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The so called Third Orb Trial, please do not lock out solo players.


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solo player here, one of the main reasons to adcvocate for solo play is because more humans = more chance for human aerror. you may have heard the expression "if you want a job done properly, do it yourself", and that rings true when doing hard content in videogames as well. I'm far more likley get 3 perfect, undetected extractions in a spay mission than running with 3 random people, who likely do not know the vaults like I do. I get that might come across as "hur dur I'm better than you" but that's only in that one situation. in other game modes it's preferable to have other players, like Interception so that you can capture points faster.

there should always be the option to solo content, for those who are willing to try it. forcing Co-Op is what killed off trials, and makes for annoyances in other games. can't do the doomsday heist in GTA without 3 other people for example, which just gates it out for some people. forced solo meanwhile just creates a feeling of isolation in most people, so there are extremes at both ends.

also, "trial-like" could just mean something as simple as adding some kind of puzzle element and/or progression mechanic to the boss fight, as opposed to it just being a straight up DPS fest like the other Orb Mothers. until we know more, we can't actually be sure of anything.

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19 minutes ago, DrivaMain said:

I think the middle ground is make the trial difficulty and rewards in amount or drop chance scale by the amount of players. I should probably add this to the OP. At least this will keep both sides somewhat happy.

If they were to scale the difficulty they would definitely have to scale the rewards as well. Deimos plays with difficulty scaling in a group with no reward scaling, just pushes players away from group play. Solo you can easily get bonuses, but in a group you might have to do up to 3 times as much work when your allies are slacking off, all for no gain. 

Perhaps it's just how the objectives scale in the CD that is bad, making things take longer because you are in a group is no fun.

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1 minute ago, (PSN)robotwars7 said:

forcing Co-Op is what killed off trials, 

Second person to parrot this. Trials died because they were a mess of spaghetti code that the devs were pulling their hair out to debug, all for the sake of a game mode that had nothing in common with anything else in the game. "Forced co-op" was such a distant third that its light takes seven minutes to reach the Earth

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3 hours ago, VisionAndVoice said:

Why are you so scared of interacting with your fellow players?

Because we shouldn't have to listen to people burp, yell, and make terrible, possibly degrading jokes on mics to get rewards?

Edit: With that said, I'm open and am willing to try it. It'll be fun, but my plan is to learn the mechanics and multiple roles so I dont have to listen to someone tell me something I already know.

Edited by (PSN)Madurai-Prime
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3 hours ago, VisionAndVoice said:

Why are you so scared of interacting with your fellow players?

Why are you against solo players getting to be by themselves if they want to? They are playing by themselves, it doesn't affect you at all. 

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10 minutes ago, TARINunit9 said:

Second person to parrot this. Trials died because they were a mess of spaghetti code that the devs were pulling their hair out to debug, all for the sake of a game mode that had nothing in common with anything else in the game. "Forced co-op" was such a distant third that its light takes seven minutes to reach the Earth

ok, I'll rephrase: Forced Co-Op didn't help trials at all. and can be counted as one of, but not the main reason, that trials failed. happy?

forcing people to go co-op or solo is not the way to go, for any game mode. 

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34 minutes ago, Voltage said:

Still disagree. I think it's healthy to lock some select rewards behind team-based victory/completion.

Oh well we agree to disagree then.

Exclusivity breeds toxicity. We saw this with Eidolon and old trial arcane gate keeping.

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7 minutes ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

Because we shouldn't have to listen to people burp, yell, and make terrible, possibly degrading jokes on mics to get rewards?

Where the hell are you finding players that use mics? The Vatican should be hiring you to find the Holy Grail and the True Cross, keep that luck from going to waste

(Oh I see you're on console, that might do it)

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I personally don't mind co-op, as long as it stays within the 4 player range. I prefer to either pug or play with friends on any given game, and when games try to shove the 8+ player content down everyone's throats, it ends up being irritating. I often get stuck playing with a premade I don't want to be apart of just to get rewards.

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7 minutes ago, TARINunit9 said:

Where the hell are you finding players that use mics? The Vatican should be hiring you to find the Holy Grail and the True Cross, keep that luck from going to waste

(Oh I see you're on console, that might do it)

The occasional pug has a mic user playing music or eating. It's not a big deal I just turn my tv back down.

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3 hours ago, VisionAndVoice said:

Why are you so scared of interacting with your fellow players?

I don't want to play as host. I might ruin it for other players... that's primarily why I play solo most of the time.

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I find eidolons a perfect balance between solo and co op. Profit taker and orphix venom also. I think solo should be incredibly hard at the start solo, but with time and effort a solo player should be able to easily complete it after investing double what co op players do. It's much better to reward co op players than it is to punish solo players (by making it impossible to play)

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1 hour ago, TARINunit9 said:

Which I can agree with, but is completely separate from the point I was making

Yes, there probably is a way to bring Trials back, with fewer bugs, that makes veterans happy. But OP was just complaining that they were co-op only with no solo option, and thus automatically bad and irredeemable

My point was that I feel you can make valuable and healthy additions to the game that don't necessarily cater to the majority. Alienating dedicated players over the years is costing DE the game's health, but maybe not necessarily money or income. 

Forced co-op in Warframe is a good idea for the health of the game going forward.

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When you are forced to have more than one player to do a mission, it becomes toxic. I know thats such a generalization, but its true. Ive only ever even attempted a couple eidolon fights(yes I know theyre soloable, but thats not possible for me), and left before completing because each time I went into a pub match and didnt do precisely what the veteran/completely geared-up player wanted, I get a wall of text telling me how bad I am. Why would anyone want to deal with that? Why should we have to? Thats what the geared-up, long time vets dont get. Not everyone is gonna be as good as you or have all the meta gear. And we get a screen full of insults when we don't. Thats why I normally play solo, and also why I think all content should be accessible to solo players. Im not saying make it easy. In borderlands 3, the raid matches scale with number of players. I dont think it would be too difficult to implement that in this scenario

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5 hours ago, DrivaMain said:

You got to understand that sometime players want some “me time” playing alone. Sure I can form a group to complete that trial, but I do not want to be forced to do that every time to experience this content.

Old Trials have one a major flaw and that is forced co-operation.  It is why old trials are hated by many. Based on DE stats on 2017 only 0.34% of players actually played Trials.

You can play any of the rest of the game for that. YOU'VE go to understand that some clans wants some CLAN TIME and allow that 1% of the game could possibly be designed for team work.

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1 hour ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

I'm open and am willing to try it. It'll be fun, but my plan is to learn the mechanics and multiple roles so I dont have to listen to someone tell me something I already know.

Worse - someone telling you you are a noob or lame or useless because you don't already know the mechanics, haven't already got the equipment and skills, and haven't cheesed it and got to extraction in 2 minutes flat.

Ultimately co-op works if the players are roughly equal or matched better. When its randoms clunked together, its a mess. The open world bounties are already evidence of that.

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2 minutes ago, gbjbaanb said:

Worse - someone telling you you are a noob or lame or useless because you don't already know the mechanics, haven't already got the equipment and skills, and haven't cheesed it and got to extraction in 2 minutes flat.

Ultimately co-op works if the players are roughly equal or matched better. When its randoms clunked together, its a mess. The open world bounties are already evidence of that.

Yea exactly. If some MR 27 calls people an effing idiot for failing a spy sortie, what do you thinks gonna happen in all these pub raids? 

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42 minutes ago, Voltage said:

Alienating dedicated players over the years is costing DE the game's health, but maybe not necessarily money or income. 

Forced co-op in Warframe is a good idea for the health of the game going forward

DE is not owned by Tencent. They don't care about your old playters. They care about the money. The money comes from new players, and a good rotation of new guys coming in, buying some prime access pack, levelling up to be mid-tier and then leaving (hopefully to return in a year or two to buy another pack) is all part of the business model. The old players who have everything are a cost - new content is required for them, and that costs a lot of money, money that the old players never contribute because they already have the plat from sales, or the equipment to grind for the new content anyway.  The health of the game is based around DE making the experience for new players better, and they don't do this, which is why a lot of the game is rather unhealthy.

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2 minutes ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

Yea exactly. If some MR 27 calls people an effing idiot for failing a spy sortie, what do you thinks gonna happen in all these pub raids? 

Radical suggestion seeing as it's already going to be segregated by the solo players. Just make it not possible to join a public group for it, make it recruitment from the host only. Might give clans some more meaning though I do of course realise the drawback of potential toxicity in recruit chat. 

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3 minutes ago, -CdG-Zilchy said:

Radical suggestion seeing as it's already going to be segregated by the solo players. Just make it not possible to join a public group for it, make it recruitment from the host only. Might give clans some more meaning though I do of course realise the drawback of potential toxicity in recruit chat. 

Well that's an outlier I'd hope. The community is good at bringing people into clans and teaching them. A long time ago we had to apply to things like clans in Final Fantasy lol. We had to apply like a job and show we were worthy of running the top tier content and deserving of the top rewards. 

There will be some bugs and growing pains but once the majority of players learn the raid it'll be much easier.

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I've always said that matchmaking needs some love. Like open world bounties - they should be more of a notice board of players about to enter the world and attempt a mission, and other players can add their names to the roster. Such would allow MR ranking or some other criteria to be used to separate players by skill, and would also allow players to wait for a full squad. Sure, this is a rough concept and the implementation would have to be easy and accesible, but it would make a huge difference. Its possible such could be used for other missions - I never want to attempt solo interceptions, Railjack, (or defence TBH for the company) but I always want to do solo spy and exterminate at my own pace.

The trouble with making it clan based is that the clans are tiny in comparison to the number of players online so keeping it public but controlled makes a lot of sense.

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2 hours ago, TARINunit9 said:

That was not why they had such big problems. Trials died for two reasons, neither of which was "they couldn't be done solo"

1. Constant bugs. Every single patch broke something, and it was quite often a progression stopper. I filled up two pages in a word doc of Jordas Verdict progression stoppers alone, and that was just the ones that made it to patch notes. Combined with spotty p2p connection and it was recipe for frustration

2. Co-op was fine with players, but they were seen as too esoteric, too insulated from the rest of the game. You would go in, solve these two puzzles that appeared nowhere else in the game, and then just know the solution for next time. You were either in a "Raid school bus" being babied along, or in a speedrun group demanding you had optimized gear, one step removed from the "50 dkp minus" raid teams of WoW

"WHELPS! LEFT SIDE! HANDLE IT!"

Now that THAT is out of my system, onward!

I ran a lot of the old raids back then myself. I know plenty of the issues groups had back then was connection issues and bugs that kept coming back every patch, and agree with both points here, that it wasn't that no one was running it (or at least from what I saw anyways. Sure as hell was a TON larger and healthier player base then Lunaro ever had). I never liked how running LoR was easier/faster with less people then with a full group. They never quite figured out how to utilize all 8 people without having folks sit and wait for someone else to do something (such as the combo lock in LoR part 2).

IMO, anything "raid"-like they try to do should stick to 4 man groups, but make having all 4 slots filled mandatory, and have something for everyone to do throughout to contribute and push the mission forward. Such as, if at minimum, have the rest of the group survive hordes of enemies while someone hacks a console or something to that effect, so at least no one is getting bored to tears waiting.

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11 minutes ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

Well that's an outlier I'd hope. The community is good at bringing people into clans and teaching them. A long time ago we had to apply to things like clans in Final Fantasy lol. We had to apply like a job and show we were worthy of running the top tier content and deserving of the top rewards. 

There will be some bugs and growing pains but once the majority of players learn the raid it'll be much easier.

It would sure cut out the toxicity of random players complaining or being abused in public. I see no problem with 1% of the game being designed behind encouraging clans and giving that aspect a little more purpose. And yeh, over time the recruitment chat would also soften if people were learning it as they play in their own clans or with friends.

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I'm for exclusive cooperative raids, I think Warframe has been without them for too long, I enjoyed trails, and would like to see it back in some form, even if it's not in the "raid" format, I also believe there is no middle ground here, so making any part of it "solo-able" is something I won't be on board for. I think the sooner they play up the cooperative part of their game, the easier it will be for players to accept and even enjoy cooperative play, there is a lot of potential there, and I think it would be a good idea to lean into the social aspects of Warframe.

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