keikogi Posted February 27, 2021 Share Posted February 27, 2021 The Problem I´ve been here when melee weapons were the “bullet jump” stick , when they had no purpose and when they took over the game. The thing is warframe can't really balance the equation off melee vs ranged dps because the time to gap close is a fixed amount and the time to kill scales with level , so regardless off the stance DE takes it will be broken by level scaling. I’m not here to address melee weapons dealing too much damage or ranged weapons doing too little damage , what I intend is rework combat and modding to offer alternatives for each slot be useful in any given loadout . Expaning the the DPS conundrum Spoiler Usually, games balance the equation of melee vs tanged by making the melee weapons have a high enough dps to justify the risk and time of gap closing. However, this method does not work in warframe due to the combination off high base mobility and level here. Here the basic gist of the unbalance able nature of this problem. Time you take to gap close G ( let's say G =1 seconds for the sake of simpler tough experiments) Ranged dps = X ( again just placeholders to show fundamentals ) Melee dps = 1.5 X If the enemy at LVL 50 has 3 X as hp. Both ranged weapon and melee weapons will be a equally viable choice taking 3 s to kill the enemy. If the enemy goes up to LVL 120 and has 30 x hp melee weapons will take 21 seconds to kill an enemy and ranged weapon will take 30 seconds, with makes the melee weapon roughly 50% more effective. You see for melee weapon to be viable they have to do more damage than ranged weapons due to time to gap close , if they to more damage they will be thr only viable weapon as soon the level scaling shows it ugly head. It's impossible to make both viable at the same time unless one feeds the other , because whatever braking point off equivalent you create will be broken by LVL scaling. If you want to bring up the thousands of different damage multiplier here for you Spoiler A -> damage multiplier that affects both ranged and melee weapons equally. B -> damage multiplier that only affects melee weapons. C- > damage multiplier that only affects Ranged weapons. If you include the multiplier A, the only thing it will accomplish is reduce the equilibrium level If you include the multiplier B, you will reduce the equilibrium level and raise the size of the gap at the higher end. If you include the multiplier C, there are two possible results either ranged weapons will be superior all the time or you just raise the minimum lvl necessary for melee weapons outclass ranged ones. If you are off the opinion that ranged weapons should have dps because off their (mostly ) single target nature and melee innate aoe and limitless use , well it does not matter the equation will just break for the other side making it so the higher the level the more useless melee weapons become (as it was in a distant past ). The thing is a of games balance the melee equation because these games create something called expected TTK (time to kill ) (the devs know the enemies you will be facing and their EHP but since warframe has no such thing ( well the game does not have a proper player level measure nor an official endgame ) balancing melee and ranged use through DPS is a fool errand because the level scaling will break the equation for one side or the other. Them how to fix it? Either make ranged weapons or melee weapons into a “skill”? However this solution comes into a big problem , which one will be the skill. Some people like their guns , others like their beating sticks. However if the player can choose through modding which one will be the skill this solution is viable. So it will be adopted into this post. Make it so there is inherent benefit to weapon switching? To a minor extent it already happens with the kuvar nukor being used as a primer for condition overload, however there are no mods or melee weapons that support a ranged play style. On top of that slow weapon switch speed combined host based weapon switch makes those strategies unreliable. So in this post I will add even more mods to support weapon switching , remove weapon switch speed. Mechanical Problems ? Combo only builds off melee strikes , incentivizing a linear play style. Extending the ability to build up and use combo to guns would open more design space for guns and give guns and melee mechanical parity. My Own proposal 1. First off Buff ranged weapon across the board ( or nerf melee one across the board , I´m not here to say what is the appropriate ttk for enemies, I´m just trying to address the difference ) 2. Allow ranged weapons to build up combo per hit. 3. Change the payoff from combo build up from charge attacks to the fabled melee 3.0 system off the “devil trigger”. However, reworking its design to allow ranged weapons to benefit from the devil trigger as well, much like in DMC 4. Adding Stances for ranged weapon and exilus for melee 5. Remove weapon switch speed 6. Rework Charge attacks ( Not necessary but might as well ) 7. Rework the current mods into the new system 8. Add a new set off mods to incentivize the player to cycle to their loadout. , 9. New Focus nodes supporting Spirit Mode and Charge attacks Now detailing each step First off Buff ranged weapon across the board Decide what is the appropriate ttk for a late game weapon against a late game enemy and start to work from there. Not going to develop into this because once again , I´m not discussing the time to kill , I'm just trying to lack the purpose of guns. Allow ranged weapons to build up combo Each weapon receives its own combo chance. Each time the weapon hits an enemy there is a chance of building up a combo, generating two 2 times combo. The average unmodded weapons would be 2 combo per second. Examples Spoiler For example, the Braton Fire rate 8,75 Combo Change 23% Average combo generation 2, average combo on headshot 4 Another Example, Modded Braton Fire Rate 14 (speed trigger) Multshot 90% Combo Change 23% Average Combo generation 6,1 combo per second, 12,2 on headshot Another example, bows could a higher combo generation, so they have something to stand out from snipers. For example, all bows would generate double combo on fully charged shot. Average fire rate (including reload) – 0,87 charged shots per second. Combo chance 230% Average combo generation 4, on headshot 8. At last , an example of explosive weapon Penta Fire rate- 1 round per second Combo change 20% Average combo generation hitting 1 enemy per explosion– 0,2 combo per second. Average combo generation hitting 5 enemies per explosion – 1 combo per second. This combo generation method could be personalized by any amount of fire rate or innate multshot a weapon can have. At last there is a generic rule off the lasting effects off any weapon shot does not generate combo ( symulator lasting aoe , ogris napalm grenades and so on ) Change the payoff from combo build up from charge attacks to the fabled melee 3.0 system off the “devil trigger”. However, reworking its design to allow ranged weapons to benefit from the devil trigger as well, much like in DMC How would the devil trigger look ? My idea is it would work much like Nioh living weapon slity changed. Here NIOH Living weapon These beasts would increase the damage of weapons(ranged and melee) and concede further benefits based on the focus school the beast is related to ( mobility, defense or utility ). The duration and power off the beast would scale with the amount of combo used to summon it. During the spirit mod the combo counter is disabled. How to activate the “Devil Trigger “ Hold r or hold f, both work How the duration and power and modding would be handled ? The combo would be repurposed as fuel for the fabled devil trigger mode. In this case it would be called Spirit Resonance. All weapons would receive a new stat called Spiritual Attunement, this stat dictate how good a weapon is while in devil trigger mode. The Spirit Resonance would provide a battery magazine for any gun and a damage bonus based on the weapon Spiritual Attunement for both guns and melee. Further bonus would be unlocked by leveling up the void beast used for Spirit resonance. Visually speaking, first the warframe would summon one off 5 void beasts , then the beast would infuse itself on the gun. There would be 1 void beast per school. Void beasts are chosen on the loadout and are unlocked when they unlock the respective focus school. Here the basics off the function. Combo Counter Tier Number of Hits Spirit Damage Multiplier Combo use per Second on Spirit mode Spirit Mode Duration 0 0 1,0 Cannot be used Cannot be used 1 30 1,25 10/s 3 s 2 60 1,5 10/s 6 s 3 90 1,75 10/s 9 s 4 120 2,00 10/s 12 s 5 160 2,5 12/s 13,33 s 6 190 3,0 14/s 13,57 s 7 220 3,5 16/s 13,75 s Spirit damage scales as fallow ,weapon spirit attunement x Spirit damage multiplier. Spirit damage is added as second stance off damage. For example, Spoiler Skana with a 6 tier combo Skana has 50% spirit attunement 120 damage + 120 x 50% x 3 = 300 damage per swing does 2 stances off damage (1 off 120 and 1 off 180 ). With pressure point equipped 120( 1+1,20) + 120 x 50% x 3 (1+1,20)= 660 Braton with a 6 tier combo Braton with 50% spirit attunement 24 damage + 24 x 50% x 3 = 60 damage per round fires 2 pellets per round ( 1 off 24 damage and 36 off the spirit part ) Braton with serration 24 (1+165%) + 24 (1+165%) x 50% x 3 = 159 damage per round. How would they be empowered? Trough a new side tree on the focus school and a new unique mods ( only 3 mod slots like the parazon ) 4. Stances for Ranged weapons and Exilus for melee These will be added for the sake of modding equality. As it is right now melee weapons need way less forma than their ranged counterparts. So stances will be added to spyce guns a bit up and alleviate the forma consumption. Stances The stances would influence the way the second bullet spawned by the Spirit mode. A few examples. Effects only apply while in spirit mode. Explosive shells - turns the spirit damage into aoe damage ( radius 1,5 meters ) Bouncing shells - the spirit portion off the damage bounces up to 3 times Seeker rounds ( projectile weapons only ) - rounds seek out enemies, reduces the spirit damage. Void twin ( one handed secondaries only ) - creates a void copy off the weapon. The copy only deals spirit damage. Void channeling ( bow only ) - gives aoe spirit damage, doubles the damage and aoe on full charge. Shuriken barrage ( non explosive throw weapons ) - gives 400% innate multshot (applies before multishot mods ) for the spirit portion of the throws weapon.Reduces accuracy Exilus for Melee Adding the exilus slot for melee weapons as well. A few new mods will be added. Here a few examples Path of the ox - cc resistance during melee weapons swings ( same protection heavy weapons offer naturally) Path of the tiger - teleports up to 0,35 meter to catch an enemy ( teleports up to 0,35 meters if your distance to closest enemy ( from the cross hair) is between weapon reach and weapon reach 0,35. Path of the rabbit - increases movement speed by 15 % while the melee weapon is in hand. Path of the monkey - reduces the recovery time from knock down and staggers. 5. Remove weapon switch speed Weapon switch is now local ( instead of host based ) and instantaneous to support utility and set up weapons. Holster speed mods reworked into +Combo Chance after switch. Further details in the mod rework section 6.Rework Charge attacks Reduces wind up time. If the player has 60 or more combo points. Cost 60 combo gains a 3 damage multiplier , bonus range and procs an effect based on current focus school. 7. Reworked Mods Combo mods - reworked to fit the new combo system. Somewhere moved and reworked to be compatible with the spirit slot. Body Count(spirit mod) - +7 seconds combo duration Drifting Contact(spirit mod) - +5 seconds of combo duration Gladiator rush(spirit mod) - +3 seconds of combo duration Corrupted Charge(spirit mod)- every 10 seconds gain 60 combo, - 50% combo chance Enduring strike(spirit mod) - 200% combo chance on lifted enemies Focus energy(spirit mod) - 20% spirit mode duration , %60 electric damage while on spirit mode Reflex Coil(spirit mod)- 40% spirit mode duration True punishment ( spirit mode)- (-50%) combo duration, 100% combo chance Quickening(melee) - 40% attack speed + 20% combo chance Covert lethality (dagger mod)- 100% finisher damage , +30 combo on finisher strike Relentless Combination ( melee)- 100% combo chance when slash status damage Vigorous Swap - stores 35% off damage the equipped weapon did on the last 3 seconds, adds that damage to the first shot after a weapon switch. Soft hands - 200% combo chance for 3 seconds after switching into this weapon. Reflex Draw - 200% combo chance for 3 seconds after switching into this weapon. Speed Holster - 120% combo chance for 3 seconds after switching weapons Streamlined for - 60% combo chance for 3 seconds after weapon switch, +15% slide, -15% friction 8. New Mods Oro Siphon - (Scythe) - Attacks made against enemies with 20% or less health will empower your primary weapon with lifesteal and increased damage for 10 seconds. Grappler ( sword and whip ) replaces the first hit off any stance with a grappling hook. Dashes towards a point of impact. Executors blade (heavy blade) - reduces weapons damage by 75% , executes enemies on hit if they are below 40% hp. Disarming whip ( whip only ) - disarms enemy on hit. Riot shield ( sword and shields ) - while using a secondary , gain damage reduction on attack within the melee weapon block angle. Rapaces quick melee with a short shield bash Sharpening Sheet ( nikana) - gains % damage while holstered , loses % damage on hit ( so it has remarkable burst but bad dps ). Wind edge - massive range increase, massively reduced damage. Kinect Gloves ( sparing ) - stores the knecht energy from the recoil off your guns ( reduces recoil ) , tham releases it on all mighty punch. Reaches Maximum stacks after firing 500 rounds. Duelist Show ( rapier ) - on the first strike off a combo chain , strike as many times as there are status on the enemies hit ( all extra attacks are simultaneous ) Thief Blade ( melee) - on hit , steal ammo from the enemy magazine and places on yours. Rush down ( melee) - (-50%) attack speed, on hit gains 150% attack speed and 50% combo count for 5 s ( 10 s cooldown ) Polarization ( secondaries ) - + magnetic damage ,+ bullet jump towards enemies with magnetic proc ( scales with number off procs ) Perfect flow ( staff ) - after 25 melee hits , gain power strength on the next cast. Hunter Mark(bow)- on hit gains deal increased damage towards source; on headshot- gains life steal against the marked enemy as well. Flak point blank ( shotgun )- 100% damage , against airborne targets 150% Rodeo ( beam primary ) - +60% status chance , pull the player towards the target. Blade Tempo ( automatic primary ) - after landing shots 15 , increase the damage and range off the next 3 melee strikes Overheat ( primary with spool up time ) - 0-90% heat damge based on weapon spool. On maxium spool the fire portion of the damage becames AOE damage. 9. New Focus nodes supporting Spirit Mode and Charge attacks Spoiler Under Construction Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rawbeard Posted February 27, 2021 Share Posted February 27, 2021 that is a lot of work. how many people would that actually benefit? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)Frost_Nephilim Posted February 27, 2021 Share Posted February 27, 2021 I need this, right, Now! Mods add reason to switch weapons, combo count now makes it feel a little more skill based, devil trigger helping weapons to scale a bit, and heavy attacks changes makes it feel less like you are trading all of your dps on 1 enemy for the next minute All sounds great! I can see myself using every thing here 3 hours ago, Rawbeard said: that is a lot of work. how many people would that actually benefit? Everyone asking for guns to be brought up to melee for one. It almost looks like the whole warframe player base is asking for that right now As for the devil trigger, it could be a way to add difficulty amd complexity to the game. 2 things that players have asked for, for a long time. I say that because players nowadays like to finish missions faster, with the devil trigger you now get rewarded more for the skill you have with aiming. The harder you try to quickly get headshots, the faster your devil trigger would fill, the faster you'd be getting kills Now all thats needed is more enemies to use it on and i think that should be our melee enemies like the Grineer Butcher. Some butchers should be weak but others should be strong and fast. Powerful enough for players to want to use their devil trigger on these enemies immediately Cause right now, melee enemies in warframe are a joke. Theyre too slow and weak to do anything Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teoarrk Posted February 27, 2021 Share Posted February 27, 2021 Kei you really worked your butt off here and great job. As one final thing to add, would you consider an extension of the Overheat mod from Sentinel Weapons to LMGs? https://warframe.fandom.com/wiki/Fired_Up Good luck with the thread and I'll go back to writing about Tharsis. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rawbeard Posted February 27, 2021 Share Posted February 27, 2021 4 hours ago, (PSN)Frost_Nephilim said: Everyone asking for guns to be brought up to melee for one. so... basically nobody compared to the entire playerbase? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)Frost_Nephilim Posted February 27, 2021 Share Posted February 27, 2021 40 minutes ago, Rawbeard said: so... basically nobody compared to the entire playerbase? I dont know what you just said? I think youre trying to just say that the playerbase isnt asking for a buff to guns and if so, that is completly false. DE literally just had a dev stream mentioning players that are talking about it. Even youtubers are talking about it, and have their videos filled with comments agreeing to the matter. People in these forums are even talking about it Its a popular issue 8 hours ago, keikogi said: The duration and power off the beast would scale with the amount of combo This is something i wanted to talk about, thing about combo count is that its used for mods like blood rush, so a complete loss of the combo counter would mean trading off a lot of Dps To fix this, what if blood rush worked differently, like it just requiring a certain number of hits under a certain amount of time to give a massive crit chance buff for a duration That way choosing to activate devil trigger wont feel like you lost all of your damage from blood rush What do you think? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keikogi Posted February 27, 2021 Author Share Posted February 27, 2021 43 minutes ago, (PSN)Frost_Nephilim said: This is something i wanted to talk about, thing about combo count is that its used for mods like blood rush, so a complete loss of the combo counter would mean trading off a lot of Dps To fix this, what if blood rush worked differently, like it just requiring a certain number of hits under a certain amount of time to give a massive crit chance buff for a duration That way choosing to activate devil trigger wont feel like you lost all of your damage from blood rush What do you think? I dont want to make this bigger than it need to be, I´m not here to discuss if bloodrush ( at it´s best ) is better than literally every other crit mod combined , same goes for weaping wounds ( they got a quite hit because maximum combo tier was reduced to 7 from 12 ) but I´m not here do discuss their desing nor my opnions on them. I'm just trying to rework combo , add weapon swithing as core aspect off gameplay and finaly deliver on the devil trigger ( withc a did not finish because the passive focus bonus are yet to come , and the extra effects for charge attacks were not finished either ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teridax68 Posted February 27, 2021 Share Posted February 27, 2021 I may not fully agree with all of the suggestions here (I certainly wouldn't want a class of weapons to be turned into a simple skill, nor do I really care for giving all ranged weapons comboes and stances), but I very much agree with much of the criticism and some of the core directions proposed in the OP: I too believe one of the current reasons why melee is favored over gunplay is because of the combo meter, which innately encourages commitment to melee when we ought to be able to switch freely between melee and guns at no loss in power. The additional problem is that the combo counter is rarely used for its intended purpose: the two main heavy attack builds in the game rely on either using Corrupt Charge to spam heavy attacks without building up the combo counter, or Blood Rush to increase crit chance and never actually heavy attack. Clearly, there is a problem with how the system is impacting play. With this in mind, my three main suggestions, aside from rebalancing melee and ranged weapons to close some of the gap, would be the following: Remove the combo counter mechanic entirely. This should probably even apply to sniper rifles, whose base stats should be increased in compensation. Rework some (but not all) heavy attacks so that they become alt-fires for melee, rather than always the bigger and slower attack. Particular mention goes to gunblades, who should be able to benefit from a clearer separation between melee and ranged attacks (regular attacks could be exclusively melee and heavy attacks exclusively ranged for one stance, and the reverse for the other). Remove and rework mods tied to heavy attacks and the combo counter, eliminating gameplay that disincentivizes weapon switching. After that, there's also the mechanic DE mentioned in their latest dev stream about having guns and melee buff one another to encourage switching and multi-weapon combos. I would very much like to have the OP's suggestion of removing weapon swap times, though that in itself may not be necessary to make gunplay more competitive with melee. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keikogi Posted February 27, 2021 Author Share Posted February 27, 2021 45 minutes ago, Teridax68 said: The additional problem is that the combo counter is rarely used for its intended purpose: the two main heavy attack builds in the game rely on either using Corrupt Charge to spam heavy attacks without building up the combo counter, or Blood Rush to increase crit chance and never actually heavy attack. Clearly, there is a problem with how the system is impacting play. I´ve been saying this ever since the system came out. if people avoid engaging with the core purpose off a gameplay system , well the system is broken 45 minutes ago, Teridax68 said: I too believe one of the current reasons why melee is favored over gunplay is because of the combo meter, which innately encourages commitment to melee when we ought to be able to switch freely between melee and guns at no loss in power I think this ever since the sword alone update came, I even went as far as to say the choice of name made the entire update misdirect it´s efforts because well , sword alone. 45 minutes ago, Teridax68 said: (I certainly wouldn't want a class of weapons to be turned into a simple skill, n As far as warframe is concerned there is only 1 diference that matters on a gun it has aoe or not. Effective engagment range is somewhat meaninless because off warframe mobility is so hight that the effective ranges off the gun are mostly irrelevant So the choice between you primay or secondary will come down to witch one has the highest dps. Granted in a no weapon switch time , status set up them dps build become competitive with hybrid guns but that play sytle is just enchanted by the "skill " series off mods. Also making the "skill" style slot an option trough moding makes it so you don´t have to that. Don´t want to use melee that much , equip a lecta , max out on range with wind edge, slap a disarming whip for cc , a thief blade for skipping reloads and thrown in a few status mods for good measure. Voala you have a melee weapon that brings a lot to table even on ranged weapon buid. Want to go with the current moto off set enemies with status nukor and kill with melee , throw in a bow with hunter mark for good measure. the system just makes sure that even if you are playing a melee frame with buffs only for melee weapons , your ranged weapons will still amount to something and vise versa. That´s why the entire utility stick was loaded into mods , no inherent passives off a weapon class 45 minutes ago, Teridax68 said: With this in mind, my three main suggestions, aside from rebalancing melee and ranged weapons to close some of the gap, would be the following: Remove the combo counter mechanic entirely. This should probably even apply to sniper rifles, whose base stats should be increased in compensation. Rework some (but not all) heavy attacks so that they become alt-fires for melee, rather than always the bigger and slower attack. Particular mention goes to gunblades, who should be able to benefit from a clearer separation between melee and ranged attacks (regular attacks could be exclusively melee and heavy attacks exclusively ranged for one stance, and the reverse for the other). Remove and rework mods tied to heavy attacks and the combo counter, eliminating gameplay that disincentivizes weapon switching. There are only two routes to go with , either everyone combos or noone does. Not really a fan of charge attacks either ( even tried to tie them to focus so they have an excuse to provide something diferent than damage so it can standa out from regular melee but I´m strugulling to find 5 diferent effects that work and don´t feel samy ) 45 minutes ago, Teridax68 said: After that, there's also the mechanic DE mentioned in their latest dev stream about having guns and melee buff one another to encourage switching and multi-weapon combos. I would very much like to have the OP's suggestion of removing weapon swap times, though that in itself may not be necessary to make gunplay more competitive with melee. Weapons swith times have nothing to do with the overall viability off guns but making it stantanious would incentivize builds with a higher skill cap Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teridax68 Posted February 27, 2021 Share Posted February 27, 2021 1 minute ago, keikogi said: I´ve been saying this ever since the system came out. if people avoid engaging with the core purpose off a gameplay system , well the system is broken Agreed 100%. It can be fine to rework the system around the way people actually engage with it, so long as the different manner of engaging with the system is healthy, but while I think heavy attack spam builds are more or less okay (because one can at least switch weapons without much trouble), I don't think that's the case for Blood Rush builds, which are one button builds by nature. 1 minute ago, keikogi said: As far as warframe is concerned there is only 1 diference that matters on a gun it has aoe or not. Effective engagment range is somewhat meaninless because off warframe mobility is so hight that the effective ranges off the gun are mostly irrelevant So the choice between you primay or secondary will come down to witch one has the highest dps. I can agree with some of this, in that I think melee and guns don't really have the distinct roles they often do in other games. However, to me this suggests that we should probably just eliminate the gun-melee separation, and just let players choose from their arsenal freely instead of keeping to a primary-secondary-melee system that has never really worked out. Really, choosing melee weapons and guns should be a matter of preference, and if we can make different classes of guns viable alongside one another, the same reasoning should apply if melee weapons were just another set of weapon classes among others, or vice versa. 1 minute ago, keikogi said: There are only two routes to go with , either everyone combos or noone does. Also agreed. Personally I'm inclined towards the latter, because slowly ramping up in power I think makes no real sense in most of our gameplay in Warframe, where we're supposed to alternate rapidly between different engagements and situations. The only situations where combos truly come online tend to be when players camp the same area for a very long time and spam attacks. Even if the combo counter were made universal, that would promote that same gameplay. 1 minute ago, keikogi said: Not really a fan of charge attacks either ( even tried to tie them to focus so they have an excuse to provide something diferent than damage so it can standa out from regular melee but I´m strugulling to find 5 diferent effects that work and don´t feel samy ) I agree, I'm personally not really a fan of the "slower but stronger" choice, as I feel it's often redundant unless paired with the system catering specifically to it (and a mod build behind it). Meanwhile, guns have a much more interesting mechanic in the form of alt-fires, which allow some guns to do radically different things from their base attacks. In some cases, they do have a slower but stronger attack, but even then the attack tends to be far more different to its base version than regular versus heavy melee attacks. I don't think melee needs to be stuck that way either, as while some weapons can have their fast vs. strong separation, plenty more could do more distinct things with their different moves, as glaives do already by using heavy melee to get thrown. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)Frost_Nephilim Posted February 27, 2021 Share Posted February 27, 2021 1 hour ago, Teridax68 said: Remove the combo counter mechanic entirely. This should probably even apply to sniper rifles, whose base stats should be increased in compensation. So no increased damage on consecutive headshots? I mean i agree combo count needs some work but i dont think a complete removal should be done. It makes players feel good being rewarded for doing something right consecutively. Rewarding players for their work with fun things is what makes games more addicting (aka better). Whether it be a score counter like whats seen in call of duty scorestreaks, a combat rating like whats seen in Devil May Cry, it all helps the game out a bit in the fun department Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teridax68 Posted February 27, 2021 Share Posted February 27, 2021 Just now, (PSN)Frost_Nephilim said: So no increased damage on consecutive headshots? I mean i agree combo count needs some work but i dont think a complete removal should be done. It makes players feel good being rewarded for doing something consecutively. Rewarding players for their work with fun things is what makes games more addicting (aka better) I agree fully with you on the principle that players should feel rewarded for good play. However, I think the problem with the combo counter on sniper rifles is that, in practice, I think it actually does the reverse: it's not that you're doing more damage on consecutive headshots, it's that your already slow-firing, single-target weapon with the restrictive zoom won't even be able to deal its full damage until you shoot enemies several times. It's a restrictive and kind of punishing mechanic on a weapon class that does not need any more of that. I think the more rewarding implementation in practice should be to supercharge headshots from the get-go, and give sniper rifles a massive native damage multiplier on headshots, plus arguably better base stats too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keikogi Posted March 2, 2021 Author Share Posted March 2, 2021 On 2021-02-27 at 8:02 PM, Teridax68 said: Agreed 100%. It can be fine to rework the system around the way people actually engage with it, so long as the different manner of engaging with the system is healthy, but while I think heavy attack spam builds are more or less okay (because one can at least switch weapons without much trouble), I don't think that's the case for Blood Rush builds, which are one button builds by nature. I haver a beEf agaisnt charge attacks for historical reasons and lack of diversity in melee play style. The very existence of a."charge attack " build makes it charge attacks and normal attacks cannot be seamless integrated into a play style. Since stacking multiplier is the way to do damage , if you invest mod slots on charge attacks odds are your normal attacks will suck. I just think this is fruit of DE having more concerns over having enough stats to create mods than having a good gameplay base so stuff like charge attack wind up speed is a stat. Personally I liked the first showing off melee 2.999 when charge attacks hard the kind of aoe to work as a pay off. On 2021-02-27 at 8:02 PM, Teridax68 said: agree, I'm personally not really a fan of the "slower but stronger" choice, as I feel it's often redundant unless paired with the system catering specifically to it (and a mod build behind it). Meanwhile, guns have a much more interesting mechanic in the form of alt-fires, which allow some guns to do radically different things from their base attacks. In some cases, they do have a slower but stronger attack, but even then the attack tends to be far more different to its base version than regular versus heavy melee attacks. I don't think melee needs to be stuck that way either, as while some weapons can have their fast vs. strong separation, plenty more could do more distinct things with their different moves, as glaives Unless de reworked melee so it feels like it has a stronger connection to the void than the other weapons types , there only so much be you can justify for a piece off metal to do. On 2021-02-27 at 8:19 PM, Teridax68 said: I agree fully with you on the principle that players should feel rewarded for good play. However, I think the problem with the combo counter on sniper rifles is that, in practice, I think it actually does the reverse: it's not that you're doing more damage on consecutive headshots, it's that your already slow-firing, single-target weapon with the restrictive zoom won't even be able to deal its full damage until you shoot enemies several times. It's a restrictive and kind of punishing mechanic on a weapon class that does not need any more of that. I think the more rewarding implementation in practice should be to supercharge headshots from the get-go, and give sniper rifles a massive native damage multiplier on headshots, plus arguably better base stats too. I feel like the problem with snipers is to fold they have no targets , and there is one they are not the bes tool for the job. The job off a sniper is to take down a priority target at long range, there is no long range in warframe ( effectively) and high priority targets are usually armored therefore it'sstatus guns would cut them down faster them the sniper can. Furthermore snipers expose the players because off restrictions to line off sight and just being bad at taking down hordes due to their very nature ( the weapons switch speed problem just compounds here.). So the only niche they can occupy is killing a priority target that's immune to status. So no surprise you only see snipers commonly in eidolon. The problem with snipers is not on the gun it's on the game damage system and enemy design. As far as weapons slots go I think just having 1 ranged weapons slot , 1 melee weapons slot and 1 flexible slot ( f swaps ronthe weapon on the flexible slot , in an out off it ) would be the best way to implement "weapon freedom ". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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