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Make the game CO-OP again...


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The current state of Warframe has just become “you are in a squad but do ur own thing independent of each other” There is no interaction, no cooperation, every single piece of content in WF have been catered to please solo players.

BUT what about the players who started playing Warframe because it is supposed to be a “COOP looter shooter” game. I dont see that COOP aspect anymore.

ı think this is an issue that needs to be looked at

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the game isnt coop anymore because of the players. people who obsess over their damage dealt %, their mission completion time,etc. we choose to play in the "most efficient" way because we want our rewards now now now and want to do the least amount of effort to get it. cooperation is effort.

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Most probably the real coop part of this game are the trials. Not many people play them hence they died. 

The game still survives till this day is because of what it is. 

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1 hour ago, Miser_able said:

the game isnt coop anymore because of the players. people who obsess over their damage dealt %, their mission completion time,etc. we choose to play in the "most efficient" way because we want our rewards now now now and want to do the least amount of effort to get it. cooperation is effort.

In my opinion it's because of how powerful the players have become. The game felt cooperative the most back when we had 4 revives per warframe, resetting every day. Enemies were also deadly at 30-40 level. Rushing through a crowd of enemies was a risky act. Reviving someone while being shot at was nearly a suicide. 

That's when we were most united. Enemies were tough - teammates were always nearby to assist. You get downed - the squad rushes to you and helps you at any costs, without exceptions, and nobody was left behind. You had to crawl to cover to make it easier for your teammates to revive you. Everyone was covering each other. 

Now the difference in power is so large we can just go afk while being under enemy fire at any mid-to-high level mission. The usual star chart missions feel like shooting ranges, maybe that's why i always rush them. The huge variery of our abilities render enemies completely useless. Even if you get downed, nowadays the solution to that for most people is hold X to die instead. And unless you are doing endurance runs, there is no danger, just strolls from spawn to extraction.

TL;DR: The more powerful we become, the less help is needed to defeat our enemies. And because the range of our power is quite wide, some players just plow through hordes of enemies on their way to extraction while others are left behind as dead weight, to collect loot and possibly to die alone without any support.

Edited by Dante
I like to edit things
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Warframe is still exactly as co-op as it has ever been.  You generally need help until you've gotten your important mods sorted out, then you can basically steam roll through the content.  Always has been that way - if you're not feeling it now, it's simply that you've increased your power to where everybody else has been for over 7 years.

This is not a problem to be fixed.  It's the nature of any game about progress.

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3 hours ago, _Euphoria_ said:

ı think this is an issue that needs to be looked at

3 hours ago, Miser_able said:

the game isnt coop anymore because of the players. 

2 hours ago, Dante said:

The more powerful we become, the less help is needed to defeat our enemies.

3 hours ago, Circle_of_Psi said:

Yes, something that is an Players fault, needs to be looked at.

DE knows this all too well, that is why scott put that much emphasis on "the co op elements are there" when he was talking about RailJack. 

Half of the issue is how old the objectives are.

Capture, Mobile Defense, Survival, Assassination, Extermination, Hijack, Rescue and Sabotage are game modes that at best another team mate is an extra gun and at worst a hinderance to what you would have already done, each player is not looked at like a key asset of the team, more like just a tag on.

But i have hopes for the future, they seem to understand this issue quite well and are hopefully gonna do something about it!

At some point i would like a full objective rework but for now, at least we have Disruption, Interception, Spy, Excavation and Railjack missions as some co op in the game! and it is important to understand how much of a KEY FEATURE proper co op is! it is one of the main things that keeps people playing long term, if you ask people who played for years what they find the most fun, one of the answers that comes up often is playing with friends, and the more co op warframe has the more chances for people to have a lot of fun!

 

In reality this co op factor is completely irrelevant to players power, it only becomes relevant when you make people compete for the same thing in a mission, you know like capture for example, there is only gonna be one person that catches the target and the rest are 100% useless BY DESIGN!

How to fix it?
SIMPLE! design around the issue, give OPTIONAL objectives for people to do, this way they can do the same mission with the same team each having something to do and at the end getting more rewards than they would doing it solo!

even off the top of my head i could do better than those old objective designs! and it doesn't have to take a lot of effort to make either, idk if you noticed but they have made maps seemingly with such things in mind!

2 hours ago, (PSN)Ragology said:

No. I dont want to feel like I cant do a mission because no one brought a healer or defense based warframe. 

to answer that, i will refer to the word OPTIONAL, the design should insentivise people to get others to join them and play as a team (by giving additional rewards) and shouldn't FORCE people to have specific teams!

 

Edited by Xikto
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2 hours ago, Dante said:

In my opinion it's because of how powerful the players have become. The game felt cooperative the most back when we had 4 revives per warframe, resetting every day. Enemies were also deadly at 30-40 level. Rushing through a crowd of enemies was a risky act. Reviving someone while being shot at was nearly a suicide. 

That doesn't make the game more co-op, it just makes the game harder. It doesn't matter how hard you make the game, people are still going to run off looking for the highest kill count. Trying to force cooperation by killing players if they don't play the precise narrow way you want them to doesn't foster cooperation. It fosters resentment. When failure feels unfair, players look for someone to blame. If they're convinced that the failure was "team play," they'll blame each other. "You didn't bring a healer! You suck at tanking! You weren't killing fast enough! I lost because of YOU!" I think it's safe to say that 30 years of MMOs attempting to force team play and ultimately failing is reason enough to conclude that this view on game design does not work as advertised.

 

49 minutes ago, Xikto said:

SIMPLE! design around the issue, give OPTIONAL objectives for people to do, this way they can do the same mission with the same team each having something to do and at the end getting more rewards than they would doing it solo!

In a nutshell - yes, this. Proper objective design is key to cooperation. Players need something to do beyond "sit in a room and kill stuff." Aint' a lot of team play in that. You could give players multiple optional secondary objectives to pursue. That way some can focus on progressing the mission while others look for extra loot or collectables or special monsters, etc. Or else, you can present people with multiple primary objectives which COULD be done simultaneously but could also equally be done in sequence. That way the team can split up and try to multi-task at the risk of failing objectives, or else focus on one at a time at the cost of taking longer.

Payday 2 did this pretty well, back in the day. Most missions (the good ones, anyway) offered players bonus loot in addition to the main objective. Players would need to fan out and find it, then pile it somewhere secure and guard it until it could be stowed in the escape vehicle. They also offer hostages - a sort of resource players could use to delay assault waves and trade for defeated team-mates. Several missions also feature multiple simultaneous objectives that players can fan out and look for.

The Golden Grin casino remains my favourite example of this. Players need to find three laptops - the first hidden in one of several lockers which need lockpicking or cutting, one inside a locked safe which needs drilling, one located somewhere around the very large open casino floor. There's also skylight which needs to be open. There's also a set of fireworks which need to be found, placed and lit. While there's a strict order to these (Laptops -> Explosives -> Skylight -> Fireworks) there's absolutely no harm in doing them out of order. In fact, it's better that way, because opening the skylight early and setting off the fireworks early ensures the blimp with the vault drill is in place as soon as it's needed. Doing them in sequence introduces a 2-minute or so wait between objectives.

Point being, it's fairly easy to convince people to cooperate when there's anything for the additional players to actually DO, beyond piling on more DPS, EHP and healing into the team. When objectives can benefit from the presence of more than one thinking human being at a time, cooperation naturally follows. Weakening players is not the answer. Requiring one player to prop a door open is not the answer. Smarter, more elaborate mission design is.

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1 hour ago, Xikto said:

OPTIONAL objectives for people to do, this way they can do the same mission with the same team each having something to do and at the end getting more rewards than they would doing it solo!

This only creates the possibility for conflict of interest within Squads in public matchmaking.

What happens when three players in the Squad have no interest in the rewards from the optional component of the mission, and only want the drops from the main objective? They will speed-run the mission, while the other guy detours to do the side objective. What's next?

If starting the side-ojective mean no-one Extracts 'til it's done (succeed or fail), the three at Extraction have to wait for the other player to finish the optional stuff before they can extract, hindering their farming efficiency. That wouldn't go down well!

Alternatively, it could be designed so the three at extraction force extraction for the whole team 'cos main objective completed. That would suck for the other guy, getting auto-extracted before they complete the side objective. Not good either.

Or the three players at Extraction could leave with their spoils, and the player who's started the side objective be left to finish what they started alone and Extract separately. That doesn't sound like co-op to me, before even considering the potential for a host migration to rear its ugly head and rob the player left behind of everything gained in the mission.

I don't see additional optional objectives as any solution to the perceived issue, but I do see them creating new opportunities for inconvenience and toxicity.

Edited by OmegaVoid
typo. And a couple of oopsies.
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hace 4 horas, (PSN)Ragology dijo:

No. I dont want to feel like I cant do a mission because no one brought a healer or defense based warframe. 

And this is why Raids should be reworked with a microscope or never come back, people often forget that a great part of the playerbase preffer to play in solo because [Personal Reasons], that is why railjack changed so much from that tennocon to this day. I mean if we are complaining about the refine system how would the game would be now if the power system came to be a thing?

Edited by VoidArkhangel
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10 hours ago, (PSN)Ragology said:

No. I dont want to feel like I cant do a mission because no one brought a healer or defense based warframe. 

That’s a match making issue.  Also can be a not having a dedicated server issue. But DE would rather rely on P2P connectivity. 

Edited by (XBOX)YoungGunn82
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2 hours ago, (XBOX)YoungGunn82 said:

That’s a match making issue.

And for as long as it's possible to start a mission in public matchmaking and find no-one else is playing that Node right now, it's one that needs to be taken into consideration.

Recruit chat cannot be guaranteed to help.

And "Got no friends online right now? **** you, then" is IMHO probably not the right direction for mission design to go in.

Edited by OmegaVoid
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I agree to some extent: it's not rare anymore for players to practically ignore one another when playing together in missions, and some players don't even really move to revive others unless they're right next to them. We could certainly do with more interaction between players. However, at the same time, I don't think that player cooperation ought to be made necessary, because otherwise we get stuff like Railjack, or even missions like Sortie Spy where if one fails to carry their weight, they sink their whole team. The flipside to our current state of independence from one another is that usually, the worst thing a player can do is just slow the others down at extraction, and otherwise anyone else can advance the mission and do fine. This I think is a key strength for a game that relies heavily on pub teams, where players may differ vastly in power and skill.

One aspect of the game's design that I think hasn't helped the situation, however, is recent warframe design: many warframes lately have been designed with "selfish" kits, which not only tend to be entirely self-sufficient, but also tend to not have many hooks to interact with others either. Self-sufficiency is fine, but not even being able to meaningfully interact with other players through one's kit is an issue, because that's what causes players to ignore one another. Frames like Wukong, Gauss, and Revenant have nothing they can really do to help other players (outside of certain augments), so they don't. Meanwhile, Wisp bucks the trend by being a frame that manages to be self-sufficient, but that also contributes significantly to her team through her motes. When a Wisp is on your team, you know it and feel it, because you've probably got her buffs on you. By contrast, often the only time you'll notice a Wukong is when you catch his Celestial Twin loafing about somewhere.

This isn't to say every warframe should be about giving each other utility, because utility isn't the only way of contributing: Nidus, for example, can be a great help to his team by bunching enemies together with Larva, and even Saryn can soften enemies up with Corrosive and Viral stacks when she isn't obliterating them single-handedly. Essentially, all a warframe needs to do to interact with another is be able to meaningfully alter the situation other players are in, whether by giving them beneficial utility, or affecting enemies through debuffs and crowd control. Killing enemies alone doesn't achieve that, because killing an enemy just removes possible interaction with said enemy (unless you're Nekros), and too much killing from one frame just prevents everyone else from even playing the game properly.

TL;DR: We often don't interact because our warframe abilities give us no way of meaningfully interacting with one another. Giving every warframe at least one unique team contribution somewhere in their kit in the form of impactful utility, debuffs, or crowd control (or a combination of those) would help significantly towards making players feel like they're actually interacting with one another, even if in practice the interaction is only incidental.

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2 hours ago, OmegaVoid said:

And for as long as it's possible to start a mission in public matchmaking and find no-one else is playing that Node right now, it's one that needs to be taken into consideration.

Recruit chat cannot be guaranteed to help.

And "Got no friends online right now? **** you, then" is IMHO probably not the right to direction for mission design to go in.

Yes. Recruiting chat is awful. Especially if someone wanted to find a Rad group for an older relic. Good luck. Matchmaking is a big problem. 

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8 hours ago, (PSN)Ragology said:

No. I dont want to feel like I cant do a mission because no one brought a healer or defense based warframe. 

JV was very close to being play-whatever-you-want. At best a squad only needed two frames: Trinity and Nekros. If they make future trials better than JV, it may be possible to play whatever you want especially with the tools we have now.

Edited by NekroArts
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The harder Steel Path modes reward some degree of cooperation for all but the most twinked out builds, and frames that are designed heavily with solo in mind.

This is also part of why nobody does Steel Path. Like it or not, the Warframe playerbase has chosen a more lone wolf sort of playstyle. I think it's just the way a game about space ninjas is doomed to lean.

With that said, the way that the open world content functions generally causes people to work together, too. I think I know a way to fix this: Make all modes feature a mobile/moving, but localized objective that brings people together, but doesn't force them to babysit each other.

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I mean this game has never been co-op not In the traditional sense anyway. Multiplayer sure, but there has never been any intentional synergy between frames. Every frame is it’s own little island. So I don’t understand when OP says “again”. Been around since 2014. 

Edited by (XBOX)YoungGunn82
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I still play co-op. With my friends. We have group roles, tactics, formations, we plan out who's doing what damage, who might need to scrub, carry or be carried. It's awesome fun!

That said, we do it on psn voice chat, because warframe voice chat can't carry a full sentence to save it's life so if we get a random joining they're left out in the cold anyway. We don't set ourselves to public half of the time because we are tired of being dragged into relic missions without a relic because inexperienced players followed the on screen instructions (this has been a problem for YEARS!) or failing a bounty when we are just trying to catch a fish or mine some ore.

There is also a lot less sharing of builds and the main reason that I've heard is players don't want their epic builds getting nerfed because to many players are using it.

So yeah, some of the co-op drop if can be laid at the feet of players as suggested above - But by no means can all of it be put there. The Devs have to take their share of the blame because it is in part it's their actions that's doing it too.

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17 hours ago, (PSN)Ragology said:

No. I dont want to feel like I cant do a mission because no one brought a healer or defense based warframe.

There are 4 people in the group. 2 people will be DPS in any case. DPS is a more popular role statistically, so in any case, you will get 2 - 3 players in a group who perform their role not only because the system requires it. I do not know what you are afraid of, in many games this is not a problem. In any case, if the warframe is going to be a hard co-op, we'll need bots for solo players. And the bots will perform those roles that you don't want to play anyway. That is, there is a free slot for a certain role in your group, so there is a bot that performs this role. 

And of course, no one prevents you from making an effort to play 4 DPS. I don't think there should be hard limits for this, it should be in the group setup.

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17 hours ago, Dante said:

In my opinion it's because of how powerful the players have become. The game felt cooperative the most back when we had 4 revives per warframe, resetting every day. Enemies were also deadly at 30-40 level. Rushing through a crowd of enemies was a risky act. Reviving someone while being shot at was nearly a suicide. 

That's when we were most united. Enemies were tough - teammates were always nearby to assist. You get downed - the squad rushes to you and helps you at any costs, without exceptions, and nobody was left behind. You had to crawl to cover to make it easier for your teammates to revive you. Everyone was covering each other. 

Now the difference in power is so large we can just go afk while being under enemy fire at any mid-to-high level mission. The usual star chart missions feel like shooting ranges, maybe that's why i always rush them. The huge variery of our abilities render enemies completely useless. Even if you get downed, nowadays the solution to that for most people is hold X to die instead. And unless you are doing endurance runs, there is no danger, just strolls from spawn to extraction.

TL;DR: The more powerful we become, the less help is needed to defeat our enemies. And because the range of our power is quite wide, some players just plow through hordes of enemies on their way to extraction while others are left behind as dead weight, to collect loot and possibly to die alone without any support.

The issue isn't "power", it's being able to do everything at once. You don't need allies when you can sustain yourself, cc enemies, and deal damage. Even if our damage was dropped drastically, there would still be no real co-op. Cooperation and playing multiplayer aren't really the same thing. This is why DE just keeps releasing DPS Warframes, and even when they lean on the "support" side, they still have to either do damage, or offer a dps boost specifically.

Either way, it's pretty clear, as shown by an above response, they don't want to rely on others for anything. This is why Warframe's co-op is always going to be something silly like standing somewhere specific, clicking on an objective at the same time or doing two different objectives on essentially different maps at the same time like Railjack.

 

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The co-op part was actually what made the first teaser for Railjack so appealing. You had a pilot, a gunner, a ground-runner and a coordinator, giving everyone a role and everyone had something to do. 

It's as has been said: Everyone does everything, which turns the game from co-op into just 'playing together'. It's a similar issue to what Guild Wars 2 had with their 'All classes can do everything' approach where party dynamics were entirely absent, or at least they were when I played it. It'd really help if we had missions that have multiple different tasks running simultaneously. If there was some procedurally generated puzzle, that could be great to pair with defence, one player defending the person that's solving the puzzle, for example.

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On 2021-02-28 at 12:20 AM, (XBOX)YoungGunn82 said:

That’s a match making issue.

No amount of "matchmaking" is going to make my solo run work without a healer, if the game is re-designed to require one. As I said before - forcing team play is never a good idea. In fact, I'll go one further - assuming a full team is never a good idea, either. Even if you want to snob solo players, you still have to account for those of us playing on incomplete teams with just one other person. Not to mention, public matchmaking only affects public matches. Some of us prefer to play in private, invite-only lobbies with friends and nobody else. Matchmaking is not a solution.

 

7 minutes ago, Colyeses said:

The co-op part was actually what made the first teaser for Railjack so appealing. You had a pilot, a gunner, a ground-runner and a coordinator, giving everyone a role and everyone had something to do. 

You say "appealing," I say "concerning." I personally knew from the word GO that DE were going to have to strip a majority of their artificially enforced team-play mechanics out of Railjack before the TennoCon 2019 trailer was even over. And they did - the storage packing and power management minigames got taken out. More of them got simplified or taken out with Railjack Revised, and I predict we'll see more still removed or streamlined with Railjack 3.0. The simple fact of the matter is that the sort of gameplay they tried to sell during TennoCon 2019 might work for Guns of Icarus, but it does not fit Warframe's existing playerbase. Very, very soon after release, the flaws of that design came to the forefront. Everyone wanted to fly the ship and shoot the guns, next to nobody wanted to play minigames while staring at the interior walls so that the pilot could actually play the game. There were some (myself among them, I played Engineer more than anything else), but most people would just jump out in their Archwings the moment they found the Helm occupied. They still do.

While I might slightly exaggerate, nobody wants to Warframe Bejewelled waiting for something to happen when they could be boarding enemy Crew Ships or clearing Points of Interest, when they don't get to fly the Railjack itself. Making the on-board minigames more elaborate and failing the mission when the crew doesn't play them enough isn't going to help. I was there, I saw it first-hand. All it did was cause strife between players because nobody ever wanted to "do chores," so it consistently fell to those of us who just wanted to be team players.

I've been playing MMOs for over 15 years now. I've yet to see a "team roles" system which causes more good than harm. The moment you mandate specific roles, it simply enables players who underperform or sandbag to fail missions for the entire team. I don't see the benefit to that. You can always get together with your mates and pick roles for each other if you want. Expecting this out of random pubbies, though? That simply doesn't happen. It's why a majority of "enforced teamplay" systems slowly migrate towards a "soloable with team play" design over time.

 

22 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

TL;DR: We often don't interact because our warframe abilities give us no way of meaningfully interacting with one another. Giving every warframe at least one unique team contribution somewhere in their kit in the form of impactful utility, debuffs, or crowd control (or a combination of those) would help significantly towards making players feel like they're actually interacting with one another, even if in practice the interaction is only incidental.

Hello :) I agree with the broad-strokes points here. If you want to make the game more co-op centric, it's more than sufficient to just ALLOW players to cooperate. There's no need to MANDATE it. All the latter accomplishes is to introduce additional failure states. With that said, I'm not sure that Warframe-specific synergies are the best way to get us to more team play, if for no reason other than such synergies would become too kit-dependent. Ideally, we want to avoid "We need a healer!"

This is why I proposed fostering teamplay with objectives, instead. Warframe already barely gives us any reason to stick together like a L4D team, so why not let players split up across the map and cover more ground? Get rid of Affinity Range, implement pick-up sharing and you're already half-way there. This way, one player can work on the objective while the others scour the map for pick-ups and collectables. Railjack already does this. Two players stay with the Railjack and fight, the other two fan out and clear the Points of Interest, then proceed to go "mining" debris fields. Shared pick-ups and infinite sharing range are a wondrous thing in that game mode.

ALLOW players to cooperate and they will - more often than not. FORCE players to cooperate and they'll mostly just trash-talk or blame each other.

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