring things out.. and the player base just turned to cheesing things. The devs had to lean into that to be able to keep the game afloat, and it got away from them.

So, definitively, NO this game was not designed to be just a fast paced looter shooter. It was also that, and it is also stealth.

By the time you got to it, the meta guided design, because games cost money to develop. It was not DE that asked for it to be mindless loot plow.. it was newer folks like yourself. Now you're using the fact that they catered to you, to deny the ability to cater to anything but. Don't gaslight me fam, I know what I'm talking about.

Back in 2014, failing a spy mission turned it into exterminate.. and the AI had an uncanny hive mind, because it was all new, and nothing was nuanced enough yet.

If it was designed to be fast paced from the ground up... then why did it have a stamina meter, stealth kills, and alert levels from it's very inception? It wouldn't have. You are mistaken, but I can understand from your point of reference why you reached that conclusion.

They changed spy to make it more clear that you had to embrace stealth mechanics, (See the mastery rank tests that REQUIRE stealth mechanics) but by the time the team had a grip on AI, it was too late, and the best way to keep things funded was leaning into faster looter shooter mechanics.

WHAT THIS THREAD IS ABOUT is how the core mechanics of the game got swept away... and beneath the years of power creep and mindless grinding, there is a foundation that is STEALTH BASED, and players are Desiring This.

 

[Krankbert]

Permanently invisible character with a silenced rocket launcher.

[vegetosayajin]

On 2021-02-14 at 8:28 PM, Travis05 said:

I usually play public always, and im tired of trying to compete with my team for kills. AOE weapons, nuke warframes...The map is clean in seconds, and im there with a hitscan weapon, looking like an idiot. I like sniper and precision, and frames that reward skill. However, with this game is almost impossible to use more than two braincells in most cases. Might as well just stay AFK and see my team clean the mission. 

The problem is not that the people want that, most of the game-modes are tailored to mass murder a.s.a.p. : defence - the waves run quicker the more mobs you kill faster/the target gets less or no damage
survival: more mobs you kill faster, more life support
disruption: almost the same kill to get keys or to get the mobs off your back
excavation: kill mobs to protect the excavator and get capsules
bounties: most of them kill mobs faster and more
exterminate: kill kill kill 
so/eso: kill more faster
index: kill for money
...
There are a few mods that you don't need to kill at all or little but ...the most popular modes are tailored to killing more and fast/efficient.
There is no wonder that people go for the most efficient way.

If you want to play with snipers, do it(I do it from time to time because I like snipers too)! No one will stop you and you don't have to compete for kills or damage or anything. To each his own. Just have fun.
I pretty much play only with randoms but I treat it as a single player game and enjoy it.

[kapn655321]

3 minutes ago, Krankbert said:

Permanently invisible character with a silenced rocket launcher.

Was not part of the original game design, is optional, and is not what the players in this thread, defying that trend, are asking for.

Do you get that?

[Aldain]

6 hours ago, kapn655321 said:

WHAT THIS THREAD IS ABOUT is how the core mechanics of the game got swept away... and beneath the years of power creep and mindless grinding, there is a foundation that is STEALTH BASED, and players are Desiring This.

Poor Stealth...it just keeps getting mauled harder and harder.

Though the thread didn't start about such things, it just kind of meandered over to this topic and thus here we are.

[Krankbert]

vor 6 Stunden schrieb kapn655321:

Was not part of the original game design, is optional, and is not what the players in this thread, defying that trend, are asking for.

Do you get that?

The game mechanics of this "designed-from-the-groud-up" stealth game are so basic, simplistic and skippable that there are permanently invisible characters with silent rocket launchers. I don't care about the "original game design". I can't go play a version of a game that only ever existed in some designers' heads. The only game we can play is the one that actually exists, and that's the one where the enemies can't see me, can't hear me and don't get alerted by the explosion that just vaporized their buddies around the next corner.

[SneakyErvin]

7 hours ago, kapn655321 said:

Was not part of the original game design, is optional, and is not what the players in this thread, defying that trend, are asking for.

Do you get that?

Not even the initial WF was very well made as a stealth game.

Good stealth games should be like Hitman, Styx, Syphon Filter, Thief, Splinter Cell and so on.

[GEN-Son_17]

The game has always been split between two basic core enemy behaviors in regards to mission types: enemies need to know you're there or enemies don't need to know you're there. Spy, exterminate, rescue, a part of capture and about half of the sabotage mission types don't require the enemy to know you're there. All of these are missions I've done completely undetected with Frost, Umbra, Banshee and, of course, the stealth based frames and all of those are awesome experiences! A MUCH better experience was with a complete squad running stealth exterminate on Adaro and using flares to increase the affinity range for the xp stealth bonuses.

With that being said, I'd love for DE to add low maintenance, easy (hopefully) to add options for stealth or loot completion play:

- Rare resources like Kuva, Torids, Nitain, etc cache bonuses for clearing all loot crates and plant scans. Another, perhaps easier option would be to integrate this into faction medallion hunts, combining the hidden cache game. If all 8 medallions and all three caches are found, then the bonus applies. This could also work for spy missions. Resource will be based off of location and faction.

- Shared stealth affinity bonus for the squad. If one player stealth kills, another can stealth kill to keep the timer refreshed. Encourages teamwork.

- Unalerted bonus endo and/or rare resource for completing the mission without an alarm. 2x for rescue missions.

- Stealth multiplier bonus applied to credits at the end of exterminate missions. Also, killing enemy at max stealth multiplier increases chance for mod drops (which, by default, increases credit or endo when selling/converting the mod AND enemy rare mod drop chances). Bonus is applied when the Lotus announces the enemy has been broken.

The idea behind all of these bonuses is to reward squad play, thoroughness, patience and tactics. The rarest rewards are still the most difficult to get: silently clear the enemies, find all special items and hidden items, avoid traps and cameras, silence your weapons or watch your distance. 

 

[kapn655321]

2 hours ago, Krankbert said:

I can't go play a version of a game that only ever existed in some designers' heads.

The only reason you can't opt to play that way is because it's counter productive to the loot required.

OP and others literally said how they literally can play this way in this game.. and as I pointed out it's a role-play simply because of the loot economy, and the lack of a single mechanic.

Why you have to fight me and pretend that none of that exists is a you problem.

[kapn655321]

3 hours ago, Aldain said:

it just kind of meandered over to this topic

You're right, there.. though the feelings about parties being able to do anything but run/gun style is largely, 'the stealth being less efficient and underdeveloped, gets swallowed up by run/gun,' or party comp meta. So I did overstate that there, that's fair to say, but understandably not by a lot. Unless we're counting hallway hero, which is 'stand still and gun' which feels further off from OP's main topic.

A lot of it is, leaning into the run/gun nuke power creep is undermining a lot of the mechanics/fun for many players as long as it forces players to do that to play public and generally advance in game.

[Krankbert]

vor einer Stunde schrieb kapn655321:

The only reason you can't opt to play that way is because it's counter productive to the loot required.

OP and others literally said how they literally can play this way in this game.. and as I pointed out it's a role-play simply because of the loot economy, and the lack of a single mechanic.

Why you have to fight me and pretend that none of that exists is a you problem.

You're just trying to have it both ways - the game is both designed as a stealth game and playable as a stealth game, and at the same time those game mechanics got swept away and the game needs changes to enable stealth gameplay - just so you can say I'm wrong. This is pathetic.

[p_silveira]

On 2021-02-14 at 3:28 PM, Travis05 said:

The map is clean in seconds, and im there with a hitscan weapon, looking like an idiot.

Couldn't agree more. On today's sortie (PC) I aborted the Lua Defense phase 2 times (even as I was the host in one of them) because I was playing a frame with a precision/non AoE weapon and couldn't do anything, because in one there were 2 Embers meteor showering the entire map every 4 seconds and it became so much explosions it felt like a Michael Bay movie, and the other one there was a Mesa one-shotting everything in sight, at one point when I checked the mission stats Mesa had killed like 180 enemies, one guy killed 1 enemy, and me and the other one killed 0 enemies both (and neither of us were afk doing nothing, we were trying to actively play the mission).

The game is impossible to play on public matches if you don't want to play a nuke/AoE all the map gameplay style. If the game design basically punishes you for not playing on a specific gameplay style (when the game has many) I'd say there is something very wrong with the game design in general. 

[(PSN)Yggranya]

On 2021-02-14 at 8:28 PM, Travis05 said:

I usually play public always, and im tired of trying to compete with my team for kills. AOE weapons, nuke warframes...The map is clean in seconds, and im there with a hitscan weapon, looking like an idiot. I like sniper and precision, and frames that reward skill. However, with this game is almost impossible to use more than two braincells in most cases. Might as well just stay AFK and see my team clean the mission. 

You can say, play solo. But that is not the issue. That solution actually solves nothing, this is a mmorpg. The teamplay should feel good, not a borefest.

When i come across people like this (which is every time i try a public game, or when opening relics) i just start exploring and opening containers and breaking crates, and if i find an ayatan sculpture, i mark it. Not like there is anything else for me to do. The extra minute they need to wait at the end is, of course, the end of the world, but that is just too bad.

It is sad that the only solution is to play solo, but it is what it is.

[Berzerkules]

6 minutes ago, (PSN)Yggranya said:

When i come across people like this (which is every time i try a public game, or when opening relics) i just start exploring and opening containers and breaking crates, and if i find an ayatan sculpture, i mark it. Not like there is anything else for me to do. The extra minute they need to wait at the end is, of course, the end of the world, but that is just too bad.

It is sad that the only solution is to play solo, but it is what it is.

Cracking relics is pretty much pub speed runs. 

Getting upset that people are rushing fissures is like driving 20 mph down the freeway getting mad at people for driving to fast.