Jump to content

Why Don't You Like Guns?


Recommended Posts

15 minutes ago, (PSN)Hopper_Orouk said:

this isn't really how i should play though.

how many times do i have to say this? the game (or any video game in general) should be designed for me to test my LIMITS, limits being me putting all my calculated effort and time into a build, telling me to just not use those limits is irrational

however when the game dev limits me (aka nerfs something or changes how things work)  it's ok because it's their game and they set the rules 

i should use any option available the game has to offer, telling me to not use those so i can have a challenge makes no sense

 

all of this can be summarized in: i don't want to limit myself, i want the game to limit me!

'Should" is the rub.

I don't agree a game should be designed to test my limits, I get that in real life, thanks.

I don't agree that at some point in a GaaS game that one should not have to make ones own fun by limiting gear, it's how these games work and allows me to set my own rules.

If you want a game to limit you, that's fine, but WF is a power fantasy at this point in time, not known for being 'challenging', so if you want to test your limits, perhaps solve the puzzle of finding the right game for you, over trying to make WF into something it's not.

The line of thought you present is that game makers would have to be able to produce 'constant challenge' in a GaaS game, even after the game has been beaten. If you have that magic button, or want to test your limits by creating it, I know of a number of VC investors that would bite.

  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites

Because a certain segment of gamers naturally gravitate toward "the best" and designate everything else as total trash. 

The people who have this mindset are pretty much impossible to get out of that mindset, they are deadest on thinking that way and always will be. 

Doesn't matter if guns can do well enough to handle the pitfully scaling enemies even on Steel Path, if they aren't the best thing in the game, then it's beyblade to victory all day, every day. 

  • Like 7
Link to post
Share on other sites
22 minutes ago, (PSN)Hopper_Orouk said:

this isn't really how i should play though.

how many times do i have to say this? the game (or any video game in general) should be designed for me to test my LIMITS, limits being me putting all my calculated effort and time into a build, telling me to just not use those limits is irrational

however when the game dev limits me (aka nerfs something or changes how things work)  it's ok because it's their game and they set the rules 

i should use any option available the game has to offer, telling me to not use those so i can have a challenge makes no sense

 

all of this can be summarized in: i don't want to limit myself, i want the game to limit me!

 

Asking a game to limit you is the silliest most Stockholm syndrome bs I've ever heard.

There's 2 camps and the devs released the Helminth system as well as saying in tweets they'll try to uphold the power Fantasy system. They've released multiple AOE weapons with higher base stats to give people options to use guns. 

Your 2013 warframe is gone, just deal with it, but you have the option to play as slow and as handicapped as you'd like, but don't force anyone else to stay trapped in the past with you.

Just because some bad players think a game should be completely nerfed to be fun doesn't make it so. We're all having fun using our builds and rivens and guns because we started the game having no power and worked for said power. We took advantage of double credit and double affinity weekends and farmed plat for boosters to farm toroids for Vox Solaris arcanes and did eidolons to make our literal selves stronger. Now we can lower armor with a single void dash because we worked for it.

We are not balancing MR3 weapons around Steel path, just deal with it. Whatever weapon buff happens isn't gonna make you a better player, that's on you. If you can't handle power then don't use it.

  • Like 3
Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

Asking a game to limit you is the silliest most Stockholm syndrome bs I've ever heard.

There's 2 camps and the devs released the Helminth system as well as saying in tweets they'll try to uphold the power Fantasy system. They've released multiple AOE weapons with higher base stats to give people options to use guns. 

Your 2013 warframe is gone, just deal with it, but you have the option to play as slow and as handicapped as you'd like, but don't force anyone else to stay trapped in the past with you.

Just because some bad players think a game should be completely nerfed to be fun doesn't make it so. We're all having fun using our builds and rivens and guns because we started the game having no power and worked for said power. We took advantage of double credit and double affinity weekends and farmed plat for boosters to farm toroids for Vox Solaris arcanes and did eidolons to make our literal selves stronger. Now we can lower armor with a single void dash because we worked for it.

We are not balancing MR3 weapons around Steel path, just deal with it. Whatever weapon buff happens isn't gonna make you a better player, that's on you. If you can't handle power then don't use it.

you think my point of view is silly, and i still think deliberately weakening and limiting myself just because the game devs failed to figure out a way to make the game exciting is completely stupid 

it seems like you're very bonded with the current Warframe to have all this energy for stopping anyone who complains about it

it makes me wonder, if you don't want anyone to complain, then what is it that we should do here exactly? 

  • Like 7
Link to post
Share on other sites
9 minutes ago, Tesseract7777 said:

Because a certain segment of gamers naturally gravitate toward "the best" and designate everything else as total trash. 

The people who have this mindset are pretty much impossible to get out of that mindset, they are deadest on thinking that way and always will be. 

Doesn't matter if guns can do well enough to handle the pitfully scaling enemies even on Steel Path, if they aren't the best thing in the game, then it's beyblade to victory all day, every day. 

Pretty much...

New month new complaint.

  • Like 3
Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, (PSN)Hopper_Orouk said:

you think my point of view is silly, and i still think deliberately weakening and limiting myself just because the game devs failed to figure out a way to make the game exciting is completely stupid 

it seems like you're very bonded with the current Warframe to have all this energy for stopping anyone who complains about it

it makes me wonder, if you don't want anyone to complain, then what is it that we should do here exactly? 

Welcome to a public forum. Do you have an issue with me speaking my mind? Would you like to censor people like me because we don't agree with you? 

Why do we even have mod ranks? I guess mods should be Rank 1 and Rank 10 only? Because new players should totally go from 70 endo and 3.3k credits straight to 10k endo and 500k credits, right? 

  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites
38 minutes ago, (PSN)Hopper_Orouk said:

it makes me wonder, if you don't want anyone to complain, then what is it that we should do here exactly? 

It's called forum PvP.

That's all any of this ever is, here in a General Forum for a GaaS game, it's all just hot air.

Please tell me this is not news?

Complain all you like, otherwise what else am I going to amuse myself when I should be working?

So, we argue about things none of us can change and exchange POVs, sometime 'with feeling'.

It boils down to accepting what the game company produces, vs. having some desire to alter it, for any number of reasons.

I see GaaS games as Performance Art. I will play WF, because I like the 'overall experience' and I have FUN playing it, without trying to make it a second life or a reality simulator.

When those of us that like what is is see others trying to alter the presented artwork, no matter the intent, if it changes what the game 'is', then it's no longer WF.

I get that players want a rainbow of things out of a GaaS game, but I prefer to find the one that gives me what I want, of it's own design, over trying to re-design one through forum threads, personally.

So, that's what happens here, from my POV.

Edited by Zimzala
speeling
  • Like 5
Link to post
Share on other sites
29 minutes ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

Do you have an issue with me speaking my mind? Would you like to censor people like me because we don't agree with you? 

don't get me wrong (you kinda did already) but i don't feel like you want anything ever changed in this game even if it's good, when a player suggests it.

that's the type of mentality that i got from you.

and if you look around long enough, you're the one who looks like you want to censor people who don't agree with you  

no hard feelings, but i am just trying to explain what we got from you 

  • Like 10
Link to post
Share on other sites
13 minutes ago, Zimzala said:

That's all any of this ever is, here in a General Forum for a GaaS game, it's all just hot air.

now that you've mentioned it, we have been wasting a lot of time on here haven't we? 

the forum became more reddit than reddit ever was 

  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites
7 minutes ago, (PSN)Hopper_Orouk said:

don't get me wrong (you kinda did already) but i don't feel like you want anything ever changed in this game even if it's good, when a player suggests it.

that's the type of mentality that i got from you.

and if you look around long enough, you're the one who looks like you want to censor people who don't agree with you  

no hard feelings, but i am just trying to explain what we got from you 

I want some guns buffed too. The issue is there is no nuance at all in any of these suggestions. People just saying "add a CO and BR and WW for guns". Ok....if you throw those mods on a fulmin or Prob Cernos or Trumna, you're gonna make them even more op and get them nerfed. 

Like let's buff some specific weapons or specific single target weapons first see and observe how it goes. You can't throw a blanket over guns and just see how it goes. 

  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

I want some guns buffed too. The issue is there is no nuance at all in any of these suggestions. People just saying "add a CO and BR and WW for guns". Ok....if you throw those mods on a fulmin or Prob Cernos or Trumna, you're gonna make them even more op and get them nerfed. 

Like let's buff some specific weapons or specific single target weapons first see and observe how it goes. You can't throw a blanket over guns and just see how it goes. 

AKA, a game cannot be re-designed in a forum thread by players. 😉

Edited by Zimzala
  • Like 3
Link to post
Share on other sites

Huh, I'm actually impressed that this didn't get closed down.

But again, I still advocate for an across the board stat squish (mainly things like damage/armor scaling for both players and enemies), we're too far past any sensible mathematic balance to make micro adjustments and see meaningful results.

Rampant multiplication will be the death of Warframe.

  • Like 5
Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Zimzala said:

AKA, a game cannot be re-designed in a forum thread by players. 😉

Well suggestions are good, but they need to be more detailed. 

Some weapons have like 5 to 10 SC or CC. So just like the melee 3.0 update, let's bump up the base stats of some lower performing weapons. 

Like the akzani has a base damage of 12.0. Impact 1.8, punc 8.4, and slash 1.8. It has 14 status and 14 crit. The status and crit would be ok if it had higher base damage. Since this is mirages signature weapon, maybe they're assuming we're gonna be using clones and mirages 1 augment with it? I don't know. I'm just saying let's break it all down because throwing a blanket fix over weapons is a recipe for disaster and more nerfs. 

 

Link to post
Share on other sites
7 minutes ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

Well suggestions are good, but they need to be more detailed. 

Totally disagree. 😀

As players, making some suggestion on what we enjoy and do not enjoy is awesome.

Leave it to the people that are actually designing the game to deal with the numbers, IMO.

First, I would never give real, actionable ideas away for free.

Second, IME, the players simply do not have the data the needed to create the details required for actual implementation.

IMO, give your thoughts, as you like, but trying to 'design by committee in a forum thread' is sometimes fun to watch but not going to 'work' to accomplish anything other than these types of discussions.

I realize some players are game designers, see my First point.

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
22 minutes ago, Zimzala said:

Totally disagree. 😀

As players, making some suggestion on what we enjoy and do not enjoy is awesome.

Leave it to the people that are actually designing the game to deal with the numbers, IMO.

First, I would never give real, actionable ideas away for free.

Second, IME, the players simply do not have the data the needed to create the details required for actual implementation.

IMO, give your thoughts, as you like, but trying to 'design by committee in a forum thread' is sometimes fun to watch but not going to 'work' to accomplish anything other than these types of discussions.

I realize some players are game designers, see my First point.

I tried to explain that to someone else. Do you know what their data was? YouTube videos. 

Only DE has the data available to really see what's going on. At the end of the day it's their decision what to do with their game. I personally love the ninja aesthetic and think DE has done enough to cater to Cod Players, but still recognize that a few outlier underperforming weapons could use tweaks. But also realize some players are literally just trying to make weapons op so they can recreate COD for warframe. It's just plain silly, from their perspective. They want to 2 shot steel path enemies without using abilities or lowering armor and that's just patently ridiculous.

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
22 hours ago, Aldain said:

...Using a Kuva Tonkor isn't exactly proving your point.

Get back to me when you can do the same thing with a Rivenless Veldt or something like that and then tell me with a straight face that guns aren't comically outclassed.

Guns aren't weak.

 

 

Melee weapons are just disgustingly overtuned

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

Well suggestions are good, but they need to be more detailed. 

Is this the right thread for that, though? Not really. But since you asked I will deliver. This concept is about a year old so it's a little dated in a few places, but it's still more or less my thoughts. ETA: After those changes individual weapons, mods, or abilities can be tweaked and balanced within a much simpler ecosystem.

39 minutes ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

I personally love the ninja aesthetic and think DE has done enough to cater to Cod Players, but still recognize that a few outlier underperforming weapons could use tweaks. But also realize some players are literally just trying to make weapons op so they can recreate COD for warframe. It's just plain silly, from their perspective. They want to 2 shot steel path enemies without using abilities or lowering armor and that's just patently ridiculous.

Though by your other comments I get the feeling this will fall on completely deaf ears, because it's almost like you're purposely misrepresenting every single thing I've said. 🤷‍♀️

Edited by PublikDomain
  • Like 3
Link to post
Share on other sites
38 minutes ago, Zimzala said:

As players, making some suggestion on what we enjoy and do not enjoy is awesome.

 That is functionally where it should start and stop.

Player's memories seem a bit short on this matter though and they gloss over what they have for what they want instead...

It's those granular buckets of "how" and "why" where folks constantly pluck their 2 cents only to complain about the result later on because it wasn't done the way they wanted even though it, quite frequently, actually was.

There will be no such thing as a meaningful gun buff without a melee nerf... Even IF they managed to bring damage values between the two in line with each other (won't happen) melee would still win because melee doesn't use ammo.

There has never been such a thing as parity in this game and even comparable balance is hard to maintain... If melee is that much of an outlier to ranged weapons then it's simpler to nerf the cause to resolve the issue.

When (calling it now...) they tune down CO this will probably become a non-issue for a few months as it will be overshadowed by complaints about the nerf instead.

 

 

Link to post
Share on other sites

I dont care what gun you bring to the party. Hell bring the Bramma for all I care. Me and my whacking stick will out damage anything you bring because of the basic mechanics to do with melee and its mods.

Dont get me wrong, I dont hate guns, but why tickle a couple of enemies with a gun when I can delete a small platoon with a good melee setup?

Link to post
Share on other sites
12 hours ago, PublikDomain said:

Is this the right thread for that, though? Not really. But since you asked I will deliver. This concept is about a year old so it's a little dated in a few places, but it's still more or less my thoughts. ETA: After those changes individual weapons, mods, or abilities can be tweaked and balanced within a much simpler ecosystem.

Damn, I like this. I really like this.

  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites

Also, figure I'd answer the actual thread title, instead of just say why I like melee more...

I don't like guns, because they don't feel ninja-y, and this is a game about being a space ninja. I want to zip around with melee weapons, not guns. You can get guns in almost all the other games out there, and they bore me. They're the safest weapon you can think of (ranged). Also, they need ammo. I hate worrying about ammo.

None of these concerns are really balance issues or anything that Warframe could change about guns to make me want to use them. I just don't like guns.

Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, (PSN)AyinDygra said:

Also, figure I'd answer the actual thread title, instead of just say why I like melee more...

I don't like guns, because they don't feel ninja-y, and this is a game about being a space ninja. I want to zip around with melee weapons, not guns. You can get guns in almost all the other games out there, and they bore me. They're the safest weapon you can think of (ranged). Also, they need ammo. I hate worrying about ammo.

None of these concerns are really balance issues or anything that Warframe could change about guns to make me want to use them. I just don't like guns.

I can get behind this take, especially since three years ago, I was basically the same. I actually only got into Warframe for the hack'n'slash, not the Looter-Shooter, and whilst I've warmed up to gunplay since then, it's still got a place in my heart.

I wouldn't want Melee to be useless. My dislike of the current Melee gameplay isn't related to that, but rather to the balance issues.

Link to post
Share on other sites
8 hours ago, Loza03 said:

Damn, I like this. I really like this.

Thanks, it's the result of several years of thought on the topic so I feel the same way :) Best part is, it's entirely testable right now ingame for free. Anyone can test this concept today by following the basic modding rules and playing in places like Neptune onwards. It isn't perfect, but it would be miles better than what we've got now, and while there are a few gaps to fill like crit vs status and elemental damage, those are things that need revisiting anyways.

  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites
43 minutes ago, PublikDomain said:

Thanks, it's the result of several years of thought on the topic so I feel the same way :) Best part is, it's entirely testable right now ingame for free. Anyone can test this concept today by following the basic modding rules and playing in places like Neptune onwards. It isn't perfect, but it would be miles better than what we've got now, and while there are a few gaps to fill like crit vs status and elemental damage, those are things that need revisiting anyways.

So, I've done some testing about this, and I'm still pretty positive. I do have some issues, however, in particular with Weapons - which makes sense, since Warframe mod variety was already quite a bit better.

When I initially ran the test I was struck by two thoughts - first "Damn, I have to think about this" And then "DAMN! I have to think about this". Which was nice, since that's kind of the point of builds in the first place My only real  gripe was that, quite soon, it became apparent that there aren't actually a lot of handling or utility mods I'd actually want to use on most weapon builds, and in particular, and ultimately there isn't much utility as far as a weapon is concerned. This isn't really the system's fault, but it means the build variety won't see much increase, beyond status and crit seeing a more clear divide. 

I tried thinking of some solutions, but both 'felt' wrong to me.  The first was an Outriders-inspired system, specifically how its skill trees have some skills dedicated to 'long range' and 'short range'. The idea was that mods could have conditional activation (such as being a certain distance away) for some fairly small boosts. But that fell through because it'd likely choke up builds itself. The other was a DRG-inspired system that turned Corrupted mods (which don't really seem to have much of a place in this system) into something more similar to its overclocks and limiting them to one per build in the Exilus slot. That one fell through because the degree to which the damage would need to be boosted would likely defeat the purpose of the rework.

I don't know, I'm not really all that good at the numeracy side of balance unfortunately.

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
×
×
  • Create New...