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Ranged Weapons and Melee weapons should rely on each other for maximum effectiveness.


keikogi

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On 2021-02-17 at 9:32 PM, keikogi said:

The problem come dows to time to gap is a fixed ammount but the ttk increases with level.

It's not just that; ease of use is a factor too.

With melee, it's only necessary to be in range and hammer the button. The player is free to look to the sides of the screen or even glance at the mini-map to see where the next enemies are, without losing any damage on the mooks they're currently hitting.

With (non-AoE) firearms, the player must keep their attention fully on the enemy to get the kill. If you look away from the target you likely miss and do no damage at all.

This gives melee an efficiency advantage independent of the comparative TtK.

On 2021-02-18 at 3:24 PM, keikogi said:

I think they just need a massive base incrase , melee 3.0 gave like 3 to 4 times damage boosts to melee weapons

I think so, because to me the balance between roughly equal-tiered firearms and melee felt about right before, and now it doesn't.

Though when I started playing (Jan 2018), the low-level enemies weren't awfully impressive... with buffed weapons across the board and Shield-gating+invulnerability, I'd raise the question of how far into a looter-shooter a player should be allowed to go before they start to feel the need for any upgrades! 😆

I seriously think if firearms are buffed to catch up with melee, the enemy eHP scaling will need some adjustment (at least at the lower end) or new players coming to the game won't be able to take it seriously at all. ☹️

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55 minutes ago, OmegaVoid said:

It's not just that; ease of use is a factor too.

With melee, it's only necessary to be in range and hammer the button. The player is free to look to the sides of the screen or even glance at the mini-map to see where the next enemies are, without losing any damage on the mooks they're currently hitting.

With (non-AoE) firearms, the player must keep their attention fully on the enemy to get the kill. If you look away from the target you likely miss and do no damage at all.

This gives melee an efficiency advantage independent of the comparative TtK.

Risk assessiment was part off the equation but enemies die so fast to it and the blender has so much reach that the risk is enterely negated 

56 minutes ago, OmegaVoid said:

I think so, because to me the balance between roughly equal-tiered firearms and melee felt about right before, and now it doesn't.

Though when I started playing (Jan 2018), the low-level enemies weren't awfully impressive... with buffed weapons across the board and Shield-gating+invulnerability, I'd raise the question of how far into a looter-shooter a player should be allowed to go before they start to feel the need for any upgrades! 😆

I seriously think if firearms are buffed to catch up with melee, the enemy eHP scaling will need some adjustment (at least at the lower end) or new players coming to the game won't be able to take it seriously at all. ☹️

I´ve been in warframe for a while , melee was the useless bunch for quite a while ,trust me, melee weapons were in similar or worse situation than ranged weapons are now, for a good chunk of the game´s life a melee weapon was judged by how good it was at zoren coptering. Ranged weapons are on a similar position because they are judge on the standars off how good they are at trash disposal or status set up , single target weapons pretty much suck by default. 

About escaling and damage, well I think warframe needs a lot of changes to its damge system , damage types , weapon switch speed , status , critical damage and rebalancing ( enemies x dps and melee x ranged) but here Im only trying to adress melee vs ranged.

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2 hours ago, keikogi said:

Risk assessiment was part off the equation but enemies die so fast to it and the blender has so much reach that the risk is enterely negated 

I didn't speak of risk, only ease of use.

But the risk is higher with the shooter anyway! The melee player in Warframe has to pay far less attention to the target, so they can keep one eye on the wider situation without losing DPS. The shooter can't keep a good lookout for being outflanked and still land a shot.

Not to mention when you're hitting an enemy with your melee, they just stand there going "ouch, ouch, ouch", they aren't able to hit you back. The other enemies won't shoot at you unless they can get a clear shot... though that works with ranged weapons too if you're proccing Heat, and nowadays who isn't?

(And with the current state of enemy accuracy, risk isn't what it used to be.)

2 hours ago, keikogi said:

melee weapons were in similar or worse situation than ranged weapons are now, for a good chunk of the game´s life

I'd heard that was previously the case but, by the time I started playing, my experience was that killing things with melee or shooting them both seemed reasonable options. I don't think my early loadouts were highly unbalanced:

Strun + Furis + Heat Sword
Vulkar + Twin Grakatas + Dual Zoren
Kohm + Atomos + Orthos
Buzlok + Stubba + Twin Basolk (by this point things were fully-modded)

Nowadays I'm pairing above-average firearms like Dex Furis and Quellor with low-tier melee like Serro and Ack & Brunt to achieve some reasonable parity in usefulness. It looks to me like they got it pretty well evened-up... then knocked it out of whack again. I guess they didn't want to risk the melee rework being perceived as a melee nerf. 😕

2 hours ago, keikogi said:

I think warframe needs a lot of changes to its damge system , damage types , weapon switch speed , status , critical damage and rebalancing ( enemies x dps and melee x ranged) but here Im only trying to adress melee vs ranged.

Well, I think the weapon-swap speed is fine! 😄 (Personally I'd say reworking/replacing the Star Chart to be better suited to player power levels is the most needed thing.)

The damage system could stand some tweaking, though any big changes to the basic damage system would necessitate re-balancing everything anyway... so if that's on the cards evening-out melee and ranged weapons would sensibly be left 'til after.

On topic: you haven't convinced me that melee in Warframe to be relevant needs better DPS than ranged.

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4 hours ago, OmegaVoid said:

On topic: you haven't convinced me that melee in Warframe to be relevant needs better DPS than ranged

Because my own opinion on the matter changed that's why I did not bother myself with it too much. So I kind off did not bother to touch on it that much.

My real problem with the system is not melee dps > ranged dps , my problem is if either the right click button is useless or the e button is useless.

The very nature off buff stacking and especilist nature off a lot off warframe will make it so at any given mission one off tham will be useless as far as damage is concerned. 3 basic examples: if you are playing Inaros is unlikely that a ranged weapons will be that useful ( as far as damage is concerned) because he has a blind massively increasing his melee dps. If you are playing Mesa,  it's unlikely that a melee weapon can hope to beat peace maker ttk ( time to kill ) ( there is chance given a Hight enough level the melee weapon can surpass the effective dps , but hey that's not happening on any reasonable level ). Same goes for arcanes enchantment and warffsme mods,  they can make a build have more " effective " melee mods or ranged , making it so a given mission on off play styles will be favored.

That's why I did not even touch on the topic anymore because my own vision off the real problem changed. I still think ranged weapons have low dps compared melee ones however,  for the problem off lack off reason to use combined arms ( what I truly trying to adress ) , changes on damage are not going to fix it because off the inherent desing off alot off warframes and the natural incentives to buff stacking.

4 hours ago, OmegaVoid said:

Well, I think the weapon-swap speed is fine! 😄 (Personally I'd say reworking/replacing the Star Chart to be better suited to player power levels is the most needed thing.)

You probably have been playing solo or In really good host. Weapon swap is a host based action so it can take as long as the internet feels like it. On top off that it lack consistency because from a primary to melee there no switch time but the warframe feels clumsy boy when he is switching weapons.

4 hours ago, OmegaVoid said:

started playing, my experience was that killing things with melee or shooting them both seemed reasonable options. I don't think my early loadouts were highly unbalanced:

Strun + Furis + Heat Sword
Vulkar + Twin Grakatas + Dual Zoren
Kohm + Atomos + Orthos
Buzlok + Stubba + Twin Basolk (by this point things were fully-modded)

Because the diferent is not made by the weapons themselves,  the craziness lies into conditions overload,  blood rush , weeping wounds and that ammount of guarantee slash procs on stances and charge attacks. So early on the game the difference does not feel that big.

4 hours ago, OmegaVoid said:

The damage system could stand some tweaking, though any big changes to the basic damage system would necessitate re-balancing everything anyway... so if that's on the cards evening-out melee and ranged weapons would sensibly be left 'til after.

There are quite a few core flaws I can cite on top off my head

There are like 16 damage types and like 3 are used consistently.

Some status depend on number of procs , others on the damage behind the proc. This lends itself to  situations where Hight roof weapons are inherent favored by the damage system ( doing 10 instances of 10 damage is way better than doing 1 instance off 100 ). 

Enemies have no status resistance stat , so the only way a enemy can resist a status is being immune to it ( with leads itself to the situation off why bother with status if status imunity is becoming rampant ( deimos blanket viral imunity  for example ) )

 

Going back to the topic at hand. I'm changing my approach to the problem.

First , buff across the board to ranged damage.

Second, Melee weapons will receive a bunch off mods to support a mostly ranged play styles a few examples 

Somerhing like executors blade - reduces weapons damage by 50% , executes enemies on hit if they are below 50% hp. Disarming whip ( whip only ) - disarms enemy on hit. Riot shield ( sword and shields ) - gives you damage reduction to shots in you block angle while using secondary,  replaces quick melee with shield bash. Sharpening sheet ( nikana) - gains % damage while holdetered , looses % damage on hit ( so it has remarkable brust but bad dps ). Wind edge - massive range increase , reduced damage.  Kineck Gloves ( sparing ) - stores the knect energy from the recoil off your guns ( reduces recoild ) , tham releases it on all mighty punhc ( deals increased damage and creates a shock wave off energy )

Third , decoupling combo from melee. Both melee and ranged weapon will build combo. Reworking off charge attack and moving charge attacs mod to the new spirit system 

Forth , equality off mod slots ( stances for ranged weapons and exilus for melee ). Stances on ranged weapons will dictate their behavior during the spirit mode.

Fith spirit mode. Consumes the combo counter for a buff ( depends on the spirit equipped) and mods equipped on the spirit ( spirit has limited mod slot , just e like the parazom ) 

At last , spirits will behave as companions while in operator mode.

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7 hours ago, keikogi said:

Because the diferent is not made by the weapons themselves,  the craziness lies into conditions overload,  blood rush , weeping wounds and that ammount of guarantee slash procs on stances and charge attacks. So early on the game the difference does not feel that big.

A couple of years ago the difference wasn't made by the weapons themselves -- but it now is.

I've spent a little time in the past couple of days using unmodded Mk-1 Braton, Lato and Skana.

In Simulacrum with lvl.6 & lvl.9 enemies (enemies not paused, so no Stealth bonus to melee) the Skana kills very much faster than the Braton, on both Corpus and Grineer. It's not something a new player can fail to spot.

I ran some low-level Exterminate missions to see what it looks like in-game, and firearms only had any advantage for Ospreys and Security Cameras or Regulators and Sensor Bars. Especially now that Ground-Slams are directional giving über-fast gap closing, it will be very obvious right from the start of the game that meleeeeeeeeeeeeeeee is far more effective.

The imbalance is in the base stats -- CO, BR, WW, and Stances don't cause the issue, they only exacerbate it.

It follows that if similar mods were made for ranged weapons, by the time the player can acquire them they will aready have learned that firearms (apart from a few specific weapons for a few specific bosses) are largely not worth investing in.

7 hours ago, keikogi said:

First , buff across the board to ranged damage.

^^So yes, definitely this!!!

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12 minutes ago, OmegaVoid said:

couple of years ago the difference wasn't made by the weapons themselves -- but it now is.

I've spent a little time in the past couple of days using unmodded Mk-1 Braton, Lato and Skana.

In Simulacrum with lvl.6 & lvl.9 enemies (enemies not paused, so no Stealth bonus to melee) the Skana kills very much faster than the Braton, on both Corpus and Grineer. It's not something a new player can fail to

Idk if I already mentioned to you but the melee rework gave melee weapons buffs across the board to the point exalted weapons have a hard time competing with them. This is the buff skana received 

Update 26.0

Damage increased from 35 to 120.

Range increased from 1 to 2.5.

Status Chance increased from 10% to 16%.

Slam Attack increased from 70 to 360.

Slide Attack increased from 75 to 120.

Parry Angle set to 55

 

See there are no fancy status buff of crit buff , just a massive damage increase. This buff were intent to off set the ners to CO and blood rush. Co used to scale exponentially and bloodrush had a funny with meming strike. But I don't think they hit the mark with the changes at all. In fact I think melee is even more linear now than it was before the changes.

Edit: there is a status change but it's not the culprit here 

 

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50 minutes ago, keikogi said:

This buff were intent to off set the ners to CO and blood rush. [...] But I don't think they hit the mark with the changes at all.

True dat! 😂

I think feedback the devs get from these forums/reddit/etc. is mainly driven by longtime players; it's heavily weighted to consider advanced players' usage of late-game Mods.

If the devs lean heavily on that feedback to drive changes, it probably explains why the early game looks so squiffy now.

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On 2021-02-16 at 2:54 PM, keikogi said:

Give one off them limited uses (make gun better but make armor scarce)

I offered this one in my post. You don't have to be that much of a genius to know where I come from. Guns and melees are pretty much even when it comes to availability, but guns have the innate advantage of having ranged DPS, therefore you can't just make their DPS equal to each other. 

So I offered the solution of making guns just straight up better for damage, at the cost of having less ammo efficiency/ammo availability. But guess what? the fanbase wants a miracle, not a solution, they don't want to sacrifice ANYTHING.

So I just gave up.

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On 2021-02-16 at 11:54 AM, keikogi said:

Devil trigger will give melee multshot (after image attacking), close range teleport ( aw melee teleport on the ground ) , full frontal deflection (defects hits on the front without animation lock, a after image will perform the deflection/parry ). Duration based on the ranged combo count.

You convinced me in the close range teleport already. Nice suggestion

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5 hours ago, (XBOX)GodMasterTP said:

are pretty much even when it comes to availability, but guns have the innate advantage of having ranged DPS, therefore you can't just make their DPS equal to each other. 

So I offered the solution of making guns just straight up better for damage, at the cost of having less ammo efficiency/ammo availability.

I kind off think either melee or ranged will have to take the second place on dps because off the very nature off buff stacking in warframe leading to expecialization. And I do agree with you guns should pack enough off punch to justify aiming requirements.  But if the rework either shafts melee or ranged it will cause an up roar.

So I think I found the solution , mods and weapon switch speed.

Create mods that buff melee weapons for ranged users for example 

Sharpening sheet ( nikana ) - increases melee damage per second holstered,  looses damage per hit 

Making niknas as amazing option for quick  brust 

Kineck dampers ( gauntlet) - reduces primary and secondary recoil. Increases damage and gives a blast effect for the next .elee hit

Executioner axe ( heavy blade ) - reduces damages , hits execute enemies below 35% health 

Disarming wip - disarms enemies on hit

There a bunch more In progress on my revised version off this post and on comments here but you catch my drift 

Same goes to ranged weapons supporting melee

Super Magnetic- + magnetix damage , bullets jumps faster towards enemies with magnetix proc 

Mark prey ( bow ) - increases damage towards the target , on head shot gains life steal against the target 

 

Remove weapon switch speed al people can combo utility mods to theirs hearts content and voala people will combo weapons increasing the skill cap in warframe.

 

There a bunch off stuff coming on the new post that will be ready by the weekend or next weekend 

 

The devil trigger idea will be somewhat based on nioh living weapons.

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19 hours ago, (PSN)haphazardlynamed said:

Doom Eternal: guns vs melee vs health rotating mechanic

It's similar to the 2016 Doom mechanics? A great game, but I don't see it as a good combat model for Warframe.

The Doom mechanic of shooting the enemy almost to death from a safer distance, then closing in for the piñata moment works firstly because the enemies hit-points are balanced for the player's damage output. In Warframe, that's just not possible. Think of how difficult it can be to get a Mercy finisher on a regular enemy outside of Steel Path.

And secondly Doom is a single-player campaign. Imagine badly needing some Health and shooting a Manucubus 'til it's open to the Glory Kill -- then having another player jump in and finish it off, stealing all the drops! Public matchmaking can be a bit like that in Warframe already. 😆

Plus, forcing Health drops on melee kill would kind of undermine lifesteal upgrades like Life Strike, Healing Return, Winds of Purity, etc. I don't think it's good for a looter-shooter to change base mechanics to make farmable stuff less useful.

And of the Doom fans who didn't like Eternal as much as the 2016 game, the main criticism I've seen was that it forced weapon rotation too much. I feel it's a strength of Warframe that it can be a shooter, a musō, or an "action RPG" or a mix of all three, depending on how the player chooses to approach it.

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