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How to bring primary and secondary weapons more in line with melee


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DISCLAIMER:  my math isn’t perfect nor exact.  I’m taking a rough estimate of the following calculations based on what is provided by the wikis.  This is merely an idea of how to make our primary/secondary weapons more viable for higher level content to compete with melee.  I’m sure DE would have an idea of how to do it, but I decided to address this after watching videos by Shy and Potato.  

 

Implementation:  Fairly straight forward so that all players can have access to this new overhaul of weapons.  This concept would allow us to buff our weapons by giving us all kinds of choices.  That way DE doesn’t necessarily have to change anything at first.  This way they can gauge how players adjust to this new concept and then make small tweaks that don’t necessarily result in nerfs or random buffs.

Spoiler

Attaching the new buffing mechanic to the syndicates.  Because why not right?  

Teshin:  Handles Prime weapon buffs.  “Due to your efforts in the Steel Path, I have discovered new ways to help you along your journey.  Know this power does not come lightly.”

Arbiters of Hexis: Handle Basic Tenno weapons: “Your efforts of loyalty bolster our efforts further.”

Steel Meridian:  “Looks like the Grineer have upgraded schematics we managed to steal.  Here’s what we got.”  Handle grineer weapons modified for tenno use

Cephalon Suda “It would appear I have data on energy conversion to help you.  Here it is.”  She will handle energy weapons that aren’t so much corpus not so much sentient either

Red Veil: “Your efficiency with death intrigues us.  Make it worth our while.”  They will handle bows, daggers, and throwing weapons

Ostron:  “Aye Tenno, we know how to make more big booms.  Interested?”  They will handle shotgun buffs

Solaris: “I think you earned some extra artillery.”  They will handle the more launcher based weapons

 

It doesn’t necessarily have to make sense lore wise, but we can figure it out later.

Cost to buff weapon: 30,000 standing (not exact)

Cost to change buff: 15,000 standing (not exact)

Cost to remove buff: 40,000 standing (not exact)

That’s per syndicate.  Doesn’t change.  No need to.  This way even newer players can at least have access to this mechanic.  No specific level of standing needed either.  

 

You can only buff one gun a day.  Each weapon can only have 3 types of buffs.  The same buff cannot stack.  Balance? I don’t know.  You can change then change that 1 buff so long as you have standing, but you can’t add more if that makes sense.  You can remove as many as needed, but it’s way more expensive.  Balance? I don’t know. 

 

Buffed weapons will have a new icon over the arsenal menu similar to the forma symbol.

Cosmetic appearance: a circle glyph will appear with the matching color of the syndicate as a holographic on the gun itself. Secondary will have smaller icons. Make it toggleable? I don’t know.  Why not? Let people know how your loadout is rocking I guess.

 

Ranking up with a syndicate gives the normal reward structure.  The new buff system is a totally separate function that’s not tied to the items they already offer.  When you rank up your standing zeroes out so that’s why this doesn’t work.

 

Now for the math.  There’s a comparison chart I will link here so you can see where I cut the base damage down the middle among the various gun types.  Again it’s not perfect.  I just wanted a starting point.

 

https://warframe.fandom.com/wiki/Weapon_Comparison#Rifles

 

Each vendor will offer a small list of buffs that best helps the weapon type.  DE can handle the specifics buffs.  Each gun type will always have an option to buff  base damage though.  However, if you think your gun is strong base damage wise then take a status buff.  Fairly straight forward.  Results preview will always show buff on base stats with no mods.  Remember these are examples.

Spoiler

 

Primary Weapons

Total # (subject to change)

# of ARs

# of Shotguns

# of Bows

# of Sniper Rifles

 

257

84

23

15

11

Does not include Kuva or Modular types

         

Highest Damage

 

Grinlock 187

Exergis 1620

Lenz 720

Lanka 525

Lowest Damage

 

Burston 30

Phantasma 35

Paris 160 (not charged)

Sporothrix 35

           
   

less than 100 increae by 50%

less than 300 increase by 55%

less than 250 increase by 50%

less than 200 increase by 55%

   

greater than 100 increase by 30%

more than 300 increase by 40%

more than 250 increase 30%

more than 200 increase by 40%

           

The percentage change only increase the base damage of the weapon for one option

         

increase reload

         

increase status, etc...

         
Spoiler

 

Secondary Weapons

Total #

# of Single Handed

# of Dual Pistols

# of Throwing

 

109

65

34

12

Does not include Kuva or Modular types

       
         

Highest Damage

 

Bronco Prime 350

Akbronco Prime 350

Sancti Castanas 300

Lowest Damage

 

Ocucor 17

Akzani 12

Pox 20

         
   

less than 100 increase 50%

less than 70 increase 65%

less than 50 increase 40%

   

greater than 100 increase 25%

greater than 70 increase 35%

more than 50 increase 20%

This is intended to offer a lot of player choice that way DE isn’t forced to change numbers on a whim because some people are complaining about or that.  That way it’s up to us to determine whether or not a gun actually needs a buff or not and then they can take that feedback to change the numbers as they see fit.

 

Again this is to help weapons come in line with melee weapons.  This system does not affect melee at all.  

 

Modular weapons, amps, and kuva based weapons are not included as they already have various upgrade paths available.  Sentinels are also not included.  Arcanes remain the same.  

By all means, give feedback.  Let Potato Know.  Let Shy know.  I really want to know what can be done about this myself.  If I missed something let me know.  I'll gladly make changes to my local documents and whatnot.  Again just trying to give ideas.  

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Sounds interesting, I would follow this idea to see where it goes and wouldn't mind something like this in the game. 

However, a couple of foreseeable problems:

1) Players cannot rank up Hexis, Meridian, Suda, and Veil at the same time (at least not in a remotely efficient way). So, players will have to limit their chosen weapon types that they want buffs for. This would be fine with a normal gaming community, but Warframe's community is very heavy on grinders and completionists who will not accept that they cannot buff all of their favorite weapons.

2) A lot of players cannot find conclave matches due to low population in their region (or an unwillingness to use recruiting, making friends, changing region, changing ping limit, using the discord, etc...). Other players refuse to play conclave entirely for personal reasons. Both groups will therefore be unable to gain Teshin standing to buff prime weapons. Like the grinders and completionists, this group will also not accept being unable to buff their favorite weapons.

If you shuffle around the syndicates so that everyone can grind all the weapon buffs regardless of player syndicate choice and PvP aversion, then it should be fine!

 

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25 minutes ago, (PSN)BabyBoi6769 said:

By all means, give feedback.  Let Potato Know.  Let Shy know. 

Was this idea inspired by something one or both of those people came up with? It just seems like an odd request.

 

I cannot figure out what the point in this is, or why melee weapons are being excluded. I am assuming that the goal isn’t to improve guns due to the cost and restrictions. So melee should be included too.

25 minutes ago, (PSN)BabyBoi6769 said:

Each vendor will offer a small list of buffs that best helps the weapon type. 

—What difference would you suggest based on the syndicate you get the buffs from? — Ignore, I missed the first spoiler tag.

Edited by krc473
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OP, users on dark-mode can't read anything properly because your font color is forced set to "Black".

Change the color to "Automatic" when editing the post. (Select everything and change the color)

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I don't see how that achieves anything. It increases the investment requirements difference between melee and guns even further and increasing the damage stats on a Soma Prime by 5 million% wont change how it still gets blown out of the water in 90% of the game by anything that deals somewhat substantial AoE.

I'll just copy/paste something I wrote earlier:

Zitat

Snipers already have their own combo system and generaly reach high damage numbers and still are rarely used because the issue isn't the damage but the way the damage is applied. In like 90% of the game the higher damage melee weapons can achieve doesn't even matter. You one- or two-shot everything with anything anyways. The only relevant factor is how efficiently you one-shot enemies. Melee isn't even the best at being efficient at how the damage is applied. It's behind (good) AoE damage abilities and AoE guns. Glaives could be the exception here  since their damage application is more in line with AoE guns. The only place where melee really shines is SP, endurance and against some high level boss-type enemies. Anywhere else I mostly use AoE guns (and/or abilities) these days and still do like 80%+ damage in most squads and play SP missions without even trying. It's like throwing melee swings with roughly 20-30 hit range (explosion radius x2, depending on the gun and some other things) that deal damage through walls over a long distance.

Tl;dr: Damage numbers are rarely what makes the difference, how damage is applied is. Also, before anyone somehow translates this into"Melee is weak." in their own head - no, that's not what I wrote. Your takeaway should be that single target damage is often worse no matter how high the numbers are and the majority of guns deal single target damage.

The general concept is interesting though. I'm a numbers guy (as in acknowledging that numbers play a big factor in Warframe and other games), but numbers would only become relevant in this case if single target ranged weapons match the efficiency and functionality of other means to deal damage respectively if they had their larger own niche. Currently single target damage is barely needed anywhere and everywhere else you're just better off blowing up entire rooms and tilesets.

Lastly, while I think DE already broke their own rule by nerfing Khora for her being meta for SE farm, they said SP wouldn't be balanced around. If that's their mindset melee is - as pointed out earlier - not even the best way to delete enemies efficiently.

Edited by (PSN)Deeceem
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blinded and unalerted ennemeies (even staggered) take X700 status chance multiplier

 

headshoot got 200X status multiplier

 

that's it

Edited by Tsoe
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12 hours ago, Sevek7 said:

Sounds interesting, I would follow this idea to see where it goes and wouldn't mind something like this in the game. 

However, a couple of foreseeable problems:

1) Players cannot rank up Hexis, Meridian, Suda, and Veil at the same time (at least not in a remotely efficient way). So, players will have to limit their chosen weapon types that they want buffs for. This would be fine with a normal gaming community, but Warframe's community is very heavy on grinders and completionists who will not accept that they cannot buff all of their favorite weapons.

2) A lot of players cannot find conclave matches due to low population in their region (or an unwillingness to use recruiting, making friends, changing region, changing ping limit, using the discord, etc...). Other players refuse to play conclave entirely for personal reasons. Both groups will therefore be unable to gain Teshin standing to buff prime weapons. Like the grinders and completionists, this group will also not accept being unable to buff their favorite weapons.

If you shuffle around the syndicates so that everyone can grind all the weapon buffs regardless of player syndicate choice and PvP aversion, then it should be fine!

 

What I would do to to ease this is to add 500 or so standing per steel path mission completed.  That way it gives real incentive to both gain steel path standing and to actually complete the mission.  Yes i know capture missions and whatnot exist, but with the added bonus of an acolyte showing up and killing your POV then it makes it interesting. 

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12 hours ago, krc473 said:

Was this idea inspired by something one or both of those people came up with? It just seems like an odd request.

 

I cannot figure out what the point in this is, or why melee weapons are being excluded. I am assuming that the goal isn’t to improve guns due to the cost and restrictions. So melee should be included too.

—What difference would you suggest based on the syndicate you get the buffs from? — Ignore, I missed the first spoiler tag.

All on my own.  Shy and Potato never gave a legit suggestion.  I came up with this on my own while on the road which is where i do most of my thinking

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10 hours ago, (PSN)Deeceem said:

I don't see how that achieves anything. It increases the investment requirements difference between melee and guns even further and increasing the damage stats on a Soma Prime by 5 million% wont change how it still gets blown out of the water in 90% of the game by anything that deals somewhat substantial AoE.

I'll just copy/paste something I wrote earlier:

The general concept is interesting though. I'm a numbers guy (as in acknowledging that numbers play a big factor in Warframe and other games), but numbers would only become relevant in this case if single target ranged weapons match the efficiency and functionality of other means to deal damage respectively if they had their larger own niche. Currently single target damage is barely needed anywhere and everywhere else you're just better off blowing up entire rooms and tilesets.

Lastly, while I think DE already broke their own rule by nerfing Khora for her being meta for SE farm, they said SP wouldn't be balanced around. If that's their mindset melee is - as pointed out earlier - not even the best way to delete enemies efficiently.

Well yeah that's why i wasn't super serious about the numbers myself.  I was just trying to find a foundation to at least explain what I'm trying to convey.  DE could of course change some stuff as they did with khora, but this isn't a warframe balance issue in the game right now.  It's blades over bullets.  

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1 hour ago, (PSN)BabyBoi6769 said:

All on my own.  Shy and Potato never gave a legit suggestion.  I came up with this on my own while on the road which is where i do most of my thinking

Fair enough. Why would anyone share your suggestion with them then? It just seems like a completely random thing to mention.

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vor 11 Stunden schrieb (PSN)BabyBoi6769:

Well yeah that's why i wasn't super serious about the numbers myself.  I was just trying to find a foundation to at least explain what I'm trying to convey.  DE could of course change some stuff as they did with khora, but this isn't a warframe balance issue in the game right now.  It's blades over bullets.  

It's mainly a SP (specifically endurance) balance issue, because anywhere else most guns can do sufficient damage which is why I brought up what DE said about not having the intention to balance the game around SP. That includes weapons I imagine. Again, they broke their own rule anyways so we'll see. Personaly, I'd like to see them enhance on SP (and beyond that) as a mode people progress into permanently eventually. Similar to difficulty levels in Diablo games. In which case they'd have to look at balancing it and around it.

Edited by (PSN)Deeceem
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Here's some ideas to consider that might help or point in the right direction on the problem.

To help range: Primary and pistol equivalent to stance mods with different balance between accuracy, movement speed, combo buildup rate, zoom, damage, status duration, and max potential critical tier (yellow/orange/red/etc.); also having range stance providing things like snap aim to target within area on take aim/zoom in, gravitate sites to weak points/headshots after keeping sites on target for x seconds, and elemental damages effecting enemies within x additional range of shots path. Have the combo multiplier universal rather than melee based and add combo scaling effects to existing mods.
 
Other difficulty options: Cap highest possible armor, health, and shields. Increase difficulty of enemies using the tried and true multi phase boss mechanics on the mobs, including invulnerability phases. Hack consoles to disable a rooms invulnerability field. Enemies with marked allies whos heath won't drop below 30 percent of the others.
Edited by (PSN)Airistal
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The problem is, Guns are pretty much in line with enemies already. Maybe outside of Steel Path, but since that was never meant to be 'endgame' to begin with and is explicitly a modifier like Arbitrations 1-life system, lets not start balancing around Steel Path as the core assumption. In most normal content, Guns are more than sufficient already.

Primary and Secondary weapons don't need to be brought in line with Melee. Melee needs to be brought in line with them. Melee, or rather scaling mods, are outliers immensely more powerful than any other crit or status mod. Take Sacrificial Steel - which is already the single biggest mod to Crit Chance in the game outside of that one Magnus mod - and consider that a 3X combo which can easily be reached in a couple of seconds (especially with the right mods) gives the exact same bonus (albeit without the addition of the set bonus). At 12X, it's a 760% crit chance mod. 12X combo, remember, is not difficult to reach, or maintain. With Drifting Contact, you need to smack something every 15 seconds - with Naramon, you don't even lose it all in one go. So the balancing factor isn't doing its job.

To really put this in perspective, if you were to take every other Melee crit mod - including a full set bonus Sacrificial Steel AND it's regular version impossibly slotted into the same build, and you exclusively used slide attacks with maiming strike - it still wouldn't be as powerful, at about a 645% bonus crit chance. (Again, this relies on the impossible outcome of True Steel and Sacrificial Steel on the same build). The only unifying variable is that the Steel Mods apply twice on Heavy attacks, which whilst individually still nowhere near as powerful, are multiplying already-multiplied damage. But it should be noted that element was explicitly added in an attempt to let Heavy Attacks keep up with Scaling, and there exists no primary and secondary mod that gives a 550% crit chance increase either.

There's dramatically more Status Mods in existence, so Weeping Wounds, whilst also obesely more powerful than them, probably can be exceeded by non-scaling mods. But it's still the same problem overall - one mod being overwhelmingly more powerful than its competition than others in the same category.

 

'So what'

'Why not just give guns the same values'.

Because if you do that, you also need to buff a majority of powers, since they're now trying to keep up with guns that are dealing these huge damage bonuses, namely those which aren't already benefiting from weapon mods directly or otherwise (ones which are already struggling, mind you). And, lets be real here, enemies in this outcome will be absolute paper as well, because not a one of them was designed for a game where players are benefiting from 6X damage multipliers on already-big damage on the regular, not even the Steel Path. I mean, plenty of melee builds are capable of Oneshotting SP enemies already.

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4 hours ago, Loza03 said:

The problem is, Guns are pretty much in line with enemies already. Maybe outside of Steel Path, but since that was never meant to be 'endgame' to begin with and is explicitly a modifier like Arbitrations 1-life system, lets not start balancing around Steel Path as the core assumption. In most normal content, Guns are more than sufficient already.

Primary and Secondary weapons don't need to be brought in line with Melee. Melee needs to be brought in line with them. Melee, or rather scaling mods, are outliers immensely more powerful than any other crit or status mod. Take Sacrificial Steel - which is already the single biggest mod to Crit Chance in the game outside of that one Magnus mod - and consider that a 3X combo which can easily be reached in a couple of seconds (especially with the right mods) gives the exact same bonus (albeit without the addition of the set bonus). At 12X, it's a 760% crit chance mod. 12X combo, remember, is not difficult to reach, or maintain. With Drifting Contact, you need to smack something every 15 seconds - with Naramon, you don't even lose it all in one go. So the balancing factor isn't doing its job.

To really put this in perspective, if you were to take every other Melee crit mod - including a full set bonus Sacrificial Steel AND it's regular version impossibly slotted into the same build, and you exclusively used slide attacks with maiming strike - it still wouldn't be as powerful, at about a 645% bonus crit chance. (Again, this relies on the impossible outcome of True Steel and Sacrificial Steel on the same build). The only unifying variable is that the Steel Mods apply twice on Heavy attacks, which whilst individually still nowhere near as powerful, are multiplying already-multiplied damage. But it should be noted that element was explicitly added in an attempt to let Heavy Attacks keep up with Scaling, and there exists no primary and secondary mod that gives a 550% crit chance increase either.

There's dramatically more Status Mods in existence, so Weeping Wounds, whilst also obesely more powerful than them, probably can be exceeded by non-scaling mods. But it's still the same problem overall - one mod being overwhelmingly more powerful than its competition than others in the same category.

 

'So what'

'Why not just give guns the same values'.

Because if you do that, you also need to buff a majority of powers, since they're now trying to keep up with guns that are dealing these huge damage bonuses, namely those which aren't already benefiting from weapon mods directly or otherwise (ones which are already struggling, mind you). And, lets be real here, enemies in this outcome will be absolute paper as well, because not a one of them was designed for a game where players are benefiting from 6X damage multipliers on already-big damage on the regular, not even the Steel Path. I mean, plenty of melee builds are capable of Oneshotting SP enemies already.

Your input into this was very welcome.  So from I gather if guns were given a scaling mod ultimately, it wouldn't help in the long run and I wasn't trying to scale it to steel path per say, but connect it to a game mechanic we have already because why not.  If we had mods that worked like weeping wounds and whatnot for guns then maybe we'd be going in the right direction.  Maybe.  As far as bringing the melee weapons in line with weapons vs the other way around well that would have to be nerfs in some manner. 

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49 minutes ago, (PSN)BabyBoi6769 said:

Your input into this was very welcome.  So from I gather if guns were given a scaling mod ultimately, it wouldn't help in the long run and I wasn't trying to scale it to steel path per say, but connect it to a game mechanic we have already because why not.  If we had mods that worked like weeping wounds and whatnot for guns then maybe we'd be going in the right direction.  Maybe.  As far as bringing the melee weapons in line with weapons vs the other way around well that would have to be nerfs in some manner. 

Well - yes. I think that Blood Rush and Weeping Wounds should be nerfed.

It's really not a dirty word or a big calamity. And, yeah, I get it, it takes away stuff that people find fun, but so does buffing things.

 

If Guns got Weeping Wounds and Blood Rush, then a lot of powers rapidly start having issues. Even things like Mesa's Peacemakers - it's well established that Exalteds can't benefit from scaling mods. So now, quite a few random Joe guns can start pretty easily outperforming Peacemakers. And Mesa's lucky - her powers could concievably get scaling mods too. What about poor old Volt, who's 'potent alternative' to Gunplay is already struggling to perform at high levels (especially his 1). Even newer frames would likely start seeing their performance in comparison to guns drop off, when we compare it to Melee.

Not to Mention, the degree to which this'd bring Guns in line with Melee is questionable - against Melee. Remember, Melee weapons do rely somewhat on doing more damage than guns, but it'd be pretty easy for guns to overtake the majority of Melee weapons in terms of damage due to how multipliers work. 

And let us not forget that, just like how powers can't be easily provided scaling mods, enemies can't either. Enemies would need to be hugely buffed across the board - Eidolons weren't that tough to begin with either. Build variety, too, gets negatively effected - at least right now you can choose to omit scaling mods from your builds and use guns, and you'll do just fine most of the time. But let's not beat around the bush, if enemies start getting balanced for a baseline of these mods? Those mods really do become 'mandatory mods'. Sure, new mods would come in, possibly replace them.  But that's a huge amount of time and effort, and we'd not see these effects for ages. In all honesty, we might never see the changes be done, because things like this have happened. I brought up Volt's 1 - it does 200 damage, it can't crit and mods boost it to maybe 400-ish damage.

 

Whereas if you nerf Scaling mods (and the double-effect crits on heavy attack)? Bring down the outlier rather than build everything else up? Well, it doesn't necessarily help in and of itself. And there's certainly other issues to grapple with. But it achieves the same short-term objective - put guns and melee on the same playing field, melee being a bit more powerful, but a bit more risky. And it doesn't invalidate anything else, either.

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3 hours ago, Loza03 said:

Well - yes. I think that Blood Rush and Weeping Wounds should be nerfed.

It's really not a dirty word or a big calamity. And, yeah, I get it, it takes away stuff that people find fun, but so does buffing things.

 

If Guns got Weeping Wounds and Blood Rush, then a lot of powers rapidly start having issues. Even things like Mesa's Peacemakers - it's well established that Exalteds can't benefit from scaling mods. So now, quite a few random Joe guns can start pretty easily outperforming Peacemakers. And Mesa's lucky - her powers could concievably get scaling mods too. What about poor old Volt, who's 'potent alternative' to Gunplay is already struggling to perform at high levels (especially his 1). Even newer frames would likely start seeing their performance in comparison to guns drop off, when we compare it to Melee.

Not to Mention, the degree to which this'd bring Guns in line with Melee is questionable - against Melee. Remember, Melee weapons do rely somewhat on doing more damage than guns, but it'd be pretty easy for guns to overtake the majority of Melee weapons in terms of damage due to how multipliers work. 

And let us not forget that, just like how powers can't be easily provided scaling mods, enemies can't either. Enemies would need to be hugely buffed across the board - Eidolons weren't that tough to begin with either. Build variety, too, gets negatively effected - at least right now you can choose to omit scaling mods from your builds and use guns, and you'll do just fine most of the time. But let's not beat around the bush, if enemies start getting balanced for a baseline of these mods? Those mods really do become 'mandatory mods'. Sure, new mods would come in, possibly replace them.  But that's a huge amount of time and effort, and we'd not see these effects for ages. In all honesty, we might never see the changes be done, because things like this have happened. I brought up Volt's 1 - it does 200 damage, it can't crit and mods boost it to maybe 400-ish damage.

 

Whereas if you nerf Scaling mods (and the double-effect crits on heavy attack)? Bring down the outlier rather than build everything else up? Well, it doesn't necessarily help in and of itself. And there's certainly other issues to grapple with. But it achieves the same short-term objective - put guns and melee on the same playing field, melee being a bit more powerful, but a bit more risky. And it doesn't invalidate anything else, either.

Puffs pipes....quite. Astute observation

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I think that this is a bottom line issue, something that needs to be part of the core systems out the box. While what you've put here is good, I don't think that it should be something tacked on to a reputation, especially since a lot of players just see reputation as another grind and an egregious one given the daily caps.

I don't know how severe the prejudice against it is at large, but I can PM you a survey I conducted last month. It might be a wise decision to tailor it towards another system.

Edited by Teoarrk
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13 hours ago, Loza03 said:

If Guns got Weeping Wounds and Blood Rush, then a lot of powers rapidly start having issues. Even things like Mesa's Peacemakers - it's well established that Exalteds can't benefit from scaling mods. So now, quite a few random Joe guns can start pretty easily outperforming Peacemakers. And Mesa's lucky - her powers could concievably get scaling mods too.

chroma says hi,  he got hurt because of self damage changes, why must mesa be an exception?  (just asking)

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2 hours ago, fo3nixz said:

chroma says hi,  he got hurt because of self damage changes, why must mesa be an exception?  (just asking)

Mesa was an example, since she's among the most popular frames in the game and would be very directly affected. Most frames that don't rely in Pseudo-Exalteds for their Damaging abilities would likely see an immediate drop in comparative effectiveness, and as power creep sets in it'd likely only get more and more severe.

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7 hours ago, Teoarrk said:

I think that this is a bottom line issue, something that needs to be part of the core systems out the box. While what you've put here is good, I don't think that it should be something tacked on to a reputation, especially since a lot of players just see reputation as another grind and an egregious one given the daily caps.

I don't know how severe the prejudice against it is at large, but I can PM you a survey I conducted last month. It might be a wise decision to tailor it towards another system.

I'd like to see that good sir.  Let me know guy. 

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