The so called Third Orb Trial, please do not lock out solo players.

[-CdG-Zilchy]

51 minutes ago, Aldain said:

To me the only thing in the game I'd say just plain isn't fun to solo in any capacity is Profit-Taker.

But that's just me, I hate the variable mono-damage shield gimmick when we already have WAY TOO MANY damage types as-is.

That's why you shove as many elements as possible onto a melee with Contagion arcane on it which covers all IPS plus Blast. Then you shove the rest on a magnetic kuva nukor and 1 or 2 on your Zenith. Then you're all good with minimal switching.

[Aldain]

Just now, -CdG-Zilchy said:

That's why you shove as many elements as possible onto a melee with Contagion arcane on it which covers all IPS plus Blast. Then you shove the rest on a magnetic kuva nukor and  or 2 on your Zenith. Then you're all good with minimal switching.

Oh I know many of the tricks (though I didn't know about the Contagion trick until now), but I just don't like the fight's design on a personal level. I'd rather a fight be won by execution rather than solved in the loadout, but that's just me.

5 minutes ago, -CdG-Zilchy said:

Oh I see, I'm sorry I misunderstood. Yes I agree the nightmare version of Raids is the ideal setting for pleasing us elitists(speaking of myself that is).

I hate how I keep bringing up Final Fantasy 14 these days, but I can't help but praise how they go about having both a "Normal/Story" difficulty and a "Savage/Extreme" difficulty, one for both types of players.

Ideally that is what a difficulty selection should do imo, offer benefits for personally pushing oneself to do the harder content, but not lock people out of the basic experience or hide required gear behind it.

Of course that's just my personal preference for game design, I like difficulty selection to stay more on the intrinsic side overall.

[-CdG-Zilchy]

2 minutes ago, Aldain said:

Oh I know many of the tricks (though I didn't know about the Contagion trick until now), but I just don't like the fight's design on a personal level. I'd rather a fight be won by execution rather than solved in the loadout, but that's just me.

I hate how I keep bringing up Final Fantasy 14 these days, but I can't help but praise how they go about having both a "Normal/Story" difficulty and a "Savage/Extreme" difficulty, one for both types of players.

Ideally that is what a difficulty selection should do imo, offer benefits for personally pushing oneself to do the harder content, but not lock people out of the basic experience or hide required gear behind it.

Of course that's just my personal preference for game design, I like difficulty selection to stay more on the intrinsic side overall.

We were just discussing it on my clan discord and it seems a good consensus that in order to create difficulty in Warframe you have to ignore nerfing abilities, operator dashing and focus skills etc and instead, focus on the "space ninja" side of things ie the parkour. Create a boss fight for example that requires you to be in your frame, unable to use your abilities(still free to use weapons) and a boss that is running away and requires parkour and movement skills learnt in game, to catch up and hit weakpoints on the enemy boss(blending a challenge of aiming while moving) in order to slow it down and damage it. This obstacle course would also be randomised so as not to be able to simply learn the pattern of getting through it easily. This kind of reaction on the fly-based movement and accuracy would be a step in the direction of adding actual challenge to a boss fight or Trial/Raid etc. Adding in additional things like say impassable energy barriers which require shooting or activating panels on the move would add extra challenge layers to such a scenario.

[Aldain]

1 minute ago, -CdG-Zilchy said:

We were just discussing it on my clan discord and it seems a good consensus that in order to create difficulty in Warframe you have to ignore nerfing abilities, operator dashing and focus skills etc and instead, focus on the "space ninja" side of things ie the parkour. Create a boss fight for example that requires you to be in your frame, unable to use your abilities(still free to use weapons) and a boss that is running away and requires parkour and movement skills learnt in game, to catch up and hit weakpoints on the enemy boss(blending a challenge of aiming while moving) in order to slow it down and damage it. This obstacle course would also be randomised so as not to be able to simply learn the pattern of getting through it easily. This kind of reaction on the fly-based movement and accuracy would be a step in the direction of adding actual challenge to a boss fight or Trial/Raid etc. Adding in additional things like say impassable energy barriers which require shooting or activating panels on the move would add extra challenge layers to such a scenario.

Sounds a bit like expounding on Ralph's fight design, I enjoyed how Ropalolyst had some platforming elements and how kiddo dash wasn't the solution to everything, though I have heard some people disliked Ralph so maybe I'm just weird. 

I could see a good backdrop for that being something like chasing Vay Hek through a Formorian factory and fighting room by room with different traditional Warframe objectives to proceed until reaching the core and the main fight with Vay Hek, you could even tack in an escape phase before the factory goes nuclear. Have additional rewards be funneled into the players if they complete things in a timely fashion or complete secondary objectives on top of the normal completion rewards.

You could actually have that Normal vs "Nightmare" mode applied to this as well, shift around the reward tables to be more generous to "Nightmare" players or have additional more complex phases applied to the harder version exclusively to give an incentive to get better at completing it, maybe also add a few unique cosmetics for completing hard mode in addition to the better drop tables and you'd have something that might draw in a higher effort crowd pretty easily.

...Of course the math is still a bit too screwed up to support it properly imo, but conceptually such things could be done with a proper balance in place fairly easily.

[-CdG-Zilchy]

1 minute ago, Aldain said:

I could see a good backdrop for that being something like chasing Vay Hek through a Formorian factory and fighting room by room with different traditional Warframe objectives to proceed until reaching the core and the main fight with Vay Hek, you could even tack in an escape phase before the factory goes nuclear. Have additional rewards be funneled into the players if they complete things in a timely fashion or complete secondary objectives on top of the normal completion rewards.

YESSSSSS

 

1 minute ago, Aldain said:

You could actually have that Normal vs "Nightmare" mode applied to this as well, shift around the reward tables to be more generous to "Nightmare" players or have additional more complex phases applied to the harder version exclusively to give an incentive to get better at completing it, maybe also add a few unique cosmetics for completing hard mode in addition to the better drop tables and you'd have something that might draw in a higher effort crowd pretty easily.

...Of course the math is still a bit too screwed up to support it properly imo, but conceptually such things could be done with a proper balance in place fairly easily.

A difficult balancing act no question but a good starting point. In my mind that would only be one section of a proper Trial just as Raids had 3 sections. Each should have a mini-boss.

[Aldain]

Just now, -CdG-Zilchy said:

A difficult balancing act no question but a good starting point. In my mind that would only be one section of a proper Trial just as Raids had 3 sections. Each should have a mini-boss.

Hm three sections...

Now I'm picturing a space/approach phase utilizing Railjacks and Archwings with maybe a trench run through a defending capital ship to gain access, a "fight to the core/main boss" phase as mentioned above and the escape phase with a barely alive and vengeful Vay Hek trying to take you down with him.

All of which has just made the escape theme from Metroid start blaring in my head loudly and wishing this were already a thing in game.

[Kaotyke]

27 minutes ago, -CdG-Zilchy said:

We were just discussing it on my clan discord and it seems a good consensus that in order to create difficulty in Warframe you have to ignore nerfing abilities, operator dashing and focus skills etc and instead, focus on the "space ninja" side of things ie the parkour. Create a boss fight for example that requires you to be in your frame, unable to use your abilities(still free to use weapons) and a boss that is running away and requires parkour and movement skills learnt in game, to catch up and hit weakpoints on the enemy boss(blending a challenge of aiming while moving) in order to slow it down and damage it. This obstacle course would also be randomised so as not to be able to simply learn the pattern of getting through it easily. This kind of reaction on the fly-based movement and accuracy would be a step in the direction of adding actual challenge to a boss fight or Trial/Raid etc. Adding in additional things like say impassable energy barriers which require shooting or activating panels on the move would add extra challenge layers to such a scenario.

Ah.... such fight will be called "cheesy".

[-CdG-Zilchy]

12 minutes ago, Kaotyke said:

Ah.... such fight will be called "cheesy".

The whole purpose is to make a fight that cannot be cheesed. I think it's more likely it will be named a content island.

[Kaotyke]

18 minutes ago, -CdG-Zilchy said:

The whole purpose is to make a fight that cannot be cheesed. I think it's more likely it will be named a content island.

Nah, what I meant is that the fight itself, the mechanics, will be called cheesy. Not that we would cheese.

[-CdG-Zilchy]

Just now, Kaotyke said:

Nah, what I meant is that the fight itself, the mechanics, will be called cheesy. Not that we would cheese.

oh, yeh absolutely it will lol 😄

[Aldain]

Honestly the only thing I find "cheesy" would be something like a constant concern over wiping the entire raid from one mistake, that was something I held in contempt from Destiny and was a major component to why I never invested in raiding.

The toughest part I feel in raid design is getting the appropriate margin for error down to where it is challenging but fair and the chance for recovery from small errors.

[CephalonCarnage]

3 hours ago, Aldain said:

I could see a good backdrop for that being something like chasing Vay Hek through a Formorian factory and fighting room by room with different traditional Warframe objectives to proceed until reaching the core and the main fight with Vay Hek

The Sergeant requires a rework - time for sarge to become a group take-down, him and his 3 clone/holo buddies that really don't want to be fought, so run away from you like a capture target who's had too many energy drinks. You have to chase them down, the holos are easy to kill but sarge has a few tricks to survive. The corpus ship has a lot of space to get through after all.

 

But there's a problem - all the boss battles are roughly the same, get in quickj, kill the boss quick, get out and check your loot reards screen for that warframe part you've been farming for. Swear loudly at having picked up the same part you already have 20 of from previous runs, consider your life choices. Then click "repeat mission".

If a boss battle was long and troublesome, you'd see complaints. Like the Ambulas fight that requires a long time of waiting for the drop ships to arrive.

[LillyRaccune]

What if DE employed specters for trials, the same way that Index does? Solo-play would be nerfed but not-impossible and the specters would already know their role to play. Also if squad mates disconnected, the mission could still continue (although I would prefer if they could reconnect instead of "Unable to invite. The objective has already been completed").

Spoiler

"Why did you disconnect?!"  "Network not responding."

 

[Kaotyke]

2 hours ago, gbjbaanb said:

The Sergeant requires a rework

What the f*** you talking about fatman?! Sargent is the most solo friendly boss we have.

Now listen to me skinny, you get that a stupid idea out of your head or I'll strap you to a chair and force you to watch She's All That.

Yeah I went there.

[Aldain]

1 minute ago, Kaotyke said:

Sargent is the most solo friendly boss we have.

...I mean insofar as he's a boss...glorified mook might be a better description.

He could randomly show up in any Corpus mission and would get shanked without even being noticed.

[-CdG-Zilchy]

3 hours ago, Aldain said:

He could randomly show up in any Corpus mission and would get shanked without even being noticed.

God that made me laugh so hard cos it's true, the janitor on the corpus tileset probably outranks him, probably also the roombas. His purpose in game right now is for when the Nightwave challenge of completing 3 assassination missions shows up 😆

[Tesseract7777]

3 hours ago, Aldain said:

...I mean insofar as he's a boss...glorified mook might be a better description.

He could randomly show up in any Corpus mission and would get shanked without even being noticed.

I think at this point most of the new corpus infantry are actually tougher enemies lmao. 

[FSK41]

vor 21 Stunden schrieb TARINunit9:

Second person to parrot this. Trials died because they were a mess of spaghetti code that the devs were pulling their hair out to debug, all for the sake of a game mode that had nothing in common with anything else in the game. "Forced co-op" was such a distant third that its light takes seven minutes to reach the Earth

i am pretty sure they died coz DE needed arcanes as a reward to put them into Eidolon their new shiny project

[FSK41]

vor 16 Stunden schrieb XAN3MK:

Not to be blunt, but this whole discussion is nonsensical. You can not design content that caters to both solo and group play without compromising the design one way or the other, and before somebody jumps in with the scaling argument, there's a difference between an encounter scaling to accommodate multiple players and encounter designed to be executed by multiple players. There's a reason why any large scale content in an online game (6+ players), even when there are multiple selections of difficulties still requires a group. You need that requirement of every individual being responsible for different task (or a task requiring interaction of multiple individuals) to have a meaningful co-op experience.

I mostly play solo nowadays and that's not because I mind group play, but because I don't need a group to do anything in this game outside of multiple tridolons/night. You can cruise solo through Steel Path with the right tools and setup, so why wouldn't you solo? And no, this is not an endorsement, but rather a cautionary remark of the state in which content in Warframe currently is.

Will I play this new iteration of Trials if its introduced into the game? A tentative maybe. Do I mind that there is a content that might potentially* be outside my grasp, but it would be a challenging, engaging and rewarding for those who will be willing to get organized and partake in it? Absolutely not, more power to them and I'd be glad that a 1% of the game will actually cater to the people persevering and maintaining communities in this game that absolutely does not reward them for it.

 

* Potentially, because group content is never exclusive, some individuals just choose that they don't wanna put the time and effort to participate in them. There's a difference there.

[Zimzala]

On 2021-02-26 at 12:41 PM, VisionAndVoice said:

Why are you so scared of interacting with your fellow players?

Why are you so intolerant of people that have anxiety, introverts, and mature adults that don't want to hang play with a bunch of Randoms?

[KuraiWolf2014]

The fact that nobody here can agree on anything just goes to show how terrible forced multiplayer is. Nonstop bickering and insults being thrown around between self-entitled brats on either side. DE can make what DE wants. Only, what they want is more money. And new players are the only ones bringing that in. So look at what new players prefer to get your answer as to what it will be: co-op or solo.

[AuroraSonicBoom]

Pretty much. If it cannot be soloed, as in it prevents you mechanically from doing it, which the old trials did, I'm not going to play it. I don't mind forced group content for players who want it, but not at the expense of exclusive stat changing rewards or lore that you can only experience in that content. Last time DE said anything about solo players, they said 20% of the playerbase on pc primarily plays solo.

[-CdG-Zilchy]

3 minutes ago, AuroraSonicBoom said:

Pretty much. If it cannot be soloed, as in it prevents you mechanically from doing it, which the old trials did, I'm not going to play it. I don't mind forced group content for players who want it, but not at the expense of exclusive stat changing rewards or lore that you can only experience in that content. Last time DE said anything about solo players, they said 20% of the playerbase on pc primarily plays solo.

Then that would mean the majority of players(80%) don't play solo and they usually appeal to the majority.

[GPrime96]

So another Profit Taker?