Jump to content

What DE doesn't seem to get about the "Guns vs Melee" Balance Issue


Recommended Posts

right now if you want max dmg on melee, you are locked in melee because of Scaling or as said "evolutive" mods, and the suggested solution to this is by giving similar mechanic to everything, so basically from primary secondary melee heavy weapon (and also maybe exalted weapons) you can only use one at a time, while it is a better solution than what we have right now it would be killing the diversity out right, idk about you lot but that sounds like a horrible idea if you ask me!

also just a headsup that melee is not always better than guns if they have equal dmg outputs, it is ONLY better in places that enemies are close together AKA closed spaces (which is what most of game is right now), try doing a cetus bounty with only melee (and no dps abilities) and you will quickly realise what actually make melee so strong, Clumped up enemies in small rooms, and having the ability to move at insane speeds duo to parkour system.

in my opinion one of the things that Keeps melee up and strong as the best thing ever is the objective, killing is everything and most the times over small distances and closed spaces.

Link to post
Share on other sites
11 minutes ago, Xikto said:

right now if you want max dmg on melee, you are locked in melee because of Scaling or as said "evolutive" mods, and the suggested solution to this is by giving similar mechanic to everything, so basically from primary secondary melee heavy weapon (and also maybe exalted weapons) you can only use one at a time, while it is a better solution than what we have right now it would be killing the diversity out right, idk about you lot but that sounds like a horrible idea if you ask me!

also just a headsup that melee is not always better than guns if they have equal dmg outputs, it is ONLY better in places that enemies are close together AKA closed spaces (which is what most of game is right now), try doing a cetus bounty with only melee (and no dps abilities) and you will quickly realise what actually make melee so strong, Clumped up enemies in small rooms, and having the ability to move at insane speeds duo to parkour system.

in my opinion one of the things that Keeps melee up and strong as the best thing ever is the objective, killing is everything and most the times over small distances and closed spaces.

Melee performance is also dependent on mission types, for stationary, or camping play, guns are generally better, or even ability spam, within normal level ranges.

Even if guns had a combo system, there's already alternate ways to mod melee if you're using melee as a secondary. If you aren't utilizing melee as a primary, you can just mod it for heavy attacks. For melee play, heavy attacks are generally sub optimal but are a functional alternative for gun usage.

The alternate would also have to be true then, and there are burst oriented ranged weapons. Some just need better damage to fill their role as a ranged burst shot, as some of them have rather low damage compared to alternatives.

Building up combo would likely take no time anyways, and is really only an issue for really short missions.

Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, DraekoSilver said:
AoE is king, and survivability depends on using abilities non stop, to either nuke, perma cc or tank, because if you don't you will get overwhelmed and killed.

Dunno, never had that problem and i barely use any skills as excalibur. Though it is quite easy to just press a button and become almost unkillable with some tank frame, there is also an option to move around so you don't get hit at all.

1 hour ago, DraekoSilver said:
Melee will ALWAYS affect more enemies than (non AOE) guns, which means as long you are using a gun and actually aiming you are losing time, and there are more enemies spawning than being killed, meaning you are getting closer to be overwhelmed and die.
Spoiler

Good old aklato is enough to wreck a group of low-to-mid level enemies in seconds. Depends on how you build your guns. Though i agree, it's easier to press E than aim and shoot.

Fully agree with evolution mods section.

I did mention enemy AI in one of the forum topics recently: sometimes you wonder if there is any difference if enemies had no AI. They have become less dangerous, or rather we've become much tankier, faster and deadly. Most enemies don't try to evade our attacks. There is nobody who can be a challenge for us. Even the stalker, who was truly feared by some back in the day, right now is nothing different than any other grineer that you kill in a second and forget. And those enemies who are hard to kill (Wolf of Saturn Six for example), are different only because they can take a bit more damage before they die. An AI expansion would be nice, make stalker use parkour so he's harder to hit, maybe also make usual soldiers duck/roll/slide or anything to evade the attacks themselves. 

Imo the best way to make guns more useful, is to make using melee more risky. Or anything else that would make people consider keeping distance. The easiest way would be to simply increase enemies damage scaling rate. 

Edited by Dante
Link to post
Share on other sites

oh yeah condition over load is a thing to! yeah making condition overload innate in all weapons could be interesting as well as making combo counters universal .

from what i understand there are mods that let you pick things up by shooting them so that could also be made innate 

Edited by (NSW)Leafar
Link to post
Share on other sites

DraekoSilver said "you will ALWAYS want to complete missions as fast as possible."

Eh, personally, when I'm grinding I'll take a moderate loss of efficiency if it switches the gameplay from "boring" to "fun". And most of the hours I've racked up in Warframe, I've not been grinding, but playing for fun, where efficiency is a non-issue, because I don't care about the drops...

But when any player wants to grind like they rrreallly mean it... there will always be a meta. And that's not in itself a problem.

Unseat one meta, and variety does not blossom -- instead, the consensus settles on an alternative meta. Thus will that cycle ever continue.

DraekoSilver said "this is the actual reason Melee dominate the meta, not because they have INHERETLY better stats, but because they have Evolutive Mods"

Only because the meta is driven by players tuning their builds on the highest-level heavies their Simulacrum can muster. Also by endurance runners, for whom those Combo-Counter-dependent buff-stacking Mods are probably an essential part of their toolkit.

Anyone who relies on the meta to guide their entire playstyle will likely wind up slotting Blood Rush and then stick to meleeeeeeeeeee 'cos of the perceived need to keep their Combo Counter up. Those folks won't even have noticed the guns vs melee imbalance because they virtually never shoot anything which can be hit with melee. If they did want to shoot stuff? They'd have dropped the "evolutive" Mods.

'Cos in a Kuva Flood or Sortie 3 -- the highest levels any player was genuinely incentivised to face, at least until Teshin started hawking Umbra Forma -- the Acolyte Mods now hardly make a blessed bit of difference. Any high-tier melee weapon will go through those enemies like butter, without those "evolutive" Mods. Hek, I solo'd my way through Steel Path and I was up to smth like Pluto before I started thinking about switching from my default configs to a Blood Rush build.

Before the melee rework, I had no Combo Counter because I didn't switch to melee-only mode, because I liek shooting things. So I didn't use Combo-Counter-dependent mods. After the melee rework I didn't change any of my builds at all. My melee weapons were killing way faster than they had previously.

Melee weapons got big stat buffs when melee got reworked, and guns didn't. That's the root of it.

Before the rework, just using Quick Attacks, with melee and firearms of a similar tier, TtK was similar and which I used was situational.

Nowadays, without Acolyte Mods and Condition Overload and all that fancy stuff, just standard Mods on everything, firearms badly underperform compared to melee weapons of a similar tier.

The notion floated in the devstream, that this will be fixed with just some new gun Mods is IMHO highly unlikely.

Just go compare a Mk-1 Braton to a Skana, unmodded. What new player will bother investing in firearms when they are so far behind melee in even single-target damage? It'll be a couple of meta guns for the boss fights which more or less need them, and melee for everything else. Quite possibly the same Skana they started with, it'll do for the whole Star Chart, and Sorties if they put a potato it it. I wish I was joking.

Either melees' base stats need bringing back down to where they were, or guns' base stats need bringing up in line with melee.

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

On devsteam 152, they said "the easy solution here is to just nerf melee". Not really an easy solution, if its not a solution to begin with. Nerfing melee will just lose them players, waste time, and make both guns AND melee underpowered.

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, OmegaVoid said:

Melee weapons got big stat buffs when melee got reworked, and guns didn't. That's the root of it.

Melee attacks stopped being affected by the combo counter directly, so they actually lost damage on avarage (some, like heavy blades, about 50% - more if you count the nerfs to stances).

Melee also lost immunity to knockdowns a while back. Also lost the ability to bypass obstacles.

Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, Traumtulpe said:

Melee attacks stopped being affected by the combo counter directly, so they actually lost damage on avarage

Not for players who like to shoot things. Previously melee had no Combo Counter unless you switched to melee-only mode.

For the players who back then were quite happy to forsake their guns to maximize melee DPS, I find it hard to imagine guns vs melee balance is a significant concern now.

And at the levels where Combo-Counter-dependent builds are truly impactful now, enemy eHP has already been nerfed by going over to the s-curve, so a direct before-and-after DPS comparison doesn't seem meaningful. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
22 hours ago, Joezone619 said:

Not really an easy solution, if its not a solution to begin with

Its the only solution.

Make guns more powerful, then DE will start to think "the bosses are one-shotted, so we must make them more powerful to withstand the new damage" and then we end up with the situation we're in today. Remember the Sergeant. He was quite a hard target once.

Melee must be nerfed, and enemies nerfed also to make the balance work. The alternative is just a game that becomes increasinly impossible for anything other than the OP meta builds.

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
On 2021-03-01 at 4:48 PM, gbjbaanb said:

Its the only solution.

I couldn't agree more.  Melee got over-buffed back in the rework with the stance changes and general damage increase combined with the normalization nerf to enemy EHP.  They could essentially remove the general damage buffs and the melee damage output will fall in place (while retaining some minor buffs on the lower performing melee's).

Generally speaking I feel like enemy EHP is at a good point right now and that weapon balancing should be done around it as is.  Damage types is a different discussion though.

Edited by (XBOX)Calliber
Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
×
×
  • Create New...