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Melee combo counter should not affect melee weapons themselves


keikogi
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Sounds fairly anti intuitive but stick with me. 

The thing is warframe should reward people for using both melee weapons and ranged weapons .

Condition overload and instant switch to melee rewards the player for using a ranged weapon to set up the enemy with status. However melee is not that useful for setting up a ranged attack by its very nature ( you don't want to use a ranged weapon on melee range )

My sugestion is your combo counter will be used to empower you next reload. Thing off the video showing Excalibur shooting down a ship with a Paris shot.  

How it would work 

Combo no longer decays 

On next reload combo will be consumed to empower the shots on that magazine. Empowed shots blow up on impact dealing AOE damage. Total damage added is based on the base damage off the melee weapon used and the combo tier. This damage is evenly spread between all rounds on the magazine.

Since using weapons to set up melee is already supported by condition overload , here a few example of mods to use your melee weapon to support guns 

Thief Blade,  steals ammo from the enemy magazine and place it on yours .

Shadow step - teleports on  up to 30 m on melee strike(requires target),  return to original position after 5 seconds or killing the target.  

Rush down - -50% combo chance , on melee strike , 100% attack speed and 100% combo chancce for 5 seconds , 10 s cd 

 

Why do this ? 

Buffs ranged weapons.

Makes melee less linear ( removes charge attacks build and melee spam builds , these builds are bad for the game health because they enforce liner gameplay , either spam e from start to finish or only using charge attacks )

Naturally promotes weapons switching 

Makes taking down a tusk bolkor with a Paris shot feasible. So it makes the trailer no false advertisement.

The fundamental problem off why ranged and melee weapons can´t be viable at the same time comes down to time to gap close and level scalong , here a simple description of the problem. Let´s use this simple tought expiriment 

Time you take to gap close ( let's say 1 seconds for the sake of simpler tough experiments) 

Ranged dps = X ( again just placeholders to show fundamentals ) 

Melee dps = 1.5 X 

If the enemy at LVL 50 has 3 X as hp. Both ranged weapon and melee weapons will be a equally viable choice taking 3 s to kill the enemy. If the enemy goes up to LVL 120 and has 30 x hp melee weapons will take 21 seconds to kill an enemy and ranged weapon will take 30 seconds, with makes the melee weapon roughly 50% more effective. You see for melee weapon to be viable they have to do more damage than ranged weapons due to time to gap close , if they to more damage they will be thr only viable weapon as soon the level scaling shows it ugly head. It's impossible to make both viable at the same time unless one feeds the other , because whatever braking point off equivalente you create will be broken by LVL scaling.

Edited by keikogi
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30 minutes ago, Frakasat said:

If I want guns play, the solution to it being underpowered versus melee isn't forcing to play melee

 

27 minutes ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

How about you stop trying to force playstyles on people and ask for a weapon buff instead?

tbh this is objectively a good way to give ranged weaps usefulness, thing like BR or weeping wouldnt go away, so melee would still be strong and benefit your ranged weaps, simply giving an overall buff to ranged weaps wont work because a rubico wont do what a acceltra or ogris can. the idea would need some optimization so it doesnt feel forced though

Edited by -ODIN-hugeblackdude
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This is the start of something. I've been thinking up something like this for a 'mainline update' concept. I wouldn't make it necessarily base entirely off melee combo, but a 'flow' system.  There is another side of course - that weapons need to be brought up. I see a necessity in that too, in that melee's massive power advantage over ranged weapons is not good for the health of the game. 

Regardless, I like the thought experiment, but I would give this more thought because at present it's more of a combined arms strategy that makes melee more useful than less.

Edit: Looking a lot more solid now man.

Edited by Teoarrk
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I would prefer if combo was shared between weapons, instead of being something exclusive to melee. 

Combo would buff 2 things: 

1) Heavy Attack damage. 

2) Primaries/secondaries damage with half efficiency, but wouldn't consume combo, unlike heavy attacks.

A ×6 multiplier in damage is already enough to make most primaries/secondaries have damage on par with melee. Blood Rush gives much less than that, since crit stacking has diminishing returns after orange crits.

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eh, idunno. i'm okay with the overall principle of using Melee being able to do something useful for your Guns, but if it was that you describe, i wouldn't enjoy it.

i would happily throw away the Hit Counter and go more say... "hardcore" on the Melee, and less Dynasty Warriors beyblading, so that your goals are to use your tools well, rather than some arbitrary metric that largely reduces engagement rather than increases. but that's a separate subject.

Edited by taiiat
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9 hours ago, Uhkretor said:

Perfect *thumbs up*

Thx

9 hours ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

How about you stop trying to force playstyles on people and ask for a weapon buff instead? 

Guns and weapons will never be equally viable unless one relies on the other for optimal performance. 

Since weapon have the fundamental advantage off range if melee dps and weapon dps is in the same ballpark melee is useless ( that was the norm for thr majority of the game life ). However if melee weapons have enough dps to justify bothering with the risk and the time spent with gapclosing , well they will do so much damage that it makes ranged weapons accessories. Do unless melee feeds weapons , and weapons complement melee , wither weapons or melee will be useless.

I frankly don't care about who does more damage , I just think the optimal play style should incorporate both , given the whole stick of tenno "warriors off gun and blade" not "warriors off gun OR blade " 

10 hours ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

How about you stop trying to force playstyles on people and ask for a weapon buff instead? 

Buffing ranged weapons to be on par with melee weapons will just make it so melee weapons are useless because why bother gapclosing iff I can brrtt at range.

 

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10 hours ago, -ODIN-hugeblackdude said:

tbh this is objectively a good way to give ranged weaps usefulness, thing like BR or weeping wouldnt go away,

I kind off thing wearing wounds and bloodrush should be moved to the fabled " devil trigger " system. But since DE can't be bothered to make that happen,  we'll I stuck with them.

10 hours ago, -ODIN-hugeblackdude said:

melee would still be strong and benefit your ranged weaps, simply giving an overall buff to ranged weaps wont work because a rubico wont do what a acceltra or ogris can. the idea would need some optimization so it doesnt feel forced though

I feel like if you just mess with the combo categories a bit ( make thr 2 times even more accessible so the occasional quick melee can proc it before your mag runs out ) , messing a bit with melee mods ( a few examples: Thief Blade,  steals ammo from the enemy magazine and place it on yours . Shadow step - teleports up to 30 m on melee strike(requires target),  return to original position after 5 seconds or killing the target.  To support using melee to fuel the weapon. With this kind of support melee could flow well on a ranged play style and the condition overload package already makes the weapon fuel melee package worth while.

10 hours ago, Teoarrk said:

This is the start of something. I've been thinking up something like this for a 'mainline update' concept. I wouldn't make it necessarily base entirely off melee combo, but a 'flow' system.  There is another side of course - that weapons need to be brought up. I see a necessity in that too, in that melee's massive power advantage over ranged weapons is not good for the health of the game. 

Regardless, I like the thought experiment, but I would give this more thought because at present it's more of a combined arms strategy that makes melee more useful than less.

Frankly speaking I think combined arms should be the go to strategy on thr game except for enemies that require a determined strategy ( growing taker )

 

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1 minute ago, keikogi said:

Frankly speaking I think combined arms should be the go to strategy on thr game except for enemies that require a determined strategy ( growing taker )

It should be. What I was getting at is that there has to be a happy middle ground where it doesn't infringe on player choice.

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9 minutes ago, Teoarrk said:

It should be. What I was getting at is that there has to be a happy middle ground where it doesn't infringe on player choice.

That's why I suggested thr ammo steal mod and the shadow step mod. Both a mainly melee play style and mainly ranged play style should be supported but disregarding one type off should not be a optimal solution 

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28 minutes ago, keikogi said:

Thx

Guns and weapons will never be equally viable unless one relies on the other for optimal performance. 

Since weapon have the fundamental advantage off range if melee dps and weapon dps is in the same ballpark melee is useless ( that was the norm for thr majority of the game life ). However if melee weapons have enough dps to justify bothering with the risk and the time spent with gapclosing , well they will do so much damage that it makes ranged weapons accessories. Do unless melee feeds weapons , and weapons complement melee , wither weapons or melee will be useless.

I frankly don't care about who does more damage , I just think the optimal play style should incorporate both , given the whole stick of tenno "warriors off gun and blade" not "warriors off gun OR blade " 

Buffing ranged weapons to be on par with melee weapons will just make it so melee weapons are useless because why bother gapclosing iff I can brrtt at range.

 

You don't know how 50,000 plus people play a game. Are you claiming to know this? Just curious.

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1 minute ago, keikogi said:

That's why I suggested thr ammo steal mod and the shadow step mod. Both a mainly melee play style and mainly ranged play style should be supported but disregarding one type off should not be a optimal solution 

Oh I see you added to the OP. Yeah the changes make it a lot more balanced.

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2 minutes ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

You don't know how 50,000 plus people play a game. Are you claiming to know this? Just curious.

It's just a suggestion. Melee is the king of SP, so some kind of way to buff ranged weapons into viability at high level is welcome.

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2 minutes ago, Teoarrk said:

It's just a suggestion. Melee is the king of SP, so some kind of way to buff ranged weapons into viability at high level is welcome.

We're not balancing the game around SP (even though many guns do just fine with a proper build)....and even if we were,  you don't need to do anything to melee to buff weapons.

Not to mention people haven't even offered real concrete suggestions.....which weapons? An akzani doesn't need the same buff as a bramma....

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23 minutes ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

We're not balancing the game around SP (even though many guns do just fine with a proper build)....and even if we were,  you don't need to do anything to melee to buff weapons.

Not to mention people haven't even offered real concrete suggestions.....which weapons? An akzani doesn't need the same buff as a bramma....

If Keikogi was going to really work through every weapon, he'd have to write a novel. This is something that will require a lot of groundwork and special instances. 

Guy just wants to get the ball rolling, see if there is interest. SP comes to mind because that is where normally viable ranged weapons require a lot more build optimization to compete and struggling ones are just out the picture.

Edited by Teoarrk
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7 minutes ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

You don't know how 50,000 plus people play a game. Are you claiming to know this? Just curious.

I does not come down to how you play the game,  it comes down to math and level scaling. 

Time you take to gap close ( let's say 1 seconds for the sake of simpler tough experiments) 

Ranged dps = X ( again just placeholders to show fundamentals ) 

Melee dps = 1.5 X 

If the enemy at LVL 50 has 3 X as hp. Both ranged weapon and melee weapons will be a equally viable choice taking 3 s to kill the enemy. If the enemy goes up to LVL 120 and has 30 x hp melee weapons will take 21 seconds to kill an enemy and ranged weapon will take 30 seconds, with makes the melee weapon roughly 50% more effective. You see for melee weapon to be viable they have to do more damage than ranged weapons due to time to gap close , if they to more damage they will be thr only viable weapon as soon the level scaling shows it ugly head. It's impossible to make both viable at the same time unless one feeds the other , because whatever braking point off equivalente you create will be broken by LVL scaling.

 

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34 minutes ago, keikogi said:

I does not come down to how you play the game,  it comes down to math and level scaling. 

Time you take to gap close ( let's say 1 seconds for the sake of simpler tough experiments) 

Ranged dps = X ( again just placeholders to show fundamentals ) 

Melee dps = 1.5 X 

If the enemy at LVL 50 has 3 X as hp. Both ranged weapon and melee weapons will be a equally viable choice taking 3 s to kill the enemy. If the enemy goes up to LVL 120 and has 30 x hp melee weapons will take 21 seconds to kill an enemy and ranged weapon will take 30 seconds, with makes the melee weapon roughly 50% more effective. You see for melee weapon to be viable they have to do more damage than ranged weapons due to time to gap close , if they to more damage they will be thr only viable weapon as soon the level scaling shows it ugly head. It's impossible to make both viable at the same time unless one feeds the other , because whatever braking point off equivalente you create will be broken by LVL scaling.

 

It actually comes down to much more than that. Many people aren't doing literal math equations. What mods? What weapon? What faction? What weapon? What frame? What abilities are affecting the weapons DPS? Are you stripping armor completely or only 80%? Are their teammates or specters also affecting your weapon dps and the enemies? If you have a nova affecting all enemies with her 4 and a Nyx stripping armor with a mere 130% strength, then your weapon is highly effective without closing any gaps.

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32 minutes ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

actually comes down to much more than that. Many people aren't doing literal math equations. What mods? What weapon? What faction? What weapon? What frame? What abilities are affecting the weapons DPS? Are you stripping armor completely or only 80%? Are their teammates or specters also affecting your weapon dps and the enemies? If you have a nova affecting all enemies with her 4 and a Nyx stripping armor with a mere 130% strength, then your weapon is highly effective without closing any gaps.

I love when people bring up a lot off stuff that does not really adress anything brought up. Nothing you brought up adress the simple equation changes anything. Let's just call any dps multiple that only affects melee dps z , any dps that only affects guns g , and changes that affect both k multiplier.

Any changes on k will just change the level the breaking point off equilibrium.

Any changes to z just makes the lvl of equilibrium lower and increases the difference at the higher end

Any changes to g either changes the level of equilibrium or makes melee useless. 

Literally everything you describe can't make melee and weapons viable on the same mission. You will either choose 1 or thr other for the entire mission and as is melee has more potential.

Edited by keikogi
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11 minutes ago, keikogi said:

I love when people bring up a lot off stuff that does not really adress anything brought up. Nothing you brought up adress the simple equation changes anything. Let's just call any dps multiple that only affects melee dps z , any dps that only affects guns g , and changes that affect both k multiplier.

Any changes on k will just change the level the breaking point off equilibrium.

Any changes to z just makes the lvl of equilibrium lower and increases the difference at the higher end

Any changes to g either changes the level of equilibrium or makes melee useless. 

Literally everything you describe can't make melee and weapons viable on the same mission. You will either choose 1 or thr other for the entire mission and as is melee has more potential.

Once again: you don't decide how others play....you have no idea if I'm using one weapon or all 3....how do you know I'm "either choosing 1 or the other for the entire mission"? You're literally telling me I'm only using 1 weapon, correct? 

I can already sit 20m away with an aoe gun and kill everything. 

Does this mean we need to buff melee and its range? No, it means there are different tools for different scenarios and playstyles.

If I'm using holster speed mods with weapon arcanes and Vigorous Swap.....how am I only choosing 1 weapon if I'm literally rapidly switching between all 3? How? Are you watching me or something? 

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26 minutes ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

Once again: you don't decide how others play....you have no idea if I'm using one weapon or all 3....how do you know I'm "either choosing 1 or the other for the entire mission"? You're literally telling me I'm only using 1 weapon, correct? 

I can already sit 20m away with an aoe gun and kill everything. 

Does this mean we need to buff melee and its range? No, it means there are different tools for different scenarios and playstyles.

If I'm using holster speed mods with weapon arcanes and Vigorous Swap.....how am I only choosing 1 weapon if I'm literally rapidly switching between all 3? How? Are you watching me or something? 

You can play as inefficiently as you like. 

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