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I recently thought back of my time as a beginner.

Then I played a rescue and remembered how much differently I soloed them: Firstly, I had no clue that the rescued specters teleport along with you and, secondly, hat you can revive them once downed. So I remeber that I did run them superslowly, shut down alarms, walked from corner to corner and tried to get the rescue target to the extraction point in one piece. That actually was quite of a mission I only played once I felt like ready for it. Now it's just like any other:

Press 2 on Kong, get to the cells, press 4 for autohack (Hemlinth'd) and then 2 to the exit as the target just 'ports along. No challenge, just speed runs and no big difference to spy or extermination etc.

 

That now ain't popular I guess, but

I kind of prefer rescues to move on their own and only continue once there is no gunfire. Similar to polyp-juggernauts. That wouldn't make them more challenging, but feel a lot more logical and make me play differently. I might then actually bring a Zephyr, Oberon, or Limbo, or whatever then instead of speedrun Kong, similar to Arbitration defenses. They also wouldn't take that much longer, like 1-3 minutes more.

 

 

On the yesterdays SP incursion was Lua spy. I haven't played that for a long while and started forgetting I was on solo after playing a couple exploiter / profit taker / eidolons. I thought 'just run through it' and was like 'ehm, what to do' on the first vault. Took me a little longer than the usual few minutes and it was nice. I mean games are supposed to get harder and should ask for minimal thinking once you advance, or am I wrong? It was real nice getting through all the 3 vaults. It was a lot different to the T1-T3 speedruns and at sometimes I thought like 'holy moly how to get there' running backwards, forwards checking for holes in the walls :)

Can we have more advanced spy missions in general? I'd even like a no mods challenge for Pavlov, but with serious rewards if you make all 3 vaults and even more so on a starter frame :)

 

 

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1 hour ago, BesucherPrime said:

That now ain't popular I guess, but

I kind of prefer rescues to move on their own and only continue once there is no gunfire. Similar to polyp-juggernauts. That wouldn't make them more challenging, but feel a lot more logical and make me play differently. I might then actually bring a Zephyr, Oberon, or Limbo, or whatever then instead of speedrun Kong, similar to Arbitration defenses. They also wouldn't take that much longer, like 1-3 minutes more.

You are in luck! There already is a mission type in-game that's exactly what you want Rescue to be! That mission type is called "Defection".

It embodies everything that's wrong with the classic "escort" mission type from older games: Slow-moving defence targets with very little health, that either get stuck due to bad pathfinding or do their best to get away from you and go hang out in a crowd of enemies that are trying to kill them.

There's a reason Harrow was one of the warframes given out as Twitch drops when Helminth was being released and everyone needed a second copy of everything! Turning the rescue missions we currently have into a complete mess similar to Defections would not improve anyone's experience!

1 hour ago, BesucherPrime said:

Can we have more advanced spy missions in general? I'd even like a no mods challenge for Pavlov, but with serious rewards if you make all 3 vaults and even more so on a starter frame :)

More involved spy missions would be nice - having the same 3-4 vault types (per faction) on all planets is a bit boring. However, I would not aim for making them Lua-level. I would instead go for something closer to the Jupiter spy mission. While the puzzle aspect of the Lua spy mission is more interesting the first few times you run it, it gets tedious after you've run it a few times and learned the solution. Making the new vaults a bit more technical (like the Jupiter ones) makes a better experience for missions you repeat over and over again.

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hace 2 horas, (NSW)BalticBarbarian dijo:

It embodies everything that's wrong with the classic "escort" mission type from older games: Slow-moving defence targets with very little health, that either get stuck due to bad pathfinding or do their best to get away from you and go hang out in a crowd of enemies that are trying to kill them.

It won't be called "Rescue" for nothing, I mean sure the AI is bs but fixing that would be what a rescue should: A godlike being taking a prisioner that is most likely withouth armour and wounded to say the least.

Defection is a piece of crap but consideratig that (on the lore) almost no one could survive the infested so the only problem should be the AI

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1 hour ago, VoidArkhangel said:

A godlike being taking a prisioner that is most likely withouth armour and wounded to say the least.

Looking at it from this point of view, said godlike being would probably just sling the prisoner over his shoulder and leg it to extraction at full speed (any extra bruises would be handled by the medical team waiting in the extraction craft). Grendel might be able to use an "alternative" method of carrying the prisoner.

So this might suggest restricting some weapon/ability use during that stage (like when carrying a datamass) for one of the squad members, not much more. Still a long way away from what the OP suggested.

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hace 33 minutos, (NSW)BalticBarbarian dijo:

Looking at it from this point of view, said godlike being would probably just sling the prisoner over his shoulder and leg it to extraction at full speed (any extra bruises would be handled by the medical team waiting in the extraction craft). Grendel might be able to use an "alternative" method of carrying the prisoner.

Not at all, we get a couple shots in the way to extraction to say the least (using other abilities but Rift and Nezha's 2 will most likely kill the target) so it would be better to just clear the path for the target much like on some missions of PAYDAY 2.

AAAand, as you saw in the Second Dream, the warframe is not strong enough to do a bullet jump while carrying someone, maybe this could be a special animation for some warframe or something like that but is worse than just shoot/slash your way through with your primary or your melee.

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43 minutes ago, VoidArkhangel said:

Not at all, we get a couple shots in the way to extraction to say the least (using other abilities but Rift and Nezha's 2 will most likely kill the target) so it would be better to just clear the path for the target much like on some missions of PAYDAY 2

Shields can be extended onto the target in the same way as a sentinel (with the Sanctuary mod) can extend its shields over you. And warframes (except maybe Valkyr) seem to be sufficiently in control of their abilities to make sure their use does not hurt their allies (otherwise we'd be killing each other's Kavats all the time).

53 minutes ago, VoidArkhangel said:

AAAand, as you saw in the Second Dream, the warframe is not strong enough to do a bullet jump while carrying someone,

My interpretation of that cinematic/sequence was that transference was barely working. That would be why it could barely walk, not to mention bullet jump. Carrying someone had nothing to do with it.

In terms of carrying a load, it is worth noting that the warframe's standard carrying load includes a battalion's worth of ammo and supplies (200 pizzas of each type), a truck's worth of resources collected during the mission, enough fish to feed a small town and an archwing in the back pocket. And while carrying all that, the warframe can easily juggle a Nox with its sword. Suggesting that carrying another human would make the warframe too heavy to run or jump sounds a bit silly.

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hace 5 horas, (NSW)BalticBarbarian dijo:

Shields can be extended onto the target in the same way as a sentinel (with the Sanctuary mod) can extend its shields over you. And warframes (except maybe Valkyr) seem to be sufficiently in control of their abilities to make sure their use does not hurt their allies (otherwise we'd be killing each other's Kavats all the time).

Sentinels can't do that, they "overclock" your shield systems and no, the warframes have not enough control to target allies and that's why we don't kill each others pets we can't target them. Here are some examples:

Grendel can speed up the diggestion process but he can't stop it, if he could stop it then the ability wont cost energy at all.

Wukong cannot lift a thing while in cloud mode because doing so would imply having a vulnerable part.

Gauss armor is designed for high temperatures so the friction of lets say air can't "melt" him

hace 6 horas, (NSW)BalticBarbarian dijo:

My interpretation of that cinematic/sequence was that transference was barely working. That would be why it could barely walk, not to mention bullet jump. Carrying someone had nothing to do with it.

Yeah now that I think of it, they can lift things like the Mausolon and the Bubonico so you've got a point there.

hace 6 horas, (NSW)BalticBarbarian dijo:

In terms of carrying a load, it is worth noting that the warframe's standard carrying load includes a battalion's worth of ammo and supplies (200 pizzas of each type), a truck's worth of resources collected during the mission, enough fish to feed a small town and an archwing in the back pocket. And while carrying all that, the warframe can easily juggle a Nox with its sword.

I don't think this is how it works, I believe that has to do with a pocket dimension, a tiny bit of void where they can keep their tools and the archwing is deployed directly from the landing craft much like the mechs.

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7 hours ago, VoidArkhangel said:

Sentinels can't do that, they "overclock" your shield systems

You might want to read the mod description: the sentinel "Creates a shield around the player" (mod "Sanctuary"). You are confusing it with the other mod - "Guardian".

8 hours ago, VoidArkhangel said:

the warframes have not enough control to target allies and that's why we don't kill each others pets we can't target them.

Sorry, this doesn't make much sense. Say I'm Ember and I cast Fire Blast. It sweeps through everything around me, destroying/damaging stuff. Yet there is an allied Kavat standing next to me and it doesn't get damaged.

Why is the Kavat excluded from being damaged (not mechanically, lore-wise)? Presumably because the ability is controlled sufficiently well to exclude allies from damage dealt by it. Why is said Kavat not affected by my Saryn's spores, while Grineer Kavats (Hyekkas) are? Why is it not getting pulled into my Vauban's black hole?

Similarly for buffing abilities: why are my allies affected, but the enemies next to them not?

8 hours ago, VoidArkhangel said:

Wukong cannot lift a thing while in cloud mode because doing so would imply having a vulnerable part.

This one was so strange (I play a lot of Wukong, would have noticed this by now) I actually had to experiment: took Wukong to an Excavation, grabbed a power cell, went into Cloud Walker. When I came back to solid, I'm still holding the power cell. So your statement is just plain wrong.

8 hours ago, VoidArkhangel said:

I don't think this is how it works, I believe that has to do with a pocket dimension, a tiny bit of void where they can keep their tools and the archwing is deployed directly from the landing craft much like the mechs.

So a warframe can manipulate pocket dimensions but cannot run/jump while carrying a man in a Fireman's carry? That doesn't sound right at all!

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vor 21 Stunden schrieb (NSW)BalticBarbarian:

You are in luck! There already is a mission type in-game that's exactly what you want Rescue to be! That mission type is called "Defection".

I actually find hijack to be more rescue style, for the escorting part XD


 

vor 21 Stunden schrieb (NSW)BalticBarbarian:

While the puzzle aspect of the Lua spy mission is more interesting the first few times you run it, it gets tedious after you've run it a few times and learned the solution

That is a thing. I'd prefer 'challenge'-modes to grind, similar to SPs increased drop chances. Like have harder modes that provide higher chances / more rewards. I'd prefer something harder that takes on average 5 times as long as an easy version with a good chance (50%) of failure to 10 easy-peasy rush through runs. Feels also better on the reward page with a massive amount of stuff, even though it would be the same on average as for a rush-throughable difficulty. But, I guess, this is by far not the style at the current state...

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1 hour ago, BesucherPrime said:

I'd prefer something harder that takes on average 5 times as long as an easy version with a good chance (50%) of failure to 10 easy-peasy rush through runs.

Except the Lua spy mission doesn't really pose a challenge either (if you do it regularly). Platforming-wise, it's pretty trivial. And the "puzzle" aspect is only there the first 5 times you do it - after that you will have simply learned the steps. Puzzles, by their definition, are only puzzling until you know the solution. And Warframe is a game where we repeat any given mission over and over and over again - long past the point where we know the solution to even the most vexing of puzzles.

I agree that it would be good to have more challenging spy missions Ideally, with better rewards. But it should not be a "puzzle"-type challenge like we have in Lua - those stop being a challenge too quickly. It should lean towards being a platforming-type challenge instead (Warframe's movement system would definitely support some decent platforming). And a small step in that direction can be seen in the Jupiter (not Lua) spy mission.

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We are on the same page here, I just have been unclear :)

 

I haven't played Jupiter spy for a while and don't remember the incursion in particular, but have finished that already. I think it was the one where the SP-essence donator spawned just before hacking a vault right next to it, so I forgot about the rest. Will check that once more, likely tomorrow.

 

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hace 6 horas, (NSW)BalticBarbarian dijo:

You might want to read the mod description: the sentinel "Creates a shield around the player" (mod "Sanctuary"). You are confusing it with the other mod - "Guardian".

Right, I was indeed confusing with Shield Charger, anyways Sentinels will not be able to do this since that shield is pretty weak and is stationary for what we see with that mod.

hace 6 horas, (NSW)BalticBarbarian dijo:

Sorry, this doesn't make much sense. Say I'm Ember and I cast Fire Blast. It sweeps through everything around me, destroying/damaging stuff. Yet there is an allied Kavat standing next to me and it doesn't get damaged.

Why is the Kavat excluded from being damaged (not mechanically, lore-wise)? Presumably because the ability is controlled sufficiently well to exclude allies from damage dealt by it. Why is said Kavat not affected by my Saryn's spores, while Grineer Kavats (Hyekkas) are? Why is it not getting pulled into my Vauban's black hole?

Similarly for buffing abilities: why are my allies affected, but the enemies next to them not?

Because we can't target them, and this is pretty different from what I was talking none of those abilities could help with carrying the prisoner and I was talking about abilities that could be used for carrying someone. 

How does the target system works lorewise? Idk, why when you shoot a missile next to your mates only you get staggered?

hace 6 horas, (NSW)BalticBarbarian dijo:

This one was so strange (I play a lot of Wukong, would have noticed this by now) I actually had to experiment: took Wukong to an Excavation, grabbed a power cell, went into Cloud Walker. When I came back to solid, I'm still holding the power cell. So your statement is just plain wrong.

Are you aware that the cell is a thing and not a being, right? My statement is true until you show me that Wukong can turn another being (not his pet) into a cloud.

And before you ask, you can convert both but that doesn't mean that the being will survive the transformation.

hace 6 horas, (NSW)BalticBarbarian dijo:

So a warframe can manipulate pocket dimensions but cannot run/jump while carrying a man in a Fireman's carry? That doesn't sound right at all!

Read everything god dammit XD :

hace 15 horas, VoidArkhangel dijo:

Yeah now that I think of it, they can lift things like the Mausolon and the Bubonico so you've got a point there.

 

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6 hours ago, VoidArkhangel said:

Because we can't target them, and this is pretty different from what I was talking none of those abilities could help with carrying the prisoner and I was talking about abilities that could be used for carrying someone. 

How does the target system works lorewise? Idk, why when you shoot a missile next to your mates only you get staggered?

Can you currently target the rescue target with weapons or damaging abilities? Don't think so! (unless under radiation proc). I just did a "protect the idiot" sortie defence earlier today as Vauban, and the target did not get sucked into the black hole (collapsed bastille). Then using abilities while carrying them should not be a problem either (according to your own logic)!

Your opposition to the idea seemed to be not in the range of in-game mechanics, but in the range of lore (or game world logic). I am giving you a similar example (allied kavat in the path of a Fire Blast) that suggests the carried prisoner should be OK from that point of view. If you want to oppose the idea from the position of lore (as you have been), you really need to think of a distinction between the two situation in terms of lore. "idk" doesn't really cut it.

6 hours ago, VoidArkhangel said:

Are you aware that the cell is a thing and not a being, right? My statement is true until you show me that Wukong can turn another being (not his pet) into a cloud.

And before you ask, you can convert both but that doesn't mean that the being will survive the transformation.

From the point of view of physics, there is no real difference between a person and an object. Matter is matter. If you want organic matter - consider all the various thing we need to pick up and carry during iso vaults and arcana bounties on Deimos. Pretty sure you could even pick up and carry the bomb in the "pit" bonus room in the Iso vaults while using Cloud Walker (without the bomb blowing up - unless the timer runs out).

And the fact that power cells, datamases, etc. still function after Cloud Walker transformations, suggests that the objects don't encounter any significant stresses - things like power cells and organic explosives tend to be quite sensitive and tend to complain with a loud "boom".

 

Come to think about it, here's another example: capture targets (in capture missions). We know they don't exactly come willingly, and we know they get to our base alive (Lotus makes sure to stress that requirement). Looking at the capture animation, it doesn't look like a bunch of NPCs/Drones show up to take them off our hands (like with conservation targets) - instead, they seem to get dematerialised for easier handling (maybe that pocket dimension you've been talking about). And you can very much use Cloud Walker (or any other ability) after capturing the target this way - and without killing him in the process.

 

6 hours ago, VoidArkhangel said:

anyways Sentinels will not be able to do this

My argument was never "Sentinels can do it" - my argument was "warframe shields could be extended". Especially to something that close to the warframe's body. That is certainly happening with all sorts of weapons we are carrying - otherwise you'd often find that your primary gun is no longer operational because it got hit by a stray bullet/grenade/rocket/laser/tentacle (a couple dozen times).

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Jupiter spy is nice, it was in the incursions today, so I decided going it solo and check it out. A real gem. Got a Misery in vault, which was the one with the rotating rays in the center and the foogy floor.

I would really like more of that.

 

What I ment with 'challenges' would be like on top, that you can select like 'challenges' like we have Nightmare Mode / Steel Path etc. But not limited to a single one, which in turn alter the mission reward table probabilities. As a quick draft we could run like a spy on 'no mods + radiation hazard + whatever' and get like double the reward chances for each vault (that'd mean also 2 items per vault). This would result in less repitition but longer runs, but you still could do it normally. Would require some monitoring on mission average reward speeds per mode rebalancing from time to time, but that'd be a nice concept

 

 

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hace 17 horas, (NSW)BalticBarbarian dijo:

Can you currently target the rescue target with weapons or damaging abilities? Don't think so! (unless under radiation proc). I just did a "protect the idiot" sortie defence earlier today as Vauban, and the target did not get sucked into the black hole (collapsed bastille). Then using abilities while carrying them should not be a problem either (according to your own logic)!

Your opposition to the idea seemed to be not in the range of in-game mechanics, but in the range of lore (or game world logic). I am giving you a similar example (allied kavat in the path of a Fire Blast) that suggests the carried prisoner should be OK from that point of view. If you want to oppose the idea from the position of lore (as you have been), you really need to think of a distinction between the two situation in terms of lore. "idk" doesn't really cut it.

Right... so you proved my point since afair Vauban doesn't have a "carry the idiot" animation so you were casting Vortex while the target was fooling around just how I said it.

Why the hell should I disagree in "the range of game mechanics"? I don't, I like the idea of grabbing those idiots like a Lunaro and go the extraction like that but I like a coherent story the most = a good lore that reflects on the game mechanics, doesn't happen always since main characters are OP and showing that in-game will be more like a interactive movie.

When I say "idk" is because we don't f*cking know. Do you know how the friendly fire switch works lorewise? And I mean when you direclty shoot your mate in the head and the bullet connects. Why they don't take damage?

hace 18 horas, (NSW)BalticBarbarian dijo:

From the point of view of physics, there is no real difference between a person and an object. Matter is matter. If you want organic matter - consider all the various thing we need to pick up and carry during iso vaults and arcana bounties on Deimos. Pretty sure you could even pick up and carry the bomb in the "pit" bonus room in the Iso vaults while using Cloud Walker (without the bomb blowing up - unless the timer runs out).

And the fact that power cells, datamases, etc. still function after Cloud Walker transformations, suggests that the objects don't encounter any significant stresses - things like power cells and organic explosives tend to be quite sensitive and tend to complain with a loud "boom".

 

Come to think about it, here's another example: capture targets (in capture missions). We know they don't exactly come willingly, and we know they get to our base alive (Lotus makes sure to stress that requirement). Looking at the capture animation, it doesn't look like a bunch of NPCs/Drones show up to take them off our hands (like with conservation targets) - instead, they seem to get dematerialised for easier handling (maybe that pocket dimension you've been talking about). And you can very much use Cloud Walker (or any other ability) after capturing the target this way - and without killing him in the process.

Just what I said again, capture targets experiments intense pain when they dematerialize (they scream) these commanders that don't even say a word when they are burning alive or melting down in acid, they scream at top of their lungs when you capture them and again read:

En 20/2/2021 a las 13:49, VoidArkhangel dijo:

And before you ask, you can convert both but that doesn't mean that the being will survive the transformation.

A circuit table is not the same of a living thing, even if we are able to dematerialize and materialize both, the living thing will get an amount of pain becuase it is getting destroyed and reformed to a cellular level.

hace 18 horas, (NSW)BalticBarbarian dijo:

My argument was never "Sentinels can do it" - my argument was "warframe shields could be extended". Especially to something that close to the warframe's body. That is certainly happening with all sorts of weapons we are carrying - otherwise you'd often find that your primary gun is no longer operational because it got hit by a stray bullet/grenade/rocket/laser/tentacle (a couple dozen times).

Right, our shields are up 100% of the time and the best example you could think of were of a different species.

Unless you are using Hyldrin this utterly wrong, weapons are not getting damaged because the enemies doesn't target them, how I know this? 

Spoiler

tumblr_oy9w94zg9z1weg6kfo1_1280.jpg

And we never actually saw a warframe sharing its shields (apart from Hyldrin) oh wait we actually saw it! They are fuel for the usurpation objectives...

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1 hour ago, VoidArkhangel said:

Right... so you proved my point since afair Vauban doesn't have a "carry the idiot" animation so you were casting Vortex while the target was fooling around just how I said it.

What are you on about? Of course there is no animation for a mechanic not currently in the game If the mechanic were to be introduced, so would an animation! The defence target not being affected by the vortex, however, is an example of it not being damaged by warframe abilities - hence negating one of your objections.

1 hour ago, VoidArkhangel said:

When I say "idk" is because we don't f*cking know. Do you know how the friendly fire switch works lorewise? And I mean when you direclty shoot your mate in the head and the bullet connects. Why they don't take damage?

Well, try making a conjecture! Or any sort of a guess! Or proposing something constructive at all. Your current position of "I don't know how this works but your suggestion is wrong because I say so" is not exactly conducive to a conversation!

1 hour ago, VoidArkhangel said:

Just what I said again, capture targets experiments intense pain when they dematerialize (they scream)

The voice lines just before them being captured suggest that they scream not because of the pain, but because of the fear. Chances are, they know exactly what kind of "enhanced interrogation" awaits them once Tenno capture them and bring them back to base.

1 hour ago, VoidArkhangel said:

A circuit table is not the same of a living thing, even if we are able to dematerialize and materialize both, the living thing will get an amount of pain becuase it is getting destroyed and reformed to a cellular level.

Actually, they are pretty close from the physics level. Especially the power cells - which would need to contain dynamic chemical processes to be functional (not that much different from the chemical processes inside living tissue). Whether or not pain is experienced would depend on the exact mechanism of dematerialisation. At the end of the day, pain is just a bunch of electric impulses, which the dematerialisation mechanism could easily block.

1 hour ago, VoidArkhangel said:

different species

Species of what? Sentinels are mechanical entities, and something a mechanical entity does can be reverse-engineered and adapted.

1 hour ago, VoidArkhangel said:

weapons are not getting damaged because the enemies doesn't target them

If when you play enemies always hit exactly what they are targeting, then you should start moving around more. Enemies tend to shoot in your general direction and be happy if they hit something before they are killed. With the sheer number of bullets flying our way, it should not be surprising if at least some of them hit the guns (which can occupy a fairly considerable amount of our body's surface area.

1 hour ago, VoidArkhangel said:

They are fuel for the usurpation objectives...

"usurpation"? Are you sure you are playing Warframe? No such mission exists in the game (or, according to the Wiki, has ever existed).

 

And if you REALLY insist of having an example of a Warframe using powers while carrying a living thing, try the following:

  1. Pick a Warframe whose powers you think would kill the carried living organism
  2. Go to the Plains of Eidolon
  3. Catch a fish. Note that the fish is not carried away by any sort of NPCs or drones (like a Conservation target). Therefore, you must be the one carrying it for the rest of the mission. Also note that the fish is injured (you stabbed it with a fishing spear!), unarmoured and generally uncomfortable (you could say it feels like a fish out of water!)
  4. Use any of the Warframe's powers (including those that would kill the carried organism).
  5. Go to Cetus, then to Orbiter.
  6. Put that fish into one of you Aquariums.

Result: Fish is swimming around and is generally alive. Which seems completely contrary to everything you've been saying.

Please note: I would appreciate if any criticism was actually lore-based and not just "idk".

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hace 17 horas, (NSW)BalticBarbarian dijo:

"usurpation"? Are you sure you are playing Warframe? No such mission exists in the game (or, according to the Wiki, has ever existed).

What was it called again? mmm.... Hijack

hace 17 horas, (NSW)BalticBarbarian dijo:

Species of what? Sentinels are mechanical entities, and something a mechanical entity does can be reverse-engineered and adapted.

Right...

Spoiler
Fragment Lore

On the border of chartered space, an enclave of small, strange, seemingly intelligent creatures was discovered by Tenno explorers. They are mechanical entities, almost organic in appearance, with a precarious resemblance to the fearsome Sentients that had decimated human civilization. Howevere, these creatures showed no signs of aggression, and they immediately began carrying out helpful tasks in peculiar alliance with the Tenno.

Sure

hace 17 horas, (NSW)BalticBarbarian dijo:

Actually, they are pretty close from the physics level. Especially the power cells - which would need to contain dynamic chemical processes to be functional (not that much different from the chemical processes inside living tissue). Whether or not pain is experienced would depend on the exact mechanism of dematerialisation. At the end of the day, pain is just a bunch of electric impulses, which the dematerialisation mechanism could easily block.

What makes a living thing a living thing phisially? Soul? Mind? I clearly said both can be deformed and reformed but the living thing could die during the process

You can block when deforming but when it is reformed?

The Oro will just float with you? Will dissapear?

Deforming a thing doesn't matter because it will most likely preserve its functions while a living thing may become just a thing after that and we don't want that do we?

hace 17 horas, (NSW)BalticBarbarian dijo:
  • Pick a Warframe whose powers you think would kill the carried living organism
  • Go to the Plains of Eidolon
  • Catch a fish. Note that the fish is not carried away by any sort of NPCs or drones (like a Conservation target). Therefore, you must be the one carrying it for the rest of the mission. Also note that the fish is injured (you stabbed it with a fishing spear!), unarmoured and generally uncomfortable (you could say it feels like a fish out of water!)
  • Use any of the Warframe's powers (including those that would kill the carried organism).
  • Go to Cetus, then to Orbiter.
  • Put that fish into one of you Aquariums.

Right, you carry the fish all the way in your arms.

hace 18 horas, (NSW)BalticBarbarian dijo:

Please note: I would appreciate if any criticism was actually lore-based and not just "idk".

 

hace 18 horas, (NSW)BalticBarbarian dijo:

Well, try making a conjecture! Or any sort of a guess! Or proposing something constructive at all. Your current position of "I don't know how this works but your suggestion is wrong because I say so" is not exactly conducive to a conversation!

Spoiler

Are you idiot?

I was defending my posture with things from the stoy (sentinels and gauss specifications), game mechanics (capture target screams, mobility), a bit of science (why we don't have teleporters yet) and logic (PAYDAY 2 example), I who even said:

hace 20 horas, VoidArkhangel dijo:

I like the idea of grabbing those idiots like a Lunaro and go the extraction like that but I like a coherent story the most = a good lore that reflects on the game mechanics, doesn't happen always since main characters are OP and showing that in-game will be more like a interactive movie.

I am the one who is saying "idk how this works but ur wrong!" and not the one throwing random things without even reading the ingame codex nor the posts it is discussing with!

I really hoped to get something from this but you seem to be one of those that don't even care of a thing. The game has no challenge whatsoever and you say that we need even less by literally carrying the targets in your arms with your shields covering it because reasons (no, shields cannot cover other things it is a game mechanic much like in Halo) while OP propose the contrary with a major challenge taking the target to the extraction while clearing every room in the way.

You don't want to change your posture and I am defending someone's else idea with my arguments so this is a waste of time.

OP suggestion keeps being better.

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50 minutes ago, VoidArkhangel said:

What makes a living thing a living thing phisially? Soul? Mind?

Chemical processes in its cells and electric discharges in its neurons.

50 minutes ago, VoidArkhangel said:

clearly said both can be deformed and reformed but the living thing could die during the process

You stated that without really providing any justification. You really need to give a bit more than that.

50 minutes ago, VoidArkhangel said:

Right, you carry the fish all the way in your arms.

You clearly transport it somehow. And it is clearly not taken off your hands immediately after you catch it.

That means the fish is (a) a living organism (b) that you can somehow carry around (c) while using any warframe powers (d) that survives the process.

For your points to have any validity whatsoever, you'd need to explain why a different living organism would necessarily not survive being carried around in the same way.

50 minutes ago, VoidArkhangel said:

I am the one who is saying "idk how this works but ur wrong!

That's kind of the problem! Try proposing an explanation of how thing work that would make carrying rescue targets impossible. The explanations i am proposing seem consistent with the lore and are suggesting that carrying them should be possible.

50 minutes ago, VoidArkhangel said:

I was defending my posture with things from the stoy (sentinels and gauss specifications), game mechanics (capture target screams, mobility), a bit of science (why we don't have teleporters yet) and logic (PAYDAY 2 example),

out of these factors:

  • You openly conceded the mobility argument (twice, with the Mausolon/Bubonico comment)
  • The only thing you said about sentinels was re-affirming that they are mechanical entities - which would mean any of their abilities are technological in nature and can be reverse-engineered
  • capture target screams can be interpreted in two different ways, the interpretation I provided being more consistent with their other voice lines.
  • your "science" argument neglected the fact Warframe is set around an infinitely more scientifically-advanced civilisation than what we currently have. So something we are currently working on (teleportation) is likely to have been figured out by then.
  • Your "logic" seems to boil down to "this other game does it this way, so it mustn't be done any other way". Do you really need someone to explain why this is silly?
  • As far as Gauss armour description - all it says is that the armour is built of heat-resistant components. That makes very little difference for your argument (e.g. modern spacecraft reentry capsules are designed to only really heat up on one of the sides, keeping other sides relatively cold). That's even before discussing things like slipstreaming effects.
53 minutes ago, VoidArkhangel said:

The game has no challenge whatsoever and you say that we need even less by literally carrying the targets in your arms with your shields covering it because reasons (no, shields cannot cover other things it is a game mechanic much like in Halo) while OP propose the contrary with a major challenge taking the target to the extraction while clearing every room in the way.

What does "challenge" have to do with anything? I'm not saying the suggestion is bad because it makes the mission "more difficult". I'm saying it's bad because it effectively turns Rescue missions into another Defection - a mission type most players strongly dislike. You were the one who latched onto an off-the-cuff side note and made it your mission to prove it wrong! As for making the mission a "Major challenge" - implementing the OP's proposal would not make things challenging - just longer and more tedious. If you think otherwise - you're using the wrong builds!

And if you still really like the OP's concept - just go play a Defection (since it's effectively what he's describing). No need to ruin another mission type for it!

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vor 9 Stunden schrieb (NSW)BalticBarbarian:

What does "challenge" have to do with anything? I'm not saying the suggestion is bad because it makes the mission "more difficult". I'm saying it's bad because it effectively turns Rescue missions into another Defection - a mission type most players strongly dislike.

There is actually a main difference etween rescue and defection:

Rescue is about ‚not alerting the wardens‘ and then get out. Defection doesn‘t even have alarms at all. So rescue should be like a stealth game until the prisoner is out and then either stealth abd advance or brute force, whereas defection is more like abrute force all the time. Now, the stealth part has evolved into speed and just hack asap, which quite changed the character of the entire mission type. I myself use Wukong there and if one guy is like 10 seconds slower at running to extraction I get a little upset because when I read ‚rescue‘ I read ‚bring Wukong/Gauss/Volt and hit W all the time with a minimal stop for auto-hacking 2-3 consoles‘ instead - which I don‘t think fits the entire mission type at all. It should read ‚bring a balanced team of stealth and protection‘. The rewards we get for rescue now, are fine for the effort we have now, though

 

Also, defection is fine for me, but if I run it on a pubby it‘s often like a bunch of players quite doesn‘t know what to do. I play them sometimes for arbi. Also saving two squads per reward feels less cool than like other options for arbi.

vor 9 Stunden schrieb (NSW)BalticBarbarian:

As for making the mission a "Major challenge" - implementing the OP's proposal would not make things challenging - just longer and more tedious.

Indeed. My main point is that I find speedruns strange. If there‘d be a 90 seconds rescue NW challenge that‘s be almost as easy as capture. I mean running a mission where the countdown + loading animations take more than 10% of the mission time feels like no effort. Despite rescues/captures are fast, I prefer running survivals for relics even though I could get 2-3 relics in the same time for 1 survival round.
Just becoming more tedious is actually not my sole intention. If they become more tedious it is easier increasing the difficulty and rewards in a second step. 
When I play capture/rescue I feel like that this is an old mission type that was doable this way at that time without way over the top effort in developping. But nowadays you can easily copy an a* pathing from wikipedia, prepare timed encounters and stuff that could turn each single rescue into an event

 

Imagine spys as spy missions with vaults where you enter a big nullifyer bubble, or cameras are indestructible and deactivate your abilities. Right now they also suffer kind of a speed-run problematic, which is okay for like T1-2, but starting from T3 one can easily have enough resources trivializing both rescue and spy and actually everything else. Hek, I recently hitted 8 digit damage numbers in AoE. It‘s funny to see but actually sad

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6 hours ago, BesucherPrime said:

Despite rescues/captures are fast, I prefer running survivals for relics even though I could get 2-3 relics in the same time for 1 survival round.

I actually try to avoid survivals for relic cracking. I usually run relics in pub squads, and there always seems to be a player who insists on bringing a Saryn (or similar) and nuking all the enemies before they turn. As a result, there's often a struggle to get 10 reactant. Similar for excavation - someone always decides to start the second excavator ASAP and not wait for enough reactant to drop.

6 hours ago, BesucherPrime said:

Just becoming more tedious is actually not my sole intention. If they become more tedious it is easier increasing the difficulty and rewards in a second step. 

While I see what you are trying to do, it might be worth considering that DE are not exactly known for promptly fixing issues in the game. So with your plan, the mission type might stay at the "just as easy and unrewarding, but also tedious" stage for years.

6 hours ago, BesucherPrime said:

There is actually a main difference etween rescue and defection:

Rescue is about ‚not alerting the wardens‘ and then get out. Defection doesn‘t even have alarms at all. So rescue should be like a stealth game until the prisoner is out and then either stealth abd advance or brute force, whereas defection is more like abrute force all the time. Now, the stealth part has evolved into speed and just hack asap, which quite changed the character of the entire mission type. I myself use Wukong there and if one guy is like 10 seconds slower at running to extraction I get a little upset because when I read ‚rescue‘ I read ‚bring Wukong/Gauss/Volt and hit W all the time with a minimal stop for auto-hacking 2-3 consoles‘ instead - which I don‘t think fits the entire mission type at all. It should read ‚bring a balanced team of stealth and protection‘. The rewards we get for rescue now, are fine for the effort we have now, though

 

Also, defection is fine for me, but if I run it on a pubby it‘s often like a bunch of players quite doesn‘t know what to do. I play them sometimes for arbi. Also saving two squads per reward feels less cool than like other options for arbi.

I view this a little bit differently. To me, Warframe is all about movement. There are plenty of games (sci-fi or not) where you can shoot at stuff and hit stuff with swords - Warframe is not really remarkable in that field. Where Warframe shines is the mobility, how movement ties sword/gun-play together. Sure, you can just stand there and face-tank all the damage (especially at lower levels) while killing everything. But that's not what makes Warframe interesting as a game.

In the current rescue missions, you first go to the prison cells, using your movement to either avoid detection or to get there and free the prisoner quickly enough for the enemies not to be able to react to detecting you. And then you leg it to extraction, using the movement system to make sure you get the prisoner past all the enemies before they can kill him.

In your proposal, the second stage turns into a long stretch of babysitting a slow-moving target, meaning you can't really use the most interesting part of Warframe - the movement system. While arguments could be had as to whether or not this would make the mission more difficult/irewarding, I'm pretty sure this would make the mission less fun. And "fun" is the whole point of playing any video game.

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vor 14 Stunden schrieb (NSW)BalticBarbarian:

Where Warframe shines is the mobility, how movement ties sword/gun-play together. Sure, you can just stand there and face-tank all the damage (especially at lower levels) while killing everything. But that's not what makes Warframe interesting as a game.

I agree after thinking about it. It‘s like the reason I rarely touch Ivara even though she gets back to good walking speed on her augment.

A huge part of the playing fun comes from being fast and hitting high ‚notes‘ (as Nora would put it).

I‘m not mainly thinking face tanking, I‘d go with the stealth part, as I did in the past. But, right, thinking over it, in pubs that would just straight go into face tanking, healing, and worm holes.

It kind of needs a new concept I suppose

 

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