Glaive "Hold to Throw" Impacting "Melee Mode"

[TheSixOfDiamonds]

So I was doing my post-forma routine for melee (that is, former ODS node Terrorem, and lock into "melee mode" so I don't accidentally draw a gun), and noticed that for some reason I kept throwing it. I'm sure I missed this change in patch notes, but this is the exact kind of problem that "hold to heavy attack" was, only worse.

Hold to heavy just set back the counter (which was a big deal), but when I throw my weapon, I'm unarmed until it comes back. I don't see why we can't use "hold heavy attack to throw" and "tap heavy attack to detonate". This way, you can still get a charged throw, but only when you intend to, and if you just want to melee it up, you don't have to wonder if you're just gonna start throwing your weapon around (sometimes in chains that mysteriously killed my combo counter?).

This also bugged me, since I tried just "heavy attack" and nothing happened. Even an option for this would be greatly appreciated.

[Uhkretor]

... You're not the only one affected by it.

 

[DE], please fix.

[(PSN)haphazardlynamed]

It's fine the way it is.

Just quit being so heavy with your fingers.

Quick taps do normal melee. but if you hold down too long you're going to throw....

 

about 360milliseconds to do a throw, 760ms for a Charged Throw

and 200ms or less is safe for just normal melee

 

200ms is fine, that's about the same threshold most fighter games use to distinguish 'double tap' vs 'single tap' button presses.

 

[TheSixOfDiamonds]

2 hours ago, (PSN)haphazardlynamed said:

Just quit being so heavy with your fingers.

I'm barely tapping with my fingers.

2 hours ago, (PSN)haphazardlynamed said:

200ms is fine, that's about the same threshold most fighter games use to distinguish 'double tap' vs 'single tap' button presses.

Warframe is not a fighting game, if I wanted Soul Calibur, I'd play Soul Calibur. Also, the difference between "normal attack" and "throw" is 160 milliseconds, by your math. Milliseconds. Basically, my controller or keyboard could stick for a barely perceptible amount of time, and get a different result. This is not fine.

[Uhkretor]

2 hours ago, (PSN)haphazardlynamed said:

Just quit being so heavy with your fingers.

... If you count clicks below 0.01secs as "heavy"...

[Tiltskillet]

For me, when I accidentally throw instead of melee, most of the time I'm aware that I messed up and pressed the button too long.  There's occasional exceptions, but really not many, and they've become even less so as I've used the new glaives more.

I'm not going to  claim there's no problem just because I'm not seeing it much.  But just in case it helps, maybe clean or change your keyboard/controller and see if that makes a difference.  And if you're using a controller, it might be worth fiddling with trigger release threshold in Options // Controls. 

[TheSixOfDiamonds]

1 hour ago, Tiltskillet said:

  And if you're using a controller, it might be worth fiddling with trigger release threshold in Options // Controls.

I am, but I've rebound it to to one of the face buttons (X for melee, B for Heavy attack, but RT for shooting, I only use controller for dedicated melee), so that won't help.

[nooneyouknow13]

7 hours ago, TheSixOfDiamonds said:

Hold to heavy just set back the counter (which was a big deal), but when I throw my weapon, I'm unarmed until it comes back. I don't see why we can't use "hold heavy attack to throw" and "tap heavy attack to detonate".

Because dual wielding exists, and because the heavy button's function only exists after you've drawn a melee weapon. If you removed dual wield (which I really wouldn't mind), you'd be unable to throw the glaive at the same time you swap to it, without further code changes to enable the heavy attack button while the weapon is sheathed. And that would make binding heavy attack and altfire separately as mandatory.

You may want to open your controller and clean it, just to be on the safe side. Your buttons may be sticking a tiny bit, and failing report a button up event. Also, for a timer reference, default windows keyboard repeat delay is about 300ms, and minimum is 250ms.

[TheSixOfDiamonds]

8 hours ago, nooneyouknow13 said:

Because dual wielding exists

Didn't they already have a workaround for this, though? I remember throw being Hold Melee, but Heavy Attack also being  throw. Correct me if I'm wrong.

 

8 hours ago, nooneyouknow13 said:

Also, for a timer reference, default windows keyboard repeat delay is about 300ms, and minimum is 250ms.

I'm vaguely aware of the ms delays. I record macros from time to time, and then replace all the delays with 50ms. Sometimes games just can't deal with it.

[SpringRocker]

2 hours ago, TheSixOfDiamonds said:

I'm vaguely aware of the ms delays. I record macros from time to time, and then replace all the delays with 50ms. Sometimes games just can't deal with it.

So let me get this straight, you're using a macro for this?

[TheSixOfDiamonds]

20 minutes ago, SpringRocker said:

So let me get this straight, you're using a macro for this?

Oh nonono, my bad. I use macros for other games. Like in Skyrim for crafting stuff in huge batches, in S.T.A.L.K.E.R. to move stacks of items, and when I played Counter-Strike, i used em to buy sets of equipment. Not had a reason to macro anything for Warframe.

[nooneyouknow13]

On 2021-02-26 at 7:34 AM, TheSixOfDiamonds said:

Didn't they already have a workaround for this, though? I remember throw being Hold Melee, but Heavy Attack also being  throw. Correct me if I'm wrong.

 

I'm vaguely aware of the ms delays. I record macros from time to time, and then replace all the delays with 50ms. Sometimes games just can't deal with it.

The heavy attack button doesn't exist in dual wield, except after the glaive is in the air. it doesn't matter whether it's bound to the same key as alt fire or not, it never had any function in dual wield other than the glaive being mid air. And as I said, heavy attack currently can't draw a weapon either, so throw is bound to hold melee to allow you to throw a glaive without having to melee attack to pull it out first.

Also, keep in mind the only reason hold to heavy ever made a brief comeback, was that all of the hold to charge void blast operator abilities were dependent on that code. Once they got rewritten to not need it, they threw it out again.

To accomplish what you want, heavy attack would have to be it's own independent key from alt fire for every player, and heavy attack would have to be able to draw the weapon. Without both of those changes, we'd lose the functionality of every being able to throw the glaive directly from having a gun equipped.

[TheSixOfDiamonds]

13 hours ago, nooneyouknow13 said:

To accomplish what you want

What I want is to not have my Glaive be thrown seemingly at random, when I just want to carve things up. I don't care how this is accomplished

13 hours ago, nooneyouknow13 said:

The heavy attack button doesn't exist in dual wield, except after the glaive is in the air. it doesn't matter whether it's bound to the same key as alt fire or not, it never had any function in dual wield other than the glaive being mid air. And as I said, heavy attack currently can't draw a weapon either, so throw is bound to hold melee to allow you to throw a glaive without having to melee attack to pull it out first.

So it does exist, but only to detonate. I wouldn't mind Heavy attack bringing out a weapon, I've occasionally tried doing it anyway with normal melee weapons.

What I've gathered from what you've been saying is that this could work: When in "melee mode", put "throw Glaive" on Heavy Attack, because at that point you don't care about your gun's alt fire since you had to hold Change Weapon to enter melee mode anyway. I don't see why we'd need to make it separate from alt fire, etc, as you proposed. Leave dual wield mode alone, far as I'm concerned, when I'm dual wielding I'm fine with how it is. My problem is explicitly that the Glaive is being throw at seemingly random, sometimes in chains, and bouncing around the room (since I don't want to detonate and lose my combo), when I don't want it to. At my end, it doesn't feel like I'm really holding down anything, but the game decides I held for just long enough for a throw.

[nooneyouknow13]

8 hours ago, TheSixOfDiamonds said:

What I've gathered from what you've been saying is that this could work: When in "melee mode", put "throw Glaive" on Heavy Attack, because at that point you don't care about your gun's alt fire since you had to hold Change Weapon to enter melee mode anyway.

This how it did work before the rework, where it was changed to explicitly make it play the same in both modes.

 

8 hours ago, TheSixOfDiamonds said:

I don't see why we'd need to make it separate from alt fire, etc, as you proposed.

Because as long as they're the same button, you won't be able to draw and throw the glaive in one action. It would always be press melee or hold weapon swap to draw, then hold or heavy attack to throw. It would bring back the clunkiness they just eliminated.

8 hours ago, TheSixOfDiamonds said:

and bouncing around the room (since I don't want to detonate and lose my combo), when I don't want it to.

Normal melee while it's in the air still calls the glaive back to you without detonating it.

 

I can't replicate the random throws, without deliberately slowing down how fast I release the key.  But I'm using a freshly cleaned wired mechanical keyboard, and running at a consistent 144 fps.

[TheSixOfDiamonds]

4 hours ago, nooneyouknow13 said:

This how it did work before the rework, where it was changed to explicitly make it play the same in both modes.

Great, they can swap it back, then. At least until they sort this issue out.

4 hours ago, nooneyouknow13 said:

Normal melee while it's in the air still calls the glaive back to you without detonating it.

Yes, and then I'd end up immediately throwing it again. Maybe, it depends on how Warframe feels at that particular moment.

4 hours ago, nooneyouknow13 said:

I can't replicate the random throws, without deliberately slowing down how fast I release the key.  But I'm using a freshly cleaned wired mechanical keyboard, and running at a consistent 144 fps.

Cool flex.

At least one other person has had the same issue, and their post is more technical than mine. It's not a "hey, it's just you, clean your stuff and buy a better rig, like me" situation. Do I know what I run at? No, it's smooth, so I don't care. Does my stuff need cleaning? Maybe, but for this problem only Warframe has had problems, so I doubt it needs it, else other games would also be having issues.

A clanmate of mine tested this out with his own setup. Apparently, one move of Astral Twilight can trigger a full throw. He was testing while I wrote this. He didn't specify which one, but it's something.

[nooneyouknow13]

2 hours ago, TheSixOfDiamonds said:

Cool flex.

At least one other person has had the same issue, and their post is more technical than mine. It's not a "hey, it's just you, clean your stuff and buy a better rig, like me" situation. Do I know what I run at? No, it's smooth, so I don't care. Does my stuff need cleaning? Maybe, but for this problem only Warframe has had problems, so I doubt it needs it, else other games would also be having issues.

A clanmate of mine tested this out with his own setup. Apparently, one move of Astral Twilight can trigger a full throw. He was testing while I wrote this. He didn't specify which one, but it's something.

I just said I couldn't replicate it without actually trying to cause the problem, and gave my set up as a potential reason why. I could definitely see this potentially being an issue with frame drops, or a bad host. Also, this is like claiming you don't need to clean dust out of the PC because only one game overheats.

2 hours ago, TheSixOfDiamonds said:

Great, they can swap it back, then. At least until they sort this issue out.

Cool, so glaives become unusable for anyone using dual secondaries, and only planning to throw them again. Unless this is a specific change, like manual blocking, made to only the exclusive melee mode at least. And even then, you'd have a whole host of confused players to deal with again.

16 hours ago, TheSixOfDiamonds said:

So it does exist, but only to detonate.

This I should have replied to earlier - alt fire functionality for the dual wielded secondary ceases to function, even if bound to a different key while a glaive is in mid air