Jump to content
Temporary sub-forum for Update 30: Call of the Tempestarii ×

Could 2021 finally be the year that Nekros would get his rework.


Recommended Posts

If you don't care to read, As this will be a longer post, The suggested changes are in bold with few other things.

also Shadows Of The Dead will be called SOTD or 4 from this point onward

 

While it was nice that DE changed soul punch to be little better a while back, Could Nekros finally get the last push and get his 2 and 4 to be remotely useful.

As a Nekros main ever since he shipped back in update 10 , I loved his kit, Even though back then outside his number 3 the kit was real bad, True there have been other  good candidates for reworks such as Vauban, Nyx, Ember and the likes, Meanwhile Nekros has gotten 2/4 parts of rework done in very small increments for some reason.

First was the desecrate change for making it an aura instead of spam cast, that was good, 1 power done out of 4 good job DE, Then came small QoL changes to his number 4, Not very meaningful but I'll take anything DE gives at that point, But we will talk about his 4 later, Nekros also got the passive skill and some stat boosts during this time which is a bonus so no complaining.

Lastly for changes we have the soul punch changes, While not groundbreaking for a number 1 power they were good enough so for now at least his number 1 is also in a good enough of a place.

 

2/4 powers done and this only took 7 years.... well anyway back to the topic at hand.

So now lets talk about the elephants in the room.

His 2 and 4

Since terrify is an easier fix I'll start with that one.

 

Terrify Is one of the few skills in warframe which has both a range and max units affected cap, If memory serves Vauban's bastille used the be the 2nd one, but now as they turn into vacuums with no unit limit when the bastille ends terrify is the only skill in game that has both range and affected units cap.

This could have been a balance choice back in 2013, But now its just a line of code saying F u for playing Nekros for something else than a loot slave.

Terrify is also one of the few power with the ability to still ''troll'' or slow down certain missions as to how the power works, Oh you used terrify in defense mission, time to run around at the ends of the map to pick up those enemies running away from the objective where your whole team is, Oh there are no power cells nearby for extractors, Go look 400 meters away in a backroom where the carrier ran of to, Not only are the running enemies slowing down most missions actively, Fleeing enemies move unpredictably making shooting them very annoying with certain weapons. But they also seem to get slight movement speed bonus from terrify (5-10 %) or that's how it seems when they run in panic.

 

But were not done with terrify just yet, Besides making targets flee, Terrify also reduces armor, Which is nice but then you consider how it never stacked same way as multiple corrosive projections did for example, The armor reduction was and still is virtually useless against corpus and infested, Meanwhile something like Loki's radial disarm which has been in the game since launch has a damaging effect to melee enemies to compensate it a little so its not useless against certain factions.

 

So a vanilla frame has a skill with adaptive options for multiple factions while a frame from update 10 has not.

And yes creeping terrify helps the skills making it more useful against all factions, But even with the augment the power still has a dead component for most enemies, And has arbitrary unit limit, while much more powerful CC powers do not and are tied only how far their range goes.

 

And as a last note, The soul punch changes clearly came with the helminth system, I am 99% certain that DE looked at the stats saw how soul punch was Nekros's most replaced ability and worked based on that, But DE clearly didn't look at the data on how many times someone imbued Terrify on other frames, Because if they did both powers would have gotten buffs.

 

Now for the fixes, Terrify is really easy to fix.

1st Remove the affected units cap.

2nd Change the armor reduction into 20-30% bonus dmg for all factions, or apply this affect if no armor is present.

3rd If the enemy goes too far from Nekros they fall to the ground covering in fear (there literally are animations in game where the enemies take cover and try to protect themselves)

The first 2 are the more important ones, and the 3rd is just to prevent the ability from actively hindering you and your team in kill focused missions, And the augment can stay as it is.

Alright were done with terrify, And oh lord that was the shorter one...

 

SOTD might just be the most useless, Energy hungry, Kill inefficient, Skill in the game, But its also one of the Coolest and most unique skill in the game.

Back in 2013 the concept of doing what Nyx does with her mind control but you know times 7 sounded awesome, And even in current day it still does, having things like 7 Dargyn air support in plains of eidolon is only doable with Nekros, Or The ability to create a shadow Dargyn you can ride yourself, Or summoning friendly grineer fighters in railjack missions to fight enemy ships, There was even a time when Nekros could revive himself and team mates with his ultimate, Those are few examples how much you can/could do.

( Though DE likes to nerf the cooler things at times, but there are ways to circumvent those at times)

 

But besides said cool things, otherwise SOTD is just plainly a bad skill.

Skip to next line past this one if you want to skip warframes AI summary

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

First of all the biggest issue with SOTD is that its an AI skill, And well the AI in warframe is pretty bad as they are coded to hit players not each other, Few examples of this brilliant AI being, 2 enemies looking at each other behind cover while taking pot shots and neither one hits, Melee shadows missing hits on enemies standing still, Random Inaccuracy out of no where, Random magazine capacity sometimes reloading after few shots, sometimes shooting more than the gun has in mag.

(And yes I have counted things like how many times can a shield lancer shoot with a Marelok, My personal best is 23 rounds before having to reload and Marelok has a mag of 6 for those who didn't remember)

And that is just the actions the AI is doing, This does not count their dmg performance, While certain shadows do lot more damage than others and even with the soul punch changes, There is only so little the player can do when it comes to deploying your shadows. A tusk predator can out dps 3 mortar bombards alone, But tusk predator is a low value soul, So you most likely wont get to deploy one without soul punch, And naturally this was not an option until recently.

Other issue with SOTD unit aim is that if there are enemies that have weak spots, SOTD unit may or may not shoot at said spots, Usually they only hit weak spots due to their inaccuracy or the enemy moving in front of the projectiles, Otherwise SOTD units basically just standing around doing nothing when fighting things like Nox's or Bursas.

But that's not the only issue, The performance is even worsened when the levels go up, Enemy armor scales much more than enemy dmg ever does, On lower levels 20-45 the 2.5-5x dmg multiplier works nicely, But after that point the shadows lose efficiency rapidly, You would think that a power which scales based on killed enemy levels would do better in higher levels, Well it does not, For example around lvl 120, 3 shadow heavy gunners cannot kill a same tier heavy gunner before their HP drains away and they die, As they do things like get staggered from a single impact proc, or change targets and start their spool up sequence again, same goes for corpus techs.

And to top it all of is that factions own guns usually are bad against said faction, Units like bombards which SOTD favors do blast damage which is resisted by all types of grineer expect machinery A.K.A ROLLERS Known for being the most dangerous grineer unit in the faction.

And on corpus side of things, You never get things like shield drones (soul punch buffs helps with this now) Instead you get things like fusion moas and corpus Techs, While fusion moas do heat damage and can stack the proc to good effect, They also get staggered/knocked constantly due to wanting to rush heavy units, They also miss calculate their range and shoot at air, Or they do this weird T bag emote while being shot at only to get staggered by an impact proc and trying to do it again.

Techs on the other hand have decent DPS (at best) if they could shoot their guns, Not only does the inaccuracy heavily affect guns like Supra, They also stop their max spool fire to reload for no reason, 30-40 rounds in and they reload, And the Shadow versions are really reluctant to drop the shield ospreys unlike their normal variants do, Because they need to lose both shields and health for them to use the ability, But they usually just decay of passive HP loss and never drop a drone.

As for infested, Its nice to get a healer ancient for the aura it provides, But I don't need 5 of them when I cast SOTD, And things like Ancient disruptor and Toxin ancient auras have almost no use at all, And all 3 are favored summons for SOTD Other big brain summons are things like crawlers which never catch anything, Or infested moas which jump, And jump again because infested like to get close doing practically nothing.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

SO yeah and that is just the AI issues SOTD as a power is well a ''HIGH MAINTENANCE'' to say the least.

You cannot sacrifice on STR or you lose hp and dmg multipliers.

Duration governs how often you need to spam your number 4 to heal up your shadows if you don't want them to die of old age in 30 seconds.

Efficiency is self explanatory, So not having lot of that will also burn trough your energy ( also considering Desecrates Hp/energy need you can't sac that too much either)

Range is the only thing you can really give up, But that only affects all other powers you have, So unless you're making a pure SOTD build enjoy not wanting to sacrifice range either.

Also there is a 5th attribute unique to SOTD not found in other powers in game and that is souls, Nekros can hold up to 20 souls at a time, When the list is full the earlier kills will be dropped out, Even if they were units such as Eximus units or heavy units, If you didn't summon them in time you lose their respective souls, Souls also in this list are placed into value categories, High Medium Low, And SOTD favors always high category even when better units such as tusk predators and scorches are in medium and low categories, And as a extra annoyance, If your team mates kill something, You do not get said soul even if you damaged the unit, Meaning that if there are frames like Saryn, Equinox or Mesa running around, SOTD passively loses effectiveness if your team mates are fast at killing, Again a redundancy that no other power really has in game.

 

Many other ultimate abilities in warframe allow far greater optimization than SOTD, Due to them being simpler in function most of the time, And being more effective 100% of the time, Besides atlas's golems, But even the rock boys can throw their stone heads to stagger enemies, Something SOTD units cannot.

And to top it all of, Wukong's number 1 power, Is just better SOTD in any way, It has perfect accuracy, Does more dmg, Can do melee or range combat, has CC augment, automatically recalls to you, Can be given priority commands, Can heal itself, Can use all of wukong skills, Has wall hacks, Is more aggressive, HAS INFINITE DURATION, Has more armament roles it can fill, And can even be high fived.

 

As for SOTD augment, Its fine I suppose, Could use some work too or perhaps  a brand new one, As over the years things like stat boosts, shield gate, umbral mods, The passive skill, And healing skills from helminth himself and other Hp regen mods have made Shield of Shadow bit redundant.

 

Now after that long and painful summary is over for the harder part, Fixing SOTD.

 

1st Remove the health decay, Either Have it gone for good, Or have Atlas style timer which you can recast, The HP drain just reduces the Shadows already poor combat efficiency.

2nd Give Shadows that aimbot Wukong's clone has, And melee units could also use the more aggressive AI like atlas rumblers have for example)

3rd Give the ability to paint targets same way as wukongs clone can for extra dmg, Tap to mark, hold to recast and heal shadows.

4th Have shadows follow Nekros more or have the target paint ability be able to be cast on terrain to make shadows move to painted location.

5th Give melee shadows stagger/ stun resistances When fighting against grineer and corpus the shadows tend to get stun locked and bullied to death most of the time

6th Either Pump up the DMG bonus for SOTD, Or give them Revenant style adapt dmg type of deal (corpus shadows get extra magnetic dmg, Infested get gas, etc)

 

As a quick statement, While I don't want Nekros ulti to be 7 wukong clones, the 6th point is still there because even a Nyx mind control unit with mind freak having 1000% bonus dmg, does jack all against In high lvl content unless its a right unit against another right enemy unit, But if the first 4 are given, its at least hell of a lot better, also the shadows still wouldn't get access to warframe weapons with mods and static 2x dmg boost, So having SOTD give them 8x dmg bonus is still nothing compared what Wukong gets for his NUMBER 1.

 

So if you made it this far, I want to thank you whoever you are reading this, There are typos I'm sure, And I'll apologize for those as English is not primary language.

And naturally just because I am a Nekros main this doesn't make a game developer, The changes I proposed here Especially with the AI parts, Aren't just ''oh just change value from 0 to 1'' which I understand, But most of these could be done in 10 minutes or less at least the terrify changes and I'm going to be honest here, I'm kinda mad that it took 7 years to get Nekros to this point, Aka 50% complete.

Also my plan is not to make Nekros be the best frame or some perfect jack of all trades frame, The goal is just to remove stupid redundancies that Nekros has what other frames with similar powers do not, And these changes wouldn't change the core role of what Nekros excels at, Just makes him more fun to play, And gives him more reasons to be played than just, Oh look ''loot''

And I know that 99,9% chance this topic won't make a difference, That this will never reach eyes of a DE employer, But at least I did what I could instead of crying in public chat saying how ''X Thing bad''

Naturally If you disagree with my points, Feel free to comment about it, Personally I'd like to hear thoughts of other Nekros mains out there (if there are any left at this point) But any feedback in from anyone is welcome as it does signal boost this to DE.

 

Thx for reading and hope 2021 will be a good year for Warframe, Sincerely a Nekros main of 7 years.

 

 

  • Like 6
Link to post
Share on other sites

I was just thinking of this. I hate that Nekros has no other use than  farming and that sucks since I've always thought necromancers were the coolest. His abilities are just really weak. Soul punch doesn't do much. terrify is pretty counterintuitive when what you need most of the time is to kill, and desecrate is kind of a waste of an ability in normal gameplay. I guess its good for getting health and energy orbs but I kind of wish that his shadows had their own desecrate field so that desecrate could be swapped with something more interesting. He's just not that unique or fun to play unfortunately. I just can't force myself to use him.

Edited by (PSN)i7081277
  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites

Sevagoth is stepping pretty firmly on his ghastly territory, too.

 

Nekros is entirely propped up by his 3.  The thing is, his 3 is so good that he's not likely to warrant much attention.  As you point out, there have been (and still are) others that need more help.  I do hope, though, that his 1, 2, and 4 get touched up a bit.  Honestly, I'd prefer that his 4 get completely tossed out and replaced with something that doesn't create so much unreadable clutter in the heat of combat, but I know I'm in the minority in this viewpoint.

  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, sunderthefirmament said:

Sevagoth is stepping pretty firmly on his ghastly territory, too.

 

Nekros is entirely propped up by his 3.  The thing is, his 3 is so good that he's not likely to warrant much attention.  As you point out, there have been (and still are) others that need more help.  I do hope, though, that his 1, 2, and 4 get touched up a bit.  Honestly, I'd prefer that his 4 get completely tossed out and replaced with something that doesn't create so much unreadable clutter in the heat of combat, but I know I'm in the minority in this viewpoint.

I mean they did buff his number 1, It has instakill feature now at 25%, If you kill someone with it it full heals all your shadows, And if you dont have max shadows when you kill a target with soul punch or 3 secs after it hits, It turns into a shadow, Which is cool I suppose, It helps you get those scorches shield ospreys and the like.

 

Is this optimal soul punch, Hard to say when wukong got his number 1 skill from one of the worst in game, Upgraded into one of the best in game, So its hard to know what could soul punch have in a perfect world.

 

But like I said, At this point I'll take anything I can get.

Thx for the reply though, Although I think sevagoth is more like a ghost while Nekros is supposed to be a necromancer, But I guess the whole theme around death is similar, But then again so is Nezha and Ember, Both being very fire based frames. And again wisp was also supposed to be a ghost or something, I have no clue what the frames really are at this point, Soon well get a Air frame that is transparent or something like that.

Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, (PSN)i7081277 said:

I was just thinking of this. I hate that Nekros has no other use than  farming and that sucks since I've always thought necromancers were the coolest. His abilities are just really weak. Soul punch doesn't do much. terrify is pretty counterintuitive when what you need most of the time is to kill, and desecrate is kind of a waste of an ability in normal gameplay. I guess its good for getting health and energy orbs but I kind of wish that his shadows had their own desecrate field so that desecrate could be swapped with something more interesting. He's just not that unique or fun to play unfortunately. I just can't force myself to use him.

Like I said terrify is one of the few skill in game that can actually slow down the mission progress, And it has some archaic Max enemies affected cap from 2013.

 

But still my biggest gripe is that Wukong's number 1 its just better,  If you want a summoner frame its better to take wukong, Some chinese folk lore monkey man VS the literal necromancer frame.
 

And like I said, terrify is such an easy fix, its just few number tweaks and a line of code ''if corpus/infested apply debuff'' SOTD might be way harder as it has to dance with that ''Enemy AI''

But I swear If Pablo had patreon or something, Id pass him like 50 bucks and have him fix terrify in 15 minutes...

 

But who knows, Maybe something comes in the future, So far if I remember correctly every single Nekros change has been unannounced, Or atleast I had not heard anything beforehand about any of them, latest soul punch buff included.

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 3 weeks later...

I got a super fun Nekros build.  I was never into shadows,  so this is just purely for Desocrate...

I use arcane energize and barrier.  I have 1k base shields and adaptation.   I have injected Harrow's Condemn into his 1st.

So now he pretty much has a near invincible shield that is 2300 that I can refill whenever I want and I just run around slicing and dicing and looting and spamming condemn.  I have about 50m+ range on desocrate.  

Its taken me from playing Nekros passively to playing him very active.   

I also had a build or gara's spectrorage ability.  It had a pretty short duration 30s...    I tried to make him run off energy but it didnt work lol.  But I also loved that build.   It lures enemies into the ring and I could sit there with an atmo gun and mow stuff down.   I dont know if I can have that build anymore.   I changed some forma for my shield tank/harrow build.    Spectro+shadows is a cool mix tho.    Frame abilities that make you stationary are only good in some missions tho.  

 

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

To quote my own prior post:

Passive should give 0.5% lifesteal to self and same amount divided across allies in Desecrate or vs feared enemies

Soul Punch just deals % max hp true damage (and tips notes explain knockback/knockdown depends on proximity and elevation) instead of anti-synergy trashxecute

Terrify slows default to not annoy allies and has a resistance reduction as augment

Desecrate initial cast cost removed (its 10 energy cost to activate is the only actual hard downside energy version for farm has compared to despoil)

Shadows have UI in arsenal letting you select priority and AI type for all units (since it already has a priority table in game, just not one players can tweak)
OR replaced with exalted GIANT SCYTHE that just has a defensive (damage/lifesteal building halo/iron skin like technocyte ward that decays) and a minion augment (killed enemies raise as current shadows, but uncapped)

Some 4 ui indicator, if possible one also colour coded for eximi and unit type, if not changed to giant #*!%off scythe.

Edited by Andele3025
  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

Honestly I'd rather not

good odds are that DE will use the Rework as an opportunity to Nerf his #3 "cause its overused and we like balance" etc made up excuses.

can't you have Not buying those drop chance boosters cause your WF has a free one...

 

Lets put it this way, remember when we all wanted a Self Damage rework and what we got was a huge blanket nerf to both AoE falloff and the pain of self stagger on weapons that had no Self Damage to begin with? Overall lost out big on that one.

They're gonna find some way of twisting and corrupting your request. DE never concedes anything for free, it'll come at some cost to something else.

Edited by (PSN)haphazardlynamed
  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

While I am newer, Ive played a lot of Nekros and have some suggestions:

1) Why not have his soul punch act as a targeter for when it doesn't kill an enemy, this will help with directing the minions.

2) Another thing I think can work is, why not give Nekros something similar to equinox's 4. Before what I get into what I mean by that, I want to start by introducing some options to his kit.

-Give Nekros the choice between summoning an army, and summoning 1 unique champion style unit, that is unique to each faction as it will resemble an undead corpse, but with the faction traits, like a corpus might look corpusy, an infested would kinda give ancient healer vibes, but all unique and new if you get what I'm getting at.

Now to what I mean, so by equinox 4, I mean that when an enemy dies in the radius of desecrate, Nekros claims their soul, lets use these claimed souls to empower the minions Nekros summons. The empowerment can be an all stat increase scaling off the number of souls claimed, it can increase their health, damage, armor, shield if they have them, and with your suggestion of the removal of health decay, it would solidify his position as a 1 man army. Now just imagine, all those souls infused into 1 single champion, sure it would kill the area presence, but it would make 1 stronger unit as opposed to many other weaker units. This would give Nekros more of a boss killer option in a sense, and these champions can have faction unique effects too, just to add on. For example, if its infested it will give off an aura of toxin, if its corpus it could be an aura of electricity/magnetic or a nulifier effect, if its grineer just make it extra thicc.

Link to post
Share on other sites
On 2021-03-04 at 11:23 PM, (PSN)haphazardlynamed said:

good odds are that DE will use the Rework as an opportunity to Nerf his #3 "cause its overused and we like balance" etc made up excuses.

Truth be told, I'd be happy if Desecrate in its current form were removed entirely, along with every other loot-boosting ability in the game. The ability does very little outside of generating more loot, and serves no real purpose other than to fulfil the metagaming need for obtaining certain drops faster, which we should all be doing just by playing the game (Warframe is a looter shooter, after all). It's a crutch that has single-handedly corrupted Nekros's theme and niche, turning him from the game's necromancer to the game's loot frame. Loot abilities in general are unimaginative ways of making certain frames and abilities more desirable, and don't really generate any gameplay of their own (in fact, in the case of Hydroid and Khora's 4 augments, they tend to encourage camping playstyles in endurance runs, which arguably make for restrictive and boring gameplay). I'd much rather have some other mechanic instead, like a corpse explosion that could potentially also generate extra orbs, ammo, and life support, and if that leaves Nekros really weak, that would simply show just how dependent he is on that one ability to even be considered worth using, and how much he'd need a rework to feel truly good to play.

Beyond that, I generally agree with the OP's criticism and suggestions: strip away the loot bonus, and Nekros is actually quite a pathetic frame, with a kit that needs augments just to be able to do anything meaningful at all. His 1 still doesn't do that much, Terrify actively slows down gameplay by making enemies run away, and Shadows of the Dead are as good as any other enemy-based minion ability in the game, which is to say not at all. He needs comprehensive changes that make these abilities actually work, and work with one another too, so that he's more than just a loot frame. There also needs to be an ally AI rework somewhere along the way, especially if we're finally getting Command Intrinsics for Railjack, because it's difficult to make any sort of minion ability useful when companions are so perpetually confused they often forget to move or attack.

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
54 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

It's a crutch that has single-handedly corrupted Nekros's theme and niche, turning him from the game's necromancer to the game's loot frame. Loot abilities in general are unimaginative ways of making certain frames and abilities more desirable, and don't really generate any gameplay of their own (in fact, in the case of Hydroid and Khora's 4 augments, they tend to encourage camping playstyles in endurance runs, which arguably make for restrictive and boring gameplay).

Some of the most fun and intricate builds I've played use loot abilities to trigger Health Orb and Energy Orb-based effects. I'm not saying that you absolutely need loot Warframe abilities to play with some of these really cool effects (e.g. there's Synth set), but they certainly work well too. My point is that you shouldn't dismiss an entire class of abilities because they happen to largely be abused to farm materials... because players like me actually use these abilities for legitimate gameplay reasons (e.g. before Helminth, you could use loot abilities and Equilibrium to reliably fuel Khora in ESO where energy pads can't be used).

Link to post
Share on other sites
34 minutes ago, nslay said:

Some of the most fun and intricate builds I've played use loot abilities to trigger Health Orb and Energy Orb-based effects. I'm not saying that you absolutely need loot Warframe abilities to play with some of these really cool effects (e.g. there's Synth set), but they certainly work well too. My point is that you shouldn't dismiss an entire class of abilities because they happen to largely be abused to farm materials... because players like me actually use these abilities for legitimate gameplay reasons (e.g. before Helminth, you could use loot abilities and Equilibrium to reliably fuel Khora in ESO where energy pads can't be used).

If that's the case, then the solution is easy: make those abilities only drop orbs, ammo, and life support, and remove their ability to drop rewards. Problem solved.

But really, the loot you are describing is not the loot I've described: as pointed out in my corpse explosion suggestion, I think the ability to produce drops with in-mission benefits such as orbs, ammo, and LS is fine, because all of that has a direct gameplay benefit. By contrast, increasing an enemy's ability to drop mods, crafting resources, credits, and blueprints provides no in-game benefit, those are all metagame benefits by accelerating our ability to farm missions. I think we should remove those metagaming mechanics, while preserving and even enhancing mechanics that let enemies drop stuff we want for the purposes of the mission itself. Nezha does this fabulously already, for example, by using his chakram to shower us in health and Energy orbs, as does Hildryn more situationally with her 4. I think it would be perfectly fine if Nekros's passive were reworked to increase the chance for nearby enemies to drop additional orbs, LS, or ammo on death, I just don't think he or any other frame should have a mechanic oriented specifically towards farming a mission for specific drops.

Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

If that's the case, then the solution is easy: make those abilities only drop orbs, ammo, and life support, and remove their ability to drop rewards. Problem solved.

Works for me!

3 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

But really, the loot you are describing is not the loot I've described: as pointed out in my corpse explosion suggestion, I think the ability to produce drops with in-mission benefits such as orbs, ammo, and LS is fine, because all of that has a direct gameplay benefit. By contrast, increasing an enemy's ability to drop mods, crafting resources, credits, and blueprints provides no in-game benefit, those are all metagame benefits by accelerating our ability to farm missions. I think we should remove those metagaming mechanics, while preserving and even enhancing mechanics that let enemies drop stuff we want for the purposes of the mission itself. Nezha does this fabulously already, for example, by using his chakram to shower us in health and Energy orbs, as does Hildryn more situationally with her 4. I think it would be perfectly fine if Nekros's passive were reworked to increase the chance for nearby enemies to drop additional orbs, LS, or ammo on death, I just don't think he or any other frame should have a mechanic oriented specifically towards farming a mission for specific drops.

I also don't like how loot frames override preference even for casual play... just because you can get significantly more materials that are otherwise hard/annoying to farm. I don't want to play a frame like Nekros... ever! But he works better in Orb Vallis than Khora for Toroids (haven't tried Atlas or Hydroid) because Strangledome doesn't affect all enemies (but Desecrate affects all corpses).

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
11 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

Truth be told, I'd be happy if Desecrate in its current form were removed entirely, along with every other loot-boosting ability in the game.

I completely agree. Always felt Desecrate could've been a passive and just drops extra ammo or health orbs, dedicating it to a single ability really is a waste.

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

yes, Terrify makes Enemies flee, and increases their Speed.
frankly, the purpose built reason for the Ability is for it to let you clear an area of Enemies. thesedays that could also be done with some sort of Ragdolling Shockwave, but scary arm waving is kinda more thematic for Nekros than becoming a walking bomb.

and anyways, i like that functionality of it. i wouldn't say no to more functionality, but i like those features.

as a side note while having a Strength modified target cap is unnecessary, every good Nekros Mod Loadout thesedays has good Strength anyways because of how it interacts with Shadows and the Augment, which are a staple of the Warframe.

On 2021-02-14 at 4:47 PM, Flustershy said:

2nd Change the armor reduction into 20-30% bonus dmg for all factions, or apply this affect if no armor is present.

i'll take the latter, sure. stackable Armor weaken, or bonus Damage if no Armor.

 

 

 

Shadows is mainly not being able to pick what your Summon so you get a mismosh of things that are somewhat useful but of limited use compared to say, what the game Spawns as Enemies themselves.
ideally you'd want to pick a mixture of offensive and defensive Units, some for dealing Damage and some for protecting the lot from taking Damage, Et Cetera.

how would the game manage that for Shadows that isn't ridiculously complicated and/or has an insanely complex UI for it? i don't know. i didn't know in Update 10 when Nekros came out, and i don't know now. it's what Nekros needs, i just don't know how to provide it.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Nekros is a interesting frame right now, he's one of the most played frames for really only one reason: looting. 

There is nothing wrong with that really, but it shouldn't be the only thing he's good at? Once you boil down his skills, he's really niche and so augment dependent it hurts! 

I think there are plenty to be said about his passive and 1-3 skills but I think the real problem is with his Shadows of the Dead, it's a mess of an ability to the point where I've seen people in public games just straight up leave just because they have a Shadows Nekros! (This is while complaining about it in chat) 

Shadows have a lot of problems in my book. 

  • Being kill dependent: You need to kill to build shadows, while that is fine and a easy problem to solve, but given how squishy he is without his shadows, it's really dangerous! The changes to soul punch make this easier but still the start can be REALLY rough in high level missions. 
  • Lack of control: Shadows just do whatever they want, mostly they'll fight but sometimes they'll just stay in cover and not attack anything (Mostly when using Grineer I noticed) You don't have any control or even the ability to nudge them towards a target or to follow you or anything! 
  • Mobility: Shadows are slow, they don't follow you that well either, they'll try but they are really at their best while you're in one room with plenty of space, so if you want to move around you'll have to recast (which is another problem on itself) otherwise your mobility is limited by your shadows. (This is made even worse with the augment since your damage reduction is dependent on your shadows being somewhat near) 
  • Recasting woes: Recasting SOTD to restore health is fine but the summoning existing shadows to your location is such a buggy mess it's not funny: Shadows can just straight up ignore being summoned to your current location if they are doing ANYTHING instead of standing about and shooting, if they are in cover for example, they'll not move. In some cases they'll teleport to you then back teleport back to there previous location! it's maddening. 
  • Visability: Shadows are quite loud on the eyes, which is fine, but you can't see what's behind them, it's one of the reasons some people hate playing with a Shadows Nekros I've noticed. 
  • Insane requirements: Shadows really do need a LOT of help to be able to kill enemies effectively, I'd understand a bit of help to improve what they can really do but for Shadows (which are a great example of how enemy on enemy damage is just... bad) they need a LOT. Even with over 300% Power Strength, Grendel Buffs/Rhino Roar, Smite+Augment, it's still easy to outpace them.  Nash Prime did a great video of getting more out of your Shadows but damn they shouldn't need that much work and arcanes to be useful! 
  • Boring Playstyle: I love Necromancer classes, the summoning aspect can be slow and not many games get that right balance of speed and minions but Nekros doesn't even hit close to it, due to your lack of mobility you are often stuck in one room, just doing one thing, not much else, there is little to no involvement, no investment to put into your shadows to be worth it, just... well... nothing? 

These are just my thoughts on where the problem really is for Nekros, I do think OP has really nailed the points on the head here but sadly given the rate of Nekros being used I don't think we'll get a rework, I just hope we get another frame with proper minions or summons. 

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
47 minutes ago, Mediloric said:

Nekros is a interesting frame right now, he's one of the most played frames for really only one reason: looting. 

There is nothing wrong with that really, but it shouldn't be the only thing he's good at? Once you boil down his skills, he's really niche and so augment dependent it hurts! 

He really isnt augment dependent (except for making terrify not hamper allies). Despoil certainly opens up more resource management but that hasnt been hard required ever and isnt required at all for a ok sustainable loop for circa 2 years now. Rez punch effectively had the few scenarios one might want it over operator rez removed from the game. SoS makes steel path more breezy and serves as extra DR on bosses that cheat mechanics/have hard lockons instead of aggro but otherwise shadows on their own aggro pull/draw damage more than well enough (short of hard taunts they are among the highest priority rising abilities in game).

47 minutes ago, Mediloric said:
  • Being kill dependent: You need to kill to build shadows, while that is fine and a easy problem to solve, but given how squishy he is without his shadows, it's really dangerous! The changes to soul punch make this easier but still the start can be REALLY rough in high level missions. 

Shadows are just one of 3 layers of 90%+ DR each on nekros. SP trashxecute actually makes it worse because at 7 shadows any kills with it are removed from the shadow pool so you are decentivize from using it for its more useful portion of knockdown or knockback (whose dependency on elevation and proximity still for some eldritch reason isnt in tips).

47 minutes ago, Mediloric said:
  • Lack of control: Shadows just do whatever they want, mostly they'll fight but sometimes they'll just stay in cover and not attack anything (Mostly when using Grineer I noticed) You don't have any control or even the ability to nudge them towards a target or to follow you or anything! 

Kinda true in the sense that there is no AI type option to allow people to use shadows in different ways, but in part its also positioning. Not that most builds would use shadows as anything but either buff sources or distraction in the first place, but that too is more of a issue that shadow priority, despite being a table DE themselves updates, for some reason cant be altered by players. Anything more in terms of manual control is/should be far more down the ally of Wu, Nyx & co.

47 minutes ago, Mediloric said:
  • Recasting woes: Recasting SOTD to restore health is fine but the summoning existing shadows to your location is such a buggy mess it's not funny: Shadows can just straight up ignore being summoned to your current location if they are doing ANYTHING instead of standing about and shooting, if they are in cover for example, they'll not move. In some cases they'll teleport to you then back teleport back to there previous location! it's maddening. 

Thats if the shadow is below the 30m distance needed for them to move (or you are on unpathable terrain, in which case you already dont have much to worry). As for rubberbanding shadows, id guess its latency problem but haven't experienced it ever myself.

47 minutes ago, Mediloric said:
  • Boring Playstyle: I love Necromancer classes, the summoning aspect can be slow and not many games get that right balance of speed and minions but Nekros doesn't even hit close to it, due to your lack of mobility you are often stuck in one room, just doing one thing, not much else, there is little to no involvement, no investment to put into your shadows to be worth it, just... well... nothing? 

Might be because he isnt merely a minionmancer but the rep of the complete package. He used to have unresistable damage 1, 2 is fear, 3 is health, 4 is the undead minions. By classic tropes where minions are indeed expendable fodder he gets all but the damage right and thats only because SP damage type wasnt changed correctly. In fact the issue with his 2 some have is that its too effective as a fear and the nekros player himself isn't taking care of the enemies that were within kill zone.

 

Link to post
Share on other sites
19 hours ago, Andele3025 said:

He really isnt augment dependent (except for making terrify not hamper allies). Despoil certainly opens up more resource management but that hasnt been hard required ever and isnt required at all for a ok sustainable loop for circa 2 years now. 

You think so? I gotta disagree but I get what you're saying. Have you tried not having Despoil on with a high power strength build + Shadows? Between the corpses and the shadows, the energy cost is insane, even with a high energy pool, it drains faster than it can be replenished sometimes and in the heat of a high level area/SP that can be life or death.

Despoil (and by extension Equilibrium) eliminates that problem completely, it isn't just opening up more resource management, it makes it not be a problem in the first place, along with other mods that work well with Nekros but have massive negatives on other frames!

Take Blind Rage for example, with Despoil the higher energy cost is nearly not a issue when combine Despoil and Equilibrium as you'd be gaining so much energy it's not a problem. 

Without that Nekros can't sustain himself without outside help/pizzas, and if that doesn't say dependent I don't know what does. 

20 hours ago, Andele3025 said:

Shadows are just one of 3 layers of 90%+ DR each on nekros. SP trashxecute actually makes it worse because at 7 shadows any kills with it are removed from the shadow pool so you are decentivize from using it for its more useful portion of knockdown or knockback (whose dependency on elevation and proximity still for some eldritch reason isnt in tips).

You gotta explain this one to me a bit more: I can understand Shadows/SoS being one layer, but what's the other 2? Adaptation? I couldn't follow what you meant about this and what you said in the Augment Dependent bit about SoS.

20 hours ago, Andele3025 said:

Kinda true in the sense that there is no AI type option to allow people to use shadows in different ways, but in part its also positioning. Not that most builds would use shadows as anything but either buff sources or distraction in the first place, but that too is more of a issue that shadow priority, despite being a table DE themselves updates, for some reason cant be altered by players. Anything more in terms of manual control is/should be far more down the ally of Wu, Nyx & co.

This part was quite confusing, I'm not sure what you mean by positioning in this context, can you go into it further? 

Also I get what you mean but shouldn't a ultimate ability be more than just possibly buffing and distraction? shouldn't it... I dunno: do damage as well? Like it's look like it's meant to do?

I don't think it's a issue with shadow priority overall (though that can be problem) I'd say it's more do the lack of ability to influence anything about them? in regards to what you're saying about Wukong's Twin I wouldn't say that's a problem, in fact I think it would strengthen the argument that control is needed for any kind of summon to be effective no?

20 hours ago, Andele3025 said:

Thats if the shadow is below the 30m distance needed for them to move (or you are on unpathable terrain, in which case you already dont have much to worry). As for rubberbanding shadows, id guess its latency problem but haven't experienced it ever myself.

So you need to be below 30m for them to teleport effectively with a recast? I didn't know that! but if that's really true then that's really dumb and limits his mobility even more. 

Yeah rubberbanding can happen in both solo or pubs when it comes to shadows. Only really had it with Grineer but it's so frustrating. It's like they prioritize going to cover than being summoned. XD

20 hours ago, Andele3025 said:

Might be because he isnt merely a minionmancer but the rep of the complete package. He used to have unresistable damage 1, 2 is fear, 3 is health, 4 is the undead minions. By classic tropes where minions are indeed expendable fodder he gets all but the damage right and thats only because SP damage type wasnt changed correctly. In fact the issue with his 2 some have is that its too effective as a fear and the nekros player himself isn't taking care of the enemies that were within kill zone.

Sure, but I never said that he's a minionmancer, nor implying it, I just wanted his shadows and other parts of his kit to be more effective with each other.  

the summoning aspect is what always pulls me to Necromancer classes but it's usually the other parts that make it work well together, Take a look at Diablo 2s Necro for example, Summons, Debuffs, Soul powers etc and while Nekros does have that, it's all janky. 

Yes, he has summons but they do little to no damage unless you build for it and add in Arcanes/Augments Combos for them to work, it's a insane requirement that really should be there to make Shadows as strong as possible, not just USEABLE. 

Yes, he has a strong debuff but the enemy running away and lack of shadow interaction makes it very niche and a problem without the augment. 

Very little in Nekros outside of Desicrate is... well... good! the changes to soul punch is nice, but he needs more. 

But you do bring several good points to this and I thank you for sharing. Also didn't you do a really interesting rework on Nekros yourself involving a exaulted ally? That was pretty neat! 

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Mediloric said:

You think so? I gotta disagree but I get what you're saying. Have you tried not having Despoil on with a high power strength build + Shadows? Between the corpses and the shadows, the energy cost is insane, even with a high energy pool, it drains faster than it can be replenished sometimes and in the heat of a high level area/SP that can be life or death.

Despoil (and by extension Equilibrium) eliminates that problem completely, it isn't just opening up more resource management, it makes it not be a problem in the first place, along with other mods that work well with Nekros but have massive negatives on other frames!

Just Equilibrium (and depending on ones efficiency in body cuts and recycling ones own shadow pool/not losing potential corpses around the tileset, maybe zenurik) eliminates the problem (and synth set on companion allows the health orbs to be gobbled up at any point/even at max health). Worst/only by direct performance notably worse bit of a energy desecrate setup is that it has a initial activation cost unlike with despoil. However ill always cede the point that Despoil forms of the builds are more fun as you can juggle more resources at the same time.

3 hours ago, Mediloric said:

You gotta explain this one to me a bit more: I can understand Shadows/SoS being one layer, but what's the other 2? Adaptation? I couldn't follow what you meant about this and what you said in the Augment Dependent bit about SoS.

Adaptation and raw armor since Health Conversion too is a option. Ok technically adapt is 67% DR on adapt if account prior resists and 87% from armor but either way its past the 30k ehp mark to not get blown up by something like a SP acolyte (and if umbral even past the 40k needed to survive the bugged ancient breath multitick).
For the SoS part, i meant that other than making steel path more comfy to play by allowing one to be heavily distracted in terms of mistake count allowed/watch a movie on the side or something, the uses where its performance is notably much higher than just how much damage the shadows soak with just their high aggro is in cases where the game ignores aggro rules and just has lockon damage (which in a few cases is entirely avoidable by just stepping a bit to the side while in others it can be DE design of "oh they have operator form"/"they havemelee block which may or may not work depending on if its also a massive explosion").

3 hours ago, Mediloric said:

This part was quite confusing, I'm not sure what you mean by positioning in this context, can you go into it further? 
So you need to be below 30m for them to teleport effectively with a recast? I didn't know that! but if that's really true then that's really dumb and limits his mobility even more.

To TLDR the first bit the type of terrain you are on isnt one where enemies jump on, some shadows might not be pulled because the legal places they would be summoned is (within 10m of you) are seen by the game as effectively "inside the wall/out of the map" even if you can walk on it normally, thus the shadow wont be moved. This i hope is a issue that will to a large degree be fixed with the checks and fixes to pathing and map marking set as soonTM on the future plans since it tends to happen on tiles where navigation bugs also happen.

And for the second bit, reverse, you have to be over 30m away from them for them to teleport, id say even 34~ish just because model size, distance measurement using our ping can sometimes derp a bit and the shadows can move. Not that if you are doing the "cast mid bullet jump" what constitutes as "above 30m" also depends on how many shadows you currently have because if you have below 7 shadows/use the longer but better coded version of the animation, its first tick is actually the full heal for all current shadows (unlike the at 7 or above animation which heals at the end... which in turn also means shadows can die mid animation for their heal having you waste 100 energy) and only then does it take you current in the air position into account (which doesnt get updated as you keep momentum through air) for distance to shadows.
And unlike the bit where DE for some reason doesnt want to have a explanation in game for people to understand how soul punchs cc bit works, this is a actual performance fault as nekros could simply have a animation speed buff for his 4 based on the amount of shadows instead of having 2 differently coded versions of a skill under the same button (and it might be nice if players could also in the hypothetical Shadow priority UI select what distance shadows have to be over to teleport as same circumstances dont apply for something like OV or Railjack compared to a fissure exterminate mission.

3 hours ago, Mediloric said:

Also I get what you mean but shouldn't a ultimate ability be more than just possibly buffing and distraction? shouldn't it... I dunno: do damage as well? Like it's look like it's meant to do? Yes, he has summons but they do little to no damage unless you build for it and add in Arcanes/Augments Combos for them to work, it's a insane requirement that really should be there to make Shadows as strong as possible, not just USEABLE.

I don't think it's a issue with shadow priority overall (though that can be problem) I'd say it's more do the lack of ability to influence anything about them? in regards to what you're saying about Wukong's Twin I wouldn't say that's a problem, in fact I think it would strengthen the argument that control is needed for any kind of summon to be effective no?

Well the thing is, that depends on what you would want to do with them. A player who wants a full guard of only arctic eximus bombards that stick around to take punishment/lose more hp from decay than enemy damage is different in playstyle (and likely build) from one who wants series of scorches or techs to shred enemies but dont survive for even half the time of their less damaging bros or someone who just wants tar moas or ospreys to stick around a defense target and keep handing out candy. And the idea to micromanage them in the order form rather than AI type selection wouldnt change that much (which if you want can be seen when testing the shadows in Sim with another player using Guardian Derision and pvp on) in terms of at least damage effectiveness other than clutter controls. Not that from all the options damage is lacking because a pack of hellions, techs, corrupt crewmen, etc sure as hell do do decent damage per cast of his 4 (even without arcanes or helmy shenanigans).

TLDR: Usable depends on persons gameloop and for damage thats in big part entirely on what units you have (there is a reason why pre nerf Deimos Jugulus could kill eximus heavy grineer twice his level or why a hellion can chunk a gunner) after some 70-100 extra power strength.

3 hours ago, Mediloric said:

Sure, but I never said that he's a minionmancer, nor implying it, I just wanted his shadows and other parts of his kit to be more effective with each other.  

Here i do very much agree (and why i at least suggest the passive to lifesteal shared with either allies in desecrate, aka offering aura letting the minions heal themselves a bit or the terrify default secondary effect swap and the lifesteal share to then be vs any feared foes, as a 80% slower enemy is not just easier to hit, wont stagger the shadows with hits), as long as its through mechanical synergy (like shadows and desecrate have, being able to use the corpses of shadows to generate more orbs thus via equilibrium recast shadows for free) instead of forced interactions.

3 hours ago, Mediloric said:

But you do bring several good points to this and I thank you for sharing. Also didn't you do a really interesting rework on Nekros yourself involving a exaulted ally? That was pretty neat! 

Not me, tho i did comment a few times in the few threads that did so (be it the suggestion to let you stitching enemy traits+eat eximus auras for the frankenstein one, the nekros as exalted Darksiders reaper form or the "dont use enemies, have a single minion model we mod" ones, etc), my preference would go for a old D&D necroveil graft build (or in its modern game form, the GW2 beta death shroud) style 4 ability and/or a big scythe that then has the option to be used to just make a massive army/summons either very slowly or flat out non-decaying minions on kill.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
×
×
  • Create New...