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Guns are underpowered in endgame. I propose Double Damage weekends for guns for the sake of community experimentation.


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There aren't any weapons in the game that cannot be used to clear all of the regular starchart content, up to, and including arbi's and sorties. If you're going into steel path and coming back with a surprised pikachu face because your guns don't work as well, get out. People begged for a "hard mode" and now they're mad that it's the wrong kind of hard. Sort yourselves out.

The only real issue here is DE trying to please all of the people all of the time, instead of standing their ground and declaring with no uncertain terms what their primary intentions are; Is Warframe meant to be a power fantasy where we embody super powerful weapons that can smash all opposition? Or, is it meant to be a difficult challenge where we are fighting an uphill battle at all times? Trying to appease both ends of that spectrum is what has led us to the muddied mess we have right now.

 

TL;DR NO, guns are fine, if anything, nerf melee or remove steel path entirely so people stop thinking the game is meant to scale that way.

Edited by sh00chu
missing punctuation
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The game is not too hard. Let me clarify. Someone above asked me what i consider endgame, that would be steel path and steel path endurance, mainly survival. 

The problem is the gap between melee and guns are to huge. with melee slash weapons like kronen prime you can solo survival up to 9999, which i do use playing solo up to 9999, so this is not about begging for the game to be easier. The problem is melee can slash so many enemies at once and bypass armor with slash procs, primed with condition overload, etc. With conventional guns you have to shoot enemies one by one and the damage is very low, u will have difficulty with enemies in MOT level 145, not to mention melee can be equipped with lifesteal mods, whereas with guns, you stand, you aim, you die. It is about the gap, both in numbers and mechanics. Think about it lvl 9999 for melee vs lvl 145 for guns with risk of dying. How is this not a huge gap?

I thought this whole melee is OP and guns are weak are agreed upon by the playerbase, I guess not. 

Edited by EvilizationX
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If the plan is to just experiment how guns will perform with double damage it's better to just use Chroma as a proxy. 0% power strength, max rank Chroma results a little over double damage.

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hahaahahaha

 

id rather have a double damage for guns with conditional like x2 for headshoot and x1.5 while sliding

 

or a combo system for all guns

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vor 1 Stunde schrieb EvilizationX:

I thought this whole melee is OP and guns are weak are agreed upon by the playerbase, I guess not. 

It's only agreed upon by players who consider high level SP to be what the game should be balanced around despite DE having said prior to SP release that they are not going to balance the game around SP and that it's unrelated to endgame (source: their SP announcement post). By the way, you run in the same issue against regular level 9999 enemies (DE will not balance around that either). Basically, long endurance runs always required to min-max and "cheese" game mechanics, even before SP or the melee rework or shield gating or the factions changes or... anyways, always.

Also, doubling the gun damage would have virtually no effect against high level SP enemies. You'd actually know that if you ever played what you consider endgame. It's simple to test on most guns without introducing a weekend event or whatever too as others pointed out by using frame buffs to simulate a somewhat double damage buff on guns.

Don't get me wrong, the second DE says something like: "Okay guys, we want endurance SP to be our new core experience for everyone." I'll be the first to join in on the lamenting about how unbalanced the player's gear is for that. But until then... it's a niche activity -> DE doesn't balance around niche activities.

Realistcally speaking - even if we say we'd include SP in DE's balance concerns - as long as you can get a full rotation in with the majority of equipment it's "balanced" because pushing past that is not required by any means but only a choice the player makes for the sake of it. Things you could bring up as exceptions would be actually Arbis with endless rotation C and limited availability and fissures with their scaling buffs and limited availability - both as it stands irrelevant to SP.

Edited by (PSN)Deeceem
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Warframe0181.jpgOK, fair enough. I never knew that DE said they wouldnt balance things around endurance.

Quote

Also, doubling the gun damage would have virtually no effect against high level SP enemies. You'd actually know that if you ever played what you consider endgame.

I know double damage is not good enough if we are talking endgame. If I use Eclipse I do like 5x damage not just double. Guns do acceptable damage in Steel Path. I was just saying double damage because it is modest. If I say 5x damage weekend, it would be too outrageous, wouldnt it? Like I said above, I have played solo to 9999 and thats why I know the gap between melee and guns are too huge

Edited by EvilizationX
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26 minutes ago, Tsoe said:

hahaahahaha

 

id rather have a double damage for guns with conditional like x2 for headshoot and x1.5 while sliding

 

or a combo system for all guns

That's actually a decent idea. Gameplay could be a lot more dynamic if weak points or targeted limbs legitimately matter. Shoot someone in the head enough to reduce their accuracy due to bogged down vision, shoot 'em in the arm enough & they'll drop their weapon, shoot 'em in the leg & they'll be forced to slowly walk with a limp. That could actually make gunplay interesting, changing up both single-target & horde encounters. Perhaps body part multipliers could also be adjusted to compensate for the amount of focused damage applied to a particular part.

Snipers are the only firearms in the game with a combo system. Why that's the case is beyond my understanding, but that could be another route to go for. Rifles typically tend to be outdone by shotguns, so a combo system might actually incentivize better aim or something like that.

I know that I would like to see something be done in order to spruce up the gunplay. There are plenty of decent guns to choose from, but not enough interactivity or tactical utility as there should be.

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5 hours ago, sh00chu said:

People begged for a "hard mode" and now they're mad that it's the wrong kind of hard. Sort yourselves out.

maybe its because "hard mode" only applies to guns, and its "slightly difficult mode" for melee. Nerf melee (or all those myriad of multipliers) has to happen.

Of course, the other issue is that they don't want hard mode at all, they want every mode to be cheesably easy because its a looter game. The shooting is an annoyance getting in the way of the repetitive missions you have to run over and over to get the parts or loot required.

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On 2021-02-26 at 5:52 AM, sh00chu said:

People begged for a "hard mode" and now they're mad that it's the wrong kind of hard. Sort yourselves out.

No, nobody begged for "a hard mode". What players had been asking for was the option to play the Star Chart missions at elevated enemy levels, which would allow enemy eHP to be a proper match for the damage output of fully-built weapons. Because...

On 2021-02-26 at 5:52 AM, sh00chu said:

There aren't any weapons in the game that cannot be used to clear all of the regular starchart content, up to, and including arbi's and sorties.

Exactly so.

Which is why it was unsatisfactory to have all your preferred weapons capable of dealing with Sortie-level enemies, but if you fancied just soloing a Mobile Defence vs Corpus, you had to play at level 30-34 at the highest.

The solution was teased on Home Devstream #3 (around 47 mintues in); to fight Sortie-level enemies all the time. Job done... except it was labelled "hard mode" which shifted the conversation around it to whether that would actually be hard. The answer, obviously, being "no harder than Sorties". Even the "ultra-hard" mode going up to lvl.150 wouldn't have been challenging to a geared-up player, but it would have been fun.

But no, the conversation shifted to "you called it 'hard mode' so it's got to be hard". Thus we got Steel Path where, with most of our guns, killing things is a flat-out chore. And it still isn't hard, it just makes cheese virtually obligatory.

So I can solo my MD against Corpus at lvl.30-34, where an unmodded Volt with a decent sword and no Companions can banzai through the mission like an idiot without getting killed even once (video evidence available if anyone wants me to upload it), or in Steel Path where the sheer number of enemies means you have to nuke 'em, or cc them into sitting ducks if you don't want the console melted -- and that's not combat, it's target practice.

And now with a free annoying Acolyte in every mission. 'Cos if you're geared up for a regular Grineer mission, of course you want some ***ck with Shields popping up.

I don't haet Steel Path, but I'm pretty sure it's not what the people who requested a higher-level Start Chart were asking for, 'cos all the conversation I saw about that on these forums was along the lines of "should it be a flat switch to, for example, lvl.50-60, lvl.80-100, lvl.180-200 everywhere, or should it rise gradually like the normal Star Chart?".

On 2021-02-26 at 5:52 AM, sh00chu said:

Is Warframe meant to be a power fantasy where we embody super powerful weapons that can smash all opposition? Or, is it meant to be a difficult challenge where we are fighting an uphill battle at all times?

While I was still working my way up the Star Chart, it could be either.

No-Shields Nightmare modes were a nightmare in Excal, but using Rhino turned the "skill level" right down.

Sobek blasted mooks into oblivion with little effort, while the Miter demanded a deal more attention to be effective.

Dex Furis dissolved enemies in a hail of careless dakka, while my Twin Vipers increased the TtK and thereby the risk to myself.

If I started from which 'frame I wanted to use vs which faction, I then chose the enemy level according to how dangerous I wanted them to be, and my weapons according to how easy I wanted them to die. Difficulty selection is largely achieved through the Arsenal.

Nowadays, I can bring my Acceltra to a Kuva Flood and roflstomp everything, or I can bring my Paracyst and get sweaty. But my Paracyst is **** all use in Steel Path, while still being overkill for the Star Chart. And the Kuva Flood is hardly ever going to fall on the mission I'd really like to play, is it?

Right now if you've an arsenal of guns all potatoed and Forma'd up, there's not much place to use most of them except Lich Territory, and damn if I'm not getting weary of fighting nothing but Grineer all the blinkin' time.

So no, the game shouldn't be balanced for Steel Path. But it's not balanced for the Star Chart either. So what is it supposed to be balanced for? The one Sortie per day?!

Anyhow, back to the OP: guns aren't underpowered in "endgame". They're underpowered compared to melee. Not melee with Acolyte Mods and Condition Overload and all that fancy stuff. I mean standard Mods on everything, firearms will badly underperform compared to melee weapons of a similar tier.

Melee weapons got big buffs to their base stats when the melee was reworked, and guns didn't. That needs evening-up.

On 2021-02-26 at 5:52 AM, sh00chu said:

if anything, nerf melee

Either that or buff guns. But if it's buff guns, then buff enemy eHP too. 'Cos right now an unmodded Skana does fine on Ceres and Phobos. Warframe's gotta look like a pretty odd looter game to a new starter if they can get one third of the way up the Star Chart without needing any upgrades.

Also, teach the enemies to shoot straight; they're supposed to represent some sort of threat.

Edited by OmegaVoid
corrected Devstream reference
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9 hours ago, (PSN)IndianChiefJeff said:

That's actually a decent idea. Gameplay could be a lot more dynamic if weak points or targeted limbs legitimately matter. Shoot someone in the head enough to reduce their accuracy due to bogged down vision, shoot 'em in the arm enough & they'll drop their weapon, shoot 'em in the leg & they'll be forced to slowly walk with a limp. That could actually make gunplay interesting, changing up both single-target & horde encounters. Perhaps body part multipliers could also be adjusted to compensate for the amount of focused damage applied to a particular part.

Snipers are the only firearms in the game with a combo system. Why that's the case is beyond my understanding, but that could be another route to go for. Rifles typically tend to be outdone by shotguns, so a combo system might actually incentivize better aim or something like that.

I know that I would like to see something be done in order to spruce up the gunplay. There are plenty of decent guns to choose from, but not enough interactivity or tactical utility as there should be.

Right

 

i really want warframe to bring gunsfight up to the top but with the special rewarding feeling of using gameplay aim skills to get more power

not just brute force

 

 

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Just seeing the feedback forum, I realize there are many threads about buffing guns and from seeing devstream 152 yesterday, I think DE heard us. Good to know that SP and endurance players are being heard.

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Le 26/02/2021 à 08:09, Tsoe a dit :

hahaahahaha

 

id rather have a double damage for guns with conditional like x2 for headshoot and x1.5 while sliding

 

or a combo system for all guns

I also feel that an overall increase of guns headshot damage bonus (exclude aoe and chaining like nukor and mesa) would be a good thing. But it would make gamepad far inferior to keyboard + mouse and would bring new meta with CC that ease headshots.

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I think the idea behind the OP's suggestion is actually kind of brilliant: there's a lot of uncertainty to the game's balance, and leaving it to massive rebalancing patches leaves a lot to chance, especially since those changes usually turn out differently than expected through mass testing. Going back on those changes is also difficult and likely embarrassing, which is why DE pretty much never reverts updates that go wrong. By contrast, giving us short, Arbitration-style mini-events where certain weapons, frames, etc. receive certain buffs means the developers get to make their entire playerbase stress test experimental changes without needing to commit to them if they don't work as intended. Not only could this introduce more variety to the game by giving us rapid-fire events with some little changes to play with, it could give DE much more room for experimentation, and allow them to refine their more permanent updates much better by implementing changes that have undergone proper testing beforehand.

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18 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

I think the idea behind the OP's suggestion is actually kind of brilliant: there's a lot of uncertainty to the game's balance, and leaving it to massive rebalancing patches leaves a lot to chance, especially since those changes usually turn out differently than expected through mass testing. Going back on those changes is also difficult and likely embarrassing, which is why DE pretty much never reverts updates that go wrong. By contrast, giving us short, Arbitration-style mini-events where certain weapons, frames, etc. receive certain buffs means the developers get to make their entire playerbase stress test experimental changes without needing to commit to them if they don't work as intended. Not only could this introduce more variety to the game by giving us rapid-fire events with some little changes to play with, it could give DE much more room for experimentation, and allow them to refine their more permanent updates much better by implementing changes that have undergone proper testing beforehand.

i though they were actually watching it trought sortie sanctuary and arbitration statistiks

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