A rework for Grasp of Lohk to actually let its range be buffed.

[Mu_Gera]

On 2021-02-20 at 10:39 PM, (XBOX)GearsMatrix301 said:

No absolutely not. Giving it a status chance would absolutely ruin the ability. You’re literally turning it into an ability that will randomly apply a vacuum bubble that will interfere with getting headshots.

yeah I'm also 50/50 on it proc'ing void status but everything else still stands

[quxier]

8 hours ago, (XBOX)GearsMatrix301 said:

When there are frames that require 2x less strength investment than Xaku to do what Game does, but better. Thats means Xaku got the short end of the stick.

Ok, but you can put 2 Gazes with 100% strength and cast VU from time to time. Ever frame has pros & cons.

8 hours ago, (XBOX)GearsMatrix301 said:

The ability to mod does not justify garbage base stats. Because base stats determine how much of a stat you have to invest into to make the ability go from garbage to usable. And if every aspect of an ability requires high investment, like Xaku requiring 200% range and strength for her abilities to perform at an acceptable rate, then you just have a frame who’s inconvenient to use. As then you’re forced to deal with annoyances from the build that just hurt the frame. Like the fact that Xaku is a caster frame who needs such high strength invest she has to use Blind rage, and that massively limits how much she can use her abilities. I should not be spending over 100 energy for a narrow energy beam.

The frame required a lot of forma (2 umbras). This way you can build for 200% strength without sacrificing a lot (I want health so...). And as you don't really need too much duration then something ~100% should be ok.

I'm not using void beams and  I rarely use other 2 abilities from 3rd slot. However Gaze is on duration so... yeah.

Going back to Range:

In my opinion only GoL & Accuse needs range.

For me GoL is more for disarming than "auto bot". With 200% range and Gaze around you just melt everything. I don't think it's "acceptable rate". Sure, some range buff would be nice... but not 100% more.

For Accuse number of enemies may double (6->12) that's changes a lot. You cannot recast at "full squad" so if you are using this ability then range IS important.

4 hours ago, (XBOX)GearsMatrix301 said:

I mean technically it’s easy to put just about any build together. But the result of that build is just a weird, clunky mess that feels more punishing to play than anything else.

The Strength/Duration/Range builds that use Gaze and GoL will just melt everything. It's not clunky mess... it's just very boring style.

 

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

32 minutes ago, quxier said:

Ok, but you can put 2 Gazes with 100% strength and cast VU from time to time. Ever frame has pros & cons.

The frame required a lot of forma (2 umbras). This way you can build for 200% strength without sacrificing a lot (I want health so...). And as you don't really need too much duration then something ~100% should be ok.

I'm not using void beams and  I rarely use other 2 abilities from 3rd slot. However Gaze is on duration so... yeah.

Going back to Range:

In my opinion only GoL & Accuse needs range.

For me GoL is more for disarming than "auto bot". With 200% range and Gaze around you just melt everything. I don't think it's "acceptable rate". Sure, some range buff would be nice... but not 100% more.

For Accuse number of enemies may double (6->12) that's changes a lot. You cannot recast at "full squad" so if you are using this ability then range IS important.

The Strength/Duration/Range builds that use Gaze and GoL will just melt everything. It's not clunky mess... it's just very boring style.

 

Do Gaze effects stack? If they do the cast animation alone makes that inefficient. Also IDK what VU time stopping has to do with anything. Like infinite duration means literally nothing if the abilities it’s affecting aren’t good.

Oh trust me I don’t want a massive buff to the range. Maybe just 2 or 3 more meters at base.

It’s pretty clunky. It’s also massively inefficient as you spend close to like 300 energy for that combo alone. When literally every other frame that does things similar to that does it far faster and far more efficiently. There’s nothing appealing about a frame that’s like “hey, I can do what these frame do, but I require far more energy to do it all worse”.

[(XBOX)Ampathetiic]

As was stated before, the reason Gaze and Grasp of Lohk have low base stats is because of how these abilities interact within the context of Xaku. The reason Ash, Nyx, Ember, or Grendel can reach 100% armor strip with less modding is that the way the armor strip works within the kit doesn't cause problems for the game's balance. Grendel and Ember takes time and massive energy drain for multiple targets, Ash needs an augment and is only limited to two targets per cast, and Nyx has no ability to exploit the defense strip.

Gaze requires high investment to fully strip because the ability affects every enemy in the area, has infinite duration due to VU, and allows the removal of the one thing that prevents GoL from tearing through everything.

[quxier]

3 hours ago, (XBOX)GearsMatrix301 said:

Do Gaze effects stack?

Ah, yeah but for something, afair, SP level you need full 100% as armor is huge, so even 1% might hurt you (that's what I heard).

3 hours ago, (XBOX)GearsMatrix301 said:

It’s also massively inefficient as you spend close to like 300 energy for that combo alone. When literally every other frame that does things similar to that does it far faster and far more efficiently. There’s nothing appealing about a frame that’s like “hey, I can do what these frame do, but I require far more energy to do it all worse”.

It's not meant for single cast. You want abilities active all the time. If you put 1st + 2nd + 2x Gaze + 1 Accuse then it takes 300 energy. Add 1 Vast untime and it's 400. That's a lot. However 2nd cast decrease energy consumption to 250. Here first column is number of VU cast & 2nd is energy consumption:

Quote

1	400
2	250
3	200
4	175
5	160
6	150
7	142,8571428571
8	137,5
9	133,3333333333
10	130

And you just need to cast one ability not 5 (in my example) so it's QOL thing as well.

ps. of course I'm not counting time of certain abilities (e.g. 1st has high duration so you don't have to use it a lot).

 

Of course you may play without 3rd... your "disarming part" suggestion would help a lot!

 

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

3 hours ago, quxier said:

Ah, yeah but for something, afair, SP level you need full 100% as armor is huge, so even 1% might hurt you (that's what I heard).

It's not meant for single cast. You want abilities active all the time. If you put 1st + 2nd + 2x Gaze + 1 Accuse then it takes 300 energy. Add 1 Vast untime and it's 400. That's a lot. However 2nd cast decrease energy consumption to 250. Here first column is number of VU cast & 2nd is energy consumption:

And you just need to cast one ability not 5 (in my example) so it's QOL thing as well.

ps. of course I'm not counting time of certain abilities (e.g. 1st has high duration so you don't have to use it a lot).

 

Of course you may play without 3rd... your "disarming part" suggestion would help a lot!

 

that’s exactly the problem. Xakus abilities aren’t meant to only be cast every once in awhile. Xakus a caster frame so that means continuous use of her abilities. That’s not viable when the main setup consumes 3/5 of your energy pool. 

250 energy isn’t any better.

 

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

5 hours ago, (XBOX)Regxxh said:

As was stated before, the reason Gaze and Grasp of Lohk have low base stats is because of how these abilities interact within the context of Xaku. The reason Ash, Nyx, Ember, or Grendel can reach 100% armor strip with less modding is that the way the armor strip works within the kit doesn't cause problems for the game's balance. Grendel and Ember takes time and massive energy drain for multiple targets, Ash needs an augment and is only limited to two targets per cast, and Nyx has no ability to exploit the defense strip.

Gaze requires high investment to fully strip because the ability affects every enemy in the area, has infinite duration due to VU, and allows the removal of the one thing that prevents GoL from tearing through everything.

Gaze has a slow cast animation, an ok range, needs to be cast on an enemy That then has to not die during the extremely long cast animation, and is completely stationary. Ember and Gauss require no strength investment and can 100% strip on the move. Not to mention Embers drain isn’t bad if you know what your doing. Grendels drain can be punishing, but knowing the time it takes for your build to completely strip the enemies armor can minimize the cost, also the toxin proc ends up killing the enemy anyways so that opens up the chance for energy orbs. Psychic bolts is a meh armor strip but even still it’s investment requirement is low so that automatically just makes it better than Gaze.
So don’t give me that “it’s for balance reasons” nonsense, because Gaze is such a restrictive move there is no justification for its modding requirements to be so demanding when all these other options have far less restrictions and require far less investment. No amount of infinite duration justifies that either. Because again, the armor strip AOE is completely stationary, and Xaku has no way of moving enemies around so you have an armor strip that’s only effective until all the enemies around it are dead, and unless it’s a guaranteed choke point in a defense or interception the spot is useless. Compare that to Gauss who can create a 100% strip AOE on command on his location at any time. There’s no point in an infinite duration if you’re constantly forced to recast the ability in new locations.

 

[quxier]

14 hours ago, (XBOX)GearsMatrix301 said:

that’s exactly the problem. Xakus abilities aren’t meant to only be cast every once in awhile. Xakus a caster frame so that means continuous use of her abilities. That’s not viable when the main setup consumes 3/5 of your energy pool. 

250 energy isn’t any better.

 

And that's what they do. However you have do it differently (You could spam 2nd if you go low duration). You invest some energy and just use VU every 30 second. When you spend more time you get less energy per ability. Go for defense 20 waves.

If you don't want to sit in one place (exterminate or something) then YES. You won't get that much from VU gimmick. I mostly use 1&2 and rarely 3rd (it's cumbersome). I even changed 3rd for other abilities.

ps. Void beam ability isn't cheap.

 

 

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

19 hours ago, quxier said:

And that's what they do. However you have do it differently (You could spam 2nd if you go low duration). You invest some energy and just use VU every 30 second. When you spend more time you get less energy per ability. Go for defense 20 waves.

If you don't want to sit in one place (exterminate or something) then YES. You won't get that much from VU gimmick. I mostly use 1&2 and rarely 3rd (it's cumbersome). I even changed 3rd for other abilities.

ps. Void beam ability isn't cheap.

 

 

I drain my entire energy pool from casting 6 abilities. That’s not “being able to continuously cast abilities”. I can accept Grasp not being like that. But The Lost effectively wants you to be switching through its different effects and casting what you need when you need. You can’t do that when you’re constantly hemorrhaging energy.

[quxier]

7 hours ago, (XBOX)GearsMatrix301 said:

I drain my entire energy pool from casting 6 abilities. That’s not “being able to continuously cast abilities”. I can accept Grasp not being like that. But The Lost effectively wants you to be switching through its different effects and casting what you need when you need. You can’t do that when you’re constantly hemorrhaging energy.

Well, I can cast it 4 times.

The lost wants you to:

- put 2 Gaze

- Grab maximum number of enemies

- Don't use Void beam (as I said probably)

 

The only problem is Accused enemies can die by your hand. I rarely used it - just from time to time to take a breath. If you can keep them alive then you don't have to cast it too often. However that's just problem with ability not energy pool.

If you take into consideration all this things you can use this frame. If you cannot accept it... then you know, you can post suggestion. I have read a lot about those abilities and their suggestion but the issue weren't fixed.

[LagartoPunkarra]

On 2021-02-17 at 4:28 PM, (XBOX)GearsMatrix301 said:

Only have the guns shoot at enemies when Xaku is attacking.

And in return the range gets buffed and we can recast at max guns again.

That would defeat the porpouse of the ability.

1st: Adding more range would just mean that this would be stronger, and there's a point where DE would have to nerf the damage output to a pea shooter.

2nd: If the guns only shoot at enemies when Xaku is attacking then it would remove the passive defensive properties of the ability.

3rd: If you want a Warframe that has an ability that shoots at long range, with autoaim and only fires when you fire, then play Mesa.

[LagartoPunkarra]

On 2021-02-23 at 4:36 AM, (XBOX)GearsMatrix301 said:

that’s exactly the problem. Xakus abilities aren’t meant to only be cast every once in awhile. Xakus a caster frame so that means continuous use of her abilities. That’s not viable when the main setup consumes 3/5 of your energy pool. 

250 energy isn’t any better.

 

You set up its 3 first abilities and then the only ability you need to cast next is The Vast Untime. And if you run them with some decent duration then you get time where their first 3 abilities gets their duration counter literally frozen.

So having high energy costs at first for then literally being one of the most energy efficient Warframes it's reasonable.

[quxier]

8 hours ago, ElecDeathblade said:

2nd: If the guns only shoot at enemies when Xaku is attacking then it would remove the passive defensive properties of the ability.

No. It will just make you actually play a game. Take Wukong for example. If you don't do anything then your clone won't attack.

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

12 hours ago, ElecDeathblade said:

That would defeat the porpouse of the ability.

1st: Adding more range would just mean that this would be stronger, and there's a point where DE would have to nerf the damage output to a pea shooter.

2nd: If the guns only shoot at enemies when Xaku is attacking then it would remove the passive defensive properties of the ability.

3rd: If you want a Warframe that has an ability that shoots at long range, with autoaim and only fires when you fire, then play Mesa.

No, restricting it to attacking only when Xaku attacks means it requires an extra level of player interaction. So there should be no nerf to the damage in the case of buffing the range.

The only real passive defense of the ability is The initial cast with disarming enemies.

I’m just trying to find a good compromise for DE to actually buff the range of the ability.

Seriously, of all the criticisms my idea is open to you sure found some really bizarre ones.

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

3 hours ago, quxier said:

No. It will just make you actually play a game. Take Wukong for example. If you don't do anything then your clone won't attack.

Ok maybe not apply this to Wukong. Wuclone is a minion, Xakus void guns are not.

[quxier]

On 2021-02-25 at 4:29 PM, (XBOX)GearsMatrix301 said:

Ok maybe not apply this to Wukong. Wuclone is a minion, Xakus void guns are not.

I mean Wukong has it ALREADY. If you don't attack your Wukong clone won't attack either.

... unless I misunderstood you.

[LagartoPunkarra]

On 2021-02-25 at 4:27 PM, (XBOX)GearsMatrix301 said:

No, restricting it to attacking only when Xaku attacks means it requires an extra level of player interaction. So there should be no nerf to the damage in the case of buffing the range.

The only real passive defense of the ability is The initial cast with disarming enemies.

I’m just trying to find a good compromise for DE to actually buff the range of the ability.

Seriously, of all the criticisms my idea is open to you sure found some really bizarre ones.

I then suggest a different approach to the ability: They act like the weapon you shoot. That way you can have all the range you want as long as that weapon has the range, and have an extra player interactivity with them.

This would be a glorified multishot? Yes, because that's what you're asking, as if the copied weapons shoot only when you attack then I assume you mean they attack at the enemy you want to attack.

I still find buffing the range and making them not shoot automatically pointless. I see them as Protea's Artillery Guns when you don't use The Vast Untime, a short duration, medium ranged automatic weapon that deals quick bursts of damage. They have more duration than Protea's Artillery Guns, but they do less damage as the Artillery Guns proc Heat status to enemies and each shot has a damage multiplier, while Grasp of Lohk only does Void damage without any procs.

[LagartoPunkarra]

On 2021-02-25 at 12:48 PM, quxier said:

No. It will just make you actually play a game. Take Wukong for example. If you don't do anything then your clone won't attack.

Yes, Wukong has a Inactivity Penalty on his clone that makes him stop attacking, as well as Excalibur Umbra and Sentinels, but that's something in the entire game that if you're inactive for 2 minutes you don't get rewards.

Also, if your issue is an ability that makes you need to press the minimum keys, then there's a lot more Warframe that are worse than Xaku. One is Octavia, that you cast her abilities, crouch and just enjoy all the enemies dying without you doing anything.

[quxier]

6 minutes ago, ElecDeathblade said:

Yes, Wukong has a Inactivity Penalty on his clone that makes him stop attacking, as well as Excalibur Umbra and Sentinels, but that's something in the entire game that if you're inactive for 2 minutes you don't get rewards.

Also, if your issue is an ability that makes you need to press the minimum keys, then there's a lot more Warframe that are worse than Xaku. One is Octavia, that you cast her abilities, crouch and just enjoy all the enemies dying without you doing anything.

Octavia, in my opinion, has other problems as well but that's not the topic of this thread.

That doesn't mean that Xaku should have AFK style as well.

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

1 hour ago, ElecDeathblade said:

I then suggest a different approach to the ability: They act like the weapon you shoot. That way you can have all the range you want as long as that weapon has the range, and have an extra player interactivity with them.

This would be a glorified multishot? Yes, because that's what you're asking, as if the copied weapons shoot only when you attack then I assume you mean they attack at the enemy you want to attack.

I still find buffing the range and making them not shoot automatically pointless. I see them as Protea's Artillery Guns when you don't use The Vast Untime, a short duration, medium ranged automatic weapon that deals quick bursts of damage. They have more duration than Protea's Artillery Guns, but they do less damage as the Artillery Guns proc Heat status to enemies and each shot has a damage multiplier, while Grasp of Lohk only does Void damage without any procs.

You realize what you’re suggesting is pretty much exactly what I’m doing. You want the guns to act like the gun we’re shooting. I’m making the guns only attack as they normally would when Xaku is attacking. 

[LagartoPunkarra]

20 hours ago, quxier said:

Octavia, in my opinion, has other problems as well but that's not the topic of this thread.

That doesn't mean that Xaku should have AFK style as well.

Like I said, their abilities prevents being AFK, because:

- The max duration of Grasp of Lohk isn't enough

- The energy that they need prevents staying in one place doing nothing

- They can get down easily by high level enemies if not paying attention

If you think Grasp of Lohk is an AFK ability, then I have to tell you that it sucks as an AFK ability.

[LagartoPunkarra]

23 hours ago, (XBOX)GearsMatrix301 said:

You realize what you’re suggesting is pretty much exactly what I’m doing. You want the guns to act like the gun we’re shooting. I’m making the guns only attack as they normally would when Xaku is attacking. 

I actually don't want a change to the ability, I find it works great to control melee and short to mid range enemies while I shoot down enemies that are further away.

[quxier]

10 hours ago, ElecDeathblade said:

- The max duration of Grasp of Lohk isn't enough

12 + 25 seconds unmoded. That's 37seconds. And you have to click it every 25th second. That's basically few minutes (taking into account that you activate VU every ~2 seconds) of "free guns".

10 hours ago, ElecDeathblade said:

- The energy that they need prevents staying in one place doing nothing

It depends on tileset and game type. For example new Corpus Tileset has so low spawns that you could barely activate few abilities without any help (no Pizza, Zenurik etc). But if you have some help or enemies' spawn is fine then... energy is not a problem.

10 hours ago, ElecDeathblade said:

- They can get down easily by high level enemies if not paying attention

Sure, high level enemies can sneeze at you... but you have other things that makes you invulnerable. I don't know if it works but "on paper" Sly Vulpaphyla + Vast untime + probably other mods would give you pretty good survivality.

10 hours ago, ElecDeathblade said:

If you think Grasp of Lohk is an AFK ability, then I have to tell you that it sucks as an AFK ability.

I'm not good with "hard content" so I've checked other people.

 

[LagartoPunkarra]

10 hours ago, quxier said:

I'm not good with "hard content" so I've checked other people.

 

Yeah, it's a good build, but not good for being AFK, you still have to play the game

[quxier]

1 hour ago, ElecDeathblade said:

Yeah, it's a good build, but not good for being AFK, you still have to play the game

But look how much he has to do. Cast Spectrorage (or whatever it's called), some operator dash or zaw attack for pulling effect and 4th from time to time. That's it!

I and OP probably don't ask too much. Shooting or in general attacking from time to time isn't huge effort. Even for person in this video it won't change too much as he is using his Zaw/operator.