Jump to content

Why Don't You Like Guns?


Recommended Posts

I just think I'm going to contribute and say that I have been regularly bringing whatever weapons I feel like to the Steel Path to see how they perform.

I am also a Zephyr fan, so one of the things I like to do is bring Projectile Weapons, because Jet Stream is amazing with those.

To go with that I found a Riven for the Paris. I put it on my Mk-1 Paris and took it to Steel Path. It one-shots a lot of mobs if you get that headshot, and because I built the weapon for Hunter Munitions Crit type, it also chunks away at enemies that you don't one-shot.

Since then I have been successfully triggering people in pub groups when they see me pop up on the end screens with 'x number of headshots' and occasionally 'most damage' or 'most kills' (as long as somebody hasn't brought a Baruuk or Saryn), because they see a loadout of an Mk-1 Paris, a single Furis (not even the Dex, because of the Syndicate mod for quick healing), and an Mk-1 Bo.

All because there are solid ways of making your damage relevant at Steel Path without having to bring a scaling Melee weapon.

So no, I don't think Guns are bad (unless that's IRL, Warframe is different to IRL... IRL guns are bad)...

That said, I do think that you can do way better with the right melee setup. A Baruuk with his abilities will kill better than guns. A Melee combined with any frame that won't die quickly will kill better than guns.

Guns are not bad.

Guns are just at the very bottom of the totem pole right now.

The same testing that let me bring a Mk-1 Paris to Steel Path also let me bring an Mk-1 Bo and Mk-1 Furax. With the right Rivens, modding and Stance for activating things like Tek Gravity (Gaia's Tragedy combo does two slam attacks that you can work into the string at any time), these weapons out-kill the guns I bring far more consistently.

Are guns bad? No. Are guns the worst way of dealing with most missions? Yes.

  • Like 3
Link to post
Share on other sites

LOL with Kuva Twin Stubbas? I get your point but your example proves that Kuva OPcreep line and Viral meta works in Steel Path. What about other weapons and damage types?

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
16 minutes ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

Are guns bad? No. Are guns the worst way of dealing with most missions? Yes.

So what would be the solution? Buffing guns or nerfing everything else? Or maybe a 3rd or even 4th option?

Link to post
Share on other sites

So, Steel Path was advertised as something where you can use your most powerful gear on. A place for min-maxers. A place that is not to be used as a metric of balance in the game because its made to be unbalanced.

And here we are, ignoring those words and using it as a metric of balance.

  • Like 7
Link to post
Share on other sites
11 minutes ago, Kaotyke said:

So, Steel Path was advertised as something where you can use your most powerful gear on. A place for min-maxers. A place that is not to be used as a metric of balance in the game because its made to be unbalanced.

And here we are, ignoring those words and using it as a metric of balance.

The problem is that melee is way too strong, but nerfing it would get them a extraordinary backlash from the community

EDIT: AoE weapons are also extremely powerful in SP, the only way is for target guns to be buffed

Edited by Ailia_Grimm
Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, Ailia_Grimm said:

The problem is that melee is way too strong, but nerfing it would get them a extraordinary backlash from the community

Nothing new there.

  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, Ailia_Grimm said:

The problem is that melee is way too strong, but nerfing it would get them a extraordinary backlash from the community

The problem lies deeper than that, with the underlying math of the whole damage system which stacks multipliers on multipliers on multipliers. That is what they need to rework so the output from an attack doesn't scale from 1 to a number which they can't even show on your screen.

The current range is ludicrous, it's basically the entire integer field. Of course enemy scaling and everything else is out of whack! Making the output of the system a much more condensed range, for all types of weapons, would be imho the way forward towards balancing weapons, a sensible enemy scaling, etc.

  • Like 4
Link to post
Share on other sites
9 minutes ago, Ailia_Grimm said:

So what would be the solution? Buffing guns or nerfing everything else? Or maybe a 3rd or even 4th option?

Some things definitely need some nerfing. There's no real way around it. Scaling mods, and probably the energy economy are the ones I'd focus - Scaling for reasons already stated, and energy because a lot of the issues with powers is quite similar to one of Melee's many boons. Since the energy economy is very loose in most cases, what with Energize and Hunter Adrenaline, and Zenurik, there's no real cost to a lot of the older 'big' powers.

Not only does that rob of cool moments where you unload that special something you've been saving on a group of enemies, it also adds to the 'AoE spam' part. Most powers have some form of AoE too, after all. If they're spammable, it's the same issue as Melee. Possibly worse since several abilities aren't affected by levels or armour.

The energy system could probably use a look. Perhaps relying less on RNG and external supplements, and more on energy regeneration being a thing mainly focused on your build. More stuff like Nidus or Protea. That way you could tune how many abilities a frame has access to on a per frame basis, rather than the current one-size-fits-all approach.

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
45 минут назад, Ailia_Grimm сказал:

The problem is that melee is way too strong, but nerfing it would get them a extraordinary backlash from the community

EDIT: AoE weapons are also extremely powerful in SP, the only way is for target guns to be buffed

The melee isn't too strong. It comes with its own set of limitations, like windup and close range. Specifically in SP, close range is a downside. Fighting Infested in melee means you're constantly out of energy. Then there are game modes where melee is either virtually or literally unusable, so it's not like guns are pushed out of existence.

The real thing that's wrong with melee is the universal buff it got with melee 3.0. Now you can take literally any piece of S#&$ melee weapon, and for some godforsaken reason it's SP viable. It shouldn't be the case, yet people expect the same thing out of guns now...

Edited by Serafim_94
Link to post
Share on other sites
vor 14 Stunden schrieb Traumtulpe:

I hear it all the time from content creators, or read it on the forum: Guns are bad, not viable on the Steel Path, they need to deal 10x as much damage, and melee is better in all circumstances.

It almost seems everyone is in agreement - everyone but me, that is. I'll usually leave a comment, or post sceenshots how X Gun kills Steel Path Grineer just fine, but to no avail. Guns are irrevocably bad - at least in peoples heads.

This time, just for fun, I'll upload a short video. Maybe screenshots just don't cut it. You can do the same on any Warframe, and with any companion, without Riven:

So please tell me, why don't you like guns?

Edit: People complained that I was using an AoE weapon... so those are apparently not bad, only the single target ones (according to you, yes you). Have another video then:

Again, no damage buffing abilities, no Riven, nothing worth mentioning from the Sentinel. You can put Ensare on any Warframe you like and do the same thing.

I hope you have your excuses ready, I'm guessing abilites are cheating? Kuva-weapons don't count? You don't want to use Viral? Or maybe guns are just fine after all?

Why don't you go against lvl 1000+ enemies and tell us how much fun guns really are?
And while you are at it, want to compare ttk from Melee on average vs gun on average? Only because 2 guns are viable in Steel Path does not automatically mean that they are better and fun to use. I mean, I can dig a big hole with a spoon, but I'd rather prefer a shovel. And you make this thread and aks us why we don't like spoons?

  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, Dunkelheit said:

Why don't you go against lvl 1000+ enemies and tell us how much fun guns really are?

Give me a mission with lvl 1000+ enemies and I'll do it. I'll have to bring some damage buffing abilities is all. Oh wait, there are no lvl 1000 missions in this game, DE doesn't balance around lvl 1000, and I am not currently interested in spending hours in one mission just to entertain you.

  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites
vor 1 Minute schrieb Traumtulpe:

Give me a mission with lvl 1000+ enemies and I'll do it. I'll have to bring some damage buffing abilities is all. Oh wait, there are no lvl 1000 missions in this game, DE doesn't balance around lvl 1000, and I am not currently interested in spending hours in one mission just to entertain you.

Well, I understand your arguments, but do you really want to tell us that guns are as strong as melee? If you say no, then you have your answer why noone is using guns any more. Hence my spoon/shovel example. Don't get me wrong, I can easily rock Steel Path with guns as well.... but those are the great Tier S guns. I can do it with MK1-Braton probably as well, but hey, spoon/shovel, remember?

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

Steel Path is in the game, but it's not the game, IMO.

DE has stated such.

Sure, melee is king in general, but guns work fine for in the content DE has chosen to balance them for, IME, as the OP points out in the first post. DE like melee to be king for now, so that's how it is.

This gun hate is all on the YT talking heads and general population that think SP is 'the thing to do', where it's just a fanciful challenge mode.

The players are the ones with the problem, IMO, and they made the problem up themselves.

Some people are just not going to be satisfied, especially when they ignore the very reasons for the game modes as stated by the developers.

This was all openly talked about as the mode was introduced, it's nothing new, just gamers deciding they did not get what they hyped themselves up for and now they rage.

Edited by Zimzala
speeling
  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Kaotyke said:

So, Steel Path was advertised as something where you can use your most powerful gear on. A place for min-maxers. A place that is not to be used as a metric of balance in the game because its made to be unbalanced.

And here we are, ignoring those words and using it as a metric of balance.

It is naive to think that both sides, DE or the players, would ignore the hardest content in a serious balance discussion. (Same goes for Rivens btw)

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, ShortCat said:

It is naive to think that both sides, DE or the players, would ignore the hardest content in a serious balance discussion. (Same goes for Rivens btw)

We talked on the forums about this very thing.

Everyone knew the playerbase would lose it over SP in this exact fashion.

Yet, the players/posters and YT talking heads demanded it be done.

So here we are, design by the masses never works.

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, Zimzala said:

This was all openly talked about as the mode was introduced, it's nothing new, just gamers deciding they did not get what they hyped themselves up for and now they rage.

Nah. It's just that SP makes the flaws of how they set up their math very, very apparent. And it does affect much more than just that gamemode.

Basically, if you boil it down to its essence it is why if bosses don't have various invulnerability mechanics they simply get one-shotted or why god-roll rivens have that set of specific stats, to highlight just a few issues. 

  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites
11 minutes ago, Zimzala said:

This gun hate is all on the YT talking heads and general population that think SP is 'the thing to do', where it's just a fanciful challenge mode.

Guns started to lack already when Arbitrations were released since melee just made quicker work of everything while also hitting several times in a row to take out drones instantly. Only AoE guns kept their use since they were easy to take out drones with aswell. This gap further increased with Liches. Steel Path stopped being there as a "fanciful challenge" the moment they introduced Steel Essence that you could purchase Kuva with. Heck it stopped being the "fanciful challenge" the moment it got its own personal scaling and was no longer the shortcut to high level star chart endless.

Arbitration, Liches and now SP are all things that DE should balance around, but they havent and melee is just more beneficial in the end. The gap between melee and ranged becomes quite silly when you start running disruption SP, you can either stand there with a single target gun plinking away at the incoming monstrosity, or you pull out any old melee of your choice and insta kill it. Shouldnt a single target gun be massively useful versus heavy single target enemies, the type of enemies you'd assume a designated single target weapon would be designed to kill?

  • Like 3
Link to post
Share on other sites
29 minutes ago, Serafim_94 said:

The melee isn't too strong. It comes with its own set of limitations, like windup and close range. Specifically in SP, close range is a downside. Fighting Infested in melee means you're constantly out of energy. Then there are game modes where melee is either virtually or literally unusable, so it's not like guns are pushed out of existence.

The real thing that's wrong with melee is the universal buff it got with melee 3.0. Now you can take literally any piece of S#&$ melee weapon, and for some godforsaken reason it's SP viable. It shouldn't be the case, yet people expect the same thing out of guns now...

Melee IS too strong. Specifically, scaling mods are too strong. Let's not beat around the bush - scaling mods are so much stronger than anything else that even melee's downsides aren't practically enough. Stances and many heavy attacks give innate status effects (including knockdowns) on top of access to Weeping Wounds (the single best status mod in the game) and they have access to a full array of the best crit chance mods in the whole game. Windup isn't much of a downside either, since once you are wound up its very easy to prevent you from ever dropping down again thanks to Focus and mods like Drifting Contact, and the windup time isn't very long, especially in target dense areas. 

Without its access to some particularly insane mods, though, I'd agree with you, although for Melee, the downside is less that fighting in close range is a downside, but rather in open spaces. Due to knockdowns, close ranges where melee dominates, but if you have a lot of targets over a wide area, it falls off fast.  Assuming you don't have some kind of immortal frame, that is, but that's its own kettle of fish. 

 

Warframe has a lot of very fishy kettles.

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Angwah said:

Nah. It's just that SP makes the flaws of how they set up their math very, very apparent. And it does affect much more than just that gamemode.

Basically, if you boil it down to its essence it is why if bosses don't have various invulnerability mechanics they simply get one-shotted or why god-roll rivens have that set of specific stats, to highlight just a few issues. 

I never said the math could not be better.

I said DE plainly stated this SP mode was for a very specific purpose, and that it was not going to balance around it.

Guns work fine to clear content, I use them up to and including Sorties.

The people that chase the 'very best', etc., IME, are never, ever, ever, EVER, satisfied, they will not be here and it would be folly for DE to try and appease them, as is already apparent.

The players are the ones making themselves unhappy, because they decided the game is something it's not.

These player who want 'challenge' IMO should perhaps look to playing the stock market, because WF is just power fantasy.

The whole 'problem' here is nothing more than bored players looking for someone to blame, IMO.

If a game does not give you what you want, it's on you as a player to fix that, IMO.

Link to post
Share on other sites
21 minutes ago, Zimzala said:

We talked on the forums about this very thing.

Everyone knew the playerbase would lose it over SP in this exact fashion.

Yet, the players/posters and YT talking heads demanded it be done.

So here we are, design by the masses never works.

I know, My stance always was that there is no need for "new game+". However, now that it's there I do not pretend it does not exist. Or does not influence the whole game. I also do not pretend our Arsenal is fine. 

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
15 hours ago, Aldain said:

...Using a Kuva Tonkor isn't exactly proving your point.

Get back to me when you can do the same thing with a Rivenless Veldt or something like that and then tell me with a straight face that guns aren't comically outclassed.

This... even the top tier primaries/secondaries with top tier rivens cant compete with say, nikana prime without a riven. 

The only exception being if the weapon in question has some kind of AOE and the enemies arent a high enough level to outscale your dps.

 

Melee weapons dont drop off for quite a bit longer. 

 

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, ShortCat said:

It is naive to think that both sides, DE or the players, would ignore the hardest content in a serious balance discussion. (Same goes for Rivens btw)

And you have any proof on that? Because I only see the player's side here.

Its not naïve if its making conclusion on the information we got.

Unless there is any kind of proof that Steel Path is being considered in balance changes by DE aside from assumptions and the usual BS, I dont see it being even noted aside from the Steel Essence changes. Because... well, are any of the weapons since we got Steel Path even remotely good for it? Or even normal starchart? If the answer is "all of them", then the assumption has some validation. But if its "some of them" or "none of them"... 

Making assumptions because of "they probably" and "inconclusive, but lets assume" does nothing productive.

Edited by Kaotyke
Link to post
Share on other sites

it kinda would be interesting if DE can give us data of how many players in total in warframe, how many of those play  steelpath vs normal. including mr ranks and weapons.

 

Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

Some random pistol is never going to be a room clearer in Steel path so just come to terms with it.

It seems like you've misunderstood what I'm trying to say, so I'll try to put it in clearer terms:

All weapons should be at least minimally capable for all content in the game.

You should be able to use your favorite gun wherever the game takes you. You should be able to use your favorite frame wherever the game takes you. You should be confident that any weapon you buy or craft is going to be at least passable anywhere you go and that it isn't going to be a complete waste of your time. Like in CoD or Halo or any other shooter where the guns are almost always good enough to get you where you're going. If you use the M16 or find an Assault Rifle, you can still use them to good effect. That's a good thing to have! This is already the case more or less on the starchart and should be the case everywhere else, too. Not all weapons need to be room clearing meta blobs that play the game for you and give you a handie while you play. I'm not saying that and I've never said that. What I'm saying is that all weapons should be viable. If you like the Buzlok or the Halikar or the Cestra or the Dera, you should be able to take those weapons anywhere you go. Your guns should be as good as your melee. Yes, that includes in places like Steel Path, Arbitrations, Sorties, Railjack, and any other content that "is not the main game".

All of this:

3 hours ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

Some random pistol is never going to be a room clearer in Steel path so just come to terms with it.

But thinking you can just take some akmagnus to Steel path Mot solo and wipe the map is a really silly thing to think.

Completely ignores or misrepresents what I've said. Quote me where I've said any of this. 🤷‍♀️

  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, PublikDomain said:

It seems like you've misunderstood what I'm trying to say, so I'll try to put it in clearer terms:

All weapons should be at least minimally capable for all content in the game.

You should be able to use your favorite gun wherever the game takes you. You should be able to use your favorite frame wherever the game takes you. You should be confident that any weapon you buy or craft is going to be at least passable anywhere you go and that it isn't going to be a complete waste of your time. Like in CoD or Halo or any other shooter where the guns are almost always good enough to get you where you're going. If you use the M16 or find an Assault Rifle, you can still use them to good effect. That's a good thing to have! This is already the case more or less on the starchart and should be the case everywhere else, too. Not all weapons need to be room clearing meta blobs that play the game for you and give you a handie while you play. I'm not saying that and I've never said that. What I'm saying is that all weapons should be viable. If you like the Buzlok or the Halikar or the Cestra or the Dera, you should be able to take those weapons anywhere you go. Your guns should be as good as your melee. Yes, that includes in places like Steel Path, Arbitrations, Sorties, Railjack, and any other content that "is not the main game".

This, in my opinion at least, is 100% the correct take.

I think where people get hung up is that DE did say that the game would never be balanced around SP. So if we assume that to be true, then what you described above will never happen in SP, no matter how unfortunate you and I may find that.

  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
×
×
  • Create New...