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Tenora and Pandero Prime stats vs Riven Disposition


(PSN)Rex_Raglan

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Anyone else notice that there is a HUGE disparity between how much the stats of Tenora and Pandero Prime increased compared to the basic version and the huge drop in riven disposition? It is actually such a huge drop in riven disposition that I can actually get higher DPS with basic Tenora and Pandero than I can with their Prime variants, due to orange criticals. Maybe it is just me, but I honestly feel like a riven disposition of 2 would've been better, as even with a Riven Disposition of 3 on the originals, the Tenora often struggled to stay relevant compared to other primaries, like Soma Prime or Stahlta, which performed similar functions to the Tenora. And Pandero was often passed over for other Secondaries as well, again, even with a riven disposition of 3 already. I just don't feel like I should be getting higher damage output with the non-prime versions as opposed to the Prime (and supposedly stronger) versions of the weapons, and that the prime versions didn't get enough stats in compensation for the massive drop in Riven Disposition. Though i will continue to experiment with other mod setups for the weapons and might end up updating this later.

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11 minutes ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

Try actually being informed. People that actually read knew this was gonna happen. All new weapons have a 0.5 dispo. It's not a surprise. Use the weapon normally and actually forma it more than once.

This was done to prevent warframe Karens from whining about their rivens getting nerfed. 

Mhm. I am aware. However, I am also aware that proper feedback is important t developers and that if nobody gives feedback (like in these forums), developers don't know what needs changing or not. I never said it shouldn't be nerfed, and I actually agree that it should. However, in order to make more informed balance decisions in the future, devs need feedback. That is the purpose of this post. No more. No less. There is no need for hostility.

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If you are into Rivens, new items are dead on arrival until the next Prime Access releases. At which point, more new weapons have released and you probably don't care about what came out, and they probably don't get much of an increase anyway that would warrant your investment. Interesting Rivens really only apply to weapons added before this silly structure, and it leaves old weapons as the only point of interest for Rivens (for the most part). Unfortunately, if a weapon becomes popular from social media or sees a rework, that Disposition will likely tank (see: Glaive Prime).

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6 minutes ago, (PSN)Rex_Raglan said:

Yeah I know. This post is more for feedback reasons, as opposed to complaining, as feedback is the only way devs (of any game, not just WF) can make informed decisions in the future.

I don't think they are going to change this. They even announced that not having to nerf gun disposition is a milestone for them, which means they are likely proud of how disposition updates are shaping up according to plan despite player contention. 

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9 minutes ago, (PSN)Rex_Raglan said:

 

Mhm. I am aware. However, I am also aware that proper feedback is important t developers and that if nobody gives feedback (like in these forums), developers don't know what needs changing or not. I never said it shouldn't be nerfed, and I actually agree that it should. However, in order to make more informed balance decisions in the future, devs need feedback. That is the purpose of this post. No more. No less. There is no need for hostility.

 

8 minutes ago, (PSN)Rex_Raglan said:

Yeah I know. This post is more for feedback reasons, as opposed to complaining, as feedback is the only way devs (of any game, not just WF) can make informed decisions in the future.

Then it would help if you posted about the issue in the correct feedback forums. DE doesn't go looking into GD for feedback.
Weapons - Warframe Forums

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1 minute ago, Jarriaga said:

I don't think they are going to change this. They even announced that not having to nerf gun disposition is a milestone for them, which means they are likely proud of how disposition updates are shaping up according to plan despite player contention. 

Success! We made melee overshadow primary and secondary so much that we don't need to nerf any Dispositions for them because barely anyone uses them now.

/s

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2 minutes ago, (PSN)Rex_Raglan said:

 

Mhm. I am aware. However, I am also aware that proper feedback is important t developers and that if nobody gives feedback (like in these forums), developers don't know what needs changing or not. I never said it shouldn't be nerfed, and I actually agree that it should. However, in order to make more informed balance decisions in the future, devs need feedback. That is the purpose of this post. No more. No less. There is no need for hostility.

Hey sorry about that. It was more for other people to see. We saw the post when it dropped, and we still saw people in trade chat offering large amounts of plat for Guandao Prime rivens. We had to sit there and watch people get scammed because they didn't know. The Guandao riven regular was pretty decent, so people probably thought they were gonna get a Guandao prime with a 1+ dispo, when that wasn't the case. 

We have our own lives, it's not up to us to spend our time telling people to read. 

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17 minutes ago, Voltage said:

Success! We made melee overshadow primary and secondary so much that we don't need to nerf any Dispositions for them because barely anyone uses them now.

/s

Am I missing something? Ever since I started playing in 2017, melee has always overshadowed guns by a huge degree. Condition Overload existed in 2017 and it was significantly stronger back then by virtue of using itself in the calculation. Blood Rush existed and it was significantly stronger back then by virtue of using total crit. Weeping Wounds is the only one that got better.

Why is this suddenly an issue now? Guns in general are better now thanks to more mods and higher base stats and lower enemy armor. Why is the gap an issue now? I don't remember seeing so many posts asking people to buff guns to melee levels as I see now. So what am I missing?

Also, Voltage, you know quite well that DE have an internal ranking. Disposition can be nerfed and buffed even if no weapons are used at all if that's how DE feel like it. The number of buffed guns would be significantly higher if they were being buffed in the context of people preferring melee, which assumes that DE are comparing melee to primaries instead of primaries to primaries. 

I don't think they do that for the same reason they don't compare Trinity to the Boltor.

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10 minutes ago, Jarriaga said:

Am I missing something? Ever since I started playing in 2017, melee has always overshadowed guns by a huge degree. Condition Overload existed in 2017 and it was significantly stronger back then by virtue of using itself in the calculation. Blood Rush existed and it was significantly stronger back then by virtue of using total crit. Weeping Wounds is the only one that got better.

Why is this suddenly an issue now? Guns in general are better now thanks to more mods and higher base stats and lower enemy armor. Why is the gap an issue now? I don't remember seeing so many posts asking people to buff guns to melee levels as I see now. So what am I missing?

Yes, but what you fail to understand is that in the scope of Riven Mods, Rivens really pushed primary and secondary weapons to be more lethal and that much closer to melee weapons. However, over time with how Rubico Prime, Pyrana Prime, Panthera Prime, Zhuge Prime, Catchmoon, Kuva weapons, and other primaries/secondaries are treated by Riven Disposition, it just really isn't worth your time in most cases. Melee weapons overshadow Riven'd primary and secondary weapons vastly, and nerfed enemies just enhances this problem. You are absolutely right that this problem isn't new, but DE has not helped the situation. Nerfing every enemy in the game doesn't suddenly make melee do less damage than it did before. It's a sweeping AoE with zero risk, and it outperforms all other weapon categories except where melee is restricted (such as Eidolons, Orbs, etc.).

DE needs to stop with the smoke and mirrors of balance with this game, embracing "power fantasy", and simultaneously screwing over player investment in their arsenal. DE is quite literally killing the only endgame item they have left in this game. These are the most immense investment in your arsenal and DE treats them like it's something else.

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12 minutes ago, Voltage said:

Yes, but what you fail to understand is that in the scope of Riven Mods, Rivens really pushed primary and secondary weapons to be more lethal and that much closer to melee weapons. However, over time with how Rubico Prime, Pyrana Prime, Panthera Prime, Zhuge Prime, Catchmoon, Kuva weapons, and other primaries/secondaries are treated by Riven Disposition, it just really isn't worth your time in most cases. Melee weapons overshadow Riven'd primary and secondary weapons vastly, and nerfed enemies just enhances this problem. You are absolutely right that this problem isn't new, but DE has not helped the situation. Nerfing every enemy in the game doesn't suddenly make melee do less damage than it did before. It's a sweeping AoE with zero risk, and it outperforms all other weapon categories except where melee is restricted (such as Eidolons, Orbs, etc.).

The problem there is that melee is designed for high risk/high reward but enemies are so tame at close range that they remove the risk factor that melee damage has. This makes melee the convenient choice, and would remain the convenient choice even if it dealt less damage than guns. It would still be the safer option outside ability map nuking.

We would not be having this conversation if you were dealt true damage that bypassed your abilities, armor and shields if you were hit in melee range to properly balance the risk/reward equation. How many people here saying that melee needs a nerf or primaries need to be buffed to melee levels would be saying that if they took melee damage in accordance to their own melee DPS? 

I'd wager a very low number.

They would instead be crying about melee being unusable because melee enemies hit too hard, and the Infested would be the most hated faction instead of the Corpus, because the current hardest-hitting enemy is a nullifier due to players building around nothing more than abilities.

In addition, I don't think DE take into context the state of melee when making a gun for the same reason they don't factor how a gun performs when used by Mirage instead of Nyx. They may or may not have different standards per item category, so we can only speculate. But if DE have decided to only compare guns in the context of other guns then people will have to start working on a new argument as to why guns and/or their Rivens need to be buffed differently than what is being done now, because most weapons in the game decimate the Star Chart and DE are not going to balance the game around The Steel Path (Nor should they).

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39 minutes ago, (PSN)Rex_Raglan said:

 

Mhm. I am aware. However, I am also aware that proper feedback is important t developers and that if nobody gives feedback (like in these forums), developers don't know what needs changing or not. I never said it shouldn't be nerfed, and I actually agree that it should. However, in order to make more informed balance decisions in the future, devs need feedback. That is the purpose of this post. No more. No less. There is no need for hostility.

I see you're new here so do yourself a favor and put that person on ignore.  That's how all the replies go and alot of the time it's nonsense just so he can think he looks like a vet.

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38 minutes ago, (PSN)thowed said:

I see you're new here so do yourself a favor and put that person on ignore.  That's how all the replies go and alot of the time it's nonsense just so he can think he looks like a vet.

So all those forum posts with people talking about how they spent x amount of plat and their dispo being lowered were nonexistent, right. A rubico riven was always 0.6 right? 

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2 hours ago, Tesseract7777 said:

and aren't reviewed again until the next PA. 

3 Months won't do anything, gotta wait 9 or maybe 18 Months for a new Weapon to be able to be invested into.
everything in Warframe is about waiting and not playing :^)

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3 minutes ago, taiiat said:

3 Months won't do anything, gotta wait 9 or maybe 18 Months for a new Weapon to be able to be invested into.
everything in Warframe is about waiting and not playing :^)

You would rather spend hundreds of plat on a riven to have it nerfed? DE had no choice but to protect kuva addicts from themselves. 

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23 minutes ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

You would rather spend hundreds of plat on a riven to have it nerfed? DE had no choice but to protect kuva addicts from themselves. 

This. What they are making rn with rivens is reducing their profit to make the game healthier, I cant really say they are doing wrong. Unless we get a way to lock stats on rivens so we are guaranteed to eventually get that sweet perfect riven we want, im glad they are reducing the perceived value of the slot machine and insane time sinking that rivens are.

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