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Why Don't You Like Guns?


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I hear it all the time from content creators, or read it on the forum: Guns are bad, not viable on the Steel Path, they need to deal 10x as much damage, and melee is better in all circumstances.

It almost seems everyone is in agreement - everyone but me, that is. I'll usually leave a comment, or post sceenshots how X Gun kills Steel Path Grineer just fine, but to no avail. Guns are irrevocably bad - at least in peoples heads.

This time, just for fun, I'll upload a short video. Maybe screenshots just don't cut it. You can do the same on any Warframe, and with any companion, without Riven:

So please tell me, why don't you like guns?

Edit: People complained that I was using an AoE weapon... so those are apparently not bad, only the single target ones (according to you, yes you). Have another video then:

Again, no damage buffing abilities, no Riven, nothing worth mentioning from the Sentinel. You can put Ensare on any Warframe you like and do the same thing.

I hope you have your excuses ready, I'm guessing abilites are cheating? Kuva-weapons don't count? You don't want to use Viral? Or maybe guns are just fine after all?

Edit2: Since a number of people insist that guns must be as strong as melee, have yet another video:

Actually good but not even crazy OP, right? Well, that's because the combo counter bugged out and got permanently disabled at 1:26. Happens fairly often with glaives. So I have 3 completely dead mods on the weapon, no crit and almost no status.

Edited by Traumtulpe
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...Using a Kuva Tonkor isn't exactly proving your point.

Get back to me when you can do the same thing with a Rivenless Veldt or something like that and then tell me with a straight face that guns aren't comically outclassed.

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It's because most can't be built to one-shot specific enemies or kill them with a single slash proc while the ones that can take more effort to use/build. And that (unsurprisingly) aoe weapons are better in a horde shooter and people think more damage somehow solves that. All in spite of most of the guns we have being perfectly fine in all of the content on offer.

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2 minutes ago, Aldain said:

Get back to me when you can do the same thing with a Rivenless Veldt

Why would you bring a bad, single target, beginner weapon to the hardest mission the game has to offer, in the hardest mode that mission is available in, which requires you to kill neverending waves of enemies in amounts nowhere to be seen in the regular game mode?

If you are trying to handicap yourself, don't complain.

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28 minutes ago, Traumtulpe said:

I hear it all the time from content creators, or read it on the forum: Guns are bad, not viable on the Steel Path, they need to deal 10x as much damage, and melee is better in all circumstances.

It almost seems everyone is in agreement - everyone but me, that is. I'll usually leave a comment, or post sceenshots how X Gun kills Steel Path Grineer just fine, but to no avail. Guns are irrevocably bad - at least in peoples heads.

This time, just for fun, I'll upload a short video. Maybe screenshots just don't cut it. You can do the same on any Warframe, and with any companion, without Riven:

So please tell me, why don't you like guns?

I like to use guns. But the problem with guns is:

1) They don't do AOE damage, whereas melee melts in a large area.

2) You are a sitting duck while aiming, whereas you are highly mobile while using melee.

So yes, you chose an AOE gun and used turbulence to negate those two problems. But what about all the other guns, most of which aren't AOE? And what about the other frames that don't have turbulence? Requiring a specific type of gun and warframe (and helminth ability) to make guns work is not exactly proving your point. Do the same with Excalibur and Latron Prime, then you'll convince me.

Edited by Sevek7
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1 minute ago, Sevek7 said:

Do the same with Excalibur and Latron Prime

You can do it with Excalibur just fine. Shield gating and Radial Blind are all you need. Don't bring a single target gun when you have 20+ enemies on the screen at all times. That's not a gun problem, that's a you problem.

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My personal take? The large majority of guns just stop being fun after a certain enemy level

Anyone remember Anthem? Remember how everyone who dropped it was complaining about just plinking away over and over with the same boring assault rifles on the same boring damage sponge enemies?

That's what using most guns in Warframe feels like. Now, multiply that by Warframe's enemy spawn design. The horde is relentless and needs no tactics beyond "surround the player and shoot them." Taking cover doesn't work, exploiting an AI that simple doesn't work, so your only defense is "kill them before they kill you"

This is not to say Warframe is as bad as Anthem, because Warframe has other strengths in it's gameplay design. Abilities and melee weapons are fun, and AoE weapons are more inherently fun than the boring rifles (lower ammo caps incentivize the player to wait for hordes for maximum dopamine, and switch weapons rather than waste shots on tanky Bombards).

5 minutes ago, Traumtulpe said:

Why would you bring a bad, single target, beginner weapon to the hardest mission the game has to offer, in the hardest mode that mission is available in, which requires you to kill neverending waves of enemies in amounts nowhere to be seen in the regular game mode?

If you are trying to handicap yourself, don't complain.

I'm not the guy you're replying to, but I don't think that simply using a weapon like that (at least, not one that isn't explicitly an mk1 starter weapon) should BE a handicap in the first place

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Just now, Traumtulpe said:

You can do it with Excalibur just fine. Shield gating and Radial Blind are all you need. Don't bring a single target gun when you have 20+ enemies on the screen at all times. That's not a gun problem, that's a you problem.

My friend, 95%+ of guns are single target. Very few are AOE. 

So yes, if we define "guns are equally effective" to mean "5% of guns can compete with melee" then you are correct. I think when people complain about the ineffectivity of guns, they are referring to the 95% that don't work, not the 5% special cases that do.

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We all forgot in grind games like Warframe.. efficiency is king. I am not gonna waste my time using a puny single target weapon to do a mission for 20 minutes when I can just use a 10 meter AoE one shot weapon that allowed me to complete a mission in less than 5 minutes and maximize my reward output.

It’s not the gun or melee’s fault, it’s the gameplay that demands it. Which is why I am leaning to Rework gamemodes that demands AoE DPS before touching melee, AoE guns, and abilities.

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Just now, Sevek7 said:

I think when people complain about the ineffectivity of guns, they are referring to the 95% that don't work, not the 5% special cases that do.

Steel Path is a game mode where you have dozens of enemies on the screen, and new ones spawn as fast as you drop existing ones. You don't bring single target weapons or abilities of any kind to such an environment, and increasing gun damage makes no difference.

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8 minutes ago, TARINunit9 said:

Anyone remember Anthem? Remember how everyone who dropped it was complaining about just plinking away over and over with the same boring assault rifles on the same boring damage sponge enemies?

Fun fact: Did you know that the damage numbers that showed up when hitting an enemy were actually just pure visual & didn't show the actual damage the gun was doing

A gun showing 14 could be doing the same amount of damage as a weapon showing 2000, if not more

https://giant.gfycat.com/ComplexAjarArabianoryx.webm

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18 minutes ago, TARINunit9 said:

I'm not the guy you're replying to, but I don't think that simply using a weapon like that (at least, not one that isn't explicitly an mk1 starter weapon) should BE a handicap in the first place

^Pretty much that to answer the question.

The simple fact that using a single target weapon at all is considered a "handicap" makes their existence at all a question of "Why bother using anything other than an AoE weapon?" even in content were one would consider them "viable but impractical" at best.

Using one of the better AoE weapons doesn't magically prove that guns are in a good spot, it proves that a particular weapon is in a good spot and the fact that we have weapons referred to as "MR fodder" basically means we have weapons that were it not for MR grinding nobody would bother using, and that's a problem.

Edited by Aldain
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10 minutes ago, Traumtulpe said:

Steel Path is a game mode where you have dozens of enemies on the screen, and new ones spawn as fast as you drop existing ones. You don't bring single target weapons or abilities of any kind to such an environment, and increasing gun damage makes no difference.

You realise that describes almost 90% of the guns in the game right?

You just proved yourself wrong by saying that

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1 minute ago, Traumtulpe said:

Steel Path is a game mode where you have dozens of enemies on the screen, and new ones spawn as fast as you drop existing ones. You don't bring single target weapons or abilities of any kind to such an environment, and increasing gun damage makes no difference.

Yeah that's true, but there is a way to incorporate single-target weapons into a horde mode - by having priority targets. This is what heavy gunners, ancients, bombards, etc... should be.

Ideally, in a game like this single-target heavy hitting weapons should be used to take out priority targets from range, and then lower damage AOE weapons can be used to mop up the rest. But Warframe has the AOE weapons outclass the single-target weapons in both damage and mopping, so priority targets typically just get mopped along with the rest. 

So yes, I agree with you. In Warframe's current state there is no reason to ever bring a single target weapon when you can just mop 100% of the time. I wish it weren't so. I wish priority targets presented an actual threat, and that single target weapons were very useful for taking them out, thus paving the way for melee / AOE mopping. 

Nevertheless, using an AOE gun - which is by far not the norm - as evidence that "guns are not bad" is clearly ridiculous. If I were you, I would change this thread's title to "Why Don't You Like AOE Guns?"

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Hi, I’m with you, but it dependa on the weapon, Right now for steel path I use trumna( status build, corrosive/fire) 

sepulcrum ( the same elements but critical build) 

nikana prime ( Aldo corrosive fire status build) 

and dethcube with helstrum with viral/radiation 

and i dont have any problem dealing so much damage and surviving. 
but melee still is far more op than primary weapons but most people just wants to use viral slash hunter munitions.

i do it too, for example in my acceltra 

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27 minutes ago, Traumtulpe said:

Why would you bring a bad, single target, beginner weapon to the hardest mission the game has to offer, in the hardest mode that mission is available in, which requires you to kill neverending waves of enemies in amounts nowhere to be seen in the regular game mode?

If you are trying to handicap yourself, don't complain.

Because you need to compare like to like. I can walk into a Steel Path mission with just about any melee weapon aside from (maybe) a MK-1. If you want to know what's wrong with guns, that's it: you have to use one of the absolute best guns in the game, one of the relatively few that deal AOE damage, in order to do what I could do with Ether Daggers. 

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Just now, Ailia_Grimm said:

You just proved yourself wrong by saying that

3 minutes ago, Aldain said:

the fact that we have weapons referred to as "MR fodder" basically means we have weapons that were it not for MR grinding nobody would bother using, and that's a problem

You seem to demand that any weapon at all, even those a new player would have available, need to be efficient at the hardest content this game has to offer. That does not seem like a good idea.

There are 2 options:

  1. You use an AoE weapon for AoE fights.
  2. You demand any weapon be made AoE so you can just use whatever.

The game already is too easy...

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I'm sorry dude, but idk how to tell you this...guns are just not as good as melee. Its plain and simple. They don't stand up as well as Melee, and as much as you hate hearing it, that's just how it is. The only way you can get them to do any better is with Rivens, and not everyone has the luck or the plat or money to get one. Why would I shoot something 15 times in SP when I can just down an enemy with a few wacks much faster and hit more than one enemy at the same time? I'm mostly using Sp because that's not the normal difficulty of the game and it should not be balanced around just that. Then again I could just say most guns aren't very good in Sp, they do perform better at Sortie levels I guess. 

Edited by (PSN)ErydisTheLucario
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2 minutes ago, Traumtulpe said:

You seem to demand that any weapon at all, even those a new player would have available, need to be efficient at the hardest content this game has to offer. That does not seem like a good idea.

Why did you quote me for that? Where did I say that?

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41 minutes ago, Traumtulpe said:

I hear it all the time from content creators, or read it on the forum: Guns are bad, not viable on the Steel Path, they need to deal 10x as much damage, and melee is better in all circumstances.

While I don't agree with the sentiment that all guns are bad based on those measures, and don't personally agree that those measures are where the issue (or proposed solution) lies...

41 minutes ago, Traumtulpe said:

So please tell me, why don't you like guns?

The main discrepancy is just that the vast majority of melee weapons have appreciable AoE capabilities whereas the majority of ranged weapons tend toward single targets - which isn't spectacular in a horde shooter. The secondary discrepancy is that scaling mods like Blood Rush, as well as stances with guaranteed procs, can take beginner melee weapons quite a bit further than their ranged counterparts. One tends to get more out of a heat sword than a Veldt, for example.

Being totally honest, I do think a few people talking about the issue aren't really nailing what the issue is, at its core. I don't claim to be a paragon on wording things well, but as well as I can word it, the problem seems to be that, if you take a random melee into a random mission, you're much more likely to do better than if you took a random ranged weapon into that same mission. That's in part due to damage, but that's also, in part, due to the single-target nature of many ranged weapons.

That's not to say there aren't outliers of both kinds. Some melee weapons won't get through higher tiered missions, some ranged weapons will do just fine to Steel Path and beyond. But if you're treating each category like a table at a casino, you're a lot better off with the melee table. And that doesn't sit right with some people.

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1 minute ago, Traumtulpe said:

You seem to demand that any weapon at all, even those a new player would have available, need to be efficient at the hardest content this game has to offer. That does not seem like a good idea.

I'd at least like them to not be considered useless garbage in most situations past Ceres, yes.

3 minutes ago, Traumtulpe said:

You use an AoE weapon for AoE fights.

Which is literally every fight in Warframe except for a few bosses. Which is the actual problem you don't seem to get when saying "Guns aren't bad" when your video just says "AoE guns are fine just use those instead".

Your argument isn't even discussing weapons, it is discussing "endgame viability" that most people don't bother with except for the uber minmaxers.

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3 minutes ago, Traumtulpe said:

You seem to demand that any weapon at all, even those a new player would have available, need to be efficient at the hardest content this game has to offer. That does not seem like a good idea.

I mean, that already happens with melee, almost all melee has the potential to be incredibly strong while guns not so much, the difference between a new player with ether reaper and not new players with ether reaper is just mods.

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