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Crit and Warframe's mess of damage multipliers


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Magnum Revolver - Aim Gliding will highlight enemy weak points within 20/30/40/50 metres and grant headshots +50/100/150/200% critical damage. Useable on the Vasto and Magnus series of weapons.

 

Edited by Teoarrk
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4 minutes ago, Teoarrk said:

Magnum Revolver - Aim Gliding will highlight enemy weak points within 20/30/40/50 metres and grant headshots +50/100/150/200% critical damage. Useable on the Vasto and Magnus series of weapons.

That also looks like a really good suggestion! Adding that to the others.

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11 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

Those look fantastic, yes! Adding those to the main post.

Those are fair points. Tempting as infinity is (and I'd still like to see how an infinite version of the above plays out), there is a risk that if players find a way to obtain free infinite crits (and given how much stuff goes on in Warframe, that's a definite possibility), they might go off the rails with those scalings.

Wanting to understand a game isn't being devoid of self-sufficiency or resourcefulness, it's the opposite. You seem to be under the impression that admitting ignorance and wanting to learn are weaknesses, rather than strengths, a toxic mentality that belies your attitude in this argument. As it stands, Warframe blatantly doesn't list many bits of vital information, in this specific instance finisher multipliers (and why they differ from animation to animation), the stealth damage multiplier and how it scales, how body part multipliers work, and how crit scales. DE has no excuse for not having their game properly teach players its mechanics, and you have no excuse arguing against improvements to the game's ability to convey vital information.

Because it's good to have more options? Why argue for less build diversity when you claimed to defend it but a few posts ago?

Wait, why would this mod be the core ability of a Warframe's kit? This is like saying Health Conversion is the core of Nekros's kit, simply because he makes use of the mod really well. I do believe that in the game's current context, free refreshable invisibility for every single warframe is in fact fine, given that it's already available to us in a multitude of ways. You appear to be severely distorting the focus on the facts here based on what ultimately seems to be only your own subjective feelings, which themselves are not only bereft of factual basis, but are contradicted by existing evidence.

Explain to me how that burden of proof works, if you please. What exact protocol are you asking me to follow here?

Mechanics and abilities are two very different things, and a warframe's core ability can have some of the same mechanics as non-core abilities, mods, and so on, as evidenced by Loki and Ivara's invisibility effects being core to their kit, yet also sharing the same invisibility effect as Arcane Trickery or the Skiajati's passive. I'm rather confused by the point you are trying to argue here, as it is not only based on what seems to be a deliberate confusion of terms, but is easily disproven by content that exists in the game already, without even needing to talk about my own suggestions.

And this is relevant... why?

Because it prevents you from losing the mission? You're going to have to explain what your line of argumentation is here, because it doesn't appear to relate at all to the topic of discussion.

Because they still have a crit chance? You do understand how crit works, right?

They literally do randomly crit. That is literally what any weapon with a nonzero crit chance does.

Literally the game? And the wiki? It appears you have severely misunderstood how crit works in Warframe, and I urge you to research it on the wiki, so that you may avoid embarrassing yourself further.

Given that the Proboscis Cernos is a fairly mediocre weapon, I don't think a 50% base crit chance would make it go off the rails, and if you doubt this, I invite you to do the math, compare with other weapons, and come back to me with your results. I can agree that DE would be unlikely to buff the weapon in that manner, though more because they're generally apathetic about balancing their content outside of massive arsenal passes or the occasional emergency hotfix, and less because they'd believe the weapon would be OP as a result. If you happen to have an insider look into DE that I'm not aware of, do let me know, but as it stands I don't think you really get to speak for the developers here, much as you appear to want to.

good-for-you.jpg

But seriously, though, bragging about how good you are at the video game isn't going to make for a convincing argument, it just looks pathetic and desperate. Even if you did figure out the entirety of Railjack on your own with no problems (and I somehow doubt that), that would not entitle you to dismiss the experience of other players who had more trouble with the mode. Your account of your own experience also does not counter the fact that the game practically hides some of the mode's core systems, such as its tactical menu, and otherwise does not employ easily implementable means of bringing those systems to the player's attention. I would recommend against continuing to argue dismissively like this in the future, as it not only fails to contribute constructively to discussion, but also just comes across as a bit gross.

If you have specific questions about the games system, then it probably makes more sense to simply ask DE.....instead of proposing a complete rework of a 7 year old games mod system, damage system, 45 frames and hundreds of weapons and combat system. 

Keep in mind it took quite some time for them to tweak a small handful of frames. I saw Ash bladestorm suggestions at the end of 2019, and those changes were implemented just a few months ago. 

To defend a game breaking mod that would give every frame consistent invisibility(completing negating what makes stealth frames special and having their own niche), you claimed players can use a skiajati and pets that can't stay alive to maintain consistent invisibility.....while also claiming that "finishers are niche multipliers that are unlikely to happen often" and that "virtually nobody builds for finishers"....The skiajati procs 5 seconds of invisibility off of finishers....so which is it? Is invisibility just so easy to maintain for every single frame or is it not? I thought you just said no one builds for finishers.... so where are all the people using the skiajati for invisibility finisher builds? Yea, it's a great one of out 100 methods to build for, using Inaros and finishers for example.....but that's one playstyle that a player has the option to use, and isn't forced on them......

 

You also claimed "it makes no immediate sense to increase crit chance beyond 100%" when this is patently false.....as one of the main objectives or goals is to achieve higher crit tiers....it literally says "When a weapon achieves a crit chance higher than 100%, every attack will crit but it also gains a chance to deal an even stronger crit. As the critical hit chance increases, the tier of critical damage does so as well."

It even has a picture of the tiered crits showing a white 5 for non crit, an 8 for a yellow crit, a 55 for an orange crit, and a 78 for a red crit. 

Now....should DE just put this in the codex so people like you have no excuse to not have the information? Yes of course, but guess what? This doesn't take an entire game wide rework.....

Should they also offer more methods to reach higher crit tiers? Sure. Off the top of my head, I think only Harrow supports the team via crits. Besides point Strike and rivens and adarza, there's not many different ways to play around with crits. This also doesn't take a game wide rework. 

I have to go do some real life stuff so I'll have to come back later to address the rest of the points. 

The main issue is that your rework is completely unnecessary and simplifies the game way too much. The game already caters to casual players enough, and only small tweaks are needed to further handhold the ones truly incapable of reading a website in the 21st century. For the sake of argument I'll just pretend literally no one reads anything on the internet at all, to make it seem more realistic that people shouldn't have to occasionally read websites for a game. 

 

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10 hours ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

If you have specific questions about the games system, then it probably makes more sense to simply ask DE.....instead of proposing a complete rework of a 7 year old games mod system, damage system, 45 frames and hundreds of weapons and combat system. 

That actually sounds like a brilliant idea! If you have the personal contact information of the DE employee responsible for personally taking in the suggestions of the Warframe playerbase, do share and I'll be happy to send them my ideas.

... but sarcasm aside, you really, really don't seem to understand the place you're in. Allow me to remind you: you are in the Warframe feedback forums, the designated place where players give feedback on Warframe, getting offended about players posting feedback. I am already asking DE in the proper manner, and your opposition to this basic act across the many threads you've commented on shows just how little you belong in this kind of space and conversation with that kind of attitude. I am allowed to post whichever feedback and suggestions I like, including systemic reworks (which would be by no means the largest DE would've implemented in-game on multiple occasions), and while you can dislike my ideas freely, you do not get to oppose the act of giving feedback itself. If you think you do, I would recommend you first take a break from posting, and ask yourself if trying to shut down discussion on a game's feedback space is truly productive behavior.

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Keep in mind it took quite some time for them to tweak a small handful of frames. I saw Ash bladestorm suggestions at the end of 2019, and those changes were implemented just a few months ago. 

You must have missed the reworks to the Star Chart, multiple Focus and Operator reworks, multiple melee reworks, multiple status reworks, massive weapon rebalancing passes, parkour overhaul, and the addition of Railjack, then, to name but a few changes far larger than my own that still got implemented throughout Warframe's history. For sure, the changes I'm suggesting are systemic, and therefore touch on quite a few different factors, but would be nowhere near the largest or most complex DE would have implemented in Warframe, a game that has been in constant ongoing development since its release. Arguing that a suggestion shouldn't be implemented purely due to its scope therefore not only isn't a valid argument for most scopes (including this one), but also fundamentally misunderstands Warframe's development model, to say nothing of how the argument ignores its history of large-scale internal overhauls.

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To defend a game breaking mod that would give every frame consistent invisibility(completing negating what makes stealth frames special and having their own niche), you claimed players can use a skiajati and pets that can't stay alive to maintain consistent invisibility.....while also claiming that "finishers are niche multipliers that are unlikely to happen often" and that "virtually nobody builds for finishers"....The skiajati procs 5 seconds of invisibility off of finishers....so which is it? Is invisibility just so easy to maintain for every single frame or is it not? I thought you just said no one builds for finishers.... so where are all the people using the skiajati for invisibility finisher builds? Yea, it's a great one of out 100 methods to build for, using Inaros and finishers for example.....but that's one playstyle that a player has the option to use, and isn't forced on them......

It seems you've missed the logical sequence of statements at hand, so allow me to clarify: finishers are indeed niche and don't happen often in practice, because most players find them too time-consuming relative to the benefits they provide over, say, just killing everyone else in sight within that same time window using almost any weapon. This includes the prospective benefits of going permanently invisible through Arcane Trickery and the Skiajati, which both easily enable doing so. So, to answer your question: it's both. Not only can any frame obtain persistent invisibility with ease if they choose to, doing so is so unproblematic in the game we play that most players don't even bother opting into it, whether it be through finishers, companions, or Operators. Thus, despite your vocal insistence to the contrary, all in-game evidence points to the mod I'm suggesting posing no real threat of overpoweredness as implemented.

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You also claimed "it makes no immediate sense to increase crit chance beyond 100%" when this is patently false.....as one of the main objectives or goals is to achieve higher crit tiers....it literally says "When a weapon achieves a crit chance higher than 100%, every attack will crit but it also gains a chance to deal an even stronger crit. As the critical hit chance increases, the tier of critical damage does so as well."

Your argument proves my point, not yours: indeed, players are indeed encouraged to get their crit chance beyond 100% if possible... because Warframe's own crit system has the specific quirk of stacking crit tiers. This is something the game has to tell you... and it doesn't even do that right, as the tooltip for crits merely talks about colors, without explaining what orange or red crits do, nor how one calculates the chance to get them. None of this makes immediate sense, because the intuitive model for any sort of percentage chance is for the percentage to remain between 0 and 100%, and for any excess of that to not matter. It is only Warframe's specific implementation of crit (and now status... which itself required a rework to implement) that makes chances above 100% do anything at all.

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It even has a picture of the tiered crits showing a white 5 for non crit, an 8 for a yellow crit, a 55 for an orange crit, and a 78 for a red crit. 

You mean the wiki? You do realize the wiki isn't the game and isn't affiliated in any way with DE, right? It's just a bunch of volunteers who put together a database. If you're trying to argue that Warframe's crit system is intuitive because you have to read the wiki to understand how its crit formula works... good luck with that.

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Now....should DE just put this in the codex so people like you have no excuse to not have the information? Yes of course, but guess what? This doesn't take an entire game wide rework.....

No, it doesn't, but it still means the player has to look the thing up somewhere instead of being able to grok how it works. Porting the wiki to the game might allow it to inform players without having to rely on an external resource, but that won't magically make its unintuitive systems intuitive. If the issue were simply that crit was poorly-explained, for sure the most apt solution would be to just explain it, but as you might have noticed, the critique section on this thread's main post has a few more bulletpoints, and the one talking about unintuitiveness talks about more than just crit, and more than just how its functionality isn't listed in the Codex. If this escaped you, I encourage you to read my post more thoroughly, and see the greater range of reasons for why I'm proposing the changes being discussed.

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Should they also offer more methods to reach higher crit tiers? Sure. Off the top of my head, I think only Harrow supports the team via crits. Besides point Strike and rivens and adarza, there's not many different ways to play around with crits. This also doesn't take a game wide rework. 

I'm sorry, who's asking for more methods of reaching higher crit tiers on this thread? It sounds like you're the only one so far, in which case you might be better off making suggestions in your own separate thread, or better yet, asking DE in the manner you recommended.

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I have to go do some real life stuff so I'll have to come back later to address the rest of the points.

This would be a lot more convincing if your reply hadn't been over 500 words long. You are not, to the best of my knowledge, being forced at gunpoint to comment on this thread or anyone else's, so there is no need to feel like you have to post anything, as constructive discussion isn't about commenting on cue. Feel free to take as much time as you need to formulate an adequate response.

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The main issue is that your rework is completely unnecessary and simplifies the game way too much. The game already caters to casual players enough, and only small tweaks are needed to further handhold the ones truly incapable of reading a website in the 21st century. For the sake of argument I'll just pretend literally no one reads anything on the internet at all, to make it seem more realistic that people shouldn't have to occasionally read websites for a game. 

Unnecessary... by whose standards? Simplifies the game way too much... to whom? I certainly don't agree with either point, and I do believe I have evidence and analysis extending beyond my own personal experience in support of this. Meanwhile, you have... what exactly? You are of course free to believe whatever you like, but in order to convince me or anyone else, which is presumably what you're trying to do here, you're going to have to support your claims. This is point 2 on the forum guide for giving good feedback, which I very much encourage you to read as soon as you can, preferably in priority over making further posts on the feedback forums.

Edited by Teridax68
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On 2021-02-19 at 2:01 PM, Teridax68 said:
  • Finishers, stealth damage multipliers removed, body part multipliers altered to consistently make the head a weak point.
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rip inaros players.

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2 minutes ago, fo3nixz said:

rip inaros players.

I wouldn't say that, given that my post also mentions this:

On 2021-02-19 at 12:01 PM, Teridax68 said:
  • Damaging an enemy in any way inflicts a critical hit if any of the following conditions are met:
    • The enemy is affected by an ability that renders them vulnerable to critical hits. This includes blinds

And given that Inaros's passive currently works off of finishers, one could very well have it work off of melee crits instead, or even just make it a part of his 1.

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15 hours ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

instead of proposing a complete rework of a 7 year old games mod system, damage system, 45 frames and hundreds of weapons and combat system. 

wat are we on? Melee 2.0 or Melee 3.0 now?

DE introduces new mods all the time, look at the wiki and it'll tell you when each was added, they love mod suggestions.

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9 hours ago, gbjbaanb said:

wat are we on? Melee 2.0 or Melee 3.0 now?

DE introduces new mods all the time, look at the wiki and it'll tell you when each was added, they love mod suggestions.

The mod suggestions were great, except for the free invisibility for all mod. 

If you read his OP, he wants to do more than that. He wants to get rid of stealth and finisher damage as well.

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one of your main critiques seems to focus on MOA's - i actually like that they are nonstandard. it makes Enemies have some differences and need different strategies.

which to note, the Head of a MOA is actually the Head, that's what triggers Headshot related effects. but the Power Pack is what gets the Damage Multiplier of a Head. it's split between them.
weird and wacky? i agree. but it's different from other Enemies, which makes it stand out. these sorts of nuances that are different between Enemies is part of what i love about Monster Hunter - you don't just metaphorically point at neck level and magdump, you have actual strategies you're trying to employ that change between Enemies.

i'm sure plenty of people would argue "well every Enemy should have the strong and weak points at consistent locations across all of them, so that i can point at the same place on every Enemy, and just sweep one position and hold the trigger down for maximum Damage!"
no.... that's exactly what games shouldn't be. that's too convenient, that's complete Player disengagement. why even have Body Part Multipliers if all you have to do is point at one spot in space and keep shooting. that's not adding any depth, that's actually reducing depth. atleast when games don't have Body Part Multipliers, people aim for whatever they can hit currently, rather than a singular fixed point in space. 
Enemies should be interesting to fight, not clones. this is exactly what i've come to grow tired of in traditional PvP Shooters - they're usually arcadey enough that there is simply no strategy in how you aim other than point at the neck and Magdump. that's always objectively the best thing to do, never any thought put into it.

Corpus were way cooler when their Helmet actually protected their Head, Et Cetera.

 

 

some of what you say gives me an idea though - reduce Crit Chance across the board of everything in the game. but, make Weakpoints force Crits. so then modding for Crit Chance is about opting into a Chance to get a Weakpoint hit even if you can't hit the Weakpoint(s).
i'm thinking like, instead of Sniper Rifles averaging 20-30% currently, they'd be more like 12%. meaning stuff that's more in the 15% area right now, would end up at more like, 5%.
it's low enough that both types can exist, i think.

On 2021-02-19 at 7:39 AM, gbjbaanb said:

Frankly, this is the problem - why melee is OP - is because of all these little fiddles that can take your damage up into the millions with little effort. TBH I think they should all be removed. Your weapons should do damage based more on skill (eg headshots) than simply pressing E twice in succession (or even pressing it once with a keyboard macro doing the hard work for you)

i agree in principle, but Melee Stances would have to stop being so overall horrible, for that to really work out. different attack types would have to actually be different from each other in relevant ways, you'd have to actually be able to aim them rather than only kinda sorta, the works.
though, attack types that were less about Weakpoint precision, could innately have benefits of themselves. like instead of your Mods giving you Damage by hitting a bunch, a sweeping attack from a Stance could offer like +25% Damage per Enemy the sweep hits, in contrast to a more precision based swing being able to hit Weakpoints for a large Damage Multiplier. those would contrast well.

 

 

 

 

On 2021-02-19 at 7:48 AM, Teridax68 said:

and forces commitment to melee when we should instead be encouraged to switch freely between melee and guns on the fly. 

yes. atleast, that's what i want the game to support. use all of your tools together, not use just one. but also to not try to prevent people using just one. just to reward them for using them together.

Edited by taiiat
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7 hours ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

The mod suggestions were great, except for the free invisibility for all mod. 

If you read his OP, he wants to do more than that. He wants to get rid of stealth and finisher damage as well.

Which, if you were to read what that person posted, is still in line with the systemic reworks DE have implemented in the past. If you want to talk about the stuff you like, I encourage you to, but as it stands it appears your main criticisms are unfounded.

5 hours ago, taiiat said:

which to note, the Head of a MOA is actually the Head, that's what triggers Headshot related effects. but the Power Pack is what gets the Damage Multiplier of a Head. it's split between them.

I had to test this just to make sure, and I invite you to try with a Rubico Prime and a Simulacrum full of lvl 180 MOAs: no. The head underneath the gun has no damage multiplier; you deal the exact same damage as if you were to shoot them in one of the legs. It is only the pack that triggers the 3x damage multiplier and bypasses the shield gate.

5 hours ago, taiiat said:

i'm sure plenty of people would argue "well every Enemy should have the strong and weak points at consistent locations across all of them, so that i can point at the same place on every Enemy, and just sweep one position and hold the trigger down for maximum Damage!"

Personally, I'd argue that outside of the humanoid enemies, our opponents are distinct enough in shape that standardizing weak points to the head would still make for a variety of different spots to aim for. Warframe isn't Monster Hunter, where you attack the same enemy for minutes at a time, it's a game where you shoot crowds of enemies. Engaging any one enemy shouldn't be this complex battle of tactics and move memorization, unless they're a boss.

To be clear, I don't think this is the same as arguing against any sort of extra weak points whatsoever -- I think it would make sense to make the Machinist's fuel tank another weak point, for example, and Bursas are known for needing to be shot in the back; it just needs to be made clear to the player, which visibly isn't the case when two veterans can't agree on which part on the body of one of the game's most common enemies counts as its weak point.

5 hours ago, taiiat said:

Corpus were way cooler when their Helmet actually protected their Head, Et Cetera.

Honestly, I feel the opposite way. I already dislike how Grineer can't really be headshot from behind, and I think these sorts of mechanics need to have a purpose behind them: if the intent behind Corpus head protection is to make the player try to play a bit differently, e.g. through melee or the like, sure, but as it stands, all it did was just discourage headshots in favor of bodyshots, which is even less interesting.

5 hours ago, taiiat said:

some of what you say gives me an idea though - reduce Crit Chance across the board of everything in the game. but, make Weakpoints force Crits. so then modding for Crit Chance is about opting into a Chance to get a Weakpoint hit even if you can't hit the Weakpoint(s).
i'm thinking like, instead of Sniper Rifles averaging 20-30% currently, they'd be more like 12%. meaning stuff that's more in the 15% area right now, would end up at more like, 5%.
it's low enough that both types can exist, i think.

I think the compromise here could be to roll that kind of random crit into a status effect, e.g. Puncture, and see how that would work out. Personally, I dislike RNG effects in our gameplay, because they tend to not actually add gameplay -- random crit doesn't innately reward any particular kind of play over another, and you'd have to insert mechanics to make it encourage more skilful play, as per your suggestion. I have an itch to suggest a rework to status that would take away its own randomness, but aside from that, I think if the intent is to add more damage -- which is essentially all a random crit chance does -- then that should be a matter of adding raw damage to the weapon.

5 hours ago, taiiat said:

yes. atleast, that's what i want the game to support. use all of your tools together, not use just one. but also to not try to prevent people using just one. just to reward them for using them together.

I'm of the exact same opinion here. Personally, I really like melee, and I'd like to be able to go into any mission with just a melee weapon, which is currently impossible against some bosses. However, I want that to be my own, silly choice, rather than something I'm pushed to do, and currently the combo meter is one of those mechanics that forces commitment to melee. Come to think of it, I could probably have listed that as one of the systems to remove in the OP, as I think it's a relic of old melee design that needed to go.

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30 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

 it just needs to be made clear to the player, which visibly isn't the case when two veterans can't agree on which part on the body of one of the game's most common enemies counts as its weak point.

oh it's very clear. you're just not letting it be.

the Head of a MOA triggers Headshot related effects, such as counting as a Headshot Kill, on Headshot Mod Effects, Et Cetera. while the Power Pack has the Damage Multiplier.
like i said, it's split between them. so if you had a Gun with Argon Scope, your ideal attack method would be shoot the Head once, then shoot the Power Pack.
MOA's are weird like that, and i'll infinitely prefer Enemies with more complex Body Part Multipliers, over ones with less.
our Stats are high enough where if you don't wish to engage with Body Parts you don't have to anyways, even in the more extreme scenarios you don't have to be attacking optimally to Kill the Enemy quickly.

 

34 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

all it did was just discourage headshots in favor of bodyshots, which is even less interesting.

at the time it most certainly did not. our Stats were significantly lower then, and it wasn't a foregone conclusion that you were going to oneshot the Enemy no matter where you pointed at. so you could shoot the Helmet a few times to break it off and get that Damage Multiplier, or settle for shooting the Body numerous times.

36 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

I think if the intent is to add more damage -- which is essentially all a random crit chance does -- then that should be a matter of adding raw damage to the weapon.

my intend is actually to allow one to potentially get Headshot related effects without having hit any of the actual Weakpoints of an Enemy. so that even if you can't get to the Weakpoint, any effects that normally rely on it could still be used, but to a significantly reduced result than normal, so that you would still want to hit the Weakpoint(s) if possible.

 

 

 

38 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

 

Personally, I'd argue that outside of the humanoid enemies, our opponents are distinct enough in shape that standardizing weak points to the head would still make for a variety of different spots to aim for. Warframe isn't Monster Hunter, where you attack the same enemy for minutes at a time, it's a game where you shoot crowds of enemies. Engaging any one enemy shouldn't be this complex battle of tactics and move memorization, unless they're a boss.

 

i end up getting mixed signals here - simultaneously you want the game to be about mowing dudes down, about theoretically having to pick where you're aiming...
but then you also want to generally be able to let go of your Camera and just shoot at one fixed point in space and hit the ideal Damage point on an Enemy roughly 9/10 times, Et Cetera.

do you want picking your shots to matter, or not? if the place to shoot on an Enemy is the same on every Enemy, that isn't picking our Shots, that's basically becoming most Shooters ever of exactly that i gripe about Magdumping at neck level. if the Enemies are too weak for having Weakpoints to matter, to.... matter, then what are we even doing here.
are the Enemies probably going to not matter forever into the future of the game? based on the more recent years, that certainly seems to be the case. we can either try to add some engagement to the moment to moment Combat anyways, or decide that this really is just a beyblading game.
i'm for having interesting Body Part Multipliers no matter whether Enemies are quickly dispatched or not. Enemies dying quickly doesn't negate the optional engagement of having a reason to aim. that most Players won't engage with it just like they don't now isn't an issue for me personally, it's there as an option for them.

45 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

However, I want that to be my own, silly choice, rather than something I'm pushed to do, and currently the combo meter is one of those mechanics that forces commitment to melee.
I think it's a relic of old melee design that needed to go.

i never liked it to begin with, since it's just about flailing into Enemies, rather than something that you do. Stances have made that a bit better, but it could be much more. there's probably ways to sorta save it, like less spammy attacks simply adding more than a single hit to the Counter, maybe Weakpoints increasing it further, Et Cetera.
but it's also probably easier to try and make real Melee instead anyways, and i'm fine with either one on paper. as long as Melee can be less about throwing out the poor tools we're usually given and beyblading, that'll be very helpful.
in theory we got what i was trying to get for a long time, Stances to more offer a box of tools than a few preset war dances...... but it's mostly a failure to me since the Stances lost a lot of the personality that they had before since i'd say half of the tools that they had with those Animation sequences were just straight up deleted, and in their place between Neutral, Forward, Block, and Forward Block..... so many Stances have atleast two sometimes 3 of them effectively doing the same thing in Combat. it's technically different but in actual use it's not really.

so whichever avenue of some hits adding more than a single hit or getting rid of the Counter entirely, is fine by me as long as the Animations get actually fixed this time. so many Melee Weapons which i had enjoyed using that are now atleast partially useless because some pointless thing was tied to one of the 4 main Melee sequences, replacing something that had previously been useful but often simply just hard to access.

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5 minutes ago, taiiat said:

oh it's very clear. you're just not letting it be.

the Head of a MOA triggers Headshot related effects, such as counting as a Headshot Kill, on Headshot Mod Effects, Et Cetera. while the Power Pack has the Damage Multiplier.
like i said, it's split between them. so if you had a Gun with Argon Scope, your ideal attack method would be shoot the Head once, then shoot the Power Pack.
MOA's are weird like that, and i'll infinitely prefer Enemies with more complex Body Part Multipliers, over ones with less.
our Stats are high enough where if you don't wish to engage with Body Parts you don't have to anyways, even in the more extreme scenarios you don't have to be attacking optimally to Kill the Enemy quickly.

Okay, but you do realize how that makes no sense, right? Why does the headshot spot not have the damage multiplier as well? Why would shooting the actual weak point not trigger the things that are normally supposed to encourage hitting the weak point? Why do we even have headshot-focused effects if the head isn't always the weak point? That's not tactical depth, that's just counterintuitive design.

5 minutes ago, taiiat said:

at the time it most certainly did not. our Stats were significantly lower then, and it wasn't a foregone conclusion that you were going to oneshot the Enemy no matter where you pointed at. so you could shoot the Helmet a few times to break it off and get that Damage Multiplier, or settle for shooting the Body numerous times.

But if you had to hit the target multiple times either way... what's the difference? When was that even changed?

5 minutes ago, taiiat said:

my intend is actually to allow one to potentially get Headshot related effects without having hit any of the actual Weakpoints of an Enemy. so that even if you can't get to the Weakpoint, any effects that normally rely on it could still be used, but to a significantly reduced result than normal, so that you would still want to hit the Weakpoint(s) if possible.

How so? If you weren't to hit the weak points, you'd just be gettting random crits, same as now. How is your proposal meaningfully different from what we currently have?

5 minutes ago, taiiat said:

i end up getting mixed signals here - simultaneously you want the game to be about mowing dudes down, about theoretically having to pick where you're aiming...
but then you also want to generally be able to let go of your Camera and just shoot at one fixed point in space and hit the ideal Damage point on an Enemy roughly 9/10 times, Et Cetera.

I don't think the issue here is mixed signals, so much as an oversimplification of what is being discussed. I do think we should be encouraged to aim for the head (and, on occasion, other additional weak spots), it just doesn't need to be a complex tactical problem for every enemy we encounter, because we encounter a lot of enemies. Even just taking a fraction of a second to adjust one's aim for each enemy is already a meaningful difference when that time is multiplied by the number of enemies you're fighting against.

5 minutes ago, taiiat said:

do you want picking your shots to matter, or not? if the place to shoot on an Enemy is the same on every Enemy, that isn't picking our Shots, that's basically becoming most Shooters ever of exactly that i gripe about Magdumping at neck level.

I can agree with you that the game would be boring if shooting the weak spot just involved aiming at the same angle the whole time, but I think the solution you're proposing creates more problems than it solves, as it explicitly intends to make hitting the weak spot a matter of book-keeping rather than intuitive placement. A better, more intuitive solution already exists in Warframe: make differently-shaped enemies, and have them fight from different elevations. This is why mixing MOAs and crewmen already introduces some variety, because you can't just stay at the same angle the whole time to shoot the weak spot. Flying Vapos crewmen also add to the mix by flying around and creating a different elevation level from the rest of the mooks you're fighting. Even with weak spots placed consistently at the head, you can't just let go of the camera and expect to land headshots nearly every time, because you're going to have to adjust your aim based on head level, even more so when factoring in tiles that have multiple levels and changes in elevation.

5 minutes ago, taiiat said:

if the Enemies are too weak for having Weakpoints to matter, to.... matter, then what are we even doing here.

I don't think anyone here is asking for enemies to be too weak for weak points to matter; there's a world of difference between a horde shooter, and a horde shooter where enemies each have 1 HP for all intents and purposes. This isn't a distinction Warframe makes very well, for sure, but then I don't like the fact that we can one-shot most enemies without effort either. Most enemies shouldn't be too tough to fight individually, but they could certainly stand to put up more of a fight.

5 minutes ago, taiiat said:

are the Enemies probably going to not matter forever into the future of the game? based on the more recent years, that certainly seems to be the case. we can either try to add some engagement to the moment to moment Combat anyways, or decide that this really is just a beyblading game.
i'm for having interesting Body Part Multipliers no matter whether Enemies are quickly dispatched or not. Enemies dying quickly doesn't negate the optional engagement of having a reason to aim. that most Players won't engage with it just like they don't now isn't an issue for me personally, it's there as an option for them.

I don't think we're disagreeing here, we just don't agree on where to stick those weak points. Really, I don't think there's anything wrong with making the head a consistent weak point, so long as enemies are diverse enough to not feel the same.

5 minutes ago, taiiat said:

i never liked it to begin with, since it's just about flailing into Enemies, rather than something that you do. Stances have made that a bit better, but it could be much more. there's probably ways to sorta save it, like less spammy attacks simply adding more than a single hit to the Counter, maybe Weakpoints increasing it further, Et Cetera.
but it's also probably easier to try and make real Melee instead anyways, and i'm fine with either one on paper. as long as Melee can be less about throwing out the poor tools we're usually given and beyblading, that'll be very helpful.
in theory we got what i was trying to get for a long time, Stances to more offer a box of tools than a few preset war dances...... but it's mostly a failure to me since the Stances lost a lot of the personality that they had before since i'd say half of the tools that they had with those Animation sequences were just straight up deleted, and in their place between Neutral, Forward, Block, and Forward Block..... so many Stances have atleast two sometimes 3 of them effectively doing the same thing in Combat. it's technically different but in actual use it's not really.

so whichever avenue of some hits adding more than a single hit or getting rid of the Counter entirely, is fine by me as long as the Animations get actually fixed this time. so many Melee Weapons which i had enjoyed using that are now atleast partially useless because some pointless thing was tied to one of the 4 main Melee sequences, replacing something that had previously been useful but often simply just hard to access.

Melee is an entire can of worms by itself, which I'd be more than eager to discuss as well, but yeah, agreed. Melee still isn't as good as it could be, and its current implementation doesn't really encourage more than just button-mashing. While this may not be a popular opinion, I think the problem lies in fact with our animations and stances, because being forced to hit in specific patterns and at specific angles constrains our ability to aim, and if each of those hits does the same thing, it just lends itself to mindless spam. Personally, I'd rather get rid of those entirely, and instead try to come up with some sort of freeform system that would let us attack exactly where we're aiming, without resorting to canned animations: we'd still have to aim somewhat even if we do button-mash at close range, and we'd be able to aim for weak points to. Beyond that, attacking in certain ways to produce certain effects I think should be the domain of weapon-specific effects, and could be a good opportunity to make older, more generic weapons interesting.

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50 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

Okay, but you do realize how that makes no sense, right? Why does the headshot spot not have the damage multiplier as well? Why would shooting the actual weak point not trigger the things that are normally supposed to encourage hitting the weak point? Why do we even have headshot-focused effects if the head isn't always the weak point? That's not tactical depth, that's just counterintuitive design.

yes, MOA's are very weird. i wasn't advocating for Enemies to be like that, but it's certainly more interesting than every Enemy being standard Humanoid with two Body Parts in total.

1 hour ago, Teridax68 said:

But if you had to hit the target multiple times either way... what's the difference? When was that even changed?

uhhhhhhh
i think we're on revision 4 for Corpus Helmets currently, and when that stuff was removed from them..... i don't really remember. i think it was before Second Dream, but i really don't remember clearly.
those revisions included being normal Heads and no Helmet breaking, Helmets being extremely resistant to all but a few Damage Types, Helmets just having a Health value rather than Resists and breaking off, and the current breaks off just Cosmetically.

 

1 hour ago, Teridax68 said:

How so? If you weren't to hit the weak points, you'd just be gettting random crits, same as now. How is your proposal meaningfully different from what we currently have?

yes, it's sharing similarities with what we have now. it would be an existing but fairly low Chance to be able to get a hit that triggers any Weakpoint/Headshot effects that you have, without having hit that zone. for very inconvenient situations it would be helpful, and it would also allow Weakpoint/Headshot related stuff actually work on Enemies that you currently can't use them on.

1 hour ago, Teridax68 said:

but I think the solution you're proposing creates more problems than it solves, as it explicitly intends to make hitting the weak spot a matter of book-keeping rather than intuitive placement.

A better, more intuitive solution already exists in Warframe: make differently-shaped enemies, and have them fight from different elevations.

who says it can't be intuitive? Enemies can just use the global Video Games rules of "if it's glowy, shoot it or interact with it".

yes, we have some of that too. non Humanoid Enemies which change things up. but i don't see a reason to not also change up the Humanoids as well. i would wholly welcome a Humanoid Enemy that wore an Armored Helmet but had a Backpack or a Chest Core or various other tropes.

1 hour ago, Teridax68 said:

This isn't a distinction Warframe makes very well, for sure, but then I don't like the fact that we can one-shot most enemies without effort either. Most enemies shouldn't be too tough to fight individually, but they could certainly stand to put up more of a fight.

sure. while everyone complains about Venus Landscape Enemies - those are some of my favorite Enemies in the game, because of just that. they're a mixture of everything - don't get me wrong, they definitely spam staggers or AoE pushes up into the air too much, but aside from that they do a pretty good job for what the game has to work with currently. they feel like an actual Army, rather than just a big group of dudes. Enemies that specialize in many different roles, are generally very visually distinctive from one another, and also put on a good show.
but even those could stand to diversify a bit more, ever present is the Humanoids that could use some more physical diversity. even the more basic MOA's too since their physical form is very similar despite having different gear.

i'm all for adding extra Weakpoints to Enemies too, which would to me be reminiscent of both Monster Hunter and Division - Enemies being not just Health Bars, but also having Gear that's usually temporarily or permanently destructible, or offering the opportunity to use timed Damage to imterrupt something the Enemy is doing, Et Cetera. all classic tropes thesedays, but they're still great features and work well in games.
but - i'm also for a Humanoid Head not always being "the right answer". that's exactly something that an Enemy would usually try to protect, so in a game they would be expected to atleast be doing that sometimes. some Units which opt to protect their Head more than other parts of their Body, seems like a natural fit. or, even taking some hints from Killing Floor - Enemies that block their own Weakpoints sometimes, with other Body Parts. so that it's still there but you can't hit it sometimes. Brood Mothers even do that in a way, with their Heart being exposed when they Spawn Maggots. granted that's another convoluted situation since only their real Head triggers Headshot related effects and gets the extra Crit Multiplier and counts as a Headshot Kill, even thouh both their actual Head and their Heart are 2x Damage zones.
i don't see why we can't do both. hell, Ambulas does this already to some degree. it wears destructible Armor over its Head, and some destructible Armor on either side of its Hack Panel. plus some extra destructible Armor on the rest of its body to protect against a bit of Damage.
these Enemies are changing up the status quo.

 

 

1 hour ago, Teridax68 said:

Beyond that, attacking in certain ways to produce certain effects I think should be the domain of weapon-specific effects, and could be a good opportunity to make older, more generic weapons interesting.

i think Stances could support it, and having styles to choose from is good, i think. but i would also welcome Weapon specific perks too again, like we had in the early days.
i remember Skana Prime being a big deal in the early days since its Charge Attack was an overhead swing, meaning you guessed it, on most Enemies it could Headshot fairly reliably. that was a great unique feature to offer, and not even something all that complicated.
granted with hundreds more Weapons now, we'd have to get more complicated than that, but either way it shows that even with simple things we can make a lot of diversity.

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On 2021-02-21 at 4:44 AM, Teridax68 said:

That actually sounds like a brilliant idea! If you have the personal contact information of the DE employee responsible for personally taking in the suggestions of the Warframe playerbase, do share and I'll be happy to send them my ideas.

... but sarcasm aside, you really, really don't seem to understand the place you're in. Allow me to remind you: you are in the Warframe feedback forums, the designated place where players give feedback on Warframe, getting offended about players posting feedback. I am already asking DE in the proper manner, and your opposition to this basic act across the many threads you've commented on shows just how little you belong in this kind of space and conversation with that kind of attitude. I am allowed to post whichever feedback and suggestions I like, including systemic reworks (which would be by no means the largest DE would've implemented in-game on multiple occasions), and while you can dislike my ideas freely, you do not get to oppose the act of giving feedback itself. If you think you do, I would recommend you first take a break from posting, and ask yourself if trying to shut down discussion on a game's feedback space is truly productive behavior.

You must have missed the reworks to the Star Chart, multiple Focus and Operator reworks, multiple melee reworks, multiple status reworks, massive weapon rebalancing passes, parkour overhaul, and the addition of Railjack, then, to name but a few changes far larger than my own that still got implemented throughout Warframe's history. For sure, the changes I'm suggesting are systemic, and therefore touch on quite a few different factors, but would be nowhere near the largest or most complex DE would have implemented in Warframe, a game that has been in constant ongoing development since its release. Arguing that a suggestion shouldn't be implemented purely due to its scope therefore not only isn't a valid argument for most scopes (including this one), but also fundamentally misunderstands Warframe's development model, to say nothing of how the argument ignores its history of large-scale internal overhauls.

It seems you've missed the logical sequence of statements at hand, so allow me to clarify: finishers are indeed niche and don't happen often in practice, because most players find them too time-consuming relative to the benefits they provide over, say, just killing everyone else in sight within that same time window using almost any weapon. This includes the prospective benefits of going permanently invisible through Arcane Trickery and the Skiajati, which both easily enable doing so. So, to answer your question: it's both. Not only can any frame obtain persistent invisibility with ease if they choose to, doing so is so unproblematic in the game we play that most players don't even bother opting into it, whether it be through finishers, companions, or Operators. Thus, despite your vocal insistence to the contrary, all in-game evidence points to the mod I'm suggesting posing no real threat of overpoweredness as implemented.

Your argument proves my point, not yours: indeed, players are indeed encouraged to get their crit chance beyond 100% if possible... because Warframe's own crit system has the specific quirk of stacking crit tiers. This is something the game has to tell you... and it doesn't even do that right, as the tooltip for crits merely talks about colors, without explaining what orange or red crits do, nor how one calculates the chance to get them. None of this makes immediate sense, because the intuitive model for any sort of percentage chance is for the percentage to remain between 0 and 100%, and for any excess of that to not matter. It is only Warframe's specific implementation of crit (and now status... which itself required a rework to implement) that makes chances above 100% do anything at all.

You mean the wiki? You do realize the wiki isn't the game and isn't affiliated in any way with DE, right? It's just a bunch of volunteers who put together a database. If you're trying to argue that Warframe's crit system is intuitive because you have to read the wiki to understand how its crit formula works... good luck with that.

No, it doesn't, but it still means the player has to look the thing up somewhere instead of being able to grok how it works. Porting the wiki to the game might allow it to inform players without having to rely on an external resource, but that won't magically make its unintuitive systems intuitive. If the issue were simply that crit was poorly-explained, for sure the most apt solution would be to just explain it, but as you might have noticed, the critique section on this thread's main post has a few more bulletpoints, and the one talking about unintuitiveness talks about more than just crit, and more than just how its functionality isn't listed in the Codex. If this escaped you, I encourage you to read my post more thoroughly, and see the greater range of reasons for why I'm proposing the changes being discussed.

I'm sorry, who's asking for more methods of reaching higher crit tiers on this thread? It sounds like you're the only one so far, in which case you might be better off making suggestions in your own separate thread, or better yet, asking DE in the manner you recommended.

This would be a lot more convincing if your reply hadn't been over 500 words long. You are not, to the best of my knowledge, being forced at gunpoint to comment on this thread or anyone else's, so there is no need to feel like you have to post anything, as constructive discussion isn't about commenting on cue. Feel free to take as much time as you need to formulate an adequate response.

Unnecessary... by whose standards? Simplifies the game way too much... to whom? I certainly don't agree with either point, and I do believe I have evidence and analysis extending beyond my own personal experience in support of this. Meanwhile, you have... what exactly? You are of course free to believe whatever you like, but in order to convince me or anyone else, which is presumably what you're trying to do here, you're going to have to support your claims. This is point 2 on the forum guide for giving good feedback, which I very much encourage you to read as soon as you can, preferably in priority over making further posts on the feedback forums.

Allow me to remind you: you're on a public feedback forum, making suggestions that affect everyone that plays the game. You made the post, so deal with the feedback. 

Did the starchart rework include major revisions to the mod system, frames and their abilities and the entire combat system overall? Yes or no? 

Did the operator and focus rework include major revisions to the mod system, frames and their abilities and the entire combat system overall? Yes or no? 

Did any of these reworks simplify the game to mobile game kindergarten levels? 

Once again: how do you know most players aren't using finishers? How do you know what they find time consuming? Once a player turns on the solo mode or invite only option, you know you can't see them, correct? Where's the data coming from? Do you have access to DEs internal data? 

A single mod that gives consistent invisibility is leagues easier than setting up a finisher, using a specific weapon and a specific arcane or companion. It will easily become a meta, and you're feigning ignorance if you're ignoring this. I don't have to use a skia or get an arcane or a companion, all I have to do is get a critical and that's it. Even rolling guard has a 7 second cooldown. Common sense. 

Once again, the game provides you with enough data to see how crits work. Every weapon has a description of its base stats and shows how those stats are altered when a mod is applied like point Strike. This is why the number turns green when point Strike is added. Are you suggesting merely having to read a mods stats and a weapons stats is too complicated and warrants such a massive change to the game? It would be much simpler to just add the data into the game so you no longer have an excuse. "The game didn't tell me so completely change it to my system" is terrible reasoning for your rework.

The game is intuitive by adding descriptions for every item and ability in the game. If a player can't put 2 and 2 together and think "I wonder if I can use arcane avenger and harrow to see what happens with this weapon" then that's not the games fault. The player is going to have to read and explore no matter what, whether it's an ability description, mod description, or weapon description. 

Once again, what is your "evidence and analysis extending beyond my own personal experience"? You just made the claim....  but didn't present anything....All you've said was "the game doesn't tell the player anything" cool, quick fix. "There's no build diversity" when there's 45 frames that all do unique and different things for the variety of missions and game modes we have an a vast array of different build and mod combinations, to which you want to admittedly pigeonhole by "condensing everything" to be "much simpler".

And fyi, you show a huge lack of knowledge when you claim the proboscis Cernos is an average weapon and think it's completely ok to give an AOE weapon with very high base status and innate viral and slash damage an incredibly easy way to proc crits, completely disregarding that it was designed to make the user work for said crits. Do you think it was some random accident that the weapon has low base crit? 

Edited by (PSN)Madurai-Prime
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1 hour ago, taiiat said:

yes, MOA's are very weird. i wasn't advocating for Enemies to be like that, but it's certainly more interesting than every Enemy being standard Humanoid with two Body Parts in total.

That I can agree with, and I think more could be done to vary the silhouettes on some enemy types, as old Corpus and Grineer units are particularly guilty of being essentially copy-pasted models with a few alterations.

1 hour ago, taiiat said:

uhhhhhhh
i think we're on revision 4 for Corpus Helmets currently, and when that stuff was removed from them..... i don't really remember. i think it was before Second Dream, but i really don't remember clearly.
those revisions included being normal Heads and no Helmet breaking, Helmets being extremely resistant to all but a few Damage Types, Helmets just having a Health value rather than Resists and breaking off, and the current breaks off just Cosmetically.

I see. That I think could be an interesting mechanic to have on a tougher unit that one couldn't just blitz through (e.g. the Nox), but for cannon fodder enemies, I can understand why that changed.

1 hour ago, taiiat said:

yes, it's sharing similarities with what we have now. it would be an existing but fairly low Chance to be able to get a hit that triggers any Weakpoint/Headshot effects that you have, without having hit that zone. for very inconvenient situations it would be helpful, and it would also allow Weakpoint/Headshot related stuff actually work on Enemies that you currently can't use them on.

I think if the issue is with some enemies not having any headshot multipliers, that ought to be addressed by simply having the weak spot apply multipliers, and buffing EHP accordingly, in cases of enemies like Lephantis. That way, weapons made to hit weak spots would be effective when hitting the one vulnerable spot on an otherwise invulnerable enemy.

1 hour ago, taiiat said:

who says it can't be intuitive? Enemies can just use the global Video Games rules of "if it's glowy, shoot it or interact with it".

I think the risk with that workaround is that Warframe has a lot of glowy stuff already, including on enemy models, e.g. the glowing tentacle things on Deimos Infested. Making weak points consistently glowy may thus not always register, and it also creates the dilemma of whether to make every head glowy (in which case every humanoid enemy turns into a lamppost) or to assume players would know to aim for that (in which case only some weak points would end up being highlighted, and others not).

1 hour ago, taiiat said:

yes, we have some of that too. non Humanoid Enemies which change things up. but i don't see a reason to not also change up the Humanoids as well. i would wholly welcome a Humanoid Enemy that wore an Armored Helmet but had a Backpack or a Chest Core or various other tropes.

I agree with this, but also still think the answer should be "why not both", rather than either-or. If you don't want an enemy to have a head to shoot for bonus damage, might as well make the enemy non-humanoid, otherwise the humanoid enemy might as well have an extra weak spot in addition to the head. If you want to incentivize shooting other spots, shooting the alternative weak spots could be made to produce greater effects than mere headshots; e.g. shooting the back tank on the Machinist could blow it up and deal radial Blast/Heat damage, in addition to the weak point damage bonus.

1 hour ago, taiiat said:

sure. while everyone complains about Venus Landscape Enemies - those are some of my favorite Enemies in the game, because of just that. they're a mixture of everything - don't get me wrong, they definitely spam staggers or AoE pushes up into the air too much, but aside from that they do a pretty good job for what the game has to work with currently. they feel like an actual Army, rather than just a big group of dudes. Enemies that specialize in many different roles, are generally very visually distinctive from one another, and also put on a good show.
but even those could stand to diversify a bit more, ever present is the Humanoids that could use some more physical diversity. even the more basic MOA's too since their physical form is very similar despite having different gear.

I very much agree with this. I'm definitely of the opinion that Terra enemies have way too much hard CC and AoE to artificially inflate their difficulty, but I also think they're the ones who started the trend of unit diversification -- some units fly, others leap into the fray, and others still bombard the player from a distance. The Corpus I think always had an advantage in diversity over the Grineer due to their proxies, but Terra enemies showed that even humanoid enemies could be differentiated from one another, something I think could be pushed further across all factions.

1 hour ago, taiiat said:

i'm all for adding extra Weakpoints to Enemies too, which would to me be reminiscent of both Monster Hunter and Division - Enemies being not just Health Bars, but also having Gear that's usually temporarily or permanently destructible, or offering the opportunity to use timed Damage to imterrupt something the Enemy is doing, Et Cetera. all classic tropes thesedays, but they're still great features and work well in games.
but - i'm also for a Humanoid Head not always being "the right answer". that's exactly something that an Enemy would usually try to protect, so in a game they would be expected to atleast be doing that sometimes. some Units which opt to protect their Head more than other parts of their Body, seems like a natural fit. or, even taking some hints from Killing Floor - Enemies that block their own Weakpoints sometimes, with other Body Parts. so that it's still there but you can't hit it sometimes. Brood Mothers even do that in a way, with their Heart being exposed when they Spawn Maggots. granted that's another convoluted situation since only their real Head triggers Headshot related effects and gets the extra Crit Multiplier and counts as a Headshot Kill, even thouh both their actual Head and their Heart are 2x Damage zones.
i don't see why we can't do both. hell, Ambulas does this already to some degree. it wears destructible Armor over its Head, and some destructible Armor on either side of its Hack Panel. plus some extra destructible Armor on the rest of its body to protect against a bit of Damage.
these Enemies are changing up the status quo.

I'm with you on a lot of this, with the main caveat that when you're designing an enemy to be a humanoid, I think making the head their weak point tends to implicitly make sense. Perhaps for tougher enemies you could add protections around it, but if the intent is to design an enemy whose head isn't their weakness, then there are many more options out there in Warframe: the Grineer are cyborgs, and that allows for freakier anatomical configurations, the Corpus have proxies, and the Infested can be essentially anything. Simply keeping the camera above the neck should by no means be the answer to every enemy, but then there are more ways of encouraging that than disabling the head as a weak point.

1 hour ago, taiiat said:

i think Stances could support it, and having styles to choose from is good, i think. but i would also welcome Weapon specific perks too again, like we had in the early days.
i remember Skana Prime being a big deal in the early days since its Charge Attack was an overhead swing, meaning you guessed it, on most Enemies it could Headshot fairly reliably. that was a great unique feature to offer, and not even something all that complicated.
granted with hundreds more Weapons now, we'd have to get more complicated than that, but either way it shows that even with simple things we can make a lot of diversity.

I agree with this too; I very much want more per-weapon diversity, and I think one of the biggest underlying problems with melee weapons in Warframe is that most individual weapons are just lists of stats that otherwise play identically, since you'd be using the same stance across them if they're part of the same type. It's one of the reasons why I'd want to cannibalize the unique mechanics of every stance and shift them onto individual weapons, because doing so could potentially give dozens, even hundreds of them something different from the rest. Failing that, I'd be interested in seeing many more weapon augments as a means of testing new mechanics on older, generic weapons, and seeing if they work well together before potentially just making the mechanic baseline.

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16 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

I think if the issue is with some enemies not having any headshot multipliers, that ought to be addressed by simply having the weak spot apply multipliers, and buffing EHP accordingly, in cases of enemies like Lephantis. That way, weapons made to hit weak spots would be effective when hitting the one vulnerable spot on an otherwise invulnerable enemy.

it could be, i suppose.

17 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

I think the risk with that workaround is that Warframe has a lot of glowy stuff already, including on enemy models, e.g. the glowing tentacle things on Deimos Infested. Making weak points consistently glowy may thus not always register, and it also creates the dilemma of whether to make every head glowy (in which case every humanoid enemy turns into a lamppost) or to assume players would know to aim for that (in which case only some weak points would end up being highlighted, and others not).

yes, Heads or "normal" things could be more normal, and leaving Gas Tanks or bags of Explosives or Weapons or other nonstandard Weakpoints to be the ones that are brightly colored or glow - sounds like the way to go about it.

19 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

e.g. shooting the back tank on the Machinist could blow it up and deal radial Blast/Heat damage, in addition to the weak point damage bonus.

22 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

but then there are more ways of encouraging that than disabling the head as a weak point.

i think i can return with 'why not both' on that too. could very well have an Enemy which does protect its Head but has other Weakpoint(s), and an Enemy which doesn't protect its Head.
now we got two Enemies out of one idea ¯\_ (ツ)_/¯

 

 

24 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

It's one of the reasons why I'd want to cannibalize the unique mechanics of every stance and shift them onto individual weapons, because doing so could potentially give dozens, even hundreds of them something different from the rest. Failing that, I'd be interested in seeing many more weapon augments as a means of testing new mechanics on older, generic weapons, and seeing if they work well together before potentially just making the mechanic baseline.

that'd be ideal but coming up with like, 20 different ways to use a Sword in a pretty arcadey game, might be asking for a lot :crylaugh:

 

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46 minutes ago, taiiat said:

i think i can return with 'why not both' on that too. could very well have an Enemy which does protect its Head but has other Weakpoint(s), and an Enemy which doesn't protect its Head.
now we got two Enemies out of one idea ¯\_ (ツ)_/¯

That's fair enough, though protecting the head and eliminating the head as a weak point entirely I still think are two different things -- if you're designing an enemy with a head, players are going to try shooting the head on instinct, so while adding some protections to play around could be fine, if that's not supposed to be a weak point, that raises the question of why the enemy has a head at all.

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that'd be ideal but coming up with like, 20 different ways to use a Sword in a pretty arcadey game, might be asking for a lot :crylaugh:

If it's a completely different moveset, for sure that'd be too much, but if it's relatively simple stuff like "your third consecutive attack against the same enemy induces bleed" versus "blocking with this rapier staggers the enemy; attacking the weapon of a staggered enemy disarms them", you could get some pretty distinct playstyles out of similar or identical attack animations. 

2 hours ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

Allow me to remind you: you're on a public feedback forum, making suggestions that affect everyone that plays the game. You made the post, so deal with the feedback. 

As you can plainly see, I am in fact dealing with the feedback just fine, and have had multiple productive conversations with people who have come to this thread to give constructive feedback. You, so far, have been the only exception, because as already pointed out, your feedback isn't constructive, and your goal here isn't to be constructive, but to try to shut down conversation. Allow me to remind you again that the guide I linked to you clearly indicates that not all feedback is created equal, and that you have a responsibility to be constructive and respectful of others. If you cannot do either, let alone both, please refrain from posting until you can.

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Did the starchart rework include major revisions to the mod system, frames and their abilities and the entire combat system overall? Yes or no? 

Yes, one of them did, actually. Did you forget that Specters of the Rail overhauled Archwing, the Void, and the market, in addition to giving us kavats, melee holstering, and a ton of new mods? These are, by the way, but a few of the changes made with the update, as there were also massive rebalances to Conclave and PvE weapons. May I ask why you chose to narrow the list I gave down to star chart reworks, when several other updates such as Parkour 2.0 and Melee 3.0 also did the same?

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Did the operator and focus rework include major revisions to the mod system, frames and their abilities and the entire combat system overall? Yes or no? 

Yes, actually, the updates that gave us Focus 2.0 and 2.5 had a significant impact on frames and their abilities, and completely changed our combat. May I ask why you're specifying "the mod system, frames and their abilities and the entire combat system overall" when the game's updates have historically touched on many more aspects of Warframe?

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Did any of these reworks simplify the game to mobile game kindergarten levels? 

Nope. Does my proposal simplify the game to "mobile game kindergarten levels" and if so, why? Does that make every other shooter in history with even simpler damage systems "mobile game kindergarten levels"?

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Once again: how do you know most players aren't using finishers? How do you know what they find time consuming? Once a player turns on the solo mode or invite only option, you know you can't see them, correct? Where's the data coming from? Do you have access to DEs internal data? 

You can find plenty of accounts of players listing the exact same criticisms, as well as look at pretty much all records of gameplay on YouTube and similar services, all of which show finishers are hardly, if ever used. Given your strong disagreement here, do you have any substantive evidence opposing what I'm saying?

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A single mod that gives consistent invisibility is leagues easier than setting up a finisher, using a specific weapon and a specific arcane or companion. It will easily become a meta, and you're feigning ignorance if you're ignoring this. I don't have to use a skia or get an arcane or a companion, all I have to do is get a critical and that's it. Even rolling guard has a 7 second cooldown. Common sense. 

It seems more like nonsense, given that mod slots are known for being more valuable on frames than arcanes, let alone weapons or companions. Dedicating an entire warframe mod slot to anything means sacrificing that space for mods that offer more durability and stronger abilities, which is why mods like Rolling Guard are so niche they're usually picked consistently on just a single frame, if that (in this particular case, Limbo). In other words, not only would it be more difficult to constantly maintain invisibility through my mod compared to other options due to its much shorter duration, my mod would also be more expensive to equip than the rest. I encourage you to take a non-Exilus mod out of a fully-built frame such as Mesa or Rhino, and see how that compares to playing them with one less arcane.

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Once again, the game provides you with enough data to see how crits work. Every weapon has a description of its base stats and shows how those stats are altered when a mod is applied like point Strike. This is why the number turns green when point Strike is added. Are you suggesting merely having to read a mods stats and a weapons stats is too complicated and warrants such a massive change to the game? It would be much simpler to just add the data into the game so you no longer have an excuse. "The game didn't tell me so completely change it to my system" is terrible reasoning for your rework.

You literally just tried to use the wiki as an example of how the game provides "enough data" on how crits work, so you are blatantly lying here in a manner so obvious I'm baffled by how you're expecting to convince anyone with this. I challenge you to list where the game lists the exact formula for crit tiers and the damage those tiers deal, because so far you've been relying on the wiki for that kind of info, right down to one of their illustrations that the game doesn't provide, and proving me right the entire time. As already said, there are many more reasons to changing those damage multiplier systems than mere lack of information, so keeping at that straw man after getting called out on it just further underlines the bad faith in which you're arguing.

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The game is intuitive by adding descriptions for every item and ability in the game.

That's not what "intuitive" means, and I think one of the underlying issues here seems to be that you're running on a personal definition of "intuitive" that differs heavily from its general use. Allow me to eliminate the ambiguity by presenting you with the actual definition:

intuitive (comparative more intuitive, superlative most intuitive)

  1. Spontaneous, without requiring conscious thought. quotations ▼
    The intuitive response turned out to be correct.
  2. Easily understood or grasped by intuition.

As you can now see, something that is intuitive does not need any significant amount of explanation to be understood. If the game has to describe something to the player in detail in order for the thing to make sense, that thing is by definition not intuitive.

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If a player can't put 2 and 2 together and think "I wonder if I can use arcane avenger and harrow to see what happens with this weapon" then that's not the games fault. The player is going to have to read and explore no matter what, whether it's an ability description, mod description, or weapon description. 

Actually, it is, Arcane Avenger in particular is known for scaling additively with native crit chance, rather than multiplicatively, which is not how most other crit mechanics work, and isn't listed as part of the arcane's description. At this point you're just blaming players for not doing in-depth testing or consulting the wiki just to obtain basic information.

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Once again, what is your "evidence and analysis extending beyond my own personal experience"? You just made the claim....  but didn't present anything....All you've said was "the game doesn't tell the player anything" cool, quick fix.

You just listed an easily demonstrable claim I made as an example of something unfounded. Are you sure you understand how burden of proof works? Need I remind you that I also asked you to substantiate your claims, which so far you have still refused to do.

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"There's no build diversity" when there's 45 frames that all do unique and different things for the variety of missions and game modes we have an a vast array of different build and mod combinations, to which you want to admittedly pigeonhole by "condensing everything" to be "much simpler".

Invoking frames is a rather strange move to make in a discussion discussing the modding options on weapons, as doing so carries strictly no relevance to the subject matter. It's almost as if you're aware that weapon modding has no real build diversity (something my changes would help address), but for the sake of not losing face still decided to pick a red herring in lieu of a valid response you are unable to give.

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And fyi, you show a huge lack of knowledge when you claim the proboscis Cernos is an average weapon and think it's completely ok to give an AOE weapon with very high base status and innate viral and slash damage an incredibly easy way to proc crits, completely disregarding that it was designed to make the user work for said crits. Do you think it was some random accident that the weapon has low base crit? 

Likely so, actually, and I think this little bit of text is itself a clear example of you arguing from ignorance, and projecting your own ignorance onto others. Your claims about numbers are ultimately made in a vacuum, and are completely meaningless as a result. By contrast, actual statistics from Warframe's official 2020 stats show the Proboscis Cernos has a 0.38% pick rate, and is thus distinctly middle of the road across all primary weapons, thereby supporting my claim that it is mediocre. This is, by the way, how backing up one's statements works. I encourage you to learn from this, so that you too may avoid making any further baseless claims in the future, or at least start by producing some substance to your claims beyond just "this is how I feel, and what I feel must be objectively true".

Edited by Teridax68
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Hi all,

Just a reminder that this is the feedback forum which is for providing feedback and not for arguing amongst each other about the feedback.

Let's keep it civil and respectful please.

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"Invoking frames is a rather strange move to make in a discussion discussing the modding options on weapons, as doing so carries strictly no relevance to the subject matter. It's almost as if you're aware that weapon modding has no real build diversity (something my changes would help address), but for the sake of not losing face still decided to pick a red herring in lieu of a valid response you are unable to give."

So you didn't say this? 

"And given that Inaros's passive currently works off of finishers, one could very well have it work off of melee crits instead, or even just make it a part of his 1."

Did you not invoke a frame change to fit into your updates narrative? Yes or no? 

"You can find plenty of accounts of players listing the exact same criticisms, as well as look at pretty much all records of gameplay on YouTube and similar services, all of which show finishers are hardly, if ever used. Given your strong disagreement here, do you have any substantive evidence opposing what I'm saying?"

You can also find plenty of accounts of players listing the exact opposite criticisms. The game has been dumbed down enough, and people like the large immersive world that warframe provides. We're also not using youtubers to change the game. Youtubers have already been caught in plenty of compromising positions....do we really need to go over this? Admitting exaggerating to get views....the simple fact that their videos are based on monetization which already compromises their positions, feigning ignorance and ability to perform tasks to make something appear more worse than it is etc. 

Intuition is subjective....as some players think it's intuitive to sit in a cubby hole spamming khoras whip for Steel essence, which was swiftly corrected.....and others think it's intuitive to read and learn learn about the game to become better at it. 

Once again, I've already said multiple times an easy, non game-wide changing fix would be adding more information into the game so you have no excuse to keep using the "but the game didn't tell me" excuse. I literally said the game doesn't have certain information in it....so they should add it....should I bold this part of the text for you?

Do you realize the Proboscis Cernos was recently released? Are you really gonna try that? Here's an idea....an intuitive idea....how about you wait until enough data is gathered on the proboscis Cernos to see how the community responds to it before rushing to judgment? My intuition told me it's a weapon with great potential....but I had other things to do in the game and haven't had time to acquire it and put multiple forma in it. And I'm sure others are in the same position, "based on evidence and analysis extending beyond my personal experience".

40 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

T

 

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59 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

if you're designing an enemy with a head, players are going to try shooting the head on instinct, so while adding some protections to play around could be fine, if that's not supposed to be a weak point, that raises the question of why the enemy has a head at all.

that's exactly what makes it change things up - the Player goes to shoot it in the Head expecting it to vaporize like the rest of the dudes, and instead they get a surprise and they just Damage the Armored Helmet instead. they can either seek a different part to attack, or break through that Helmet to Kill it the same way if they insist on doing it that way.
which is then quite like the Nox, just without the Body also being Armored.

and why the Enemy has a Head to begin with then, is because this isn't a Horror game! :^D

1 hour ago, Teridax68 said:

if it's relatively simple stuff like "your third consecutive attack against the same enemy induces bleed" versus "blocking with this rapier staggers the enemy; attacking the weapon of a staggered enemy disarms them", you could get some pretty distinct playstyles out of similar or identical attack animations. 

yeah, traits like that could work. i'm not sure that they replace having Stances, small traits versus Animation playstyles.

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19 minutes ago, taiiat said:

that's exactly what makes it change things up - the Player goes to shoot it in the Head expecting it to vaporize like the rest of the dudes, and instead they get a surprise and they just Damage the Armored Helmet instead. they can either seek a different part to attack, or break through that Helmet to Kill it the same way if they insist on doing it that way.
which is then quite like the Nox, just without the Body also being Armored.

Surprise only works once, though, and this is a game we're meant to replay pretty much endlessly, which is why I would prefer making the weak spot more difficult to hit, rather than disabling it or making it not worth the effort. Breaking through the Nox's dome to then hit his head is fine, because bodyshots otherwise don't do all that much by comparison. Making an enemy take as much time to kill whether one shoots the head or the rest of the body, on the other hand, just goes against what weak spots are intended to contribute.

19 minutes ago, taiiat said:

and why the Enemy has a Head to begin with then, is because this isn't a Horror game! :^D

I mean, Warframe does have a fair bit of body horror, plus plenty of humanoid-ish enemies whose "heads" aren't where they're supposed to be, so I'd say bring on the deformed monstrosities 😈

19 minutes ago, taiiat said:

yeah, traits like that could work. i'm not sure that they replace having Stances, small traits versus Animation playstyles.

Indeed, that level of discussion is likely best reserved for a thread dedicated to melee and how to go about changing it, plus there's plenty more than just one way of going about that too. In the broad lines, though, I'm 100% with you that we could use plenty more weapon-to-weapon differentiation, whether or not one keeps stances, and if one does, those should help enhance the differences between weapons of the same class rather than homogenize them.

27 minutes ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

"Invoking frames is a rather strange move to make in a discussion discussing the modding options on weapons, as doing so carries strictly no relevance to the subject matter. It's almost as if you're aware that weapon modding has no real build diversity (something my changes would help address), but for the sake of not losing face still decided to pick a red herring in lieu of a valid response you are unable to give."

So you didn't say this? 

"And given that Inaros's passive currently works off of finishers, one could very well have it work off of melee crits instead, or even just make it a part of his 1."

Did you not invoke a frame change to fit into your updates narrative? Yes or no? 

 

I did indeed say that and... no? I don't quite understand what you mean by "[my] update's narrative", as I mentioned Inaros specifically in response to someone bringing up his passive, and gave an explanation of how he could be adjusted in view of the changes I'm suggesting to retain it. None of that had anything to do with the build diversity of weapons, which you tried to argue had diverse builds by bringing up frames, itself a complete non-sequitur. I would advise you give up this line of argumentation, as it has little to do with the subject of crit itself and the manner in which I'm suggesting to change it.

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"You can find plenty of accounts of players listing the exact same criticisms, as well as look at pretty much all records of gameplay on YouTube and similar services, all of which show finishers are hardly, if ever used. Given your strong disagreement here, do you have any substantive evidence opposing what I'm saying?"

You can also find plenty of accounts of players listing the exact opposite criticisms.

Where?

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The game has been dumbed down enough, and people like the large immersive world that warframe provides. We're also not using youtubers to change the game.

I'm not just talking about YouTubers, though, I'm talking about anyone who has ever recorded themselves playing Warframe. I don't think the game has been "dumbed down enough" at all, and in fact I agree with many others that the game has many more systems than it properly makes use of. 

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Youtubers have already been caught in plenty of compromising positions....do we really need to go over this? Admitting exaggerating to get views....the simple fact that their videos are based on monetization which already compromises their positions, feigning ignorance and ability to perform tasks to make something appear more worse than it is etc. 

I'm not quite sure how attacking the character of YouTubers really has to do with the fact that there is a lot of footage of people playing Warframe, and virtually none of it shows people consistently using finishers. I would advise you to please try to remain on-topic.

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Intuition is subjective....as some players think it's intuitive to sit in a cubby hole spamming khoras whip for Steel essence, which was swiftly corrected.....and others think it's intuitive to read and learn learn about the game to become better at it. 

The subjectivity of intuition is irrelevant to the fact that you tried to claim that a game system was intuitive because the game (or was it the wiki? You weren't too clear on that) textually describes how the system works. That is not what "intuitive" means, and while intuition is subjective, what intuition means is not. By your own implicit admission, the systems being discussed are not intuitive.

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Once again, I've already said multiple times an easy, non game-wide changing fix would be adding more information into the game so you have no excuse to keep using the "but the game didn't tell me" excuse. I literally said the game doesn't have certain information in it....so they should add it....should I bold this part of the text for you?

Please do if you fancy, and better yet, please explain how adding more information to the game would make the systems in question more intuitive, which as outlined above is not a problem solved by adding more descriptive text. In the meantime, feel free to refer to the critique suggestion of my thread's original post which, as stated already, lists many more reasons to change the systems being discussed beyond just counter-intuitive design, as the "fix" you are proposing here would not address those criticisms at all.

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Do you realize the Proboscis Cernos was recently released? Are you really gonna try that? Here's an idea....an intuitive idea....how about you wait until enough data is gathered on the proboscis Cernos to see how the community responds to it before rushing to judgment?

Yes, actually, because the Proboscis Cernos had plenty of time to make its mark, and clearly didn't. The Ignis Wraith and Kuva Bramma both immediately became top picks shortly after their release, and generated a lot of discussion around them. The Proboscis Cernos? Nothing.

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My intuition told me it's a weapon with great potential....but I had other things to do in the game and haven't had time to acquire it and put multiple forma in it. And I'm sure others are in the same position, "based on evidence and analysis extending beyond my personal experience".

This is literally anecdotal evidence. You are arguing against statistical data by citing your own personal experience, then projecting it onto everyone else without anything to back you up, and I see no reason to care about that. Even more interesting is that you also just accidentally revealed you're arguing over a weapon you haven't even played yet. I, by contrast, built and ranked the weapon to 30 pretty much as soon as Deimos Arcana launched, and I can confirm to you that the weapon is nothing spectacular. Please at least try the weapon out before arguing how good it is.

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12 minutes ago, taiiat said:

that's exactly what makes it change things up - the Player goes to shoot it in the Head expecting it to vaporize like the rest of the dudes, and instead they get a surprise and they just Damage the Armored Helmet instead. they can either seek a different part to attack, or break through that Helmet to Kill it the same way if they insist on doing it that way.
which is then quite like the Nox, just without the Body also being Armored.

and why the Enemy has a Head to begin with then, is because this isn't a Horror game! :^D

I kind thing this whole discussion comes down to visual clarity and lack of gameplay purpose

 

. The fanny pack on moas does a terrible job as looking like a weak spot and moas ( in general ) have such low EHP that people don't even know they have weakspots.  Would I find weird that the head is not thr weak spot for this guy ? 

image-1024x576.jpg

No.

Is a desing like this far-fetched for warframe ? 

No 

Something like that would fit for a ghoul.

 

However thr problem lies on DE not really thinking about the weak spot problem and throwing not exactly intuitive weakspots and not really giving alternative.

For examples, Corpus sends a mixed message because you have to shoot the head to bypass the shield gate but thr head is the only amored part on a crewman. It's not like they have a shield projector on the side you can shoot instead. 

Another example is the grineer and their imunity to headajots exept from the front. It's not like we can shoot the unrelated blunts to send they flying if we engage from behind

25 minutes ago, taiiat said:

yeah, traits like that could work. i'm not sure that they replace having Stances, small traits versus Animation playstyles.

I kinda think melee was ruined by trying harder to look cool them have a gameplay loop. Combo never worked as indented ( build up combo,  pay-off on charge attack ) since charge attack builds mostly ignore thr build up part and spam build ignore the whole actually use the combo instead off building it up endlessly.

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2 minutes ago, keikogi said:

However thr problem lies on DE not really thinking about the weak spot problem and throwing not exactly intuitive weakspots and not really giving alternative.

For examples, Corpus sends a mixed message because you have to shoot the head to bypass the shield gate but thr head is the only amored part on a crewman. It's not like they have a shield projector on the side you can shoot instead. 

Another example is the grineer and their imunity to headajots exept from the front. It's not like we can shoot the unrelated blunts to send they flying if we engage from behind

I agree with this; I think at the heart of the issue is that weak points were never particularly solidly implemented, because Warframe's core enemies are mostly cookie-cutter mooks that nearly all have the same height, whose combination of models and weak point hitboxes do not lend themselves to the most interesting play. If those units were to receive a redo, to an even greater extent than we've seen with the newer Corpus sub-factions, that would already pave the way towards more interesting ways to shoot enemies in the head, among other spots.

2 minutes ago, keikogi said:

I kinda think melee was ruined by trying harder to look cool them have a gameplay loop. Combo never worked as indented ( build up combo,  pay-off on charge attack ) since charge attack builds mostly ignore thr build up part and spam build ignore the whole actually use the combo instead off building it up endlessly.

I agree, I think it's clear that a large part of our new melee system came from someone in a position of power playing the new Devil May Cry, having fun with the juggling there, and deciding Warframe should have the same thing. This is also, by the way, not the first time that kind of thing has happened, as many features in Warframe are clearly lifted from other games despite not fitting its gameplay at all. Honestly, I think most of our melee mechanics are actually kind of pointless and often get in the way, and I'd be happy to pare those down and instead look for ways to make melee engaging and capable of rewarding skill, rather than spam.

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18 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

Warframe's core enemies are mostly cookie-cutter mooks that nearly all have the same height, whose combination of models and weak point hitboxes do not lend themselves to the most interesting play.

I am of the impression that if most basic melee enemies were removed from the game, it would be to the game's benefit. Melee is so strong in our hands because:

  • Our melee has very high base stats across the board
  • High mobility, either through combos, or user input
  • abilities to boost stats or mobility, either in weapons or from our Warframe. 

Which makes the fact that these basic enemies deal paper cut damage in response kind of jarring, backed up by a fairly slow attack speed, next to no abilities and low mobility.

It doesn't really fit my idea of a power fantasy to slaughter rabble.

Edited by Teoarrk
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1 minute ago, Teoarrk said:

I am of the impression that if most basic melee enemies were removed from the game, it would be to the game's benefit. Melee is so strong in our hands because:

  • Our melee has very high base stats across the board
  • High mobility, either through combos, or user input
  • abilities to boost stats or mobility, either in weapons or from our Warframe. 

Which makes the fact that these basic enemies deal paper cut damage in response kind of jarring, backed up by a fairly slow attack speed, next to no abilities and low mobility.

This is a fair point, Butchers especially are quite possibly the most pathetic enemies in the game, and the Infested are still arguably the game's weakest faction despite having their damage doubled in a relatively recent update. For the latter, I think the key problems are numbers and speed, in that the Infested ought to be almost this living sea of claws and fangs advancing at terrifying speeds across the floor, walls, and ceilings, yet often at best we get a kind of trickle. They need to have their movement speed drastically increased, and could benefit significantly from the ability to scale vertical surfaces, even if that may be technically difficult to implement.

As for non-Infested melee enemies such as Butchers and Prod Crewmen, I think they should at least be more durable than their ranged counterparts (it certainly doesn't make sense for them to be squishier), and they could probably stand to have more tools than just a melee weapon. At least Scorpions and Powerfists have some tricks up their sleeve, and I like that Vapos Nullifiers are melee by nature as well. It could help to give them gapclosing moves as well, whatever allows them to actually make themselves a thread for however little time, instead of getting mowed down long before they can deal even a point of damage to the player.

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