The so called Third Orb Trial, please do not lock out solo players.

[LillyRaccune]

2 hours ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

Because we shouldn't have to listen to people burp, yell, and make terrible, possibly degrading jokes on mics to get rewards?

StartMenu> Options> Audio> Enable Voice + Voice Receive Volume slider

I have both of those set to off on my PC and PS4. If I want voice chat I'll join discord or a PSN group. The obnoxious, abusive voices of strangers is unacceptable.

[Miser_able]

6 hours ago, VisionAndVoice said:

Why are you so scared of interacting with your fellow players?

its not just about wanting to not play with others. for 3 years my computer and connection weren't good enough to play with people. I was LITERALLY incapable of playing with other people, because of this I was effectively banned from raids and missed on everything because of it.

[Ace-Bounty-Hunter]

6 hours ago, VisionAndVoice said:

Why are you so scared of interacting with your fellow players?

Only times I group up is when I'm cracking relics. Anything else, other players are just a liability. 

[-CdG-Zilchy]

6 minutes ago, Miser_able said:

its not just about wanting to not play with others. for 3 years my computer and connection weren't good enough to play with people. I was LITERALLY incapable of playing with other people, because of this I was effectively banned from raids and missed on everything because of it.

While that's unfortunate and I can sympathise with you, should the rest of the world's players be denied things because of this?

[Miser_able]

45 minutes ago, -CdG-Zilchy said:

While that's unfortunate and I can sympathise with you, should the rest of the world's players be denied things because of this?

you're not being denied anything. the exact opposite, forcing people do use squads to even play the content DENIES people in that situation access.

[-CdG-Zilchy]

1 minute ago, Miser_able said:

you're not being denied anything. the exact opposite, forcing people do use squads to even play the content DENIES people in that situation access.

Actually I am, I'm being denied the opportunity to play a mission that actually REQUIRES teamwork and coordination with my clan mates. Seeing as currently 100% of the game is solo-able I don't consider it being selfish to want 1% of the game to give some meaning and reason to clans. Unless you think 99% of the game being catered to you isn't enough?

[Kraethius]

5 minutes ago, Miser_able said:

you're not being denied anything. the exact opposite, forcing people do use squads to even play the content DENIES people in that situation access.

They're denied exclusivity, which is technically denying denying. Which is kinda funny in itself.

[-CdG-Zilchy]

3 minutes ago, Kraethius said:

They're denied exclusivity, which is technically denying denying. Which is kinda funny in itself.

The fact you think I care about exclusivity is very amusing to me. I don't actually care what the rewards are or if they're only to be found in that content. What I care about is being able to jump on my discord's vc with my clan mates and have a great time doing an hour long Trial for example, in content that actually requires coordination and is FUN.

[Miser_able]

Just now, -CdG-Zilchy said:

Actually I am, I'm being denied the opportunity to play a mission that actually REQUIRES teamwork and coordination with my clan mates. Seeing as currently 100% of the game is solo-able I don't consider it being selfish to want 1% of the game to give some meaning and reason to clans. Unless you think 99% of the game being catered to you isn't enough?

no system in the game should REQUIRE teamwork, however endgame systems should instead HEAVILY ENCOURAGE it.
take for instance, Eidolon hunting one of the most common teamwork activities right now and the content that replaced raids. it is POSSIBLE to do eidolons solo, however it is heavily inefficient, most people barely making it past a full trilo with effort where as a full team can do 6x3 pretty regularly. this means that forced solo players are not locked out anything, but they are still encouraged to cooperate.
Raids should be the same way. Find some way to encourage teamwork, but don't require it. Make rewards scale based off team mates, make bonus objectives that reward more loot but require more players (coop puzzles), increases enemy spawns and for more drops if the raids have a unique resource, something like that. Forcing people to work together does not produce a happy working environment, instead it breeds toxicity and resentment.

[Kraethius]

Just now, -CdG-Zilchy said:

The fact you think I care about exclusivity is very amusing to me. I don't actually care what the rewards are or if they're only to be found in that content. What I care about is being able to jump on my discord's vc with my clan mates and have a great time doing an hour long Trial for example, in content that actually requires coordination and is FUN.

And that's most definitely excluding solo play. Which most solo players do and they're not an insignificant part of the playerbase from my observations.

Imagine if solo players started demanding content that MUST be completed solo. I doubt you'd be on board with that, would you?

[Tesseract7777]

9 minutes ago, -CdG-Zilchy said:

Actually I am, I'm being denied the opportunity to play a mission that actually REQUIRES teamwork and coordination with my clan mates. Seeing as currently 100% of the game is solo-able I don't consider it being selfish to want 1% of the game to give some meaning and reason to clans. Unless you think 99% of the game being catered to you isn't enough?

I am all for adding a few parts of the game that actually require a little coop, however, and this is just my opinion, but considering the nature of the game, I think any coop only missions should still be reasonably pug-able.

I think the problem with trials before (the problem of so few people playing it, which caused the devs to drop it because all the bug fixing didn't feel worth their time) was because it just wasn't something designed where you can jump into a group and do it. You HAD to make a premade group and it became more and more of a clan only thing, and the longer trials went on, the more people expected experience, or at least you using a microphone so they could properly train you on how to do it, without some failure state like people not staying on pads or something screwing up the mission. 

It was a bit too exclusive before imo, but that shouldn't mean we can't have any coop only content. It's a coop game. It just needed to be tweaked. 

I'd wager the vast, casual masses, mainly just jump into games, they don't use recruit, they don't setup a mission with their mates in a clan, they just do a pick up game, and if they can't, they just don't. So trials didn't get played. 

[-CdG-Zilchy]

1 minute ago, Miser_able said:

no system in the game should REQUIRE teamwork, however endgame systems should instead HEAVILY ENCOURAGE it.

In a PVE game marketed as co-op, that is the most backward thinking I've heard all week. 

[-CdG-Zilchy]

1 minute ago, Kraethius said:

Imagine if solo players started demanding content that MUST be completed solo. I doubt you'd be on board with that, would you?

That's EXACTLY what they do every single day, everytime a new piece of content comes out lol. Are you blind? Is this your first on the forums? 

[Kraethius]

1 minute ago, -CdG-Zilchy said:

That's EXACTLY what they do every single day, everytime a new piece of content comes out lol. Are you blind? Is this your first on the forums? 

I have never, not once, seen a demand that anything in this game MUST be completed solo. All I'm seeing is people asking for the OPTION to complete things solo.

[-CdG-Zilchy]

2 minutes ago, Tesseract7777 said:

I am all for adding a few parts of the game that actually require a little coop, however, and this is just my opinion, but considering the nature of the game, I think any coop only missions should still be reasonably pug-able.

I think the problem with trials before (the problem of so few people playing it, which caused the devs to drop it because all the bug fixing didn't feel worth their time) was because it just wasn't something designed where you can jump into a group and do it. You HAD to make a premade group and it became more and more of a clan only thing, and the longer trials went on, the more people expected experience, or at least you using a microphone so they could properly train you on how to do it, without some failure state like people not staying on pads or something screwing up the mission. 

It was a bit too exclusive before imo, but that shouldn't mean we can't have any coop only content. It's a coop game. It just needed to be tweaked. 

Sure make it pugable, I suggested recruit only purely as a means of avoiding the toxicity of public. But as soon as you make it not as hard or not requiring good coordination, you make it soloable, so I'm against that. Because as Voltage mentioned earlier, that makes it trivial in a group hence not fun. Which by the way is what Eidolons are with a good group, boring, un-fun.

[-CdG-Zilchy]

Just now, Kraethius said:

I have never, not once, seen a demand that anything in this game MUST be completed solo. All I'm seeing is people asking for the OPTION to complete things solo.

The second you demand something be solo-able it's the same damn thing or rather it has the same effect. It trivializes any content that is done by a group.

[(PSN)AyinDygra]

3 minutes ago, Miser_able said:

no system in the game should REQUIRE teamwork, however endgame systems should instead HEAVILY ENCOURAGE it.
take for instance, Eidolon hunting one of the most common teamwork activities right now and the content that replaced raids. it is POSSIBLE to do eidolons solo, however it is heavily inefficient, most people barely making it past a full trilo with effort where as a full team can do 6x3 pretty regularly. this means that forced solo players are not locked out anything, but they are still encouraged to cooperate.
Raids should be the same way. Find some way to encourage teamwork, but don't require it. Make rewards scale based off team mates, make bonus objectives that reward more loot but require more players (coop puzzles), increases enemy spawns and for more drops if the raids have a unique resource, something like that. Forcing people to work together does not produce a happy working environment, instead it breeds toxicity and resentment.

I'm using this post as a springboard to reply off of, and build on (not entirely focused at you).

I agree that no system in the game should require teamwork, and should instead encourage it. (like Interception and the Demolist one that I never play.)

I disagree with rewards scaling off of team mates, since I consider a solo effort to be much more intensive in many cases, and requiring more personal skill than just relying on other people, making it easy mode in a group. I always see group content rewards as getting more for doing something easier than solo, and it never made sense to me.

 

I would say as long as the rewards from the content can be earned solo (even elsewhere, and keeping the event co-op focused and balanced), I'd be OK with it. They would also have to make sure this content does not become a gateway/blockade for other solo content in the future... so it must be absolutely optional to be acceptable to me.

This way, both solo and co-op players could be happy. Elitist people who want to keep content exclusive to one mode or the other have no sympathy from me - I do not and will not ever agree with that stance.

 

 

 

 

[Tesseract7777]

7 minutes ago, -CdG-Zilchy said:

Sure make it pugable, I suggested recruit only purely as a means of avoiding the toxicity of public. But as soon as you make it not as hard or not requiring good coordination, you make it soloable, so I'm against that. Because as Voltage mentioned earlier, that makes it trivial in a group hence not fun. Which by the way is what Eidolons are with a good group, boring, un-fun.

I think it is a tricky balance, to be sure. And I understand what you are saying. How do you make content that can be done with rando's, without making it too easy for people who are prepared together with VC? How do you make that mission ALSO soloable, without trivializing things for everyone else? 

Part of the problem is that DE often tries to be all things to all people, and ends up satisfying no one. 

How can you properly cater to solo players, and clans, and rando's who just jump into games all at once, without making at least a few pieces of content that are meant for one group, but don't satisfy the other/and or lock out the other groups? It seems almost impossible, without setting priorities, deciding who your main players are, and deciding what tone you want to set for the game and matchmaking in general, and letting the whiners whine. 

DE is too sensitive, and when solo players get upset that one single piece of content is actually built for groups, they throw a fit and DE caves every. single. time. 

I think they shoot themselves in the foot sometimes though, by trying to cater to all people, you set yourself an impossible task. It's a coop game, but every time they move toward increasing the reason for clans to exist, there is a huge backlash, and they cave. Remember when Liches were going to be a kingpin system that would make clans more relevant? 

By caving to the demands that you can solo everything, they please solo players who might otherwise quit, but they make it almost impossible for clans to have any reason to exist, outside of things like what your clans do, where you make up your own rank up challenges and stuff. Because of DE's constant catering to solo players every whim, clans don't get to really exist they way they do in a lot of multiplayer games, and it is a damn shame solo players whine so hard the moment clans are ever offered even ONE THING to make them relevant. You aren't even asking to lock them out of rewards, just the content. 

[Kraethius]

Just now, -CdG-Zilchy said:

The second you demand something be solo-able it's the same damn thing or rather it has the same effect. It trivializes any content that is done by a group.

So it was a strawman. The content doesn't need to be identical. Difficulty scaling isn't anything new. Would you agree that having an option for solo play, that was tuned for solo play and available for solo play only would be a win-win if groups also got their own versions?

[-CdG-Zilchy]

5 minutes ago, Kraethius said:

So it was a strawman. The content doesn't need to be identical. Difficulty scaling isn't anything new. Would you agree that having an option for solo play, that was tuned for solo play and available for solo play only would be a win-win if groups also got their own versions?

Oh no you're one of those people who resorts to buzz words, please don't, it makes me feel like I'm talking to Google. 

If it had a scaling option it's possible but the issue is you remove aspects such as having 2 players in different areas of the tile having to trigger something at the same time to progress, for example shutting down a defense screen or how in JV you had players outside and inside completing simultaneous tasks. You take that away and you take away the FUN. In said example of JV letting your team mates get squished for a start so they can yell at you on your clan's vc :D

[--DSP--Jetstream]

DE should make it soloable, but also make it very painful to do so to encourage teamplay.

hehehe

[-CdG-Zilchy]

11 minutes ago, Tesseract7777 said:

I think it is a tricky balance, to be sure. And I understand what you are saying. How do you make content that can be done with rando's, without making it too easy for people who are prepared together with VC? How do you make that mission ALSO soloable, without trivializing things for everyone else? 

Part of the problem is that DE often tries to be all things to all people, and ends up satisfying no one. 

How can you properly cater to solo players, and clans, and rando's who just jump into games all at once, without making at least a few pieces of content that are meant for one group, but don't satisfy the other/and or lock out the other groups? It seems almost impossible, without setting priorities, deciding who your main players are, and deciding what tone you want to set for the game and matchmaking in general, and letting the whiners whine. 

DE is too sensitive, and when solo players get upset that one single piece of content is actually built for groups, they throw a fit and DE caves every. single. time. 

I think they shoot themselves in the foot sometimes though, by trying to cater to all people, you set yourself an impossible task. It's a coop game, but every time they move toward increasing the reason for clans to exist, there is a huge backlash, and they cave. Remember when Liches were going to be a kingpin system that would make clans more relevant? 

By caving to the demands that you can solo everything, they please solo players who might otherwise quit, but they make it almost impossible for clans to have any reason to exist, outside of things like what your clans do, where you make up your own rank up challenges and stuff. Because of DE's constant catering to solo players every whim, clans don't get to really exist they way they do in a lot of multiplayer games, and it is a damn shame solo players whine so hard the moment clans are ever offered even ONE THING to make them relevant. You aren't even asking to lock them out of rewards, just the content. 

Personally the easiest way is to remove exclusivity from the rewards. People who complain against teamwork don't realise that some of us don't give a damn about the rewards, that's not why we play. We play if it's fun, which is why most of my clan resembles sleeping necrons. I managed to wake them up to compete in Orphix Venom and now they slumber once more, playing other games they find fun, playing co-op. 3 of them had to reinstall the game, one of them had 452 days since last login. Those players would all return if we had Trials, fun, difficult missions that require teamwork and also allow us to meme on each other and do stupid stuff, all while enjoying a few drinks and chatting rubbish on discord vc. 

[Kraethius]

7 minutes ago, -CdG-Zilchy said:

Oh no you're one of those people who resorts to buzz words, please don't, it makes me feel like I'm talking to Google. 

If it had a scaling option it's possible but the issue is you remove aspects such as having 2 players in different areas of the tile having to trigger something at the same time to progress, for example shutting down a defense screen or how in JV you had players outside and inside completing simultaneous tasks. You take that away and you take away the FUN. In said example of JV letting your team mates get squished for a start so they can yell at you on your clan's vc :D

Pointing out a common argument fallacy hardly counts as a buzzword.

They could have that aspect in the group diffculties while having something else on solo. You're trying to make things sound more rigid than they really are. Would you agree to my earlier proposition if that was the case?

[-CdG-Zilchy]

1 minute ago, Kraethius said:

Pointing out a common argument fallacy hardly counts as a buzzword.

They could have that aspect in the group diffculties while having something else on solo. You're trying to make things sound more rigid than they really are. Would you agree to my earlier proposition if that was the case?

Fair point, it's not your fault it's social media and the fact everyone uses terms like strawman, gas lighting, adhominen etc that it makes it feel like I'm talking to an angry teen on facebook or something equally awful, instead of having a mature discussion. It's a me thing, not your fault. Simply saying "so now you're changing tact" sounds more human.

Well the issue is that how do you then balance the rewards? The second you add more rewards to group missions, solo players will cry, that's what they do. If you instead create a longer, more interesting mission and lock solo players out of it, they will still cry. It doesn't even matter of there's no extra rewards, they'll complain they're being locked out.

[Vlaun]

It's really quite simple: the game should offer the ability to solo it, but make it so that the trials would be difficult to pull off solo by the simple fact that it's team based oriented. Such a thing is already possible for the other content geared for team play, like Eidolons and Railjack, so why not?

In another game entirely (Destiny 1) I solo ran a raid to get an achievement. It was possible to do, the game didn't even block me loading into the raid solo, but it certainly was no cakewalk. The game did not scale back because I was the only player. As far as the game was concerned I was a team, it simply didn't care. Also some portions required teamwork so I had to utilize some wit (and bug exploitation) to get through it. A lot of cheese strategies were made with a lot of close calls, but in the end I did achieve the solo run and got the achievement. I don't see why that can't be the case for trials in Warframe.

Although, admittedly I do believe bungie patched some of the bugs that made that solo run possible but I was well beyond Destiny and was tenno by that point.