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Tenora and Pandero Prime stats vs Riven Disposition


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2 hours ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

You would rather spend hundreds of plat on a riven to have it nerfed? DE had no choice but to protect kuva addicts from themselves. 

how much i may or may not choose to spend on a Riven is my deal. if Digital Extremes (generally unecessarily) nerfs those Rivens later, that's something they did, and is not the fault of any of the Players to say the least.

the Player didn't do that, the game did.

 

anyways, if a new Weapon comes out and i really like the Weapon, far and above most others that exist, and i want to use it a lot, i want to push its performance and Modding options with a Riven.
but yno, if a cool Weapon comes out i'm not allowed to invest into it the same Year that it came out. oh well, i guess i just won't care much about new Weapons then, since i'm not allowed to.

Edited by taiiat
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3 minutes ago, taiiat said:

how much i may or may not choose to spend on a Riven is my deal. if Digital Extremes (generally unecessarily) nerfs those Rivens later, that's something they did, and is not the fault of any of the Players to say the least.

the Player didn't do that, the game did.

 

anyways, if a new Weapon comes out and i really like the Weapon, far and above most others that exist, and i want to use it a lot, i want to push its performance and Modding options with a Riven.
but yno, if a cool Weapon comes out i'm not allowed to invest into it the same Year that it came out. oh well, i guess i just won't care much about new Weapons then, since i'm not allowed to.

Just another sacrifice for the bigger picture. Your little 120CD 90CC 70MS -Corpus isn't the end of the world.

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4 hours ago, Tesseract7777 said:

This is a structural problem that occurs every time a new Prime Access is released. 

DE has this silly system now where all weapons start with bottom of the barrel disposition, and aren't reviewed again until the next PA. 

 

I guess i like this better than the gram/tiberon/etc problem of:

1) prime version of weapon nobody used gets released.

2) prime weapon starts off with high dispo.

3) because weapon is new, weapon is good, dispo is good, good/great rolls go for very high amounts of plat. Supply and demand all that.

 

4) de "has to" eventually nerf dispo leaving a bad taste in peoples mouths.

 

I just wish it didnt have to take until *next prime access* for prime access weapons to get touched. From october to february is a long time. 

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44 minutes ago, (XBOX)ECCHO SIERRA said:

I guess i like this better than the gram/tiberon/etc problem of

that could be handled by just like, giving these Weapons reasonable Riven Multipliers on release, instead of just copy pasting over.
don't need some auto de-balance system, give it a fair Riven Multiplier for the power of the Weapon and be done with it. a weak Vanilla Weapon has a like, 1.45 Riven Multiplier? significantly better Prime comes out? chances are the fair Riven Multiplier to give it is 0.8-0.9. so like, just give it that, rather than taking like a Year or two of incremental increases to get there.

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6 hours ago, Voltage said:

If you are into Rivens, new items are dead on arrival until the next Prime Access releases. At which point, more new weapons have released and you probably don't care about what came out, and they probably don't get much of an increase anyway that would warrant your investment. Interesting Rivens really only apply to weapons added before this silly structure, and it leaves old weapons as the only point of interest for Rivens (for the most part). Unfortunately, if a weapon becomes popular from social media or sees a rework, that Disposition will likely tank (see: Glaive Prime).

There's oooooone little factor you're missing here:

The riven economy is going to trade rivens regardless, and the "start at min disposition" change is (technically) exactly what they asked for

OK so you know when an old, powerful weapon would have a 0.5 disposition, and then DE would Prime or Kuva that weapon, and the new rivens would be 1.0? Remember how the riven market would create a huge speculator bubble even though everyone, including themselves, knew that the disposition was going to get heavily nerfed in a couple patches? Remember how the riven speculators still kicked up a huge whining fit anyway when exactly what they knew was going to happen inevitably happened?

This is what they asked for: for their "investments" to NEVER depreciate, only increase. "No nerf, only buff". And they actually seem to be a little satisfied with it too, the complaints these days are far rarer, and mostly seem to be "man, remember when we used to create speculator bubbles? Wasn't that fun?"

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6 hours ago, Jarriaga said:

Why is this suddenly an issue now?

Content creator complained, therefore the rule is to spam their complaints. Ranged vs Melee is entirely irrelevant even within the context of SP, as guns, abilities, and melee all trivialize content; and what ever happens in x hour endurance runs is irrelevant to balance. If someone wanted to complain about specific classes of guns, I would agree, as some aren't used regardless of content due to no aoe and not high enough single target damage. Some people are also obsessed with high damage to the point they'll sacrifice efficiency for the sake of high numbers [heavy attack spam], despite saying ranged weapons are bad due to alleged lower efficiency despite not even playing efficiently to begin with.

3 hours ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

Just another sacrifice for the bigger picture. Your little 120CD 90CC 70MS -Corpus isn't the end of the world.

Not everyone using Rivens actually go for these stat combinations. On good weapons, the stats largely go to waste, as they're already instantly killing enemies, some even in SP. I personally use rivens to save mod slots so I can slot in other things, or rivens with a stat from a mod that always gets used and 1-2 other "qol" stats that make the weapon feel better to use.

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3 hours ago, TARINunit9 said:

There's oooooone little factor you're missing here:

The riven economy is going to trade rivens regardless, and the "start at min disposition" change is (technically) exactly what they asked for

OK so you know when an old, powerful weapon would have a 0.5 disposition, and then DE would Prime or Kuva that weapon, and the new rivens would be 1.0? Remember how the riven market would create a huge speculator bubble even though everyone, including themselves, knew that the disposition was going to get heavily nerfed in a couple patches? Remember how the riven speculators still kicked up a huge whining fit anyway when exactly what they knew was going to happen inevitably happened?

This is what they asked for: for their "investments" to NEVER depreciate, only increase. "No nerf, only buff". And they actually seem to be a little satisfied with it too, the complaints these days are far rarer, and mostly seem to be "man, remember when we used to create speculator bubbles? Wasn't that fun?"

All Rivens should have the same multiplier for Disposition. Weak weapons will always be weak, and powerful weapons will always be powerful. It's legitimately dumb that the Orthos Prime that's been out since forever is still going to benefit more from a Riven Mod than Guandao Prime. Invalidating your new content for the invested player isn't a very smart business move in my opinion. I don't really care about the Platinum value of my Rivens, I just care that all new Primes since this system was added are automatic Mastery Fodder because I have top tier Rivens on older Primes. It's just a waste of time for the player. 

Edited by Voltage
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10 hours ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

This was done to prevent warframe Karens from whining about their rivens getting nerfed. 

except now we have a new breed of warframe karens who complain about how new prime weapons can't compare to vanilla versions just because "muh disposishun". so i'll say it here for future reference (thoguh it will likely be forgotten by tomorrow)

this will be the case for all new prime weapons due to them being released with a 0.5 disposition, and it may or may not get increased later down the line. 

 

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10 hours ago, Jarriaga said:

Why is this suddenly an issue now? Guns in general are better now thanks to more mods and higher base stats and lower enemy armor. Why is the gap an issue now? I don't remember seeing so many posts asking people to buff guns to melee levels as I see now. So what am I missing?

It always has been, but with 2.0, scaling was a much slower process unless you were talking the likes of memeing strike, and the gulf between bad Melees and good melees was much wider. Simply put, the gap was a problem, it just wasn't an obvious one, and there were probably more pressing balance problems.

As of 3.0, however, Melee is overall in a much better place... in and of itself. More weapons are viable picks, and the gap between a good melee and a bad one isn't that radically wide. However, thanks to the gulf of Melee, that means that now pretty much every melee can perform at the level of many high-end guns, with much less time and investment. That means that the gap between weapons that have 150% crit chance mods and 760% crit chance mods is painfully obvious.

 

There's also been more clear ways to highlight it, especially in standard content. Once upon a time, the only meaningful time there was a difference was in endurance runs, where Melee could go much much further than guns. Now we have had several other highlights, but most especially Steel Path, content with higher levels, more armour, and more health, and in some cases more spawns too. Now we're starting in a state where, quite frankly, we need to rely on the broken cheese strats to survive. And that pushes the broken cheese strats into public consciousness, because more people are seeing it.

 

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7 hours ago, taiiat said:

that could be handled by just like, giving these Weapons reasonable Riven Multipliers on release, instead of just copy pasting over.
don't need some auto de-balance system, give it a fair Riven Multiplier for the power of the Weapon and be done with it. a weak Vanilla Weapon has a like, 1.45 Riven Multiplier? significantly better Prime comes out? chances are the fair Riven Multiplier to give it is 0.8-0.9. so like, just give it that, rather than taking like a Year or two of incremental increases to get there.

I agree with you in principle. 

I would be happy if say, tenora prime came out with a reasonable riven dispo. Or at least slightly higher than .5. There are very few rolls that make it worth the mod slot at this point, at least in my humble opinion. 

The problem i see is how many times something has been released and then they "had to" eventually nerf its riven dispo all the way down. 

I feel like at barest minimum they could do riven tweaks every PA like they have been doing but tweak the PA weapons sa, a month after release. 

If it were up to me, the floor of riven dispo would be raised slightly. 

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5 hours ago, Voltage said:

I just care that all new Primes since this system was added are automatic Mastery Fodder because I have top tier Rivens on older Primes. It's just a waste of time for the player. 

Oh it's THIS mentality. Never mind then, have a nice day

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13 minutes ago, TARINunit9 said:

Oh it's THIS mentality. Never mind then, have a nice day

well, for every some number of people that use their things as 'out of the box', there must be someone somewhere which does more than that, and thusly raising their expectations.
i can assure you he's just looking for things to do in the game. one of the most reasonable desires out of a Player in a Video Game.

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vor 5 Minuten schrieb Danielw8:

You can put tenora prime in a high or max dispo and still meh just mediocre

it's the same with pandero prime. I saw "Semi-Auto" and immediately knew something again that I don't need at all ...
I have maxed all of Kuva’s secondaries, i dont need more strange stuff. even old fire is not convincing at all.

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I will never understand the community, they cried a lot to change the dispositions again.

And now that they are changing the dispositions, you guys also cry.

Ok...?

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13 hours ago, (XBOX)ECCHO SIERRA said:

I guess i like this better than the gram/tiberon/etc problem of:

1) prime version of weapon nobody used gets released.

2) prime weapon starts off with high dispo.

3) because weapon is new, weapon is good, dispo is good, good/great rolls go for very high amounts of plat.

You are missing one key piece to that problem that DE wanted to solve.  The new weapons (gram prime, tiberon prime, etc) were not just good, they were GREAT.  Easily the best weapon in class at the point in time of release by a wide margin.  Their stats were in a whole separate stratosphere as compared to the base variant that they replaced.

But these weapons are (well should be) anomalies.   Every one that complains about the current system points to the much more common practice DE has of releasing primes just a bit better than the base.  The pyrana, the ak somati, etc, etc.  Now the tenora and the pandero.  The stats on the new primes are really underwhelming, at least on paper (I don't have either yet).

So now we have a system in place intended for outliers getting applied to everything.  It's really no surprise that this system annoys a segment of the player base.

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2 minutes ago, fo3nixz said:

imo they should do dispositions monthly

I agree, but the hurdle to that is their desire to update all platforms at the same time and their inability (unwillingness) to update consoles as frequently as PC.  I'm amazed they can manage to do the PA release in sync once every 90 days.  Every 30 days seems impossible given DE's track record.

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58 minutes ago, Battle.Mage said:

it's the same with pandero prime. I saw "Semi-Auto" and immediately knew something again that I don't need at all ...
I have maxed all of Kuva’s secondaries, i dont need more strange stuff. even old fire is not convincing at all.

Yes i agree, and thats actually a huge problem in warframe. New weapons  with mediocre perfomance, not really worth to grind it and put time there ..

Imagine: Farm relics (grind), open the relic (grind), craft the weapon, put catalyst and exilus slot (40plats) and 5 formas (time and plats) and result: mediocre

 

Edited by Danielw8
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Im probably one of the few that likes the fact they start new weapons/variants at 0.5. Makes riven even less of a focus at first whether a weapon is viable or "good" and if not then over times increases if it really sucks and no one uses the weapon.

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On 2021-02-24 at 4:43 AM, DrivaMain said:

Rivens are a terrible gambling RNG mess. I am glad DE doesn't consider them in balancing new weapons.

Their RNG needs tuning.

Better idea, address the root of problems and get rid of that , get rid of rivens entirely.

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On 2021-02-23 at 9:20 PM, ReddyDisco said:

apparently paragraphs are a myth

all new weapons have a dispo of 0.5, one of the better decisions made in 2020.

gives players the option of testing out a weapon instead of rushing to spend thousands of plat on rivens right off the bat

I concur with this to all weapon other than prime variants, to me those you start off only half as low as their original version currently sits. If their normal version sits at max dispo, and the prime did not get some godly changes to it there is zero reason to start it at the bottom as remember per DE riven dispo is not about "powerful weapons" is about "over used" and getting people back on track to spending plat in the store.

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21 minutes ago, minininja77 said:

I concur with this to all weapon other than prime variants, to me those you start off only half as low as their original version currently sits. If their normal version sits at max dispo, and the prime did not get some godly changes to it there is zero reason to start it at the bottom as remember per DE riven dispo is not about "powerful weapons" is about "over used" and getting people back on track to spending plat in the store.

weapons shouldn't don't require rivens to be good

remember rivens aren't the whole cake, they are the cherry on top, approach new weapons with this in mind and you'll have a better perspective

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4 hours ago, bad4youLT said:

Better idea, address the root of problems and get rid of that , get rid of rivens entirely.

Or just don't use them yourself if you can't control your expectations instead of forcing your views on everyone else that wants to use them. 

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