Why Don't You Like Guns?

[-Krism-]

3 minutes ago, Traumtulpe said:

You said every single target gun is bad. Ergo, you want every gun to not be single target.

My favorite gun is the Cedo, not for the glaive, even if it's really fun, but because it's a shotgun that kills very efficiently without being AoE

[Traumtulpe]

1 minute ago, Ailia_Grimm said:

As far as I can see, I didn't say anything about wanted guns to be explosives

32 minutes ago, Ailia_Grimm said:

We just said that 90% of the guns are bad because they are rifles, shotguns, or snipers designed for single target

Are you pretending? I hope you are pretending. For your sake.

[(PSN)DoctorWho_90250]

6 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

 

 

3 minutes ago, Aldain said:

Whatever it is it's pulling my Devil Trigger.

I should go back to DMC 5. Been wanting to buy and download the "[insert character]" DLC.

[Aldain]

Just now, (PSN)DoctorWho_90250 said:

I should go back to DMC 5. Been wanting to buy and download the "[insert character]" DLC.

I'm waiting on a sale for the game itself to do so as well.

Though for now I'm waiting for the mods to come and Bury the Light of this thread deep within the recycle bin.

[-Krism-]

Sh*t, it's already 3:20 am for me, I'll see you guys tomorrow to see if the topic got deleted or locked

[Loza03]

Just now, Ailia_Grimm said:

Sh*t, it's already 3:20 am for me, I'll see you guys tomorrow to see if the topic got deleted or locked

 

[(PSN)ErydisTheLucario]

3 minutes ago, Traumtulpe said:

Are you pretending? I hope you are pretending. For your sake.

Fun fact, being toxic the way you are is a surefire way to get the thread locked. Not only have you failed to make your point WITH CONTRADICTING EVIDENCE, but you've made the thread a target. Not that you care though right? It's more important to get the last word in than have a conversation and look at things from other people's perspectives, right?

[Aldain]

Just like that it seems to have turned into a DMC thread.

Well far be it from me to not join in.

 

[Traumtulpe]

10 minutes ago, (PSN)ErydisTheLucario said:

being toxic the way you are

How so? You are welcome to lie to me and pretend you didn't write what you did 30 minutes ago. I don't think quoting people can be construed as toxic, even if they (understandably) rather I didn't.

[(XBOX)Hyperion Rexx]

So, I did a little experiment to prove a point, if only to myself.

I went to sp mariana and took my fully op tiberon prime with (almost) god roll riven, and my dual raza's with mediocre riven, not what you would consider a meta melee weapon.   Both weapons built as you would expect.

My tib could kill the bad guys, but it was slooooow.  I had to go into full cover shooter mode and pick enemies off individually from range, constantly moving to new cover as more bad guys took up their own positions.   Quite sad how ineffective one of my most op rifles was.

My raza's on the other hand performed really quite well once I'd got the combo counter spooled up, but that only takes a few seconds.  Once at 12 combo, I was able to steamroll through the enemies with little effort.

And, to the op, thats the issue really.   One of my best rifles is massively outperformed by a below average melee weapon.   Its not that I don't like guns, I do, I love my AR's, but on steel path every single one of them is virtually useless compared to almost any melee you care to mention.

 

[Aldain]

3 minutes ago, (XBOX)Hyperion Rexx said:

So, I did a little experiment to prove a point, if only to myself.

I went to sp mariana and took my fully op tiberon prime with (almost) god roll riven, and my dual raza's with mediocre riven, not what you would consider a meta melee weapon.   Both weapons built as you would expect.

My tib could kill the bad guys, but it was slooooow.  I had to go into full cover shooter mode and pick enemies off individually from range, constantly moving to new cover as more bad guys took up their own positions.   Quite sad how ineffective one of my most op rifles was.

My raza's on the other hand performed really quite well once I'd got the combo counter spooled up, but that only takes a few seconds.  Once at 12 combo, I was able to steamroll through the enemies with little effort.

And, to the op, thats the issue really.   One of my best rifles is massively outperformed by a below average melee weapon.   Its not that I don't like guns, I do, I love my AR's, but on steel path every single one of them is virtually useless compared to almost any melee you care to mention.

You forgot to add a mic drop to that summation of the problem.

Here have one of mine.

[(PSN)ErydisTheLucario]

7 minutes ago, Traumtulpe said:

How so? You are welcome to lie to me and pretend you didn't write what you did 30 minutes ago. I don't think quoting people can be construed as toxic, even if they (understandably) rather I didn't.

By putting words in everyone's mouth for starters? In no way shape or form did anyone say what you think they did, and now you're turning toxic because you brought a weak argument to the table, with even weaker evidence and excuses. If anyone is lying now,it's you, and over something that doesnt matter. 

[PublikDomain]

15 minutes ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

Welcome to your standard online MMO with a progression system.

I would agree - if Warframe was a standard online MMO. In a standard online MMO, like WoW or Guild Wars 2 or Archeage, weapons and armor are really just stats with a skin on them. You can swap them out and upgrade them as you go and nothing about the gameplay really changes; you're still using the same skills and mechanics. But Warframe is more like CoD or Battlefield or Halo where the guns aren't just stats. Each gun is unique and handles uniquely. I can't perfectly replicate the Paracyst on a different, more meta weapon, there's only one Paracyst. And if I really like the Paracyst then tough S#&$, the Paracyst doesn't work everywhere I go and I'm better off using whatever meta blob of the week is "in" right now.

Weapons can have an upgrade through stronger variants, which is fine, but all weapons at a base level should at least be usable wherever you go. That includes Steel Path or Railjack, which are just as much a part of the game as anywhere else despite the beefier enemies. And if they're not viable then Rivens are supposed to make up for it, not that they actually do. Warframe ought to be about creativity and uniqueness and using a bajillion different weapons and frames to be a space ninja, not using only the tiny set of good mods on the tiny handful of weapons and frames graced with the best stats or abilities. Or - to keep this on topic - using the one weapon class (melee) that doesn't suffer as badly from the uneven power progression to mindlessly clear the entire game by pressing just one button.

[Uhkretor]

... This thread is going to get locked for toxicity, so I'm just going to drop this here since this topic never made sense to begin with...

 

... Everyone's right except the OP. If the OP doesn't know why they are right, perhaps he should read everything from the beginning again and think really hard into what was really said... I mean, without assuming stuff that simply isn't there...

... And there's another thing I want to say...

 

@Traumtulpe

... Shut up, Karen!

[Drachnyn]

People could be slightly more specific when talking about which guns (or which types of guns) are subpar of course but usually anyone with a brain realizes that when people ask for buffs for guns, they dont mean the kuva nukor with it.

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

19 minutes ago, PublikDomain said:

I would agree - if Warframe was a standard online MMO. In a standard online MMO, like WoW or Guild Wars 2 or Archeage, weapons and armor are really just stats with a skin on them. You can swap them out and upgrade them as you go and nothing about the gameplay really changes; you're still using the same skills and mechanics. But Warframe is more like CoD or Battlefield or Halo where the guns aren't just stats. Each gun is unique and handles uniquely. I can't perfectly replicate the Paracyst on a different, more meta weapon, there's only one Paracyst. And if I really like the Paracyst then tough S#&$, the Paracyst doesn't work everywhere I go and I'm better off using whatever meta blob of the week is "in" right now.

Weapons can have an upgrade through stronger variants, which is fine, but all weapons at a base level should at least be usable wherever you go. That includes Steel Path or Railjack, which are just as much a part of the game as anywhere else despite the beefier enemies. And if they're not viable then Rivens are supposed to make up for it, not that they actually do. Warframe ought to be about creativity and uniqueness and using a bajillion different weapons and frames to be a space ninja, not using only the tiny set of good mods on the tiny handful of weapons and frames graced with the best stats or abilities. Or - to keep this on topic - using the one weapon class (melee) that doesn't suffer as badly from the uneven power progression to mindlessly clear the entire game by pressing just one button.

You can't mindlessly clear the entire game by pressing one button, and if you can, any gun will also easily kill the same enemies. Yea, you can use miasma or thermal sunder to wipe helene, but that's not gonna work in Mot. Go into an arbitration and use your abilities to clear the map....let me know how it goes.

Warframe isn't like COD or battlefield or Halo...at all. Nice try though. Warframe is completely different than them.

All weapons shouldn't be viable for Steel path. Simply saying something should be doesn't make it so. All of the weapons are viable for the regular base game, as they should be. The steel path isn't the regular base game.

And there are definitely melee weapons that fall off hard in Steel path. Many weapons have either low crit or low status. You can make a zaw that has 32 crit chance but 10% status and it'll do terrible in certain scenarios.

[Loza03]

22 minutes ago, Drachnyn said:

People could be slightly more specific when talking about which guns (or which types of guns) are subpar of course but usually anyone with a brain realizes that when people ask for buffs for guns, they dont mean the kuva nukor with it.

Honestly, the issue is twofold.

On the one hand, you have melee scaling mods letting melee have access to supplemental stats far outside the reach of any gun unassisted by Harrow, for far less cost attached. Combined with access to Stances, and from there innate stunlocks, free status effects and 10 extra mod capacity, and they're a top choice in really almost any respect.

 

The other is that there's really only one combat environment in Warframe, regardless of tileset. Dense groupings of enemies on (mostly) flat terrain. Sometimes you'll get a wide spread with a great distance between foes, and there's the barest handful of instances of combat in more tricky-to-navigate areas, but for the most part, you're encountering densely packed groups, often in tunnels or corridors with minimal room to maneuver for enemies. This means that, in reality, only weapons that are good at dense crowds are valuable, and this goes double when it becomes apparent that even the few enemies that require decent aim are dealt with just as well using a damage-spreader like the Ignis, which can target and shatter Nox Helmets pretty easily.

 

 

All in all, single-target guns are hurting for viability, as are any associated playstyles. Without priority targets to assassinate (at least none that don't fall to the swell of AoE crowd clear) or big bosses to overwhelm, there's really no room for more tactical play, or team co-ordination of roles, as most everyone falls into pretty similar ones.

[(XBOX)Shodian]

[Aldain]

1 minute ago, Loza03 said:

All in all, single-target guns are hurting for viability, as are any associated playstyles. Without priority targets to assassinate (at least none that don't fall to the swell of AoE crowd clear) or big bosses to overwhelm, there's really no room for more tactical play, or team co-ordination of roles, as most everyone falls into pretty similar ones.

Even ignoring viability they're hurting for PRACTICALITY.

It isn't practical to run a non-AoE weapon no matter the mission type 90% of the time, and there's no reward for anything other than AoE spam and killing everything as fast as possible.

I don't even care about the viability myself, I care about how utterly impractical it is to use something like the Veldt, a weapon I wholly enjoy in both design and function, when compared to say an Ignis Wraith, which I only use when I WANT to turn my brain off.

[Tiltskillet]

23 minutes ago, Drachnyn said:

People could be slightly more specific when talking about which guns (or which types of guns) are subpar of course but usually anyone with a brain realizes that when people ask for buffs for guns, they dont mean the kuva nukor with it.

When I'm talking about making guns more useful, what I really mean is, literally, "Buff the Kuva Tonkor in Steel Path".  While I'm a little annoyed he's demolished that idea so thoroughly in his video, I have to say Traum is the first person to truly understand me. 💕

[Paradoxity]

7 minutes ago, Aldain said:

Even ignoring viability they're hurting for PRACTICALITY.

It isn't practical to run a non-AoE weapon no matter the mission type 90% of the time, and there's no reward for anything other than AoE spam and killing everything as fast as possible.

I don't even care about the viability myself, I care about how utterly impractical it is to use something like the Veldt, a weapon I wholly enjoy in both design and function, when compared to say an Ignis Wraith, which I only use when I WANT to turn my brain off.

Trick is, how do we fix that? Nerfing Melee is certainly one option, though I personally am pretty sick of "nerf the best option so everything else looks better!" 

Personally I'm kinda stumped. Give single target ranged weapons innate punch through or armor pen? Buff Ranged weapon mods significantly? Say 'sod it, Outriders looks fun'? 

 

[Tiltskillet]

PS.   I wish yall would stop picking on the Veldt.  Veldtie is a lovely weapon with a terrific personality and loads of talent.  And she has feelings you know. 

[nerfinator6]

lol

[Aldain]

2 minutes ago, Paradoxity said:

Trick is, how do we fix that? Nerfing Melee is certainly one option, though I personally am pretty sick of "nerf the best option so everything else looks better!" 

Personally I'm kinda stumped. Give single target ranged weapons innate punch through or armor pen? Buff Ranged weapon mods significantly? Say 'sod it, Outriders looks fun'? 

Honestly? We need to kill the insane use and abuse of multipliers in all facets of Warframe.

Just removing the hyperscaling from Melee won't solve the problem of hyperscaling of things like Armor, Viral Status and things like Slash proc math.

Warframe is in need of a big stat squish or the like, we need an actual ballpark of measurement to base the game around, right now the gap between "bad", "viable" and "good" is massive and enemies as a result have to be designed with that in mind, or designed to one extreme or the other which makes the other two parts pointless.

The numeric gap needs to be clear and make sense, the difference between levels 1 and 100 shouldn't like how a standard Lancer currently is, which goes from 133 ehp to almost 60k, which is almost FOUR HUNDRED AND FIFTY ONE TIMES HIGHER.

[(PSN)thegarada]

3 hours ago, Traumtulpe said:

I hear it all the time from content creators, or read it on the forum: Guns are bad, not viable on the Steel Path, they need to deal 10x as much damage, and melee is better in all circumstances.

It almost seems everyone is in agreement - everyone but me, that is. I'll usually leave a comment, or post sceenshots how X Gun kills Steel Path Grineer just fine, but to no avail. Guns are irrevocably bad - at least in peoples heads.

This time, just for fun, I'll upload a short video. Maybe screenshots just don't cut it. You can do the same on any Warframe, and with any companion, without Riven:

So please tell me, why don't you like guns?

Mmmm... I find threads like these silly. We all know why melee is better in most cases. There is no reason to urge over something plainly oblivious. You like a specific gun and it works, good for you. Are you trying to say it is remotely close to top tier melee weapon? It is not. 

Can we please stop these pointless threads?